Estimating Germanic Y-DNA in Iberia

[Pedro Gomes]

If you knew a little of genetic studies you would realize people
from Porto and Braga are genetically more germanic than most of central Europe.
You dont read what I tell you to, and you dont know about the atlantic
model haplotype. You are a just an italian with an inferiority complex.
The word to describe your attitude would be ignorant, you reffuse to
learn.I am over 5´11, blue eyed and I am from that region, my grandma
had ash-blond hair. Tell me how on earth are we distant from the northern
europeans. Some germans look less german than myself.

[Angela]

I am truly overwhelmed by the number of tall, blonde Nordics in that town. Oh, and I won't stop you from posting unsupported beliefs, but one more insult directed at me or any other poster or any ethnic group whatsoever and you'll get an infraction. Calling people dumb qualifies. They can add up quickly. Ask some of your friends.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sF-FgrXxmyc

[Pedro Gomes]

The only insulteous person, were you.You try to rewrite the history of my region against scientific work. If this forum is about that,
this may be my last post.
See that you end up agreeing that we are nordic.

[Angela]

The only insulteous person, were you.You try to rewrite the history of my region against scientific work. If this forum is about that,
this may be my last post.
See that you end up agreeing that we are nordic.

Now that would be heart breaking.

As I said, when you have scientific data be sure to share it. After all, genotype does not necessarily equal phenotype. In the meantime, as you can see, they have very nice festivals in the Porto and Braga area. I had a great time there. You should pay a visit and connect with your roots.

[Degredado]

I refuse to believe this Pedro fellow is being 100% serious. Surely this is someone pretending to be Portuguese and trying to give the Portuguese people a bad name on this website?

Of course the Suevi left their mark in N. Portugal/Galicia, essentially in a bunch of personal names, some vocabulary, the "sh" sound for the letter S before consonants (as in German), which is unique among Romance languages, the economic model of small, independent rural properties, and the very peculiar Portuguese names for the weekdays (which were invented by Suebi bishops, if I remember correctly).

But I think the deeper question is: what is behind this Germanic/Viking fetish that so many Southern Europeans on this forum seem to have? I emphasize "this forum", because in real life, I've never met any Portuguese, Italians or Spaniards displaying this obsession. At the end of the day, the Suevi genetic legacy must realistically be no larger than that of other invaders, i.e. Romans, Moors etc.

[Angela]

I refuse to believe this Pedro fellow is being 100% serious. Surely this is someone pretending to be Portuguese and trying to give the Portuguese people a bad name on this website?

Of course the Suevi left their mark in N. Portugal/Galicia, essentially in a bunch of personal names, some vocabulary, the "sh" sound for the letter S before consonants (as in German), which is unique among Romance languages, the economic model of small, independent rural properties, and the very peculiar Portuguese names for the weekdays (which were invented by Suebi bishops, if I remember correctly).

But I think the deeper question is: what is behind this Germanic/Viking fetish that so many Southern Europeans on this forum seem to have? I emphasize "this forum", because in real life, I've never met any Portuguese, Italians or Spaniards displaying this obsession. At the end of the day, the Suevi genetic legacy must realistically be no larger than that of other invaders, i.e. Romans, Moors etc.

I hope you're not including me in that group? Sometimes I feel like I'm Alice after she's fallen down the rabbit hole.

Not that only some bizarre sub-group of southern Europeans have been infected. Nordicism is sort of an equal opportunity disorder. Still, if the people espousing it are northern Europeans it makes a modicum of sense even if it's intellectually and morally bankrupt.

More than once I've been tempted to find myself another intellectual hobby. I mean, how much can one really read about the Indo-Europeans, especially when it comes with all this associated claptrap? At least here we insist on actual data, and we mix it up a bit in terms of interests both genetic and in terms of the broader European context, as you'll find if you stick around.

[Degredado]

I hope you're not including me in that group? Sometimes I feel like I'm Alice after she's fallen down the rabbit hole.

Not that only some bizarre sub-group of southern Europeans have been infected. Nordicism is sort of an equal opportunity disorder. Still, if the people espousing it are northern Europeans it makes a modicum of sense even if it's intellectually and morally bankrupt.

More than once I've been tempted to find myself another intellectual hobby. I mean, how much can one really read about the Indo-Europeans, especially when it comes with all this associated claptrap? At least here we insist on actual data, and we mix it up a bit in terms of interests both genetic and in terms of the broader European context, as you'll find if you stick around.

Angela, you're most definitely not a part of that group. I never see you attaching or conditioning your Italian pride to being Germanic/Viking/Celtic etc. On the contrary, I always see you trying to put some sense into these Southern nordicists' heads, but it doesn't seem to have much effect.

[suebiking]

Well let's just say the suebi and vikings left a kind of big print in the area culture wise and it is fairly normal that people with a kind of germano-celtic culture want to be that same way in dna.It is just ordinary, sincerely I am from a family with a lot of germanic attributes, though I do not believe I will be that much germanic in genetics (autosomal dna), about what angela said I would never say it is a lie, portuguese are a mixture of many peoples over the years and some darker phenotypes happen sometimes, for example I have a cousin, her mother has blonde hair and is very white, her father is a little darker and she when tanned could be confused with a north african for example and in both sides of her family noone looks even a bit close to her. About the people looking germanic, I would say it is about 10-20% of the population of this area that could pass unnoticed in germany or austria, actually I have an austrian friend from tyrol near innsbruck and he looks like my uncle.
About the comments made on this forum it is no way possible that north portugal will be as germanic as germany or austria, we all know that the source of the germanic peoples will always be the place with more germanic people.

[suebiking]

As a conclusion to my later post I would had that I am not even a little nordicist nor I will ever be, it is more a question a curiosity that I search these kind of matters and in my point of view it is very impolite to say to someone that I am superior because of my genetic background. Yes it is more than true that there are more people in north portugal with germanic caratheristics but not even close to other european countries. If I had to describe myself by the common terms of european genetics I would be neither nordic nor alpine nor mediterranean nor dinaric. I would say I am portuguese a short fellow with light skin and a kind of germanic look with green eyes ,but germanic, I don't think so if I had to make an estimate and cuting out small people movements I would say I probably descend from the celts and the peoples that they overtook like 90% the rest I would leave to germanic and even who knows berber countributions. And no the portuguese are not racists, we have our problems mainly with gypsies but not with anyone else.

[Fire Haired14]

If you knew a little of genetic studies you would realize people
from Porto and Braga are genetically more germanic than most of central Europe.

If you think people from your region have a lot of Germanic ancestry take a DNA test. It'll tell you if you have a lot of Germanic ancestry. It'd be really interesting if your region of Portugal are descended from Goths.

I am over 5´11, blue eyed and I am from that region, my grandma
had ash-blond hair. Tell me how on earth are we distant from the northern
europeans. Some germans look less german than myself.

There's many differnt physical appearances in ethnic groups. Two differnt people from the same town can look completely differnt. And two people from differnt ethnic groups can look identical to each other. There isn't a single look for every group of people in the world. Your family having pigmentation traits most popular in North Europe doesn't mean you have ancestry from there.

I found this interesting. It's examples of Scandinavians with Mediterranean-type pigmentation: Dark Scandinavians/Northern Germanics. All of a sudden they look South European. A similar thing might be going in your family.

[Angela]

Angela, you're most definitely not a part of that group. I never see you attaching or conditioning your Italian pride to being Germanic/Viking/Celtic etc. On the contrary, I always see you trying to put some sense into these Southern nordicists' heads, but it doesn't seem to have much effect.

Degredado, if someone can look at the people in that video and think that they look Germanic, then they're obviously not operating from a place of reason or science. In fact, they must be blind.

One can't debate an illusion, or, more like, a delusion. It's something like charging windmills, yes?

[Twilight]

Well let's just say the suebi and vikings left a kind of big print in the area culture wise and it is fairly normal that people with a kind of germano-celtic culture want to be that same way in dna.It is just ordinary, sincerely I am from a family with a lot of germanic attributes, though I do not believe I will be that much germanic in genetics (autosomal dna), about what angela said I would never say it is a lie, portuguese are a mixture of many peoples over the years and some darker phenotypes happen sometimes, for example I have a cousin, her mother has blonde hair and is very white, her father is a little darker and she when tanned could be confused with a north african for example and in both sides of her family noone looks even a bit close to her. About the people looking germanic, I would say it is about 10-20% of the population of this area that could pass unnoticed in germany or austria, actually I have an austrian friend from tyrol near innsbruck and he looks like my uncle.
About the comments made on this forum it is no way possible that north portugal will be as germanic as germany or austria, we all know that the source of the germanic peoples will always be the place with more germanic people.

Whoa, did I miss something.
This could go in both ways, first of most what he said, also I'd also like to add that some neiborhoods in America have places like Chinatown and Japantown, kind of like cultural pockets; with Tradition passed down for generations even after the Germanic admixture gets diluted. Or perhaps maybe Portugal has some Norsetown or Suebitown neiborhoods yet to be discovered; however like I said we need more detailed samples. It's too early to tell.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chin...trict,_Seattle

[Angela]

Whoa, did I miss something. What he said, also I'd also like to add that some neiborhoods in America have places like Chinatown and Japantown, kind of like cultural pockets. Perhaps Portugal has some Norsetown or Suebitown neiborhoods yet to be discovered; however like I said we need more detailed samples.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chin...trict,_Seattle

Oh, for goodness sakes'. The Suebian "cultural", "ethnic" pocket of Germanic looking people he pointed to is this specific town. That's why I chose a video from there and not just generally from Porto or Braga. They look Germanic to you? There are lots more clips on youtube of the celebrations where locals would be participating, versus tourists at the beach. The rest of the towns in the area are just the same. I've actually been there, unlike all these internet experts, and I have friends from there, friends to whom I'd never reveal the bizarre self hatred that some of their compatriots express. It's disgraceful.

This is cloud cuckoo land. What's wrong with the way they look anyway? Why would someone with roots from there want to misrepresent them? Next time, others so inclined should pick some totally isolated, unknown village whose people have never been filmed or photographed. That's the only way to get away with this kind of thing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sF-FgrXxmyc

[Twilight]

Oh, for goodness sakes'. The Suebian "cultural", "ethnic" pocket of Germanic looking people he pointed to is this specific town. That's why I chose a video from there and not just generally from Porto or Braga. They look Germanic to you? There are lots more clips on youtube of the celebrations where locals would be participating, versus tourists at the beach. The rest of the towns in the area are just the same.

This is cloud cuckoo land. What's wrong with the way they look anyway? Why would someone with roots from there want to misrepresent them?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sF-FgrXxmyc

its not coco land to wait for more data. I refuse to jump to conclusions at this point with all do respect. Just because a certain person looks a certain way doesn't mean they like watermelons. There are still stuff we don't know yet.

[Angela]

its not coco land to wait for more data. I refuse to jump to conclusions at this point with all do respect. Just because a certain person looks a certain way doesn't mean they like watermelons. There are still stuff we don't know yet.

With all due respect to you, this person maintained in numerous posts that the people in this specific town not only have much higher levels of "Germanic" y dna than has been reported, but that they look "Germanic", more "Germanic" than people in central Europe. He has no proof of the first and the second is manifestly ridiculous, as anyone who has seen these people, either in photos or film, would know.

If someone wants to say that they "believe" that there has been a large autosomal impact by "Suebi" or other Germanic peoples on the specific area of Porto and Braga, and that they think future tests will show that, they're welcome to do so. As I specifically stated upthread, genotype is not always phenotype. The claims about the physical appearance of these people are something else again, and clearly false.

[Twilight]

With all due respect to you, this person maintained in numerous posts that the people in this specific town not only have much higher levels of "Germanic" y dna than has been reported, but that they look "Germanic", more "Germanic" than people in central Europe. He has no proof of the first and the second is manifestly ridiculous, as anyone who has seen these people, either in photos or film, would know.

If someone wants to say that they "believe" that there has been a large autosomal impact by "Suebi" or other Germanic peoples on the specific area of Porto and Braga, and that they think future tests will show that, they're welcome to do so. As I specifically stated upthread, genotype is not always phenotype. The claims about the physical appearance of these people are something else again, and clearly false.

I guess so, I agree with you. Appearances are the least reliable indicator of a person. I'm not mad at all, just that ancient history is full of surprises is all.:) Again, I'm not jumping to conclusions. I do understand that I just walked into a fight and I apologize.

[Angela]

I guess so, I agree with you. Appearances are the least reliable indicator of a person. I'm not mad at all, just that ancient history is full of surprises is all.:) Again, I'm not jumping to conclusions. I do understand that I just walked into a fight and I apologize.

There's no need, and it's not a fight. :)

It's just that if you're going to post things here you have to support them with data. If you don't have the data, don't expect other people to just accept it, especially if the data we do have runs contrary to what you are proposing.

Most importantly, don't misrepresent things, even if it's just the physical appearance of people in certain towns. As I said, if people want to get away with that kind of misrepresentation they'd better make sure it's a town no one has ever visited, photographed or filmed.

[Pedro Gomes]

I am deleting my account in this forum.
None seem to care to study or learn
the basic history of Portugal. Angela
does not even bothers herself to google
data about Povoa de Varzim. I am not a lecturer.
For that job I would like to be paid. Telling
the truth of what I learnt in my history classes
is considered nordicism. If it is data that my
affirmations lack, go and search it. Since Angela
is more concerned on having fun in festivals, and
drinking shots, I am going to paste some information.
There are a couple of genetic studies,look for et Beleza,
pointing I haplogroup in Braga of ~18%. Find a history book
of Portugal, and READ IT REALLY. Check this text on wikipedia
which contains the precious data of Ramalho Ortigão a great
writer about Poveiros. Due to the practice of endogamy and the caste system, Póvoa's fishing community maintained local ethnic characteristics. Anthropological and cultural data indicate Nordic fishermen settling during the period of the coast's resettlement.^[13] In As Praias de Portugal (Beaches of Portugal, 1876), Ramalho ortigão wrote that the Povoan fishermen were a "race" in the Portuguese coast; entirely different from the Mediterranean type of Ovar and Olhão, Poveiro is of "Saxon" type. On the other hand, the man from the interior was a farmer with Galician character (Paleo and Nordid-Atlantid). In a 1908 research, anthropologist Fonseca Cardoso considered that Poveiros were the result of a mixture of Phoenicians, Teutons, Jews and, mostly, Normans.^[41] In the book The Races of Europe (1938), Poveiros were distinguished by having a greater than usual degree of blondism, broad faces of unknown origin, and broad jaws.^[42]
Poveiros have migrated to other places and this attenuated the population growth. One should notice that the Poveiros tended to create their own associations abroad, there are Casa dos Poveiros (Poveiros House) in Brazil (Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo), Germiston in South Africa and Toronto in Canada. In Rio de Janeiro, the community was known by not wanting other peoples of other origins, including Portuguese born in other regions, within their community. In 1920, many Poveiros emigrated in Brazil returned, as many refused to lose Portuguese nationality.^[43] The governor of Angola, with an ambition to develop fisheries, suggested the creation of a Povoan colony in Porto Alexandre. Due to fisher classes affairs, the fisher areas of Vila do Conde, Esposende and Matosinhos have strong Povoan cultural influence and half of the population of Vila do Conde and Matosinhos are of Povoan descent.^[44]
Póvoa de Varzim is an ethno-cultural entity.^[1] Until the beginning of the 20th century, the communities of Póvoa de Varzim were marked by endogamy, exclusiveness and local identity features with several centuries.^[2]
Due to endogamy and a caste system, the fisher community of Póvoa de Varzim kept particular ethnic features. Povoan fishermen, supported by 19th century scientific theories, believed they were a separate race, named "Raça Poveira" (Povoan Race). Anthropological and cultural data indicate the colonization of Nordic fishermen during the period of the coast's resettling. Since the 19th century, the visible ethnic differences when comparing with the surrounding people, led to different theories over the origin of the population: Suebi, Prussians, Teutons, Normans and even Phoenicians. In the book The Races of Europe (1939), Povoans were considered to be slightly blonder than average, with wide faces of unknown origin and robust cheeks.^[3] In a research published in O Poveiro (1908), using 19th century scientific methodology, the anthropologist Fonseca Cardoso considered that an anthropological element, most noticeably the aquiline nose, was of semitic-Phoenician origin. He considered that Povoans were the result of a mixture of Phoenicians, Teutons, Jews and, mostly, Normans.^[4]
Ramalho Ortigão when he wrote about Póvoa in the book "As Praias de Portugal" (1876), The Beaches of Portugal, stated that the main curiosity of Póvoa was the Povoan fishermen, that was a special "race" in the Portuguese coastline; completely different from the Mediterranean type typical of Ovar and Olhão, Povoans are of "Saxon" type: they are "fair-haired, clear eyes, wide shoulders, athletic chest, herculean legs and arms, round and strong faces."^[5] More recently, Óscar Fangueiro noticed that the Nordic influence could have happened during the late Middle Ages when Portugal built diplomatic ties with Denmark.^[6]

Matrix of Siglas Poveiras.

Main article: Siglas poveiras
Siglas Poveiras are a form of 'proto-writing system'; these were used as a rudimentary visual communication system, and are thought to derive from Viking settlers that brought the writing system known as bomärken from Scandinavia. The siglas are used as a signature to sign belongings.

[Pedro Gomes]

Fire head 14. See now if it just happens that my family happens to be exceptional blond with no Germanic characteristics. Angela you should be banned. If you dont understand now your IQ IS TOO LOW.
You can say bullshit about other countries and other regions
but when you say about my region I just guarantee to everybody
YOU ARE SAYING BULLSHIT. WELCOME TO PORTO!!!!

[suebiking]

As a fellow portuguese I think you should go easy on people. Nothing will be accomplished by throwing things at peoples faces. One thing is the the peoples of north portugal are culturally germanic which is debatable because truly germanic celebrations only occur in porto braga and as mensioned povoa do varzim, but this forum is about genetics and that is a much more complicated matter. for instants I do not believe that the romans left a big genetic presence in iberia but culturally their had such a big impact the same can be said for the moors in andalusia and south portugal. You should as I do patiently wait for genetic research to be made in people from the areas where the suebi and vikings settled or take a test yourself as I'll do. Then and only then can you claime something about genetics. Another very important thing, almost everyone in this forum is very polite and comprehensible and so you don't need to pick them because altough I am member for only a couple of months I've been here in awhile and most people in here including angela and maciamo are imparcial, they only interpret the studies and don't take conclusions in their own benefit. So in conclusion as a compatriot I ask stop that irracional discussion, I understand that you as me feel a little igored by most genetic studies but it isn't by shouting in everyones faces that you'll get what you want so relax don't take comments personally and enjoy the forum because there much more interesting gentics peculiarities that you can investigate together with your forum colleagues.
If you are really leaving the forum good luck with the search for the proof of a great germanic impact in north portugal but remember the truth is the truth and if what you want is not what you find at least it was worth the journey.

[Fire Haired14]

Fire head 14. See now if it just happens that my family happens to be exceptional blond with no Germanic characteristics. Angela you should be banned. If you dont understand now your IQ IS TOO LOW.
You can say bullshit about other countries and other regions
but when you say about my region I just guarantee to everybody
YOU ARE SAYING BULLSHIT. WELCOME TO PORTO!!!!

I don't see what Angela has done wrong besides maybe expressing anger. But you are overreacting to her anger. She said herself that she considers the possibility of significant Germanic ancestry in your town. She doubts it, but she still considers the possibility you are right.

I have not seen evidence that you're a bad person and raciest. I think you notice Northern-features in your family and town and reasonable suspect Germanic ancestry because Germanic people have lived in Portugal. That's good thinking. You could be right. I suggest that you order a test from 23andme or FTDNA. It will resolve whether you have significant Germanic ancestry or not.

[Angela]

@Pedro,
There are rules on this forum. You can debate all you like here. You can even make claims totally unsupported by data. Other people can show that your data doesn't exist, or you're misinterpreting it. That's the way that rational debate is conducted.

What you can't do is make up data or deliberately falsify data points.

You also can't call people names or attack them for pointing out the holes in your argument. The penalties are even greater if the person you attack is a team member. It has to be that way or there would be chaos.

You should have read the rules. I could have banned you, but you sound rather young so I am giving you some lee-way here. Each infraction for insulting a team member is four points. You now have two. When it gets to ten points total it results in an automatic ban. So, if you want to keep posting here, please keep a civil tongue in your head, and follow the rules, just like everybody else.

None of this is personal. You just can't expect to come on here posting about the genetics of a certain group of people with no demonstrable genetic proof for your claims and expect people not to notice or point it out. Indeed, the genetic data we currently have is exactly the opposite of what you claim. As others have pointed out to you, it is true, of course, that culture is different from genetics. I have my doubts as to how "Germanic" Portuguese culture is, but the thread title refers to genetics and that is the focus of this discussion.

Be that as it may, as I said if such genetic information becomes available please share it with us. We're trying to learn here, or at least I am, not score points.

@Fire-Haired,
My dear Fire-Haired, exasperation is not anger. There's a difference. :)

[Twilight]

We've given you the Benifit of the doubt, you make a good point and these pockets are worth looking into but we are not that detailed enough to study City/town DNA or weather there is a "percentage border" so fine at all. Just to reiterate, if you want to find synificant Germanic ancestry Ancestrydna,Ftdna and 23andme are the way to go.

I could be called Coco, I could be called whatever. But that doesn't change the fact that I'm trying to learn and understand genetics as well as the rest of us.

You Pedro have shown us a possible glimpse of the next frontier of genetics, thank you for bringing this to our attention although genetic companies are a little too pixelated in tech to answer or debunk your claim at this point.

[Angela]

@Twilight,
I seem to have struck a nerve. Living in cloud cuckoo land just means that a person doesn't see things as they really are, just in case you didn't know, and it referred to the claim that the people of that town look more Germanic than do central Europeans. It did not refer to anything you yourself said. If it came across as anything other than that, I do apologize.

[Twilight]

@Twilight,
I seem to have struck a nerve. Living in cloud cuckoo land just means that a person doesn't see things as they really are, just in case you didn't know, and it referred to the claim that the people of that town look more Germanic than do central Europeans. It did not refer to anything you yourself said. If it came across as anything other than that, I do apologize.

Its cool its not you, just been getting attacked lately; although this forum drama did set me off. Attacking others for questioning or creating hypothesis scenarios even with sources seems to be the norm for some places, perhaps this drama was a means of self defense; as counterintuitive as it is. The moderator team has done a wonderful job here and your Genetics tab is the info I can trust most confidently. I see great potential and if we can keep this up, supiority arguments could easily be rendered coco. :)

These kinds of attacks are usually my motivation for being here in a nut shell. Without DNA testing I would've overlooked so many cultures in European history and their ancient colonies. There is a lot of history we can learn just from our own cheeks but it's going to take time.