Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 58

Thread: New map of R1b-DF27 (SRY2627 + M153)

  1. #26
    Junior Member Achievements:
    7 days registered
    IberoAtlantid's Avatar
    Join Date
    09-12-14
    Posts
    5
    Points
    100
    Level
    1
    Points: 100, Level: 1
    Level completed: 50%, Points required for next Level: 50
    Overall activity: 8.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celtiberian+Goth
    Country: Spain



    This map says that great part of Andalusia was restocked with Catalans and Basques, for example, I have 2/16 Basques surnames and 2/16 Catalan Surnames .

  2. #27
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second ClassVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Twilight's Avatar
    Join Date
    29-06-12
    Location
    Seattle, Washington
    Age
    26
    Posts
    894
    Points
    13,065
    Level
    34
    Points: 13,065, Level: 34
    Level completed: 60%, Points required for next Level: 285
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-U152-Z56-BY3957
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c7a

    Ethnic group
    15/32 British, 5/32 German, 9/64 Irish, 1/8 Scots Gaelic, 5/64 French, 1/32 Welsh
    Country: USA - Washington



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Very doubtful since it is a subclade of P312/S116. I think it represents the first migration of R1b Indo-Europeans from central Europe to south-west Europe, circa 2300 BCE. As I have explained in How did the Basques become R1b ?, this R1b migration was probably carried by a group of Indo-European men, adventurers mounted on horses and equipped with bronze weapons in search of easy conquest and loot in Neolithic western Europe. It took over 500 years for the Bronze Age to spread around all Iberia (from 1800 to 1300 BCE) because no proper Bronze Age culture emerged before the wider Atlantic Bronze Age (1300-700 BCE). Before that there were only isolated settlements where bronze weapons have been found, but no evidence of bronze producing societies making use of bronze technologies for everyday life. I believe that this is a sign that for this half millennium Iberia was ruled by warlords of Indo-European (R1b) origin, who had lost their Indo-European language and heritage after a few generations. It is likely that Indo-European languages did not really take hold in Iberia (in the north-west at least) during the Hallstatt expansion around 600 BCE. That doesn't mean that R1b wasn't present in Iberia before that of course. R1b had just become acculturated because of the lack of organised migration of whole tribes with women and children.
    It appears that there was a Celtic trade route that went from Tartessos, Spain up into Cornwall; Tin Trade and Cornwall traded with the Irish Celtic Sea. Here is the source of the map below, sorry that I couldn't link the map to you for I couldn't find it anywhere else but here.

    Source: Barnes, Ian, Dr. "Celtic Trade." The Historical Atlas of the Celtic World. Edison: Chartwell, 2009. 28-29. Print.

    It also looks like Iberian Dna borders on the Irish mainland; this border seems to stretch from Ashford to Cork Harbor. Here is the map http://i1.wp.com/www.cjroots.com/wp-...-Peninsula.png

  3. #28
    Junior Member Achievements:
    1 year registered500 Experience Points

    Join Date
    15-07-16
    Posts
    4
    Points
    866
    Level
    7
    Points: 866, Level: 7
    Level completed: 58%, Points required for next Level: 84
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - DF27

    Ethnic group
    Caucasian
    Country: USA - California



    I am a new DF27 subscriber to this forum and this is my first post. I am delighted to see the DF27 map and would like to know more about the specific academic studies that provided the support for the placement of DF27 in the geography of Gascon and Iberia. My sincere thanks to all the contributors for all the material that is posted at this site.

  4. #29
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    Promenade's Avatar
    Join Date
    08-01-16
    Posts
    288
    Points
    4,459
    Level
    19
    Points: 4,459, Level: 19
    Level completed: 53%, Points required for next Level: 191
    Overall activity: 2.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-U106 R-L1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1e

    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Lindsay View Post
    I am a new DF27 subscriber to this forum and this is my first post. I am delighted to see the DF27 map and would like to know more about the specific academic studies that provided the support for the placement of DF27 in the geography of Gascon and Iberia. My sincere thanks to all the contributors for all the material that is posted at this site.
    Is Lindsay your surname? I would be curious as well if I my paternal ancestry was from the British isles and I had a predominately Iberian Y-DNA subclade. I don't know Maciamo's source for the map but I checked your Surnames group project on FTDNA and a large number of Lindsay's share your subclade, DF27.

    There is also a large Lindsay surname DNA project you may want to look into, http://isogg.org/wiki/Lindsay_Surname_DNA_Project

  5. #30
    Junior Member Achievements:
    1 year registered500 Experience Points

    Join Date
    15-07-16
    Posts
    4
    Points
    866
    Level
    7
    Points: 866, Level: 7
    Level completed: 58%, Points required for next Level: 84
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - DF27

    Ethnic group
    Caucasian
    Country: USA - California



    Hi Promenade, thanks for your reply. I am the administrator of the International Lindsay Surname DNA Project which was initiated in 2002 and currently "housed" at the FTDNA web site, with over 290 current participants worldwide. Our Lindsay DNA Groups 2 and 3 are both DF27. I have been further tested positive for ZZ12.1 . You may also wish to take a look at the Lindsay International web site which I created in 2001. I am trying hard to determine who my Lindsays were before they became Lindsays.

  6. #31
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    08-07-09
    Posts
    196
    Points
    9,279
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,279, Level: 28
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 71
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    L705.2/L159.2/Z220
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H*

    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I had been postponing the creation of this map until more data was available, especially for France and Central Europe. But as this could take years, I've decided to make the map anyway and update it later once new studies will be published. So please take it with a pinch of salt.

    The map is mostly based on the data for SRY2627 (M167) and M153. I expect the overall frequency to be higher once other subclades will be brought to light.

    These maps are great. I would like to include them on a couple of the R1b project overview pages so and am happy to cite Eupedia or Maciamo Hay directly as is desired. Is that okay to include this image on project web page, i.e. the R1b-DF27 project, or in the case of R1b overall, the R1b total map for that project?

  7. #32
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    razyn's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-08-11
    Posts
    57
    Points
    6,418
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,418, Level: 23
    Level completed: 74%, Points required for next Level: 132
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    RP312 DF27 Z196 Z220

    Country: USA - Virginia



    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Is that okay to include this image on project web page, i.e. the R1b-DF27 project
    I realize that Mike is an admin too, but as the admin who actually sorts the DF27 project on a day to day basis, I'd like to note that Maciamo's 2013 map of some portion of DF27 is badly out of date, and does not represent either the extent or the percentages of the haplogroup as a whole. His original caption clearly states that it is mostly SRY2627 and M153. Even if a bit more is shown from a couple of academic projects (such as Myres et al, and Busby et al), they were published before comprehensive NextGen sequencing data were available to their authors. Much more representative trees are now available, though maps based on them generally are not.

    For example, Alex Williamson's "Big Tree" currently has 523 samples below DF27. 48 of them are SRY2627, and 8 are M153. The rest are neither, and most of them are not reflected in the stats underlying Maciamo's map. Even if we charitably include all of Z198 (near kin of SRY2627), that's only 113. So this 2013 map is missing somewhere between 77% and 89% of DF27 as known to Alex. He just sees what is made available to him, mostly by individual owners of NextGen sequenced kits (plus the 1000 Genomes Project). It is not a scientific sample; but the genetic diversity and geographical spread of DF27 that the Big Tree reveals is no less real, for having largely been volunteered by interested customers of FTDNA and FGC.

    I should really like to see a realistic DF27 map, but I have not seen one. Personally, I would rather wait for improvements than to keep linking this early effort all over cyberspace. Improvements in the data are still coming in almost daily, so it's a moving target. It wasn't frozen in 2013, and if try we bring it up to date, it may yet be proven inadequate (when, for instance, France or Romania has a big NextGen project for YDNA).

    Also, heat maps tend to make people assume that our contemporary hot spots are pointers to the haplogroup's place of origin. For most haplogroups, that is not the case. People don't normally stay in one area for 5,000 years; they move, now and then. This has happened many times among the subclades of DF27, several of which parted company from one another a few thousand years ago.
    Last edited by razyn; 01-09-16 at 04:58. Reason: Misspelled Ms. Myres's name

  8. #33
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    08-07-09
    Posts
    196
    Points
    9,279
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,279, Level: 28
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 71
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    L705.2/L159.2/Z220
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H*

    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    These maps are great. I would like to include them on a couple of the R1b project overview pages so and am happy to cite Eupedia or Maciamo Hay directly as is desired. Is that okay to include this image on project web page, i.e. the R1b-DF27 project, or in the case of R1b overall, the R1b total map for that project?
    The DF27 Pack is probably a bad example, but most of these frequency maps in R1b are fair representations of what scientific studies have surveyed. It's the best the we've got anyway.

    Is there any problem with adding one of these graphic map images to a project page, given a a proper citation to Eupedia is included?

  9. #34
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    9,052
    Points
    758,968
    Level
    100
    Points: 758,968, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 91.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    4 members found this post helpful.
    I have updated the R1b-DF27 map based especially on the data from Valverde et al. (2016), and to a lesser extent Lucotte et al (2015).

    The previous map involved a lot of guesswork based on R1b-S116 subclades that excluded L21, U106 and U152, and limited data on M153 and SRY2627. Now the situation is clearer, especially in Spain.

    Last edited by Maciamo; 29-09-16 at 18:05.
    My book selection---Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  10. #35
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,085
    Points
    9,648
    Level
    29
    Points: 9,648, Level: 29
    Level completed: 50%, Points required for next Level: 302
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Much caution needed with the Valverde paper; they tested people from Alicante, Madrid and Barcelona, and such cities have levels of 50-60% of people with a recent migratory past, so they are not representative of the regional genetics of lets say the XIX century. In fact Madrid was a little town till it was converted in the Spanish capital in the XVI century, attracting all time people and people from everywhere till reaching the actual 3 milions. For the Basques at least they got the results from those having Basque surnames, and this is a good alternative to obtain real regional DNA keeping out recent additions and admixtures (half of the Basque population and/or their fathers were born in other Spanish regions).
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

  11. #36
    Elite member Achievements:
    OverdriveThree Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Hauteville's Avatar
    Join Date
    28-11-14
    Posts
    824
    Points
    9,640
    Level
    29
    Points: 9,640, Level: 29
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 310
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-S185
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    There are some SRY2627 also in Italy, you can see it into Boattini, Sarno and Tofanelli studies. I've a contact from Piemonte who has got this haplogroup.
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

  12. #37
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    razyn's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-08-11
    Posts
    57
    Points
    6,418
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,418, Level: 23
    Level completed: 74%, Points required for next Level: 132
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    RP312 DF27 Z196 Z220

    Country: USA - Virginia



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have updated the R1b-DF27 map
    Thanks very much for the update, I'll link it in places that ought to know.

    You should, in turn, be aware that within the past month there has been an aDNA breakthrough of sorts. The first, and so far the only undisputed, ancient DNA example of DF27 has been detected in sample I0806, a carbon-14 dated Bell Beaker burial (in a predominantly Corded Ware cemetery) in Quedlinburg, Germany. This is northeast of any pink area on your latest map; but it's just one middle-aged guy, born about 4300 years ago. That's several thousand years too old, and a few months too recently discovered, to have affected 21st century academic publications (or heat maps based on them) in any way. Probably the best place to read up on it is here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post186674

    Some of the subsequent posting on that thread is off-topic; but it is where I (and others) try to paste in useful links to discoveries, publications, or posts elsewhere that are pertinent to this map and discussion.

  13. #38
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-03-16
    Posts
    530
    Points
    5,599
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,599, Level: 22
    Level completed: 10%, Points required for next Level: 451
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have updated the R1b-DF27 map based especially on the data from Valverde et al. (2016), and to a lesser extent Lucotte et al (2015).

    The previous map involved a lot of guesswork based on R1b-S116 subclades that excluded L21, U106 and U152, and limited data on M153 and SRY2627. Now the situation is clearer, especially in Spain.

    What study found it in Greece?

    The guy from the Greek FTDNA project who has it must be Arvanite or Vlach but not from there supposedly.
    Maybe Arvanite of Catalan origin. It would make sense for those who know Greek history, although it would seem weird.

  14. #39
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    12-09-16
    Posts
    24
    Points
    1,322
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,322, Level: 9
    Level completed: 86%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Ethnic group
    Balto-Slav, Celto-Germanic
    Country: Norway



    Results from this year

    2016 results from Family Tree indicate a frequency of R-DF27 at up to 12% in England in certain districts.

    In most English regions R-DF27 is above 5%.

  15. #40
    Junior Member Achievements:
    1 year registered500 Experience Points

    Join Date
    15-07-16
    Posts
    4
    Points
    866
    Level
    7
    Points: 866, Level: 7
    Level completed: 58%, Points required for next Level: 84
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - DF27

    Ethnic group
    Caucasian
    Country: USA - California



    Hi Belmonde,

    When you state "Family Tree" ... I assume you are referring to Family Tree DNA laboratory in Houston ... will you tell me where you find this type information at FTDNA?

  16. #41
    Elite member Achievements:
    OverdriveThree Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Hauteville's Avatar
    Join Date
    28-11-14
    Posts
    824
    Points
    9,640
    Level
    29
    Points: 9,640, Level: 29
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 310
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-S185
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    What study found it in Greece?

    The guy from the Greek FTDNA project who has it must be Arvanite or Vlach but not from there supposedly.
    Maybe Arvanite of Catalan origin. It would make sense for those who know Greek history, although it would seem weird.
    I guess for these ducats, they were not directly possessions of Kingdom of Aragon but of Kingdom of Sicily but in our army there were a sizeable number of Catalan and Aragonese soldiers and some Catalan merchants who settled in Neopatria too:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Neopatras

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Athens

  17. #42
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    9,052
    Points
    758,968
    Level
    100
    Points: 758,968, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 91.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Belmonde View Post
    2016 results from Family Tree indicate a frequency of R-DF27 at up to 12% in England in certain districts.

    In most English regions R-DF27 is above 5%.
    You may be right. Data on DF27 was very sparse until recently. There hasn't been any academic paper testing it in the British Isles. So I went to FTDNA's R1b project and counted all R1b subclades for each region and calculate frequencies myself. Here is what I got.

    Scotland (n=272)

    DF27 : 7.5%
    L21 : 60.5%
    U152 : 6.5%
    U106 : 17%
    Other R1b : 4.5%

    Northern Ireland (n=134)

    DF27 : 10.5%
    L21 : 68.5%
    U152 : 4.5%
    U106 : 10.5%
    Other R1b : 4.5%

    Ireland (n=270)

    DF27 : 5.5%
    L21 : 81.5%
    U152 : 2%
    U106 : 9%
    Other R1b : 2%

    Wales (n=29)

    DF27 : 10.5%
    L21 : 48.5%
    U152 : 3.5%
    U106 : 27.5%
    Other R1b : 10.5%

    SW England (n=136)

    DF27 : 15.5%
    L21 : 23.5%
    U152 : 6.5%
    U106 : 37.5%
    Other R1b : 17%

    SE England (n=109)

    DF27 : 15.5%
    L21 : 25.5%
    U152 : 13%
    U106 : 34%
    Other R1b : 12.5%

    East Anglia (n=46)

    DF27 : 13.5%
    L21 : 21.5%
    U152 : 19.5%
    U106 : 27%
    Other R1b : 8.5%

    Midlands (n=142)

    DF27 : 17.5%
    L21 : 29.5%
    U152 : 10.5%
    U106 : 33%
    Other R1b : 9%

    Northern England (n=72)

    DF27 : 16.5%
    L21 : 23.5%
    U152 : 14%
    U106 : 33.5%
    Other R1b : 12.5%


    Keep in mind that these are only percentages within R1b, not the frequency in the total population. But anyway I will need to update the map again. The actual frequencies of R1b-DF27 should be approximately this:

    Scotland: 5.5% (but very little of it in the Highlands)
    Northern Ireland: 7.5%
    Ireland: 4.5%
    Wales: 7.5% (not representative considering the low sample size)
    Northern England: 9-11%
    Midlands: 11%
    East Anglia: 7.5%
    SE England: 10%
    SW England : 11%

  18. #43
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    9,052
    Points
    758,968
    Level
    100
    Points: 758,968, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 91.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    1 members found this post helpful.
    I have now updated the map. I also revised the frequencies upward for northern and eastern France, the Benelux, southwest Germany, Switzerland and northern Italy, based on the FTDNA R1b Project. It might even be higher as southwest Germany and Switzerland show almost as much DF27 as U106 and U152! In Belgium, the Brabant DNA Project only tested U106 and U152 but found a remaining 21% of R1b-P312, and surely less than half is L21. Data for France is still despairingly sparse.


  19. #44
    Elite member Achievements:
    OverdriveThree Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Hauteville's Avatar
    Join Date
    28-11-14
    Posts
    824
    Points
    9,640
    Level
    29
    Points: 9,640, Level: 29
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 310
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-S185
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    I think DF27 in Sicily came via mainland Italian repopulation (a significant number of the settlers moved from north west Italy too) after muslim expulsion more than with Aragonese and Catalan merchants and soldiers.

  20. #45
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    9,052
    Points
    758,968
    Level
    100
    Points: 758,968, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 91.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    I think DF27 in Sicily came via mainland Italian repopulation (a significant number of the settlers moved from north west Italy too) after muslim expulsion more than with Aragonese and Catalan merchants and soldiers.
    Or from the Normans...

  21. #46
    Elite member Achievements:
    OverdriveThree Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Hauteville's Avatar
    Join Date
    28-11-14
    Posts
    824
    Points
    9,640
    Level
    29
    Points: 9,640, Level: 29
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 310
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-S185
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Could also be possible and these mainland Italians came with Normans-Swabians indeed. Around 15 inland cities have also nowadays a typical North Italian influenced dialect and the Sicilian language has many words derived from gallo-romance (North Italiand and French) even if we are italo-romance speaking.

  22. #47
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,085
    Points
    9,648
    Level
    29
    Points: 9,648, Level: 29
    Level completed: 50%, Points required for next Level: 302
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_language

    Local languages usualy reflect ancient superstrates, and maybe such influence could paralel the Y DNA influence, and if so the Norman DNA share would be scanty (as in time and vocabulary).

  23. #48
    Elite member Achievements:
    OverdriveThree Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Hauteville's Avatar
    Join Date
    28-11-14
    Posts
    824
    Points
    9,640
    Level
    29
    Points: 9,640, Level: 29
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 310
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-S185
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_language

    Local languages usualy reflect ancient superstrates, and maybe such influence could paralel the Y DNA influence, and if so the Norman DNA share would be scanty (as in time and vocabulary).
    There is more Provenšal, Northern Italian and Tuscan influences in modern Sicilian than Norman or Germanic who are also present both as dialect and as Y-DNA, especially in the western part of the island, who has high I and Catania has one of the peaks of R1b U106 in Italy according to Sarno et al. The first mentioned together with other mainland Italians played a role in the repopoulation of the island. One of my surname's family is common in North Italy too, and my paternal surname is present all over Italy.

  24. #49
    Baron Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    19-05-12
    Posts
    286
    Points
    6,522
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,522, Level: 23
    Level completed: 95%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Country: Canada



    DF27+ is a wide ranging group that extends from Portugal to the highlands of eastern Armenia. Some of the Nordvedt so-called "N-S cluster" have a completely north European distribution, even though they are just a few steps upstream of the branches common amongst *modern* Basque speakers. To the best of my knowledge, M153, or Z214 (xM153) will be the common type of N-S cluster amongst these guys.

  25. #50
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,085
    Points
    9,648
    Level
    29
    Points: 9,648, Level: 29
    Level completed: 50%, Points required for next Level: 302
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    What study found it in Greece?

    The guy from the Greek FTDNA project who has it must be Arvanite or Vlach but not from there supposedly.
    Maybe Arvanite of Catalan origin. It would make sense for those who know Greek history, although it would seem weird.
    The most simple explanation is that the Greek spot would be the product of the Almogàvers (Catalan mercenaries); the Byzantine emperor Andronicus II hired such mercenaries to fight against the Turks, but with such success that his son Michael IX feared the treaty that the mercenaries would get the half of his empire, so that he did a complot to kill them... but the surviving soldiers got a punitive vengeance and massacre. After such actions they founded a military republic (like that of the Crusaders but in Orthodox territory), people there remembered them as wrongdoers.

    https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venjan%C3%A7a_Catalana

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •