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Thread: Sardinian Y-DNA Phylogeny per Francalacci et al. 2013

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    R1b would have folded in later chasing the rich mining capacities. Their biggest influx would have probably started with the Romans (maybe even earlier) and continued through the Middle Ages. Lots of metal in that rocky island!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The Arabs never colonised Sardinia.

    There were only 3 R1a-Z2123 samples in Sardinia, i.e. 0.25% of the population. That is consistent with the very minor size of the Alanic contingent, and in good proportion to the 34 samples that could be of Vandalic origin (2.8%).
    It's even more consistent with the fact that Arabs never colonized Sardinia, but Sicily, Southern Italy and North Africa were, and they're nearby.

    In other words, you have to do better than that to prove an Alanic link here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    David Faux already mentioned this scenario in his paper - "Norse coming from central Asia" ( or something similar title along these lines).
    Norse R1a isn't of Central Asian origin.

    So far only one Central Asian R1a-Z94 has been found in Scandinavia, and that belongs to a Swede with possible Tatar ancestry.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by nordicquarreler View Post
    But anyway I do think it's useful to take a peek at this island because it is so far removed from the norm. What speaks to me is the echo of the whole "boats, horses, and farming" set up that has been repeated on a macro-level throughout the European theater. (With hg. I having boats, R1b having the horses, and G2a, E1, and J tending the earliest farms.) My island refuge theory holds up with these more detailed reports, but it looks like I2 would have landed on an island that was already settled-- probably rather thinly-- by some G, J, and E members.
    How Strabo described Sardinia;

    Strabo - Book V
    The greater part of Sardo is rugged and not at peace, though much of it has also soil that is blessed with all products — especially with grain.........for in summer the island is unhealthful, particularly in the fruitful districts; and it is precisely these districts that are continually ravaged by those mountaineers who are now called Diagesbes.........There are four tribes of the mountaineers, the Parati, the Sossinati, the Balari, and the Aconites, and they live in caverns; but if they do hold a bit of land that is fit for sowing, they do not sow even this diligently; instead, they pillage the lands of the farmers — not only of the farmers on the island, but they actually sail against the people on the opposite coast, the Pisatae in particular.


    The Neolithic farming site at Treilles (France) turned up with I2a1;
    However the ratio was 20x G2a and 2x I2a1;
    Whereas in Sardinia the (modern-day) ratio is still almost 4 to 1 in favor of I2a1a(M26) over G2a;

    from the current study - Francalacci et al 2013
    38.7% --- I2a1a(M26)
    10.9% --- G2a

    Hence Raiding and Piracy was far more common than Farming in Sardinia;
    Despite the island being blessed with Grain and Fruitful areas;

    The only substantial ref. point in pre-Roman Sardinia is the [Bronze-age / Iron-age] Nuragic civilization;
    Stretching from 1800 BC (Bonnanaro culture) - 238 BC (Roman Conquest)

    Nuragic votive-ship miniature from Bronze-age Sardinia

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    I would like to investigate what percentage of Y-DNA in Sardinia can be attributed to the Phoenicians. Since the Arabs, Greeks or Etruscans didn't settle in Sardinia, all the Southwest Asian and most of the West Asian Y-DNA in Sardinia that is not of Neolithic origin ought to have come through the Phoenicians.

    I have revised the Y-DNA frequencies for Sardinia, adding the Francalacci data to the previous data.

    Three haplogroups in Sardinia were almost certainly brought by the Phoenicians to Sardinia, because they aren't normally found in the rest of Europe. These are J1-P58, R1b-V88 and R2, of which the Sardinians have an average of respectively 4%, 2.5% and 0.8%.

    The Phoenicians also surely brought J2, E1b1b, G2a and T, but so did Neolithic farmers and probably also the Romans. The difficulty lies in sorting out how much E1b1b and J2 is Phoenician and how much is Roman or Neolithic. J1 in itself could be of Neolithic origin, apart from the fact that Sardinian J1 belongs exclusively to the P58 subclade, and most of it is positive for the typically Semitic L147.1 mutation, thought to represent the descendants of Abraham (who lived circa 1700 BCE, during the Late Bronze Age, half a millennium before the start of the Phoenician colonisation). That subclade is therefore too young to be of Neolithic origin, and too Southwest Asian to be of Greco-Roman or Etruscan origin.

    Based on modern frequencies in Lebanon, J2 is only slightly higher than J1 (26% against 20%). That is almost exactly the same proportion as among Jewish people. Therefore there is a good chance that the Phoenicians also had a similar proportion. If that is the case, 4 to 5% of Sardinian J2 would be Phoenician. But it could be just 1.5% or 2% if the Phoenicians really had a J1/J2 proportion intermediary between modern Jordanians and Saudis.

    E1b1b is slightly lower than J1, so perhaps 3 to 3.5% of Sardinian E1b1b can be considered Phoenician.

    Haplogroup T is at 5% in Lebanon, 1/4 of J1. That would give us 1% of Phoenician T, and 0.5% of Neolithic and/or Roman.

    Haplogroup G is found at 1/3 of the frequency of J1 in Lebanon. G2a is at 12% in Sardinia, so 4% could be Phoenician.

    There is 8% of R1b in Lebanon, but according to the largest study on Lebanese Y-DNA V88 is only a small minority of the R1b lineages. Most are M269 or downstream (presumably L23). So there could be 4% of Phoenician R1b in Sardinia, the same as G2a, which is in agreement with the modern Lebanese frequencies.

    As mentioned above, R1a-Z93 and Q1a3c could also be Phoenician, but could just as well be Alanic.

    Haplogroup L, A and E1a could all have been brought by the Phoenicians. This would add up to 1.6% of Phoenician Y-DNA.

    Overall I estimate that between 16% and 24% of Sardinian paternal lineages are of Phoenician origin. It is only slightly higher than the autosomal DNA. That would mean that the Phoenicians brought their women with them to their colonies and did not intermarry a lot with local women - at least in the case of Sardinia.


    UPDATE 1:

    In addition to the Phoenician Y-DNA there is 5.5% of North African E-M81 in Sardinia. It is likely that most of it came to Sardinia when the island was part of the Phoenician/Carthaginian empire. This subclade of E1b1b can neither be considered Neolithic nor Roman. 1% of Lebanese Y-DNA is E-M81. Not enough to account for more than a tiny fraction of the 5.5%.

    E-M123, which makes up 2% of Sardinian lineages, is much higher in the Levant than in Europe, meaning that most of it could be of Phoenician origin, leaving perhaps 1.5% or 2% of Phoenician E-M78, and the rest of Neolithic origin. If that is true, then the Romans would have practically not contributed to any E1b1b in Sardinia. The alternative would be that either Neolithic farmers and/or the Phoenicians had much less E1b1b than thought. Anyway it is certain from this study that the Romans carried a much higher percentage of R1b-U152 than of E1b1b.

    As for J2, even if Neolithic farmers had none of it, the Romans could only have brought between 2% and 6% to Sardinia once the Phoenician J2 is deducted. It is still a far cry from the 10.5% of R1b-U152.


    UPDATE 2:

    Here is the breakdown of Lebanese J2 subclades.

    - J2a1 : 15.3%
    -- J2a1b (M67) : 7.8%
    - J2b (M12) : 2.7%

    Deeper subclades were not tested, but according to the FTDNA Project, J2a1h2a1-L70 appears to be the most common subclade in Lebanon.

    Here is the Sardinian breakdown:

    - J2a* (M410) : 0.6%
    -- J2a1* (L26) : 1.3%
    --- J2a1b (M67) : 1.5% (including 0.7% of J2a1b1-M92)
    --- J2a1h (L24) : 2% (including 0.4% of J2a1h2a1-L70)
    -- J2a2 (L581) : 0.8% (including 0.25% of J2a2a-P279)
    - J2b (M12) : 2% (including 1.6% of J2b2-M241)

    The three most common subclades in Sardinia, M67, L24 and M12 are all well represented in Lebanon and could therefore be of Phoenician origin. I would need more details on Lebanese subclades to determine whether L581 could also be Levantine. The problem is that all these subclades are also found on the Italian mainland, so it is of little help to separate the Phoenician from the Roman lineages.


    UPDATE 3 :

    Out of the 11% of G2a in this study, 3.3% is L91+, a subclade typical of North Africa, and also found in Sicily. Since it isn't found in Lebanon, but sometimes pops up in northern Europe, it is most likely of Neolithic origin.

    The rest of G2a includes:

    - G2a3a (M406) : 0.8% => found in Lebanon but also throughout Europe.
    - G2a3b1* (P303) : 2.1% => potentially Indo-European, could be Roman.
    -- G2a3b1a1 (U1) : 0.9% (all L13+ or L1266+) => very probably Indo-European, Celto-Italic, Roman.
    -- G2a3b1a2 (L497) : 0.5% => very strongly mirrors the distribution of R1b-P312, and especially U152. Almost certainly Roman.
    -- G2a3b1a3a (Z1903) : 2.4%
    Last edited by Maciamo; 21-08-13 at 15:40.
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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    I don't think Phoenicians had that much of a genetic impact. The phoenicians were first and foremost commercial people, traders ... they didn't made big settlements, just port-towns along coast-lines, for their comnmercial purposes, but rarely penetrating inside the lands where they went, or blending with local cultures and people. Their legacy is mostly cultural.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I would like to investigate what percentage of Y-DNA in Sardinia can be attributed to the Phoenicians. Since the Arabs, Greeks or Etruscans didn't settle in Sardinia, all the Southwest Asian and most of the West Asian DNA in Sardinia ought to have come through the Phoenicians.

    Autosomal DNA

    Based on the Dodecad's K=12 autosomal admixtures, the Sardinians have 6.2% of Southwest Asian and 4.6% of West Asian admixture (along with 55.5% of Mediterranean). Modern Lebanese, the presumed descendants of the Phoenicians, have 23.9% of Southwest Asian, 32.4% of West Asian, and 28.8% of Mediterranean.

    Since Ötzi had very little West Asian and no Southwest Asian admixture, it is relatively safe to think that Neolithic farmers didn't bring those admixtures, and that it is consequently of Phoenician or Roman origin. Modern Central Italians have 7.2% of Southwest Asian and 21.6% of West Asian, but since they are certainly not representative of admixtures of ancient Romans of the Republic since ancient Rome became a huge melting pot during the empire and completely changed the gene pool of central Italy.

    We could calculate the proportion of Phoenician vs Roman by looking at the Southwest Asian vs West Asian ratio. For the Phoenicians it is 3/4. For the Central Italians it is 1/3. Sardinians are unique in having more Southwest Asian than West Asian. Their ratio is the same as the Phoenicians by inverted. That makes them intermediary between modern Jordanians and Saudis. As a result, it can be envisaged that the Phoenicians had a higher proportion of J1 to J2 than modern Lebanese. It's actually hard to see how the Romans could have contributed any West Asian admixture at all, since they would have raised its proportion to the Southwest Asian admixture to around 50-50 (unless of course the ancient Romans had more Southwest Asian than West Asian, but I cannot imagine how this could be). So it is very possible that all the Southwest Asian and almost all the West Asian in Sardinia is of Phoenician origin. If that is the case, then around 5% of Mediterranean admixture could also be Phoenician, bring the total of autosomal DNA of Phoenician origin to approximately 16%. Let's see if similar proportions can be obtained from Y-DNA


    Y-DNA

    I have revised the Y-DNA frequencies for Sardinia, adding the Francalacci data to the previous data. The Sardinians now have an average of 4% of J1, 2.5% of R1b-V88, and 0.8% of R2, the three haplogroups that are most strongly correlated with the Phoenician homeland in modern Lebanon. They also surely brought J2, E1b1b, G2a and T, but so did Neolithic farmers and probably also the Romans. The difficulty lies in sorting out how much E1b1b and J2 is Phoenician and how much is Roman or Neolithic.

    Based on modern frequencies in Lebanon, J2 is only slightly higher than J1 (26% against 20%). That is almost exactly the same proportion as among Jewish people. Therefore there is a good chance that the Phoenicians also had a similar proportion. If that is the case, 4 to 5% of Sardinian J2 would be Phoenician. But it could be just 1.5% or 2% if the Phoenicians really had a J1/J2 proportion intermediary between modern Jordanians and Saudis.

    E1b1b is slightly lower than J1, so perhaps 3 to 3.5% of Sardinian E1b1b can be considered Phoenician.

    Haplogroup T is at 5% in Lebanon, 1/4 of J1. That would give us 1% of Phoenician T, and 0.5% of Neolithic and/or Roman.

    Haplogroup G is found at 1/3 of the frequency of J1 in Lebanon. G2a is at 12% in Sardinia, so 4% could be Phoenician.

    There is 8% of R1b in Lebanon, but according to the largest study on Lebanese Y-DNA V88 is only a small minority of the R1b lineages. Most are M269 or downstream (presumably L23). So there could be 4% of Phoenician R1b in Sardinia, the same as G2a, which is in agreement with the modern Lebanese frequencies.

    As mentioned above, R1a-Z93 and Q1a3c could also be Phoenician, but could just as well be Alanic.

    Haplogroup L, A and E1a could all have been brought by the Phoenicians. This would add up to 1.6% of Phoenician Y-DNA.

    Overall I estimate that between 16% and 24% of Sardinian paternal lineages are of Phoenician origin. It is only slightly higher than the autosomal DNA. That would mean that the Phoenicians brought their women with them to their colonies and did not intermarry a lot with local women - at least in the case of Sardinia.


    UPDATE 1:

    In addition to the Phoenician Y-DNA there is 5.5% of North African E-M81 in Sardinia. It is likely that most of it came to Sardinia when the island was part of the Phoenician/Carthaginian empire. This subclade of E1b1b can neither be considered Neolithic nor Roman. 1% of Lebanese Y-DNA is E-M81. Not enough to account for more than a tiny fraction of the 5.5%.

    E-M123, which makes up 2% of Sardinian lineages, is much higher in the Levant than in Europe, meaning that most of it could be of Phoenician origin, leaving perhaps 1.5% or 2% of Phoenician E-M78, and the rest of Neolithic origin. If that is true, then the Romans would have practically not contributed to any E1b1b in Sardinia. The alternative would be that either Neolithic farmers and/or the Phoenicians had much less E1b1b than thought. Anyway it is certain from this study that the Romans carried a much higher percentage of R1b-U152 than of E1b1b.

    As for J2, even if Neolithic farmers had none of it, the Romans could only have brought between 2% and 6% to Sardinia once the Phoenician J2 is deducted. It is still a far cry from the 10.5% of R1b-U152.
    i really enjoy posts like this...........anyway, does MtDna play any part in this?
    Sardinian subclade U5b3a1 of Haplogroup U (mtDNA) came from Provence to Sardinia by obsidian (Glass) merchants, as it is estimated that 80% of obsidian found in France comes from Monte Arci in Sardinia reflecting the close relations that existed at one time for these two regions.

    Another interesting anomaly is the presence of H13a of Haplogroup H (mtDNA) is present in the island at around 9.2%. As this is an extremely rare subclade normally present in the Caucasus.
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    Post R1a+Z2123

    Quote Originally Posted by T101 View Post
    Z2123 is very widespread from India to the Bashkirs to Germany. If it does prove to be Middle Eastern in origin I imagine it was probably brought into Sardinia during the Roman or Byzantine Empires. Or if Z2123 originated in the steppe, then the Alans are the likely source along with perhaps the Q1a3c.

    It's not really too Slavic looking at all. The Z282 and Z280 are probably remnants from the Pomeranian Culture (650BCE-200BCE) and Lusatian Culture (1300 BCE - 500BCE) which are by most accounts Baltic with strong connections to the Nordic Bronze Age.
    Need to know is What subclades R1a+Z2123 is it in Sardinia?

    Which STR those in Sardinia, which SNP R1a+Z2123?

    Bashkirs have three subclades R1a+Z2123:

    Sakes-Dinlings 13 25 15 11 11-13 12 12 10 13 11 31
    Wusuns 13 24 16 11 11-15 12 12 12 13 11 31
    Massagetaes-Alans 13 25 16 11 11-14 12 12 10 12 11 29


    They all are R1a+Z2123, the lifetime of a common ancestor according to calculations by Igor Rozhanskii = 4,300 years ago, or in other words 23 century BC

    About Sakes-Dinlings sub-branch R1a+Z2123 the Bashkirs - there is an article in English.

    In Karachays-Balkars peoples who live in the Caucasus, and they are direct descendants of the Alans - they have Massagetaes-Alans line R1a+Z2123.

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    Very interesting and intriguing exercise Maciamo.
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    Lightbulb Matches

    Furnivall Italy 270161, R1a Unknown
    14 25 16 11 11 15 12 12 10 13 11 29 15 9 10 11 11 24 14 20 36 12 15 15 16 11 12 19 23 16 15 18 19 35 39 13 11 11 8 17 17 8 12 10 8 11 10 12 22 22 15 10 12 12 14 8 15 23 21 12 12 11 13 11 11 12 13

    Bostan Karachay (Caucas) 211933, R1a+Z2123
    13 25 16 11 11 14 12 12 10 12 11 29 15 9 10 11 11 25 14 20 33 12 14 15 16 11 12 19 24 16 16 17 19 35 39 13 11 11 8 16 17 8 12 10 8 11 10 12 22 22 15 10 12 12 13 8 15 23 21 12 12 11 13 11 11 12 13

    P.S. 13 steps between Bostan and Furnivall.

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    This is now the second study in a row that confirms R1b-U152 to be ~10% in Sardinia;

    Boattini et al 2013 [82 samples] = 9.7% R1b-U152
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0065441
    Francalacci et al 2013 [1200 samples] = 10.7% R1b-U152
    (current study)

    Needless to say that only the Roman times and the Medieval times can be the source for this
    substantial (every tenth Sardinian) amount of R1b-U152 in Sardinia;


    I think the main source however; is def. the Medieval times;

    David Abulafia - The New Cambridge Medieval History: Vol.V (1999)
    As has been seen, Castel di Castro or Cagliari was founded by the Pisans in 1217, with imposing fortifications; and, even though settlement by Sards was prohibited, it rapidly grew to contain a population of several thousand (between 7,000 and 10,000 at the end of the thirteenth century).....In the same judgeship, in the south-west of Sardinia, Count Ugolino founded around 1250 the city of Iglesias, which was to grow within a couple of generations to a population not far below 10,000.....Another town which experienced growth was the reborn centre at Olbia, on the north-east coast of Sardinia; Civita or Terranova was described in a Pisan document as a quasi civitas.....This urbanisation was rendered possible by the emigration from the mainland, especially from Pisa and its contado;

    Pisa and Genoa conquered Sardinia in 1016; The Pisans were greatly crippled by the Genoese at the Battle of Meloria (1284) and 40 years later lost control over Sardinia; Thats over 300 years with massive urbanisation (Tuscan migrations) across the 13th cen.

    So in terms of R1b-U152
    - what the medieval Lombards are for Sicily the medieval Tuscans are for Sardinia;
    NW Italy (medieval Lombardy) = 32.2% R1b-U152 [161 samples] - Boattini et al 2013
    Tuscany = 37.4% R1b-U152 [123 samples] - Boattini et al 2013

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    ...
    Needless to say that only the Roman times and the Medieval times can be the source for this
    substantial (every tenth Sardinian) amount of R1b-U152 in Sardinia...
    Have you considered the ancient Ligures? I think that is one of xxx's hypotheses.
    [[[EDIT 08/14/2013: I can't find the posting from Rocca. His U152.org web link is down, but he may have been referring to Urnfield anyway. My mistake, although I still think the Ligures are consideration. ]]]
    Last edited by Mikewww; 15-08-13 at 00:16.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I would like to investigate what percentage of Y-DNA in Sardinia can be attributed to the Phoenicians. Since the Arabs, Greeks or Etruscans didn't settle in Sardinia, all the Southwest Asian and most of the West Asian DNA in Sardinia ought to have come through the Phoenicians.

    Autosomal DNA

    Based on the Dodecad's K=12 autosomal admixtures, the Sardinians have 6.2% of Southwest Asian and 4.6% of West Asian admixture (along with 55.5% of Mediterranean). Modern Lebanese, the presumed descendants of the Phoenicians, have 23.9% of Southwest Asian, 32.4% of West Asian, and 28.8% of Mediterranean.

    Since Ötzi had very little West Asian and no Southwest Asian admixture, it is relatively safe to think that Neolithic farmers didn't bring those admixtures, and that it is consequently of Phoenician or Roman origin. Modern Central Italians have 7.2% of Southwest Asian and 21.6% of West Asian, but they are certainly not representative of admixtures of ancient Romans of the Republic since ancient Rome became a huge melting pot during the empire and completely changed the gene pool of central Italy.

    We could calculate the proportion of Phoenician vs Roman by looking at the Southwest Asian vs West Asian ratio. For the Phoenicians it is 3/4. For the Central Italians it is 1/3. Sardinians are unique in having more Southwest Asian than West Asian. Their ratio is the same as the Phoenicians by inverted. That makes them intermediary between modern Jordanians and Saudis. As a result, it can be envisaged that the Phoenicians had a higher proportion of J1 to J2 than modern Lebanese. It's actually hard to see how the Romans could have contributed any West Asian admixture at all, since they would have raised its proportion to the Southwest Asian admixture to around 50-50 (unless of course the ancient Romans had more Southwest Asian than West Asian, but I cannot imagine how this could be). So it is very possible that all the Southwest Asian and almost all the West Asian in Sardinia is of Phoenician origin. If that is the case, then around 5% of Mediterranean admixture could also be Phoenician, bring the total of autosomal DNA of Phoenician origin to approximately 16%. Let's see if similar proportions can be obtained from Y-DNA


    Y-DNA

    I have revised the Y-DNA frequencies for Sardinia, adding the Francalacci data to the previous data. The Sardinians now have an average of 4% of J1, 2.5% of R1b-V88, and 0.8% of R2, the three haplogroups that are most strongly correlated with the Phoenician homeland in modern Lebanon. They also surely brought J2, E1b1b, G2a and T, but so did Neolithic farmers and probably also the Romans. The difficulty lies in sorting out how much E1b1b and J2 is Phoenician and how much is Roman or Neolithic.

    Based on modern frequencies in Lebanon, J2 is only slightly higher than J1 (26% against 20%). That is almost exactly the same proportion as among Jewish people. Therefore there is a good chance that the Phoenicians also had a similar proportion. If that is the case, 4 to 5% of Sardinian J2 would be Phoenician. But it could be just 1.5% or 2% if the Phoenicians really had a J1/J2 proportion intermediary between modern Jordanians and Saudis.

    E1b1b is slightly lower than J1, so perhaps 3 to 3.5% of Sardinian E1b1b can be considered Phoenician.

    Haplogroup T is at 5% in Lebanon, 1/4 of J1. That would give us 1% of Phoenician T, and 0.5% of Neolithic and/or Roman.

    Haplogroup G is found at 1/3 of the frequency of J1 in Lebanon. G2a is at 12% in Sardinia, so 4% could be Phoenician.

    There is 8% of R1b in Lebanon, but according to the largest study on Lebanese Y-DNA V88 is only a small minority of the R1b lineages. Most are M269 or downstream (presumably L23). So there could be 4% of Phoenician R1b in Sardinia, the same as G2a, which is in agreement with the modern Lebanese frequencies.

    As mentioned above, R1a-Z93 and Q1a3c could also be Phoenician, but could just as well be Alanic.

    Haplogroup L, A and E1a could all have been brought by the Phoenicians. This would add up to 1.6% of Phoenician Y-DNA.

    Overall I estimate that between 16% and 24% of Sardinian paternal lineages are of Phoenician origin. It is only slightly higher than the autosomal DNA. That would mean that the Phoenicians brought their women with them to their colonies and did not intermarry a lot with local women - at least in the case of Sardinia.


    UPDATE 1:

    In addition to the Phoenician Y-DNA there is 5.5% of North African E-M81 in Sardinia. It is likely that most of it came to Sardinia when the island was part of the Phoenician/Carthaginian empire. This subclade of E1b1b can neither be considered Neolithic nor Roman. 1% of Lebanese Y-DNA is E-M81. Not enough to account for more than a tiny fraction of the 5.5%.

    E-M123, which makes up 2% of Sardinian lineages, is much higher in the Levant than in Europe, meaning that most of it could be of Phoenician origin, leaving perhaps 1.5% or 2% of Phoenician E-M78, and the rest of Neolithic origin. If that is true, then the Romans would have practically not contributed to any E1b1b in Sardinia. The alternative would be that either Neolithic farmers and/or the Phoenicians had much less E1b1b than thought. Anyway it is certain from this study that the Romans carried a much higher percentage of R1b-U152 than of E1b1b.

    As for J2, even if Neolithic farmers had none of it, the Romans could only have brought between 2% and 6% to Sardinia once the Phoenician J2 is deducted. It is still a far cry from the 10.5% of R1b-U152.


    UPDATE 2:

    Here is the breakdown of Lebanese J2 subclades.

    - J2a1 : 15.3%
    -- J2a1b (M67) : 7.8%
    - J2b (M12) : 2.7%

    Deeper subclades were not tested, but according to the FTDNA Project, J2a1h2a1-L70 appears to be the most common subclade in Lebanon.

    Here is the Sardinian breakdown:

    - J2a* (M410) : 0.6%
    -- J2a1* (L26) : 1.3%
    --- J2a1b (M67) : 1.5% (including 0.7% of J2a1b1-M92)
    --- J2a1h (L24) : 2% (including 0.4% of J2a1h2a1-L70)
    -- J2a2 (L581) : 0.8% (including 0.25% of J2a2a-P279)
    - J2b (M12) : 2% (including 1.6% of J2b2-M241)

    The three most common subclades in Sardinia, M67, L24 and M12 are all well represented in Lebanon and could therefore be of Phoenician origin. I would need more details on Lebanese subclades to determine whether L581 could also be Levantine. The problem is that all these subclades are also found on the Italian mainland, so it is of little help to separate the Phoenician from the Roman lineages.


    UPDATE 3 :

    Out of the 11% of G2a in this study, 3.3% is L91+, a subclade typical of North Africa, and also found in Sicily. Since it isn't found in Lebanon, but sometimes pops up in northern Europe, it is most likely of Neolithic origin.

    The rest of G2a includes:

    - G2a3a (M406) : 0.8% => found in Lebanon but also throughout Europe.
    - G2a3b1* (P303) : 2.1% => potentially Indo-European, could be Roman.
    -- G2a3b1a1 (U1) : 0.9% (all L13+ or L1266+) => very probably Indo-European, Celto-Italic, Roman.
    -- G2a3b1a2 (L497) : 0.5% => very strongly mirrors the distribution of R1b-P312, and especially U152. Almost certainly Roman.
    -- G2a3b1a3a (Z1903) : 2.4%
    Both Oetzi and Gok 4 had about 7% S.W.Asian, and therefore it's extremely likely that it was indeed part of the genomic structure of the Neolithic farmers who made their way into Europe.
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/04...neolithic.html

    G2a3a (M406) forms up to 50% of the G2a in the eastern Mediterranean. It is found very commonly in southern Italy. Various people have tried to tie its presence there to Greek and Balkan expansion, but it could be Neolithic, of course. Interesting that it's so low in Sardegna.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Have you considered the ancient Ligures? I think that is one of Richard Rocca's hypotheses.
    The Ligures are a very very interesting point;
    That truly deserves a thread of their own (still waiting on Taranis); - In full detail and explanation;

    In whatever scenario the Ligures are a source for R1b-U152 (and i do believe they can be considered one)
    It can not apply to Sardinia - since Sardinia was never settled by the Ligures;

    Sardinia was mostly settled (pre-Roman 238BC) by Iberians, Phoenicians, Libyans and of course the local Mountaineer tribes - Parati / Sossinati / Balari / Aconites
    who Strabo claims to be of a mythical backround - Iolaus (sons of Herakles);
    and Pausanias mentions Trojans in Sardinia;

    In this respect it is interesting to note that Bronze-age Sardinians clustered closest to Minoans and Bronze-age Iberians

    Hughey et al 2013
    http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal...comms2871.html
    http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal...ms2871_T1.html

    Whereas modern-day Sardinians are isolated and cluster the closest to neolithic corpses;


    The Ligures as a source for R1b-U152 can only apply to Corsica and East Sicily (Siculi);

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Have you considered the ancient Ligures? I think that is one of Richard Rocca's hypotheses.
    Modern Ligurians have one of the highest frequency of R1b-P312* in Italy (nearly half of all R1b according to Boattini et al.) as well as some R1b-L21. But they have one of the lowest levels of R1b-U152 in northern Italy. Considering that, it would be fairly surprising that they brought exclusively U152 to Sardinia and no P312*. Since the Ligures were not even an Italic tribe but closer to the Celts I'd say that they were originally P312 and that the U152 in modern Liguria came from the Romans and intermarriages with other north-western Italians who have much higher levels of U152.

    If there should be an alternative source of U152 to the Romans, I'd rather look at Corsicans and Tuscans settling in Sardinia since the Middle Ages. If only we could know the surnames who are U152 and their geographic distribution within Sardinia, that would greatly help determine how much could be Corscian/Tuscan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    This is now the second study in a row that confirms R1b-U152 to be ~10% in Sardinia;

    Boattini et al 2013 [82 samples] = 9.7% R1b-U152
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0065441
    Francalacci et al 2013 [1200 samples] = 10.7% R1b-U152
    (current study)

    Needless to say that only the Roman times and the Medieval times can be the source for this
    substantial (every tenth Sardinian) amount of R1b-U152 in Sardinia;


    I think the main source however; is def. the Medieval times;

    David Abulafia - The New Cambridge Medieval History: Vol.V (1999)
    As has been seen, Castel di Castro or Cagliari was founded by the Pisans in 1217, with imposing fortifications; and, even though settlement by Sards was prohibited, it rapidly grew to contain a population of several thousand (between 7,000 and 10,000 at the end of the thirteenth century).....In the same judgeship, in the south-west of Sardinia, Count Ugolino founded around 1250 the city of Iglesias, which was to grow within a couple of generations to a population not far below 10,000.....Another town which experienced growth was the reborn centre at Olbia, on the north-east coast of Sardinia; Civita or Terranova was described in a Pisan document as a quasi civitas.....This urbanisation was rendered possible by the emigration from the mainland, especially from Pisa and its contado;

    Pisa and Genoa conquered Sardinia in 1016; The Pisans were greatly crippled by the Genoese at the Battle of Meloria (1284) and 40 years later lost control over Sardinia; Thats over 300 years with massive urbanisation (Tuscan migrations) across the 13th cen.

    So in terms of R1b-U152
    - what the medieval Lombards are for Sicily the medieval Tuscans are for Sardinia;
    NW Italy (medieval Lombardy) = 32.2% R1b-U152 [161 samples] - Boattini et al 2013
    Tuscany = 37.4% R1b-U152 [123 samples] - Boattini et al 2013
    If the Francalacci study gave geographical coordinates for their samples, and a lot of the U-152 was from, say, that southern coastal area around Cagliari, it would tie it up nicely.

    It would have been interesting to see, also, if a lot of that U-152 was from the northern coast where they speak the Corsican dialect. (Gallurese) Corsican is, of course, usually considered closest to Tuscan, although since Corsica was ruled for so long by Genova, there is some Ligurian influence as well. One thing that could be done, perhaps, would be to check the snps for U-152 in Corsica versus those in Sardegna.

    It would also have been nice to see what the y dna is like in Alghero, where they still speak Catalan, especially since the historical records say that the natives (some mixture of Sardi, Liguri, Toschi) were expelled.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sa...nguage_Map.png

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Both Oetzi and Gok 4 had about 7% S.W.Asian, and therefore it's extremely likely that it was indeed part of the genomic structure of the Neolithic farmers who made their way into Europe.
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/04...neolithic.html
    Yes, you are right. My mistake. I got mixed up with the K=12, K=12a and K=12b.

    In the K=12b you cited the admixtures should be as follows:

    - Sardinians have 2.6% of Northwest African, 5.8% of Southwest Asian, 20.9% of Caucasian and 70.5% of Atlantic-Med.
    - Lebanese have 4.7% of Northwest African, 23.5% of Southwest Asian, 41.3% of Caucasian and 11.8% of Atlantic-Med.
    - Ötzi has 5.7% of Northwest African, 7.6% of Southwest Asian, 22.3% of Caucasian and 57.7% of Atlantic-Med.

    I will re-calculate the proportion of Phoenician vs Neolithic autosomes in Sardinians later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It would also have been nice to see what the y dna is like in Alghero, where they still speak Catalan, especially since the historical records say that the natives (some mixture of Sardi, Liguri, Toschi) were expelled.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sa...nguage_Map.png
    If true, then R1b would be clearly dominant (as it is in Catalonia). Interesting point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Yes, you are right. My mistake. I got mixed up with the K=12, K=12a and K=12b.

    In the K=12b you cited the admixtures should be as follows:

    - Sardinians have 2.6% of Northwest African, 5.8% of Southwest Asian, 20.9% of Caucasian and 70.5% of Atlantic-Med.
    - Lebanese have 4.7% of Northwest African, 23.5% of Southwest Asian, 41.3% of Caucasian and 11.8% of Atlantic-Med.
    - Ötzi has 5.7% of Northwest African, 7.6% of Southwest Asian, 22.3% of Caucasian and 57.7% of Atlantic-Med.

    I will re-calculate the proportion of Phoenician vs Neolithic autosomes in Sardinians later.
    These kinds of percentages highlight why I don't think modern Levantine populations are a very good proxy for the Neolithic migrants from West Asia.

    Ed. Sorry, that was off-topic.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    The Ligures are a very very interesting point;
    That truly deserves a thread of their own (still waiting on Taranis); - In full detail and explanation;

    In whatever scenario the Ligures are a source for R1b-U152 (and i do believe they can be considered one)
    It can not apply to Sardinia - since Sardinia was never settled by the Ligures;

    Sardinia was mostly settled (pre-Roman 238BC) by Iberians, Phoenicians, Libyans and of course the local Mountaineer tribes - Parati / Sossinati / Balari / Aconites
    who Strabo claims to be of a mythical backround - Iolaus (sons of Herakles);
    and Pausanias mentions Trojans in Sardinia;

    In this respect it is interesting to note that Bronze-age Sardinians clustered closest to Minoans and Bronze-age Iberians

    Hughey et al 2013
    http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal...comms2871.html
    http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal...ms2871_T1.html

    Whereas modern-day Sardinians are isolated and cluster the closest to neolithic corpses;


    The Ligures as a source for R1b-U152 can only apply to Corsica and East Sicily (Siculi);

    The U-152 in northern Sardegna could still be connected to Ligures as a hypothesis; it would just mean that the Corsicans were the intermediaries. The U-152, if any, found in Cagliari in the south could more directly be linked to Toscana (Pisa area to be precise.)

    Just as an aside, Liguria was influenced by more than one wave of people up to late in the first centuries B.C., when, genetically, things in most of Italy, with the exception perhaps of the south, seem to have frozen. Liguria is home, of course, to famous Paleolithic sites, Neolithic sites, (Cardial on the coast, but of a different variety at the mountainous margins) and then you have the mysterious Ligures, who, in addition to whatever they were carrying in terms of y dna and autosomally, absorbed the prior inhabitants. The final major movement of which I'm aware was from Gallic tribes. If I were to speculate, I would say that is the explanation for some of the more "western" clades of R1b, like DF27 and L-21.

    As for Sicily, the same thing applies as applies to Sardegna. The U-152, could, as some have hypothesized, be of Ligure origin, but just mediated by the "Lombard" settlers of medieval Sicily. "Lombards" in that context, were not only people from Lombardia, but also Liguria and Toscana.

    If I'm not mistaken, the clustering with Minoans and Iberians for the Sardinians which you mention above only has to do with uniparental markers. (Crete was settled multiple times from the Levant and West Asia, from the Neolithic to the Bronze Age.)

    We don't have autsomal analysis for either of these groups. The only autosomal analyses for European Neolithic farmers that we have are from Oetzi and Gok 4. Oetzi is indeed closest to Sardinians. Gok 4 not quite as much. If I recall correctly, Dienekes did an IBD analysis showing Gok 4's similarity to Greeks. I believe Dienekes also posted about Gok 4's similarity to northern Italians, (based on the overall ancestry calculators) but I didn't think his Gok 4 calculator was very successful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    If the Francalacci study gave geographical coordinates for their samples, and a lot of the U-152 was from, say, that southern coastal area around Cagliari, it would tie it up nicely.

    It would have been interesting to see, also, if a lot of that U-152 was from the northern coast where they speak the Corsican dialect. (Gallurese) Corsican is, of course, usually considered closest to Tuscan, although since Corsica was ruled for so long by Genova, there is some Ligurian influence as well. One thing that could be done, perhaps, would be to check the snps for U-152 in Corsica versus those in Sardegna.

    It would also have been nice to see what the y dna is like in Alghero, where they still speak Catalan, especially since the historical records say that the natives (some mixture of Sardi, Liguri, Toschi) were expelled.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sa...nguage_Map.png

    100% agree;
    If the study would have chopped the samples acc. to geographic region it would have been a much more clearer insight - Historically;

    The 82 Sardinian samples from Boattini et al 2013 came from the provinces Olbia, Nuoro and Oristano;
    Olbia/Nuoro [40 samples] = 12.5% R1b-U152
    Oristano [42 samples] = 7.1% R1b-U152

    Looks more frequent on the Eastern Coast than Western Coast;
    unfortunately no samples from the Southern Coast or Northern Coast

    Boattini et al 2013 - TableS2 (Supporting Information)
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0065441


    Alghero would be very interesting also for admixture; maybe they are the only "Sardinians" (Aragonese/Catalans) that cluster with others (+levels of inter-mixture with the local Sardinians over the centuries);
    Y-DNA i would expect a lot (or decent amount) of R-SRY2627;

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    100% agree;
    If the study would have chopped the samples acc. to geographic region it would have been a much more clearer insight - Historically;

    The 82 Sardinian samples from Boattini et al 2013 came from the provinces Olbia, Nuoro and Oristano;
    Olbia/Nuoro [40 samples] = 12.5% R1b-U152
    Oristano [42 samples] = 7.1% R1b-U152

    Looks more frequent on the Eastern Coast than Western Coast;
    unfortunately no samples from the Southern Coast or Northern Coast

    Boattini et al 2013 - TableS2 (Supporting Information)
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0065441


    Alghero would be very interesting also for admixture; maybe they are the only "Sardinians" (Aragonese/Catalans) that cluster with others (+levels of inter-mixture with the local Sardinians over the centuries);
    Y-DNA i would expect a lot (or decent amount) of R-SRY2627;
    Yes, that's really a shame Francalacci didn't at least mention which places were sampled for the study. Anyway there wasn't a single R1b-SRY2627 out of the 1200 samples tested, so it is possible that there were no sample from Catalan-speaking Alghero.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 15-08-13 at 09:11.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    .. In whatever scenario the Ligures are a source for R1b-U152 (and i do believe they can be considered one) It can not apply to Sardinia - since Sardinia was never settled by the Ligures;
    I wouldn't be quite so certain (as Angela noted earlier) of that as U152 is not the dominant haplogroup in Sardinia so there would be no requirement to have a large Ligurian presence and the flow could have come from Corsica. There are theories that the Ligures are connected with the Iberians. If you have people in NW Italy, SE France and Iberia connected, it's hard to believe none would have touched Sardinia.

    However, let us set aside the Ligures for a moment. My memory was wrong on what I thought Rocca had said or at least I can't find what he posted. More recently, this May, he wrote,
    "The earliest branches of U152 probably expanded somewhere in coastal SE France or NW Italy during the Late Copper Age. From there, there was a secondary expansion that occurred during the Bell Beaker "reflux" period. This expansion probably gave rise to Z36 somewhere in the central Alpine passes between Italy and Switzerland and L2 somewhere in the Eastern Bell Beaker Province (S. Germany, E. Switzerland, Bohemia, Hungary) and so it seems to have a 'Germanic' look to it. As part of the reflux period, NE Italy was heavily influenced by that province too (see Begleitkeramik) and formed the launch point for the Polada Culture. Many of the areas where L2 makes up a large percentage of U152 also shows U106 in important numbers.

    Z56 is a little tougher to figure out. Based on some off-modal values, it seems to have occurred after Z36 and L2. Its most important frequency probably lies somewhere between Tuscany and Modena. Z56 could have expanded with the Terramare Culture.

    Of course all subsequent expansions from those areas would have scattered the big three subclades (Urnfield, Hallstatt, La Tene, Romans). L2's main subclade (Z367 and its subclade L20) probably expanded with the RSFO Urnfield Culture in France and made its way into the isles with La Tene."
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ull=1#post6230

    Of course the bulk of the R1b-U152 in Sardinia is Z192+ which is L2- Z56- Z36-. Other than Sardinia, we have found Z192 in Tuscany, Mexico and Ireland. Yes, it could be Roman related, but as Richard cited above, U152 could easily have been in several major cultures and these ancient cultures ringed the Ligurian Sea. U152 could easily have reached Sardinia several times in prehistory and leading up to the Roman Empire era.

    I make these points in response to your post,
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    ... Needless to say that only the Roman times and the Medieval times can be the source for this substantial (every tenth Sardinian) amount of R1b-U152 in Sardinia...
    I just don't see how you can demonstrate the Roman and Medieval times as the only periods of U152 immigration into Sardinia.
    Last edited by Mikewww; 14-08-13 at 23:59.

  24. #49
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    @ Mikewww

    Would be good to know whether Mr. Rocca considers U152 to be an Indo-European or a pre-Indo-European lineage;
    By the looks of it he has no problem assigning U152 to every single culture zone from the Chalcolithic to the Iron-age; regardless of historical backround;


    I consider U152 to be Indo-European and strongly associated with the Umbrians [Terremare and Urnfield (Villanova/Golasecca)] and with the proto-Kelts [Tumulus and Urnfield (Hallstatt A-B)]
    With U152 being a substantial element among the proto-Kelts/Kelts and the most dominant element amongst the Umbrians (ITALICS);

    A common link/root that the Keltics and Italics share within the Indo-European realm is also given in Linguistics;

    David Rankin - Celts and the Classical World (1986)
    As in Celtic, so also in Italic, /p/—/k w/ becomes / kw/—/k w/ and /p/—/p/ according to dialect, as in 'quinque' and 'Pompeius'. The 'b' future, which is found in Latin and other Italic dialects, occurs also in Celtic: both Celtic and Italic retain the /samo/ suffix for the superlative degree of adjectives. These are some of the obvious points of resemblance. There are considerably more. In the range of correspondences, Latin seems to have points markedly in common with q-Celtic, whereas Oscan and Sabellian seem to be closer to p-Celtic. These and other factors could suggest an earlier geographical continuity between the ancestors of Italic and Celtic speakers.


    As for Sardinia;
    Based on the Historic events on Sardinia; i personally do not see any other source that could justify 10.7% U152 in moder-day Sardinia other than the vast Tuscan migrations of the medieval times (13th cen) -[post #36]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Both Oetzi and Gok 4 had about 7% S.W.Asian, and therefore it's extremely likely that it was indeed part of the genomic structure of the Neolithic farmers who made their way into Europe.
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/04...neolithic.html

    G2a3a (M406) forms up to 50% of the G2a in the eastern Mediterranean. It is found very commonly in southern Italy. Various people have tried to tie its presence there to Greek and Balkan expansion, but it could be Neolithic, of course. Interesting that it's so low in Sardegna.
    But Maciamo is stating G-L91 is north-African and Otzi is confirmed G-L91. How is a north-african have 7% SW Asian?

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