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Thread: New map of R1b-ht35 (L23, L51, L11, Z2103)

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    Quote Originally Posted by kostop View Post
    Thanks, much appreciated.
    Working on it!

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    The place of Armenian in the Indo-European language family: the relationship with Greek and Indo-Iranian*
    The material presented here, albeit not exhaustive, allows to preliminarily conclude that Armenian, Greek, (Phrygian) and Indo-Iranian were dialectally close to each other. Within this hypothetical dialect group, Proto-Armenian was situated between Proto-Greek (to the west) and Proto-Indo-Iranian (to the east).
    http://exadmin.matita.net/uploads/pagine/246390155_Martirosyan_PlaceArmen_JLR_2013_FINAL.pd f


    Karabakh and Syunik--

    it shows a 15% concentration of R1b1a2a in a Northern swath of Anatolia - with a peak of 25% in the middle of the swath. The studies on which the map makers drew sampled broadly in the region including Turks, Kurds, Georgians and Azeris. If you sample only Armenians, you get a concentration of 30% of R1b1a2. If you sample only Armenians from Karabakh and Syunik you get concentrations of more than 40%.
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ArmeniaDNAProject/default.aspx?section=news





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    Areas in Anatolia where Greek colonies were also had Hittites and Phrygians.

    Southwestern Anatolian languages




    The Hittites called it the Maraššantiya. It formed the western boundary of Hatti, the core land of the Hittite empire.


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    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0056775

    Table S6 you can get a broad sample data set of R1b L23[51] and then parse results with other studies showing elevated results among groups or in general regions.

    For example you can parse data set by comparing 2 or more studies,in Arabian Peninsula showing 1.67% R1b-L23 Rib in A.P. column and compare with recent Grugni et al study, in North Western Iran.

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0041252

    Groups like Azeri/Gilaki/Lurs some located in same region as Armenian R1b. and Talysh in Roewer et al study.

    Bakht 46 7% Indo-Iranian (IE) Luri Roewer et al.
    S_Tlsh 18 44% Indo-Iranian (IE) Talysh Roewer et al.
    Gilak 43 23% Indo-Iranian (IE) Gilaki Roewer et al.
    Mazan 46 15% Indo-Iranian (IE) Mazandarani Roewer et al.
    N_Tlsh 43 19% Indo-Iranian (IE) Talysh Roewer et al.

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    There is no area with 30-40 %

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    MACIAMO, I would like a map of percentages of Y-R1b-L51* and L-51 downtreams compared to Y-R1b-L23* and upstreams: it would be even more striking, would not it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Too late for Colchians? or not

    - seems like some type of maritime people from the Black Sea.
    - The southern Italy, Peloponnese, albania fits with the Greek Corinthian settlements. Maybe carried along later with phoenicians ( but I see NO central and western North African numbers
    what link with Phoenicians??? look at the Lebanon %s!

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    Looks to me like L23 was spread by an R1b form of proto-Armenians or something....I'm surprised by the frequencies across Craq and Iran....can anyone tell me more about the origins of R1b-L23?

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    An italian page is collecting samples from all Italy and this subclade is founded in Reggio Calabria and Catania (and one case near Foggia). Greek heritage?

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    L11* is too old and undefined for my purposes of Genetic Genealogy BUT I have been "Name Origin" mapping with a group under P311+ CTS4528/DF100 the results have been mapped on my project site. So far the results show a young Flemish group and an older group that splits between British Isles and Germany - this study is ongoing and dynamic so may change as we gather more samples but is interesting nonetheless.

    DF100 & CTS4528 & S14328 Private Genetic Genealogy Project Manager

    sites.google.com/site/cts4528/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    An italian page is collecting samples from all Italy and this subclade is founded in Reggio Calabria and Catania (and one case near Foggia). Greek heritage?
    I'm the case near Foggia. But there is a question: Northern Apulia wasn't colonized by greeks. The only greek colony in Apulia is Taranto, quite far from Cerignola and Andria (homeland of Montingelli, my surname). Any answers? than kyou

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    Yes i would expect this subclade more common in Taranto and the Salento (Gallipoli, Otranto, Santa Maria di Leuca was also greek colonies and in Salento there are today 10.000 greek-speaking http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoran...eca_d%27Italia) perhaps (it's my opinion eh) your ancestor on paternal side was from Taranto or Salento. It's difficult to say but expect other opinions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    Yes i would expect this subclade more common in Taranto and the Salento (Gallipoli, Otranto, Santa Maria di Leuca was also greek colonies and in Salento there are today 10.000 greek-speaking perhaps (it's my opinion eh) your ancestor on paternal side was from Taranto or Salento. It's difficult to say but expect other opinions.
    Maybe..but in Northern Apulia greeks didn't settle...any other influences? Roman bring only R1b-U152?

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    I've noticed that L23 seems to be more common where the people from Chalkis founded colonies in Magna Grecia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    I've noticed that L23 seems to be more common where the people from Chalkis founded colonies in Magna Grecia.
    Chalkis?

    (Hai facebook? così ne parliamo di là)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    This city

    Understood, but there is no greek colony in northern apulia.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Thank you for this ht35 map!
    When looking for R1b haplotype in Western Europe, you usually find ht15 maps, but not ht35, so this one is very useful.
    Thanks to the others for the insight on Anatolian history, it's very interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    this might help, it split L23 from L51 areas

    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1RI...M1U/edit?pli=1
    On page 7 of this article there are a number of haplotypes. I am particularly interested in haplotype 2 which was discovered in 8 study participants. Do you perhaps know where these participants were from? I assume Armenians are the first two modal haplotypes (1 & 2) as they are the majority. But this is mere speculation on my part.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post








    Areas in Anatolia where Greek colonies were also had Hittites and Phrygians.

    Southwestern Anatolian languages








    I think the Carians and Lycians Are apart of he Arzawaian complex that rivaled the Hittites but I could be wrong.

    Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arzawa

    On a speculative note I'm sure that the Hittites homesteaded in Western Anatolia but not in mass numbers since the Arzawians and the Hittites didn't get along all that good.

    Unless if the Hittites killed all of the Arazawian men and sold all of woman and children into slavery, doubt the R1b Z103 Hittites would have made it as far as Spain and Ireland without getting Petered out if the Hittites had kids with the Lydians a Carians

    I'm quite curious to see how the ancient Greeks and Hittites viewed the origins of the Carian and Lydians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Here is a new map showing the Proto-Indo-European R1b, as well Greek and Anatolian branches of Indo-European people, including the Hittites, Lydians, Phrygians and Armenians. The Trojans also probably belonged to this group. This branch of R1b is the first that emerged from the Pontic Steppe and therefore expanded from the Balkans and Carpathians. It includes R1b-L23/S141, its subclade L51/M412/S167, and its two subclades L11/S127/L151 (in central an northern Europe) and Z2103 (in Anatolia and Assyria). Altogether they are known as 'haplotype 35' (ht35), as opposed to the Western European 'haplotype 15', which comprises the Proto-Italo-Celtic P312/S116 and the Proto-Germanic U106/S21.


    Maciamo, i think you might need to update a map a bit?.....Kosovo has a bit more R1b than Albania



    Population
    --------------------------


    Albanians
    (Kosovar)
    Language
    ------------

    IE (Albanian)
    N
    ------


    114
    R1b
    -------


    21.10
    R1a
    -------


    4.42
    I
    -----------

    I1=5.31
    I2a2=2.65
    E-V13
    ---------


    47.37
    J
    ---------


    J2=16.7
    G
    -----


    0
    N
    ---


    0
    T
    ---


    0
    Others
    ----------------


    P[xQ,R1]=1.77
    Reference
    ----------------------


    Pericic2005[3]
    Albanians IE (Albanian) 55 18.2 9.1 I1=3.6
    I2a=14.5
    I2b=3.6
    27.5 J1=3.6
    J2=20.0
    1.8 0.0 0.0 Battaglia2008[5]

    Region/Haplogroup I1 I2*/I2a I2b R1a R1b G J2 J*/J1 E1b1b T Q N Sample size
    Albania 2 12 1.5 9 16 1.5 19.5 2 27.5 1 0 0
    Kosovo 5.5 2.5 0 4.5 21 0 16.5 0 47.5 0 0 0

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    There is no area with 30-40 %
    Yes and it's called Yamnaya!

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Yes and it's called Yamnaya!
    But not on the map. The only place where you can see that color is inside that black square.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    But not on the map. The only place where you can see that color is inside that black square.
    Yes your right; good catch

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    Interesting talk about R1b-ht35 However I'd like to turn my attention to this subclade uniformically spread throughout Northern Europe; Celto-Germanic/Slavic territory I might add. Was there ancient trade going on between Greek/Anatolian deep into the Forested "Barbarian lands" or was there an archeological culture that spread R1b-Ht35 into Northern Europe; for instance Urnfield Culture or Corded Ware Culture?

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