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Thread: New map of R1b-ht35 (L23, L51, L11, Z2103)

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    Arrow New map of R1b-ht35 (L23, L51, L11, Z2103)

    Here is a new map showing the Proto-Indo-European R1b, as well Greek and Anatolian branches of Indo-European people, including the Hittites, Lydians, Phrygians and Armenians. The Trojans also probably belonged to this group. This branch of R1b is the first that emerged from the Pontic Steppe and therefore expanded from the Balkans and Carpathians. It includes R1b-L23/S141, its subclade L51/M412/S167, and its two subclades L11/S127/L151 (in central an northern Europe) and Z2103 (in Anatolia and Assyria). Altogether they are known as 'haplotype 35' (ht35), as opposed to the Western European 'haplotype 15', which comprises the Proto-Italo-Celtic P312/S116 and the Proto-Germanic U106/S21.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Here is a new map showing the Proto-Indo-European R1b, as well Greek and Anatolian branches of Indo-European people, including the Hittites, Lydians, Phrygians and Armenians. The Trojans also probably belonged to this group. This branch of R1b is the first that emerged from the Pontic Steppe and therefore expanded from the Balkans and Carpathians. It includes R1b-L23/S141, its subclade L51/M412/S167, and its two subclades L11/S127/L151 (in central an northern Europe) and Z2103 (in Anatolia and Assyria). Altogether they are known as 'haplotype 35' (ht35), as opposed to the Western European 'haplotype 15', which comprises the Proto-Italo-Celtic P312/S116 and the Proto-Germanic U106/S21.

    Too late for Colchians? or not

    - seems like some type of maritime people from the Black Sea.
    - The southern Italy, Peloponnese, albania fits with the Greek Corinthian settlements. Maybe carried along later with phoenicians ( but I see NO central and western North African numbers
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    I hope it can unite Greeks and Albanians a bit. :)
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    If the higher frequency along the mediterranean coast can be attributed to the Greek colonies, then I think chances are high this haplogroup spread along the Danube, thinning in frequency in favour of it's derived groups upstream.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sennevini View Post
    If the higher frequency along the mediterranean coast can be attributed to the Greek colonies, then I think chances are high this haplogroup spread along the Danube, thinning in frequency in favour of it's derived groups upstream.
    I agree
    without being sure, I think since a long enough time that 2 waves had entered Europe, one by South (Dardanelles: between Abatolia and Balkans) and one by North, and then north pontic region and Danau River - the difference with the present theory is that I thought the more northern branch took the eastern coasts of Caspian Sea rather than the Caucasus path...maybe was I wrong?

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    Finally got to see this map, was very curious.

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    Do you have a version of the map showing the distribution of R1B-L11*? I am having a very hard time finding studies which explicitely differentiate my haplotype from the great sub-clades downstream (U106 and P312). There is a facebook group run by Adrian Ballard consisting entirely of L11* members. If you have this clade feel free to join if you want to learn more about our individual genealogy.

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    Irregular but widespread distribution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InukCanuck View Post
    Do you have a version of the map showing the distribution of R1B-L11*? I am having a very hard time finding studies which explicitely differentiate my haplotype from the great sub-clades downstream (U106 and P312). There is a facebook group run by Adrian Ballard consisting entirely of L11* members. If you have this clade feel free to join if you want to learn more about our individual genealogy.
    Hardly any Y-DNA studies to date have tested the L11 marker, which explains why there is so little data at the moment. In general if you don't see a map made for one particular subclade it is because there is no enough data. Even combining L23, L51 and L11 together it was very hard to find the necessary data.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Hardly any Y-DNA studies to date have tested the L11 marker, which explains why there is so little data at the moment. In general if you don't see a map made for one particular subclade it is because there is no enough data. Even combining L23, L51 and L11 together it was very hard to find the necessary data.
    this might help, it split L23 from L51 areas

    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1RI...M1U/edit?pli=1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post



    While correlation does not necessarily mean causation....

    I see Stelae People.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Hardly any Y-DNA studies to date have tested the L11 marker, which explains why there is so little data at the moment. In general if you don't see a map made for one particular subclade it is because there is no enough data. Even combining L23, L51 and L11 together it was very hard to find the necessary data.
    Busby paper on M269 had data for the following:
    • M269
    • L51 (S167)
    • M269 (L11-) -- S127-
    • L11+ (S127)
    • L11+ (U106-, P312-) -- S127+ (S21-, S116-)


    You could use that to provide some data points for L11*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Here is a new map showing the Proto-Indo-European R1b, as well Greek and Anatolian branches of Indo-European people, including the Hittites, Lydians, Phrygians and Armenians. The Trojans also probably belonged to this group. This branch of R1b is the first that emerged from the Pontic Steppe and therefore expanded from the Balkans and Carpathians. It includes R1b-L23/S141, its subclade L51/M412/S167, and its two subclades L11/S127/L151 (in central an northern Europe) and Z2103 (in Anatolia and Assyria). Altogether they are known as 'haplotype 35' (ht35), as opposed to the Western European 'haplotype 15', which comprises the Proto-Italo-Celtic P312/S116 and the Proto-Germanic U106/S21
    Thanks for the map.

    To what (which data) do you attribute the light frequency spot in Turkey right above Iraq? This looks like old Greater Armenia lands and we've found a lot of R1b-L23xL51 among Armenians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Thanks for the map.

    To what (which data) do you attribute the light frequency spot in Turkey right above Iraq? This looks like old Greater Armenia lands and we've found a lot of R1b-L23xL51 among Armenians.
    The area you're talking about is NorthWest Kurdistan. Original land of the ancient Kurds (Sumerians, Mitanni etc.) and not Armenians. Kurdish ancestors like Sumerians who later became Mitanni (and proto-Iranic Mitanni became the Iranic Medes, direct ancestors of the Kurds) lived already there, before Armenian ethnicity existed. So, nothing 'Armenian' about this land..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    The area you're talking about is NorthWest Kurdistan Original land of the ancient Kurds (Sumerians, Mitanni etc.) and not Armenians.
    Either there were Sumerians or Mitanni, or ancient Kurds. What is the date we can read Kurd name?
    Your statement doesn't make sense. There were no Kurds back then, no Kurdish culture either, and no Kurds name. There might be some continuity from Mitanni and Sumerians to Kruds, but let's stress "some". Exactly by same logic there might be some continuity from Sumerians to Armenians, and let's stick with "some".
    Mitanni (and proto-Iranic Mitanni became the Iranic Medes, direct ancestors of the Kurds) lived already there, before Armenian ethnicity existed.
    And before Kurdish ethnicity existed, right?

    Get off your Kurdish horse and try being objective for a change. Give other ethnicities some room to live too, because for the rest of us being Kurd is no more special that being Armenian.

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    Yeah, I do agree with you that all ethnicities around South Caucasus have some degree of Sumerian DNA in them, since there's lots of J2a in that region. So, of course Kurds and Armenians share some (J2a) ancestors. Most folks in West Asia have Kurdish DNA.

    According to me Sumerians belonged for a very important part to hg. J2a and probably R1a. Sumerians lived before Mitanni. So after Sumerians stopped calling themselves Sumerians they became known as Mitanni. I believe that Mitanni also belonged for a very important part to hg. J2a and R1a. Like Sumerians, also Mitanni were SUN worshipers. The Medes came later, right after the (ethnic) name of Mitanni vanished from Kurdistan. The first person that called himself a 'Mede' was born in the same area where the last Mitanni was disappeared (extinct). The Mitanni passed their haplogroups to the Medes. Later in history the Medes gave birth to modern-day Kurds. And Kurds still have those hg. J2a and R1a-Z93 of the ancient Sumerians.
    There're many links between native Kurdish religions (Yezidism, Mithraism (Zoroastrians) etc.) and the religion of the Sumerians. All those people were/are the SUN 'worshippers'.
    Kurdish culture, tradition is Iranic. Kurdish language is modern Iranic language. So at the time of the Mitanni and the Medes, there was already a 'proto-Kurdish' culture/tradition and a 'proto-Kurdish' language.

    The Sumerians in Kurdistan became Mitanni, the Mitanni became Medes, and the Medes became Kurds. At the time when Armenia became known in Europe by the Roman Empire, parts of Kurdistan (NorthEast Anatolia) and proto-Kurdish people were vassal regions of Armenia. But the majority of the citizens in those vassal states were Kurds.
    I believe that right after the name of the Medes disappeared from history their children became known as Kurds (KurManji = sons of Medes).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww
    To what (which data) do you attribute the light frequency spot in Turkey right above Iraq? This looks like old Greater Armenia lands and we've found a lot of R1b-L23xL51 among Armenians.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    The area you're talking about is NorthWest Kurdistan. Original land of the ancient Kurds (Sumerians, Mitanni etc.) and not Armenians. Kurdish ancestors like Sumerians who later became Mitanni (and proto-Iranic Mitanni became the Iranic Medes, direct ancestors of the Kurds) lived already there, before Armenian ethnicity existed. So, nothing 'Armenian' about this land..
    Sorry, I'm not trying to take land away from anyone. I was just looking at the map of the old Kingdom of Armenia which overlaps into the geo-cultural Kurdistan region (in different timeframes). There are other overlaps too.


    Regardless, I still have the question - what is causing the lighter showing in the general vicinity of Eastern/Central Turkey on Maciamo's map?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Sorry, I'm not trying to take land away from anyone. I was just looking at the map of the old Kingdom of Armenia which overlaps into the geo-cultural Kurdistan region (in different timeframes). There are other overlaps too.
    And I'm sorry for my overreaction.

    Regardless, I still have the question - what is causing the lighter showing in the general vicinity of Eastern/Central Turkey on Maciamo's map?
    The relative high distribution of I2a & R1a (+ R2a) in North Kurdistan is pushing the average distribution of R1b down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    The relative high distribution of I2a & R1a (+ R2a) in North Kurdistan is pushing the average distribution of R1b down.
    Thanks. What study are you looking at to see this data?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post


    Regardless, I still have the question - what is causing the lighter showing in the general vicinity of Eastern/Central Turkey on Maciamo's map?
    The Cimmerians occupied cappodocia where this "spot " is, FROM anywhere between 700BC-600BC to later . They brought I2a1 into the area as this was their main marker.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimmerians#cite_note-2

    http://www.v-stetsyuk.name/en/Scythian/Cimmer.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Here is a new map showing the Proto-Indo-European R1b, as well Greek and Anatolian branches of Indo-European people, including the Hittites, Lydians, Phrygians and Armenians. The Trojans also probably belonged to this group.
    Is there any ancient y-dna data that confirms this?
    Which population brought ht35 to Greece? Was it the Mycenaeans, Arcadians, Ionians or the Dorians? Also, what about the Pelasgians? Little is known about them, and according to historians the Pelasgian population mixed with the subsequent waves of migrants, therefore it is hard to know who they were genetically. And if the Ionians or the Dorians brought R1b to Greece, then who brought J2? (which is carried by a huge part of the population, ancient and modern as indicated by its presence in most areas associated with ancient Greek colonisation).
    I am not questioning or doubting your statement, just thinking out loudly, as I have been wondering about this for some time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kostop View Post
    Is there any ancient y-dna data that confirms this?
    Which population brought ht35 to Greece? Was it the Mycenaeans, Arcadians, Ionians or the Dorians? Also, what about the Pelasgians? Little is known about them, and according to historians the Pelasgian population mixed with the subsequent waves of migrants, therefore it is hard to know who they were genetically. And if the Ionians or the Dorians brought R1b to Greece, then who brought J2? (which is carried by a huge part of the population, ancient and modern as indicated by its presence in most areas associated with ancient Greek colonisation).
    I am not questioning or doubting your statement, just thinking out loudly, as I have been wondering about this for some time.
    Yes there are links to show. Under ten post count will not allow me to show links. If you like I can pm you. However the map should be updated especially the Eastern regions, like Mede proper where no R1b L51 has been found. It is important to make this distinction as it is a different branch altogether found also in Africa at various elevated frequencies unlike R1b Z2103. R1b Z2103 is found in: Ancient Mede proper/Ancient Assyrians /Ancient Greece proper including Lashitti plateau, and Aegean Islands / Ancient Anatolia/Armenia proper /Albania/ Bulgaria/Moldavia/Ukraine(also called Trans-Dniestr or Transdniestria region)/Komi/Ossetian, Digor/Bashkir/Northern Pakistan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Yes there are links to show. Under ten post count will not allow me to show links. If you like I can pm you. However the map should be updated especially the Eastern regions, like Mede proper where no R1b L51 has been found. It is important to make this distinction as it is a different branch altogether found also in Africa at various elevated frequencies unlike R1b Z2103. R1b Z2103 is found in: Ancient Mede proper/Ancient Assyrians /Ancient Greece proper including Lashitti plateau, and Aegean Islands / Ancient Anatolia/Armenia proper /Albania/ Bulgaria/Moldavia/Ukraine(also called Trans-Dniestr or Transdniestria region)/Komi/Ossetian, Digor/Bashkir/Northern Pakistan.
    That is very interesting. If you could pm the links it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by kostop View Post
    That is very interesting. If you could pm the links it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
    Various studies have different size data sets. In order to see spikes you can compare multiple studies. For example.

    Im not at 10 posts so it restricts me from posting links here is an example. Yes will p.m.

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    Points: 7,495, Level: 25
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 55
    Overall activity: 7.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - Z2110
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H28a

    Ethnic group
    Greek
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Various studies have different size data sets. In order to see spikes you can compare multiple studies. For example.

    Im not at 10 posts so it restricts me from posting links here is an example. Yes will p.m.
    Thanks, much appreciated.

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