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Thread: Etruscans, where from, Anatolia, Africa or Italy?

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    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
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    Etruscans, where from, Anatolia, Africa or Italy?



    New paper which supports Etruscans came from ancient Libya and not Lydia

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2013...-anatolia.html

    there is also other internal links.

    Some have said that Etruscans have always been in Italy
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    There is nothing about Libya. It was a comment on the blog by another user, and not in Dienekes' post. The article is about indigenous or Anatolian.

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    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebAmerican View Post
    There is nothing about Libya. It was a comment on the blog by another user, and not in Dienekes' post. The article is about indigenous or Anatolian.
    I agree with you, but the guy always quotes from Jewish biblical books.
    Similar to this above theory from the book
    The Cities and Cemeteries of Etruria

    By George Dennis

    States that the first inhabitants of Sardinia was the libyans, then etruscans, then greeks and lastly Iberians. It was only under Tiberius that the "etruscans" claimed they where from Lydia .............well that's another story

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    The stupidest thread I've ever seen. The Etruscans came from Lydia, western turkey, not Libya, and they set foot in Tuscany.

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    The "Etruscans where Libyans", now that is about the stupidest thing I think I've ever heard.

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    you need to open your eyes when talking about the ancients and throw away modern national borders. the libyans in the ancient times where a mix of egyptian, phoenician and cyrene greeks.

    I also doubt that the etruscans where from Libya even more so since lately they have been assigned as coming from modern Georgia. The lydian connection seems dead now.
    Ancient egyptian and greek scholars state


    It is possible, therefore, that the "Tursha" were the " Turseni," and that in consequence of this defeat they left their native land and founded the Etruscan colonies on the west coast of Italy — which were commenced about that time. Dr. Deecke has already pointed out the probability that the Tuirsa who attacked Egypt by sea in the time of Ramses III (twentieth dynasty, 980-810 B.C.) were the Turseni or Etruscans. They are represented on the paintings with pointed beards and hel- mets of Etruscan form.§ The very early signs of Egyptian culture visible in ancient Etruria, on which Deecke lays stress, may be explained by the proximity of the Libyo-Etruscans — the Tuirsa — to the Nile valley before they founded their Italian colonies. It is quite sure that the main body of the army of Mar-ajui was composed of the blonde type of the Berbers, as the Egyptian name applied to them on the monuments is thuheni, "the light-colored or fair- corn plexiohed people."

    Again, while I agree my opinion of etruscans came more easterly, the lesson is to avoid modern ideas of people based on todays borders

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    The Lydian connection is not "dead" it doesn't matter where in the Middle East or Aegean region they came from, at one point, they established themselves ( these per-Etruscan types)'in western Anatolia as the "Lydians", so they may very well have come from Georgia or most probably turkey, before arriving in italy. Who knows, they may have been a Greek branch of middle eastern substratum types, such as Achaean or Ionian Greeks who are considered "pelasgians", a barbaric and non-Hellenic type of Greeks from the Middle East. What is known is that the fathers of tuscany's Etruscans was probably a man of Lydian origin (from western turkey).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    It is possible, therefore, that the "Tursha" were the " Turseni," and that in consequence of this defeat they left their native land and founded the Etruscan colonies on the west coast of Italy — which were commenced about that time. Dr. Deecke has already pointed out the probability that the Tuirsa who attacked Egypt by sea in the time of Ramses III (twentieth dynasty, 980-810 B.C.) were the Turseni or Etruscans. They are represented on the paintings with pointed beards and hel- mets of Etruscan form.§ The very early signs of Egyptian culture visible in ancient Etruria, on which Deecke lays stress, may be explained by the proximity of the Libyo-Etruscans — the Tuirsa — to the Nile valley before they founded their Italian colonies. It is quite sure that the main body of the army of Mar-ajui was composed of the blonde type of the Berbers, as the Egyptian name applied to them on the monuments is thuheni, "the light-colored or fair- corn plexiohed people"
    The theory about the Etruscans being Blonde (Berbers) Libyans is an old one;
    There is also a theory about the Etruscans being one of the Sea-Peoples [Teresh]

    But im sticking to the ancient-Greek sources Herodotus / Dionysius / Hellanicus that place the Etruscans/Thyrrenians in the East Aegean [Lydia/Thessaly] as the Pelasgian Tyrsenoi;


    also the study you quote doesnt mention anything about the Blonde Berber theory; it just questions the Etruscan-Anatolian link based on modern Tuscan DNA;

    Tassi et al 2013
    In this study, we tested alternative models of Etruscan origins by Approximate Bayesian Computation methods, comparing levels of genetic diversity in the mtDNAs of modern and ancient populations with those obtained by millions of computer simulations. The results show that the observed genetic similarities between modern Tuscans and Anatolians cannot be attributed to an immigration wave from the East leading to the onset of the Etruscan culture in Italy. Genetic links between Tuscany and Anatolia do exist, but date back to a remote stage of prehistory, possibly but not necessarily to the spread of farmers during the Neolithic period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    The theory about the Etruscans being Blonde (Berbers) Libyans is an old one;
    There is also a theory about the Etruscans being one of the Sea-Peoples [Teresh]

    But im sticking to the ancient-Greek sources Herodotus / Dionysius / Hellanicus that place the Etruscans/Thyrrenians in the East Aegean [Lydia/Thessaly] as the Pelasgian Tyrsenoi;


    also the study you quote doesnt mention anything about the Blonde Berber theory; it just questions the Etruscan-Anatolian link based on modern Tuscan DNA;

    Tassi et al 2013
    In this study, we tested alternative models of Etruscan origins by Approximate Bayesian Computation methods, comparing levels of genetic diversity in the mtDNAs of modern and ancient populations with those obtained by millions of computer simulations. The results show that the observed genetic similarities between modern Tuscans and Anatolians cannot be attributed to an immigration wave from the East leading to the onset of the Etruscan culture in Italy. Genetic links between Tuscany and Anatolia do exist, but date back to a remote stage of prehistory, possibly but not necessarily to the spread of farmers during the Neolithic period.
    You know how theories work, when theory A is replaced by theory B and later theory B is replaced by theory C, then theory A is revisited


    Comparison of Libyan personal names from Corippus with Etruscan personal names from Corssen : LIBYAN. ETRUSCAN.
    afun, afuna.
    alantas, aledna.
    ancus, ancan.
    anestus, anes.
    arcan, arcenzios.
    azan, ezunu.
    bezina, felzinal.
    buranto, fardana.
    caggun, caicun.


    Something we can think about.


    I am against this theory of libyan is Etruscan due to etruscan having very little of the ancient libya E-V65 marker

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    If Etruscan and Libyan names are in fact similar, this probably has a Phoenician explanation or derivation through Anatolian.

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    Sile's theory seems logical, Similar names etc.,

    Could there be a misinterpretation, cause Lydia Lybia is very similar too?

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    Big misinterpretation. The Etruscans who changed their name to Tyrrhenians (after their leader tyyrhenus) derived from their Lydian ancestors that came from western turkey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bardhyl View Post
    Sile's theory seems logical, Similar names etc.,

    Could there be a misinterpretation, cause Lydia Lybia is very similar too?
    That the Tyrsenoi came from Lydia is from Herodotus and he is very specific about Thyrrenus and his people sailing/departing from Smyrna [I/XCIV]; Tyrsenoi was also the Greek designation of Pelasgians - usually found in the Aegean area;

    The story about the blonde warriors called Tuirsa from Lybia being the Tyrsenoi is mostly a construct;
    The Tuirsa were never even described as being from Lybia in the first place - they are described to have attacked Ramses III Egypt as pirates coming from the sea (abroad);

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    That the Tyrsenoi came from Lydia is from Herodotus and he is very specific about Thyrrenus and his people sailing/departing from Smyrna [I/XCIV]; Tyrsenoi was also the Greek designation of Pelasgians - usually found in the Aegean area;

    The story about the blonde warriors called Tuirsa from Lybia being the Tyrsenoi is mostly a construct;
    The Tuirsa were never even described as being from Lybia in the first place - they are described to have attacked Ramses III Egypt as pirates coming from the sea (abroad);
    what about these 2013 papers

    Genetic evidence does not support an etruscan origin in Anatolia

    Francesca Tassi et al.

    The debate on the origins of Etruscans, documented in central Italy between the eighth century BC and the first century AD, dates back to antiquity. Herodotus described them as a group of immigrants from Lydia, in Western Anatolia, whereas for Dionysius of Halicarnassus they were an indigenous population. Dionysius' view is shared by most modern archeologists, but the observation of similarities between the (modern) mitochondrial DNAs (mtDNAs) of Turks and Tuscans was interpreted as supporting an Anatolian origin of the Etruscans. However, ancient DNA evidence shows that only some isolates, and not the bulk of the modern Tuscan population, are genetically related to the Etruscans. In this study, we tested alternative models of Etruscan origins by Approximate Bayesian Computation methods, comparing levels of genetic diversity in the mtDNAs of modern and ancient populations with those obtained by millions of computer simulations. The results show that the observed genetic similarities between modern Tuscans and Anatolians cannot be attributed to an immigration wave from the East leading to the onset of the Etruscan culture in Italy. Genetic links between Tuscany and Anatolia do exist, but date back to a remote stage of prehistory, possibly but not necessarily to the spread of farmers during the Neolithic period.

    Link

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    what about these 2013 papers

    Genetic evidence does not support an etruscan origin in Anatolia

    Francesca Tassi et al.

    The debate on the origins of Etruscans, documented in central Italy between the eighth century BC and the first century AD, dates back to antiquity. Herodotus described them as a group of immigrants from Lydia, in Western Anatolia, whereas for Dionysius of Halicarnassus they were an indigenous population. Dionysius' view is shared by most modern archeologists, but the observation of similarities between the (modern) mitochondrial DNAs (mtDNAs) of Turks and Tuscans was interpreted as supporting an Anatolian origin of the Etruscans. However, ancient DNA evidence shows that only some isolates, and not the bulk of the modern Tuscan population, are genetically related to the Etruscans. In this study, we tested alternative models of Etruscan origins by Approximate Bayesian Computation methods, comparing levels of genetic diversity in the mtDNAs of modern and ancient populations with those obtained by millions of computer simulations. The results show that the observed genetic similarities between modern Tuscans and Anatolians cannot be attributed to an immigration wave from the East leading to the onset of the Etruscan culture in Italy. Genetic links between Tuscany and Anatolia do exist, but date back to a remote stage of prehistory, possibly but not necessarily to the spread of farmers during the Neolithic period.

    Link
    addressed on post#8 / 03-08-13

    Tassi et al 2013
    In this study, we tested alternative models of Etruscan origins by Approximate Bayesian Computation methods, comparing levels of genetic diversity in the mtDNAs of modern and ancient populations with those obtained by millions of computer simulations. The results show that the observed genetic similarities between modern Tuscans and Anatolians cannot be attributed to an immigration wave from the East leading to the onset of the Etruscan culture in Italy. Genetic links between Tuscany and Anatolia do exist, but date back to a remote stage of prehistory, possibly but not necessarily to the spread of farmers during the Neolithic period.


    It simply states that the Tuscan - Anatolian link is older (pos. Neolithic) than the Historic Pelasgian migration recorded; How certain that is i dont know; and how the blonde Libyans are supposed to factor into all this (the Anatolian link / Tassi et al 2013) i also do not know;

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    And then there are other studies that DO show a genetic link, and the stories as Nobody1 pointed out of the Lydian's having left turkey from Smyrna. And the stories of founders of colonies all along the Swahili coast including Zanzibar having come from the port of Hormuz (Hormuz straight) near Oman spreading T in these tribes as far away as Madagascar and Mogadishu.

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    This migration took place long afterwards of course. In what concerns the Lydians, I believe their motivation for not having settled nearby Greece was that they were heavily associated with Troy and their ancient Hittite derivatives, thus the Greeks would have been their enemies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John123 View Post
    This migration took place long afterwards of course. In what concerns the Lydians, I believe their motivation for not having settled nearby Greece was that they were heavily associated with Troy and their ancient Hittite derivatives, thus the Greeks would have been their enemies.
    how did they know Toscany? Why Other Toscans let them settle in their lands? How many of them were? How did they get there?All these questins lead one to beleve that Toscan were a native of Italy.

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    They didn't know Tuscany. They simply landed there and found the environment to be favourable to Their needs in terms of space and relative land fertility. The Etruscans sacked 300 Umbrian cities, to give you an idea of how. They got there by boat, they did so before Greek colonizations of magna graecia but after the Phoenicians sailed the Mediterranean.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John123 View Post
    They didn't know Tuscany. They simply landed there and found the environment to be favourable to Their needs in terms of space and relative land fertility. The Etruscans sacked 300 Umbrian cities, to give you an idea of how. They got there by boat, they did so before Greek colonizations of magna graecia but after the Phoenicians sailed the Mediterranean.
    The origin of the Etruscans have been explained in the Vth century: Hellanicos of Lesbos for the Pelasgian hypothesis, Herodotus for the Lydian origin. These stories are clearly considered as legends by the present scholars.
    On the opposite, Dyonisius claimed they were autochtonal, as he wanted to show that Rome was a Greek town, and the only one.
    All these stories are of the same type than the stories claiming Rome has been founded by the Trojans or Caesar decsended from Venus, and the multitude of other fanciful stories.

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    And where did the pelasgians come from, when they landed in Crete for example? Western turkey, the pelasgians invaded the Mediterranean (brought some of their people) to the Mediterranean via turkey.

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    Historically, there must have been across Greece, 1. An invasion of people from Turkey (look at how high % J2a haplotypes there are on Crete, pelasgians) and I postulate 2. Egypt (the danaids). These were two different groups bringing independently J2 and E3b towards Greece. As I've postulated many times Minoan culture (centered on Crete) was predominantly J2/J2a and later/conquering Mycenean culture was E-V13 (E3b)/J2 (J2b predominance).The Dorians where likely indo-European R1 people, I suspect R1b.

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    Minoan: J2a
    Mycenean: E-V13/J2b
    Dorian: The R1 arrivals (R1b) postulation is in parentheses.

    I think the "Aegyptus" and danaids story is legend as it was a progressive (historical) rather than direct migration. A movement over many generations from egypt towards the levant, eventually ending up in Anatolia and then migrating directly to the southern Balkan Peninsula

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    what about these 2013 papers

    Genetic evidence does not support an etruscan origin in Anatolia

    Francesca Tassi et al.

    The debate on the origins of Etruscans, documented in central Italy between the eighth century BC and the first century AD, dates back to antiquity. Herodotus described them as a group of immigrants from Lydia, in Western Anatolia, whereas for Dionysius of Halicarnassus they were an indigenous population. Dionysius' view is shared by most modern archeologists, but the observation of similarities between the (modern) mitochondrial DNAs (mtDNAs) of Turks and Tuscans was interpreted as supporting an Anatolian origin of the Etruscans. However, ancient DNA evidence shows that only some isolates, and not the bulk of the modern Tuscan population, are genetically related to the Etruscans. In this study, we tested alternative models of Etruscan origins by Approximate Bayesian Computation methods, comparing levels of genetic diversity in the mtDNAs of modern and ancient populations with those obtained by millions of computer simulations. The results show that the observed genetic similarities between modern Tuscans and Anatolians cannot be attributed to an immigration wave from the East leading to the onset of the Etruscan culture in Italy. Genetic links between Tuscany and Anatolia do exist, but date back to a remote stage of prehistory, possibly but not necessarily to the spread of farmers during the Neolithic period.

    Link
    what we need is ancient DNA from well identified Etruscans sepultures and even like that we are not sure the Etrucans nobility did not incorporate members of the autochtonous previous elite: it seems Etruscans were firstable a small sized elite population having taken the strong side over Villanova culture people, among whom there was surely already some heterogeneity so... and had they a well balanced males-females original population at first arrival? it looks as everybody have some agenda in these tudies?... I prefer, waiting more sure data, believe in an pre-indo-european speaking population (language close to one of the Caucasus ones?) from Western Anatolia or even from North Levant - as a whole the present days Toscan population shows less lonks with these eatsern countries than Southern Italians or Greeks -

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    Pelasgian is a confusing term, used for I-Eans and not I-Eans -
    just for the pleasure I recall the Alinei thesis, seeing the Etruscans as people came through land and speaking a kind of Turkic language which some terms were inbodied in today magyar language of Hungary - the only link I see and it seems very uncertain, is the hardening of stops in magyar, in the rhaetic ancient zone and the non-sonorization of romance in central and southern Italy, contrary to castillan, portuguese, french, walloon - the present day rhaetic lands knew big changes during history I think, albeit in some valleys, beacuse the Celts and Ligurians were neigbouring the Rhaetians - the today Switzerland romance language are closer to gallo-italic and french dialects concerning this sounds problems, than to central Italians... by the way, romanian did not sonorize as italian - with a very great imagination we could figure out a way from Anatolia through Danau river unti the Alps and then southwards into Italy, replacing "turkic" by something else, non I-Ean???... speculations

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