Updated phylogenetic trees of R1b-L21, R1b-DF27 and R1b-U152

[Mikewww]

Mike,

To avoid confusion references to "Northern Ireland" (a political construct of the 1920's) shouldn't be used when talking about the Viking age. Aside from that it's well know fact that the Vikings suffered several military defeats in both Ulster and Connacht. So much so that you find no long lasting Viking settlements north of Dublin and none what so ever in either Connacht or Ulster. All of the Viking settlements which later grew into towns are in Leinster and Munster. Namely:

• Dublin
• Wicklow (town)
• Arklow -- co. Wicklow
• Wexford (Town)
• Waterford City
• Cork City
• Limerick City

These are areas that are "thin" on M222. Munster at the time is probably dominated by CTS4466 (Eoghanacht) and L226 (Dál gCais) dynastically, whereas Z255/L159.2 looks like relevant dynastical lineage in Leinster. If we go on the research about M222 it appears linked to the Connachta and Uí Néill.

Dublin as a geographic location survived as a Viking settlement mainly as it was on locus of a boundary between two provincial Kingdoms. It's also probable that it was one of the biggest (if not the biggest) slave markets in Western Europe during the period.

-Paul
(DF41+)
(DF41+)

You are right, I didn't intend to use the Northern Ireland term as the country but rather a general geographic description.

As far as slave trading goes. I've asked these questions in other discussions before:
1) what estimates do we have on number of male slaves exported by Vikings from Ireland?
2) what percentage do we think actually went to Scandinavia?
3) what was the population of Scandinavia at the time?

In generalities, in the past I've been told that women were more the target then men, most slaves were sold for work abroad and not back in Scandinavia. Scandinavia wasn't really a rich area at the time.

Given the non-elite status of slaves, possible lower adaptability to climate and other factors in Scandinavia, I just don't see how we can get such high numbers of R1b-P312 (or just L21) from the British Isles get into Scandinavia from slave trading.

 

[martiko]

Time for an annual update of the R1b phylogeny. I have made 3 separate trees for these ever-growing subclades of the Celtic and Italic branches of R1b. I hope it's clearer than the older version.

You can see larger versions here.

where is the branch L11+ / P312* +/DF27-/U152-/L21- M65+, the iberic Celtic, the one who seems to be at the origin of the campaniforme (bell beaker culture).
It can be is a too small branch to be in consideration.

 

[Cheerful_badger]

Hi, I am quite interested in the point you (Mikewww) are making about P312 being both IE and non-IE. I do not think I have read that anywhere else in this forum but it may be a well-documented view on this P312 issue, I do not know. I take it that by IE you refer to a set of languages as well as peoples. Can you elaborate on this? Being P312 myself with all subclades tested negative so far I would like to be able to estimate whether I descend from IE or non-IE stock although this might be a long shot and the word 'stock' might not be appropriate. Anyway more input from you would be welcome. Thanks a bunch in advance for your reply.

 

[Mikewww]

Hi, I am quite interested in the point you (Mikewww) are making about P312 being both IE and non-IE. I do not think I have read that anywhere else in this forum but it may be a well-documented view on this P312 issue, I do not know. I take it that by IE you refer to a set of languages as well as peoples. Can you elaborate on this? Being P312 myself with all subclades tested negative so far I would like to be able to estimate whether I descend from IE or non-IE stock although this might be a long shot and the word 'stock' might not be appropriate. Anyway more input from you would be welcome. Thanks a bunch in advance for your reply.

I'm not quite sure what part of anything I've said that you are citing here. I'm a little nervous about your interpretation of something I've said. Obviously, today there are P312+ all over the world. The majority are surely found in IE speaking peoples, but some are not.

That doesn't mean the first P312 or early P312 men were speaking IE or not though. My guess is they were but a lot of that depends on the origin and timeframe of the first P312 people. There is a very strong correlation between where P312 frequencies are highest and Italic and Celtic languages (both IE) once dominated.

 

[Mikewww]

BTW, this the year we should see an unveiling of the L21 tree. We are only seeing a skeletal outline of it now. Here is the current draft version. Chromo 2 has added some nice definition under M222 in particular.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17907527/R1b-L21_Tree_Chart.pdf

We've got over 20 FGC NGS (Next Generation Sequencing) and over 340 FTDNA Big Y NGS tests in the hopper so we'll know a lot more over the next several months and tree will have many more branches.

 

[MOESAN]

are not these trees difference of "richness" the result of the interest put on them by some genealogists?

 

[Mikewww]

are not these trees difference of "richness" the result of the interest put on them by some genealogists?

I don't understand how you are using the word "richness" in this question. Please explain.

 

[Kovijani]

Hi my Y dna is R-cts4188. My surename is Kovacs, and iam hungarian. My parental line came from these days Slovakia in the late 18. Century. Now i am trying to fill the gap beetween the Dna and family info. Any additional info anybody? Thank you advanced!

 

[LeBrok]

Welcome to Eupedia Kovijani.

 

[martiko]

Hi my Y dna is R-cts4188. My surename is Kovacs, and iam hungarian. My parental line came from these days Slovakia in the late 18. Century. Now i am trying to fill the gap beetween the Dna and family info. Any additional info anybody? Thank you advanced!

Hello!
I am also cts4528 , most of this marqueur between Germany, Holland and Denmark but also lot on east coast English and Devon.

 

[martiko]

Hi my Y dna is R-cts4188. My surename is Kovacs, and iam hungarian. My parental line came from these days Slovakia in the late 18. Century. Now i am trying to fill the gap beetween the Dna and family info. Any additional info anybody? Thank you advanced!

sorry, I frowned upon, in fact you are a subclade of P312/DF27 north-south group, group that ?tendde Baltic up to the Iberian peninsula along the Atlantic seaboard.