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Thread: DF81 subclade under DF27

  1. #1
    Junior Member realdealt's Avatar
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    DF81 subclade under DF27

    I was looking at the R1bP312xL21 Haplotypes spreadsheet created by Mike W in the DF27 Yahoo Group and he has done a great job of sorting the various subclades (and potential candidates) under P312. Of interest to me is the group that is potentially DF81+. Looking at the haplotypes, I see what looks like some very telling marker values that possibly identify DF81 individuals.

    Those values are DYS458=16, DYS487=14 and possibly DYS449=28. A value of DYS439=11 also appears noteworthy. Of course these values are not a definitive indicator of DF81 as they have also been found in at least two R-U152 persons.

    To date, there have been four persons of Iberian ancestry who tested positive for DF81. The surnames are Uriarte, Zúñiga, Tello, and Zambrano (my ancestral lineage). In the group of potential and confirmed DF81+ individuals, the surnames are a majority Iberian with many being Basque. Several non-Iberian descent individuals have tested negative. With the surnames that were confirmed positive it appears this may be emerging as a Basque subclade. More testing is needed and I would encourage those individuals who are R1b-P312 and especially in the subclade DF27 having this combination of markers to get themselves tested for DF81.

  2. #2
    Junior Member realdealt's Avatar
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    Out of curiosity......has anyone ordered a SNP test for DF81 since I posted the message about it?

  3. #3
    Junior Member realdealt's Avatar
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    There has now been a fifth person with a DF81+ result....a Rodríguez. So far all those positive for DF81 have been of Iberian origin and likely of Basque descent. It is suspected that this Rodríguez may be connected to a Basque lineage with the dual surname Rodríguez-Zambrano which settled in Andalucía. There were also Rodríguez-Zambrano individuals in Mexico in the 1500s and this Rodríguez line traces out of Mexico.

    This makes the DF81+ group having Uriarte, Zúñiga, Tello, Zambrano and Rodríguez.

  4. #4
    martiko martiko's Avatar
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    european : basqueR1b/IberianI2b
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    the DF27 group were vascons, but basques is only a branch of this group which settled a geographical, cultural and linguistic aerie, certainly they are emblematic but they are not the unique parents of this group.

  5. #5
    Junior Member realdealt's Avatar
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    Are you saying that DF27 originates with the Vascones? There are many DF27 in other areas....UK, France, etc. What is your data and source for Vascones being DF27?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by realdealt View Post
    Are you saying that DF27 originates with the Vascones? There are many DF27 in other areas....UK, France, etc. What is your data and source for Vascones being DF27?
    Yes, perhaps three quarters of France is over 15%, Belgium and the GB may be 10% and the Iberian Peninsula between 30 and 50%. Basque perhaps 60%. In the East, less than 5%

  7. #7
    martiko martiko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by realdealt View Post
    Are you saying that DF27 originates with the Vascones? There are many DF27 in other areas....UK, France, etc. What is your data and source for Vascones being DF27?
    This is the group that has the highest percentage of DF27

    But also the angles (old english), Gauls of the west (old french) but more this group is much prevalent in the center of Spain at the time of the Reconquista, on the contrary before there was rare and then up to 20 % 25% of R1b. Particularly in Andalusia who was a victim of ethnic cleansing a very high percentage for Y DNA R1b more df27.
    Among the basque who have 85/100% of R1b depending on the region, df27 it is the first group before L21; by against absence almost of U152, M65 and U106.
    M65 is not basque and is not of DF27. M65 and celtic iberian (portugal , high frequency)

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    Quote Originally Posted by gervais View Post
    Yuse es, perhaps three quarters of France is over 15%, Belgium and the GB may be 10% and the Iberian Peninsula between 30 and 50%. Basque perhaps 60%. In the East, less than 5%
    Sorry, I suppose you cites here percentages WITHIN Y-R1b, otherwise it would be very surprising -

    + I answer here to someone else: Vascons/Wascons were previously living in Aquitaine, if I remember well, before giving their name to the Basques even south the Pyreneas - (GASC is a personal surname in SW Occitania) -
    what is a question is the fact the name gave GASCON/GâCOIN in french, GWASKOGN in breton - so is *WASCON a celtic pronounciation of a bilabial V in VASCON (because only V become /B/ or spired /B/ between Northern Iberia Southwestern France + Northern Corsica at initial) or is the B/Vascon pronounciation a southern evolution of an original Wascon partly celtic??? because as a whole northern Spain shown a "brittonic" évolution as French, Occitan and North italian concerning the /w/ sound (Oued el Kebir/Guadalquivir, in asturian also: güeyu from *welyu << *olyo << ocul- "eye" opposed to castillan ojo) - so the name Vascon attributed to Basques could be a foreign name at first, some celtic rulers upon an autochtonous population tending to turn /w/ into /v/ then into /b/ - it is not clear in my mind - I have no knowldege about ancient basque language: what is the value of basque Go in Goa- by instance? maybe in fact the /v/ >> :B: evolution is due to the latine /w/ >> /v/ evolution, the form 'V' being imposed by official naming - it is not the first time autochtnous people received a dominant foreign pornounciation and spelling for their self endonyms even if it does not seem corresponding to basque temper!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Sorry, I suppose you cites here percentages WITHIN Y-R1b, otherwise it would be very surprising -
    Nan nan!

    DF27 was discovered in 2011, it is still very young!

    There are still many people who are P312+, L21-U152- and who have not tested DF27.
    They are more than 90% likely to be DF27!


    More than 95% of P312 (XL21, U152) in Spain are DF27.
    The number is a little lower in the UK, but in any case, exceed widely 50%.

    It should not be confused with SRY2627 which represents only a small part of DF27

  10. #10
    martiko martiko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Sorry, I suppose you cites here percentages WITHIN Y-R1b, otherwise it would be very surprising -

    + I answer here to someone else: Vascons/Wascons were previously living in Aquitaine, if I remember well, before giving their name to the Basques even south the Pyreneas - (GASC is a personal surname in SW Occitania) -
    what is a question is the fact the name gave GASCON/GâCOIN in french, GWASKOGN in breton - so is *WASCON a celtic pronounciation of a bilabial V in VASCON (because only V become /B/ or spired /B/ between Northern Iberia Southwestern France + Northern Corsica at initial) or is the B/Vascon pronounciation a southern evolution of an original Wascon partly celtic??? because as a whole northern Spain shown a "brittonic" évolution as French, Occitan and North italian concerning the /w/ sound (Oued el Kebir/Guadalquivir, in asturian also: güeyu from *welyu << *olyo << ocul- "eye" opposed to castillan ojo) - so the name Vascon attributed to Basques could be a foreign name at first, some celtic rulers upon an autochtonous population tending to turn /w/ into /v/ then into /b/ - it is not clear in my mind - I have no knowldege about ancient basque language: what is the value of basque Go in Goa- by instance? maybe in fact the /v/ >> :B: evolution is due to the latine /w/ >> /v/ evolution, the form 'V' being imposed by official naming - it is not the first time autochtnous people received a dominant foreign pornounciation and spelling for their self endonyms even if it does not seem corresponding to basque temper!
    The letter B does not exist in Basque normally pronounce V and early word sometimes P, or B very muffled

  11. #11
    martiko martiko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gervais View Post
    Nan nan!

    DF27 was discovered in 2011, it is still very young!

    There are still many people who are P312+, L21-U152- and who have not tested DF27.
    They are more than 90% likely to be DF27!


    More than 95% of P312 (XL21, U152) in Spain are DF27.
    The number is a little lower in the UK, but in any case, exceed widely 50%.

    It should not be confused with SRY2627 which represents only a small part of DF27
    right! M167 rprsent the overwhelming majority of Basque and df27 Alike the group, it seems that the impact of df27 is increasingly important in Uk, as you said the overwhelming majority of L21-/U152- seems DF27 and percentage increases at high speed in the islands and France.

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