Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 9 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 220

Thread: Theory: I1 originally from Paloithic Cro magnon central Europe not Scandinavia

  1. #1
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered
    Fire Haired's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-06-13
    Posts
    689
    Points
    4,121
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,121, Level: 18
    Level completed: 68%, Points required for next Level: 129
    Overall activity: 42.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Df27(Spain)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2(Prussia)

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic, Latino(~6%)
    Country: USA - California



    Theory: I1 originally from Paloithic Cro magnon central Europe not Scandinavia



    I1 M253 in Scandinavia is a offshoot of central European I1
    From what i have seen I1 M253 in Scandinavia is majority I1a2 L22 and that I1a2 L22 is only in Scandinavia and areas were there is historical Scandinavian settlement. In the rest of Europe I1 M253 is I1a1 M227, I1a3 Z58, I1a4 Z63, and I1b Z131. It is by far mainly in central Europe the rest in non central Europe was probably spread by Germanic tribes. So I1 in central Europe is much more diverse than I1M253 in Scandinavia which is majority I1a2. If I1 M253 originated in Scandinavia wouldn't u except that they would have the most subclades. I1b Z131 is very very rare and from what i have read only found around the Netherlands and western Germany. All of Scandinavian I1a2 L22 brothers are in central Europe same with its cousin I1b Z131.

    It seems that I1 in Scandinavia is just a offshoot of the original I1a Df29 of central Europe that is hwy they only have one subclade. People i think are just assuming I1 is unque to Scandinavia and it originated there. Just like people assumed R1b M343 was unque and original to western Europe.

    I1 M253 was the first Y DNA haplogroup to settle Scandinavia and is Much older than predicted
    I have heard crazy age estimates for I1 M253 as 4,000-5,000 years old in Denmark or whatever. When u look at how I1 M253 is spread out mainly in Scandinavia it does not represent any non cultures in archaeology in the last 10,000 years. Those age estimates are complete BS i don't know why I1 M253 is always predicted to be so young. Pretty much 100% of Scandnavia Y DNA is I1 M253, N1c M46, R1a M420, R1b M434, and I2a2 P214. There is about 1-10% G2a P15, E1b1b M215, and J2 M172 in far southern Scandinavia but those can easily be explained as contact with other Europeans or Neolithic farmers.

    R1b M343 and I2a2 P214 in Scandinavia are basically distributed the same way. They are centered in southern Norway and Sweden and only barely exist in western Finland. Just about all R1b M343 in Scandinavia fall under Germanic Italo Celtic R1b L11 which originated in central Europe about 5,000-4,500ybp while proto Germanic Italo Celtic speakers were migrating from eastern Europe. I2a2 P214 originated in central Europe too probably over 10,000ybp and almost defintley migrated with R1b, Germanic languages, and brought red hair to Scandinavia(since it is distrubted the same way as those haplogroups) with the Nordic bronze age culture 4,000-3,500ybp. So the R1b M343 and I2a2 P214 is easily explained. R1a M420 in Scandinavia is the brother clade of Balto Slavic R1a M420 and can easily be explained by Corded ware culture which had settlement in southern Scandinavia 5,000-4,000ybp and spoke proto Balto Slavic.

    N1c M46 in Scandinavia is centered around Finland and Uralic speakers. It also perfectly matches the distributions of Kunda culture(8,000-6,000ybp) and Comb Cermaic culture (5,000-6,000ybp). Y DNA N period is originally mongliod and is very popular in northern Siberia it is estimated to have arrived in northeastern Europe including Finland from Siberia 10,000ybp. So N1c in Scandinavia is defintley from the spread of Uralic languages 10,000-6,000ybp.

    I1 M253 though in Scandinavia is very spread out and popular everywhere. No matter if the people speak a Germanic or Uralic language. It does not match any culture in archaeology in Scandinavia in the last 10,000 years. We know the first human settlement in Scandinavia came about 11,000ybp we have very very old human remains in Scandinavia dating around 10,000ybp and their skull shapes were Caucasian. N1c M46 is a Mongliod haplogroup there has to be a native European Caucasian haplogroup of Scandinavia and the only possible one is I1 M253. There is no way I1 M253 spread in Scandinavia in any recent migration and if there was one it had to be pre Uralic over 8,000ybp which to me means it was the first Y DNA haplogroup in Scandinavia.

    So what this mean's is Scandnavien I1a2 is probably around 9,000-11,000 years old. Also that I1 itself is much older than 4,000-5,000 years old since I1a2 has brothers and a cousin in central Europe. It would make sense I1 it self originated in central Europe i would guess 15,000-20,000ybp.
    Custom made Migration map of I1 M253


    I know this is sloppy i used MS paint. I dont know were but it seems I1 M253 ancestral form took refuge ins southern Europe it could have been in Spain i dont know. There is a good chance Y DNA I originated in Europe so that would also change my map a bit. But once u get to I1 M253 that is exactly how i think it migrated. The numbers on the side like 9-11 represent thousands of years so 9,000-11,000 years ago.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    24-12-12
    Posts
    28
    Points
    4,317
    Level
    19
    Points: 4,317, Level: 19
    Level completed: 17%, Points required for next Level: 333
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: United States



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Spamming your ill-informed age estimates does not make them correct. Your dates are fabrications made to fit your hypotheses. You have not once provided any data or evidence or back your assertions which, frankly, are old and tiring, given the frequency with which you post them, the length of your posts, and the near continuous stream of errors rendering your posts unreadable. The TMRCA for M253 is not over 10,000 bp. I have seen estimates from STRs calculations at 4000-5000 bp and from SNPs from the 1000 genomes projects in the 6000-7000 bp range. I haven't seen anyone seriously posit a Scandinavian origin and distribution of I1 in several years, certainly not since an explosion of SNP discoveries with geographic distributions suggesting alternative expansions. I'm not sure who you're debating here. The internet I1 community circa 2009?

    I would caution anyone who is new to the field who is reading FH's posts to take them with several grains of salt and keep a very discerning mind. He spreads misinformation and half-baked conjectures based on imaginary data and fantasy.

    I1 diverged from I in the paleolithic, as did R1a and R1b. I1 expanded in the neolithic, as did R1a and R1b. Where I1 spent the intervening tens of millennia is not known. There is no ancient DNA as of yet to provide any clues. We have only its current distribution and age estimates. I've argued it before, and I'll argue it again for a continental origin of the expansion of I1 into its present distribution. I suppose this is the one point where I agree with FH. It would seem that I1 expanded from perhaps the south Baltic shores which, given an estimated TMRCA for M253 of 4-5 kbp, would consistent with an association with the Corded Ware culture. We don't know how I1 would have come to be associated with CW. There is just no evidence or data to say anything.

    My own suspicions are that I1 and some branches of I2 are associated with "Old Europe" in the Danube River valley which then migrated up the Danube and similar rivers in Europe into their current distributions several thousands of years ago for some reason. Perhaps they were overtaken by pastoral IEs from the steppes. Perhaps a changing climate forced them to adopt a new, pastoral and mobile economy which led them to migrate. Perhaps a combination of both. Again, there is no real evidence of this, just some random coincidences (e.g., skull shape of the Old Europeans and today's I1-heavy people); but it doesn't overtly clash with the accepted datings of I1 and its clades, and it provides an explanation for how I1 expanded which offers and explanation for the current distribution of its clades an their relationships to one another.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered
    Fire Haired's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-06-13
    Posts
    689
    Points
    4,121
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,121, Level: 18
    Level completed: 68%, Points required for next Level: 129
    Overall activity: 42.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Df27(Spain)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2(Prussia)

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic, Latino(~6%)
    Country: USA - California



    TE]Spamming your ill-informed age estimates does not make them correct. Your dates are fabrications made to fit your hypotheses. You have not once provided any data or evidence or back your assertions[/QUOTE]

    I came up with those age estimates by looking at what I1 subclades are where and pre historic cultures. I showed my reasons N1c Kunda culture 6,000-8,0000ybp and spread o Uralic languages, R1a Corded ware culture 4,000-5,000ybp, I2a2 and R1b Nordic Bronze age culture starting 3,500-4,000ybp and spread of Germanic languages in Scandinavia.

    I1 in Scandinavia does not represent any of these cultures it is spread out in all of Scandinavia and seems to be the base haplogroup that was lessened by later y dna haplogroups. From eupedia's I1 page it says that most Scandinavian I1 is I1a2 while most of the I1 in the rest of Europe is I1a1, I1a3, and I1a4. Also that I1b the long lost cousin is only found around Netherlands and Germany. So from that it made no sense to say I1 in the rest of Europe is from Germanic migrations out of Scandinavia just over 2,000ybp not even age estimates would agree with that.

    Since I1 is so much more diverse in central Europe meaning it has more lineages than Scandinavia It would make sense it began there and Scandinavian I1a2 is just a offshoot of the I1a that already existed in central Europe. I cant really find any real data that gives percentages of I1 subclades in areas it gets annoying but i do know the basics.

    The TMRCA for M253 is not over 10,000 bp. I have seen estimates from STRs calculations at 4000-5000 bp and from SNPs from the 1000 genomes projects in the 6000-7000 bp range


    So what i know age sestimates are uselly somewhat accurate they can give an idea how old a haplogroup is. BUt they have been wrong like there were estimates H6 is only been in Europe for 4,000 years then they find a 15,000 year old H6 sample in north Spain. Also some said mtDNA V was only 5,000-9,000 years old i think Wikpedia still says that u can look it up then they find two 12,000 year old V samples. U cant except them to get the estimates compeltly correct sometimes they might not be even close. Since like i said before I1 in Scandnavia does not represent any language family or culture in archaeology of Scandinavia in the last 10,000 years. The way it is spread out there is no way it is less than 10,000 years old.

    I haven't seen anyone seriously posit a Scandinavian origin and distribution of I1 in several years, certainly not since an explosion of SNP discoveries with geographic distributions suggesting alternative expansions. I'm not sure who you're debating here. The internet I1 community circa 2009?


    quote fro Eupedia I1 page.

    I1 branch is estimated to have split away 20,000 years ago and evolved in isolation in Scandinavia during the lat Paloithic and Mesolithic.
    Quote from Wikpedia page on I1

    Haplogroup I-M253 arose from haplogroup I-M170, which appears ancient in Europe. Haplogroup I-M253 has been estimated to be some 15,000 years old.
    [4] It is suggested that it initially dispersed from Denmark.[5]

    I guess they said Denmark but it is still the Nordic Germanic idea just because it is so popular in those areas.

    [QUOTE] I would caution anyone who is new to the field who is reading FH's post to take them with a grain of salt and keep a very discerning mind. He spreads misinformation and half-baked[ conjectures based on imagnary data and factasy(QUOTE]

    I know i do say big things without giving my sources and some of the stuff i say i dont explain why. I will try to stop that. I dont see what i did wrong in this thread though. I said from what i have seen I1 in Scandnavia is majority I1a2 and the only other places with it had historical Scandinavian settlement. While in the rest of Europe is I1a1, I1a3, I1a4, and I1b. My only source would probably be Eupedia I1 page and other random stuff i cant remeber about I1. I dont see how u did any better than me with showing sources.

    I have seen estimates from STRs calculations at 4000-5000 bp and from SNPs from the 1000 genomes projects in the 6000-7000 bp range. I haven't seen anyone seriously posit a Scandinavian origin and distribution of I1 in several years, certainly not since an explosion of SNP discoveries with geographic distributions suggesting alternative expansions. I'm not sure who you're debating here. The internet I1 community circa 2009?


    In all of that u assumed as much as i did and did not give sources.

    1 diverged from I in the paleolithic, as did R1a and R1b. I1 expanded in the neolithic, as did R1a and R1b. Where I1 spent the intervening tens of millennia is not know


    That is ur theory this thread is mine u are saying this is a fact just as it seems i was. Just saying if I1 spread in the Neloithic when according to Eupedia map of spread of farmin in Europe it was only in south Scandnavia. while I1 is spread out in all of Scandnavia.



    How do u explain how well I1 is spread out in Scandnavia, Teh fact it exists in uralic and Germanic speakers and that URlaic languages and N1c probably came 7,000-8,000ybp with Kund culture. N1c is Mongliod the native Finnish were Caucasian tell me were is their native orignal Caucasian Y DNA haplogroup I1 is the only possibility, If I1 which is very popular in Finland 15-20% spread after N1c and Urlaic languages were strongly settled in Finland how would they be able to spread and become so popular. If anything conquering would be the best way when a people conquers like germanic and Italo celtic speakers did in west Europe they alot of times replace alot of the native male lineages because men die in wars. If they were conquered by people from swedan why do they still speak a Urlaic language. It just does not make sense to me.

    Even Maciamo who makes everything on this website this R1b and R1a in Europe were spread with Bronze age Indo European migrations. Just about 100% of R1b in west Europe is R1b L11 which is the youngest branch of R1b. It even breaks down into language families R1b S116/P312 Italo celtic and R1b U106/U152 Germanic. U should read Eupedia's R1b page click here and my own thread about the spread of Germanic Italo celts click here. So it did not spread in the Neolithic it spread with Germanic and Italo Celtic languages in the bronze age.

    R1b migration map made by Eupedia


    Also R1a1a1 seems to have also spread with Indo European languages mainliy Balto Slavic and Indo Iranian U should read Eupedia's R1a page it totally make's sense. ancient DNA from supposedly proto Balto Slavic and Indo iranian cultures came back as at least down stream as R1a1a so that is even more evidence.


    I1 does not represent any migrations i have heard of in the Neolithic age so ur only evidence for it spreading in the Neolithic is age estimates.

    It would seem that I1 expanded from perhaps the south Baltic shores which, given an estimated TMRCA for M253 of 4-5 kbp, would consistent with an association with the Corded Ware culture.


    I totall agree it was not orignally Nordic. To say it is from Corded ware culture in the Baltic's just 5,000-4,000ybp i dis agree with that. We do know for almost a fact Corded ware culture spoke proto Balto Slavic we already know from ancient remains they had at least some R1a1a and it seems they were majority R1a1a1a1b1 Z283. I1 is less popular in the Baltic's it probably has Scandnavian subclades. There is a R1a1a1a1b1 Z283 Scandinavian branch which is pretty spread out but not spread out the same way as I1 and not nearly as popular. I really doubt any form of a non Paloithic spread of I1 in Scandinavia.

    I1 and I2 people were not connected they had no idea what DNA was. Y DNA I it self is the only popular Paloithic Y DNA haplogroup in Europe that is all we know. This reminded me though most mtDNA is Europe is Paloithic U(U5, U8, U2), H(H1, H3, probably H17 and H27), HV(V), RO. In Aust DNA i like the globe13 test but almost all tests say the same thing the Paloithic group of Europe they call it north euro or north east euro because it is most popular in those areas but basically it shows the majority of Europeans ancestry is Paloithic. What makes euro's diff from other people is their common Paleolithic ancestry the reason why Y DNA I is probably so unpopular is because hunter gathers were conquered and killed by farmers since men fight and die in wars when a people is conquered they uselly keep most of the native blood and the maternal lineages but not paternal lineages.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    24-12-12
    Posts
    28
    Points
    4,317
    Level
    19
    Points: 4,317, Level: 19
    Level completed: 17%, Points required for next Level: 333
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    I came up with those age estimates by looking at what I1 subclades are where and pre historic cultures. I showed my reasons N1c Kunda culture 6,000-8,0000ybp and spread o Uralic languages, R1a Corded ware culture 4,000-5,000ybp, I2a2 and R1b Nordic Bronze age culture starting 3,500-4,000ybp and spread of Germanic languages in Scandinavia.


    To translate: "I plucked these numbers from thin air, because I1 must absolutely be paleolithic in Northern Europe." The rest of your conclusions, which flow from your BS ages, are meaningless.

    The only thing of interest is why you are compelled to write so many lengthy, nonsensical, gibberish posts in the first place. I have a sneaking suspicion that you're really a trollbot program written by some PhD student which crawls the web collecting random text and images associated with a topic, parses the text into gibberish, and posts it on forums in an experiment to see whether human subjects can detect it, something like a more sophisticated Turing test with sociological implications.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered
    Fire Haired's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-06-13
    Posts
    689
    Points
    4,121
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,121, Level: 18
    Level completed: 68%, Points required for next Level: 129
    Overall activity: 42.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Df27(Spain)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2(Prussia)

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic, Latino(~6%)
    Country: USA - California



    To translate: "I plucked these numbers from thin air, because I1 must absolutely be paleolithic in Northern Europe." The rest of your conclusions, which flow from your BS ages, are meaningless.
    U call this thin air
    came up with those age estimates by looking at what I1 subclades are where and pre historic cultures. I showed my reasons N1c Kunda culture 6,000-8,0000ybp and spread o Uralic languages, R1a Corded ware culture 4,000-5,000ybp, I2a2 and R1b Nordic Bronze age culture starting 3,500-4,000ybp and spread of Germanic languages in Scandinavia.
    That is good evidence and a though it throw. I dont see how ur Corded war culture idea was any better. U are going off of is age estimates which really make it hard to explain how I1 is spread out mainly in Scandinavia.

    The only thing of interest is why you are compelled to write so many lengthy, nonsensical, gibberish posts in the first place. I have a sneaking suspicion that you're really a trollbot program written by some PhD student which crawls the web collecting random text and images associated with a topic, parses the text into gibberish, and posts it on forums in an experiment to see whether human subjects can detect it, something like a more sophisticated Turing test with sociological implications.
    I write this because i want to show my opinon. I do admit some of the stuff i say is assumtions are little sources i have read. If what i am saying is total giberish and BS prove me wrong.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    24-12-12
    Posts
    28
    Points
    4,317
    Level
    19
    Points: 4,317, Level: 19
    Level completed: 17%, Points required for next Level: 333
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: United States



    Your opinion is wrong. What I am inferring from is the current distribution of I1's clades and their relationships to each other (e.g., CTS6364* is strongly distributed in Poland and from CTS6364 we come to L22 which has a strong northern bias from which you get to Z74 which is essentially a Scandinavian marker and finally from Z74 you get L813 which branches off to the west in Norway and CTS2208 which heads to the east in Finland) as well as their ages. Drop the phylogenetic tree on a map and trace it back temporospatially, and you may arrive at my conclusion. This is hardly similar to ascribing I1 to a paleolithic European culture because "it just has to be" and then picking an age that is consistent with that culture. At least with STR variance and SNP count differences, you have some objectivity.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,119
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by pyromatic View Post
    Spamming your ill-informed age estimates does not make them correct. Your dates are fabrications made to fit your hypotheses. You have not once provided any data or evidence or back your assertions which, frankly, are old and tiring, given the frequency with which you post them, the length of your posts, and the near continuous stream of errors rendering your posts unreadable. The TMRCA for M253 is not over 10,000 bp. I have seen estimates from STRs calculations at 4000-5000 bp and from SNPs from the 1000 genomes projects in the 6000-7000 bp range. I haven't seen anyone seriously posit a Scandinavian origin and distribution of I1 in several years, certainly not since an explosion of SNP discoveries with geographic distributions suggesting alternative expansions. I'm not sure who you're debating here. The internet I1 community circa 2009?

    I would caution anyone who is new to the field who is reading FH's posts to take them with several grains of salt and keep a very discerning mind. He spreads misinformation and half-baked conjectures based on imaginary data and fantasy.

    I1 diverged from I in the paleolithic, as did R1a and R1b. I1 expanded in the neolithic, as did R1a and R1b. Where I1 spent the intervening tens of millennia is not known. There is no ancient DNA as of yet to provide any clues. We have only its current distribution and age estimates. I've argued it before, and I'll argue it again for a continental origin of the expansion of I1 into its present distribution. I suppose this is the one point where I agree with FH. It would seem that I1 expanded from perhaps the south Baltic shores which, given an estimated TMRCA for M253 of 4-5 kbp, would consistent with an association with the Corded Ware culture. We don't know how I1 would have come to be associated with CW. There is just no evidence or data to say anything.

    My own suspicions are that I1 and some branches of I2 are associated with "Old Europe" in the Danube River valley which then migrated up the Danube and similar rivers in Europe into their current distributions several thousands of years ago for some reason. Perhaps they were overtaken by pastoral IEs from the steppes. Perhaps a changing climate forced them to adopt a new, pastoral and mobile economy which led them to migrate. Perhaps a combination of both. Again, there is no real evidence of this, just some random coincidences (e.g., skull shape of the Old Europeans and today's I1-heavy people); but it doesn't overtly clash with the accepted datings of I1 and its clades, and it provides an explanation for how I1 expanded which offers and explanation for the current distribution of its clades an their relationships to one another.
    IIRC - KenN states I1 as being continental baltic lands .ie, old prussia which makes it gothic and aestii people.

    TerryRobb states I2 as being danubian from ( pannonia) up until the northern adriatic area ( croatia/slovenia)
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    24-12-12
    Posts
    28
    Points
    4,317
    Level
    19
    Points: 4,317, Level: 19
    Level completed: 17%, Points required for next Level: 333
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    There were no Goths or Aestii 5000 years ago. The expansion from a south Baltic or more central European locus would have occurred far in advance of the formation of these tribal identities. These tribes most certainly contained numerous paternal and maternal lineages.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,119
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by pyromatic View Post
    There were no Goths or Aestii 5000 years ago. The expansion from a south Baltic or more central European locus would have occurred far in advance of the formation of these tribal identities. These tribes most certainly contained numerous paternal and maternal lineages.
    The marker was in the area, if these people became goths and aestiian, then it the same thing, if the goths and aestiian came from elsewhere, then who had the I1 that ken states?

  10. #10
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    24-12-12
    Posts
    28
    Points
    4,317
    Level
    19
    Points: 4,317, Level: 19
    Level completed: 17%, Points required for next Level: 333
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: United States



    I'd say these tribes formed in situ, which means that "Goths" would be I1, I2, R1a, R1b, etc. Most I1 would then not be Gothic, having expanded millennia earlier; and Goths therefore need not be I1.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    27-02-13
    Posts
    236
    Points
    9,994
    Level
    30
    Points: 9,994, Level: 30
    Level completed: 8%, Points required for next Level: 556
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Ethnic group
    english,bavaria.thats all i know
    Country: USA - Alabama



    actually I emailed knordvedt after he said Prussia and he ment east Germany west Poland at the very north of those areas.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    27-02-13
    Posts
    236
    Points
    9,994
    Level
    30
    Points: 9,994, Level: 30
    Level completed: 8%, Points required for next Level: 556
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Ethnic group
    english,bavaria.thats all i know
    Country: USA - Alabama



    I agree with this

  13. #13
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    27-02-13
    Posts
    236
    Points
    9,994
    Level
    30
    Points: 9,994, Level: 30
    Level completed: 8%, Points required for next Level: 556
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Ethnic group
    english,bavaria.thats all i know
    Country: USA - Alabama



    Quote Originally Posted by pyromatic View Post
    Your opinion is wrong. What I am inferring from is the current distribution of I1's clades and their relationships to each other (e.g., CTS6364* is strongly distributed in Poland and from CTS6364 we come to L22 which has a strong northern bias from which you get to Z74 which is essentially a Scandinavian marker and finally from Z74 you get L813 which branches off to the west in Norway and CTS2208 which heads to the east in Finland) as well as their ages. Drop the phylogenetic tree on a map and trace it back temporospatially, and you may arrive at my conclusion. This is hardly similar to ascribing I1 to a paleolithic European culture because "it just has to be" and then picking an age that is consistent with that culture. At least with STR variance and SNP count differences, you have some objectivity.
    I agree with this

  14. #14
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    Nobody1's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-03-13
    Posts
    1,040
    Points
    5,756
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,756, Level: 22
    Level completed: 42%, Points required for next Level: 294
    Overall activity: 34.0%


    Country: Germany - Baden-Wurttemberg



    Quote Originally Posted by tjlowery87 View Post
    actually I emailed knordvedt after he said Prussia and he ment east Germany west Poland at the very north of those areas.
    Did he specifically point out the Baltic coast?
    Than that would be modern-day Pomerania;
    an area Pytheas (4th cen BC) ascribed to the Teutones and Gutones

  15. #15
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    27-02-13
    Posts
    236
    Points
    9,994
    Level
    30
    Points: 9,994, Level: 30
    Level completed: 8%, Points required for next Level: 556
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Ethnic group
    english,bavaria.thats all i know
    Country: USA - Alabama



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Did he specifically point out the Baltic coast?
    Than that would be modern-day Pomerania;
    an area Pytheas (4th cen BC) ascribed to the Teutones and Gutones
    he has mentioned pomerinia/Prussia several times through email.(when I do get replys)

  16. #16
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    Nobody1's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-03-13
    Posts
    1,040
    Points
    5,756
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,756, Level: 22
    Level completed: 42%, Points required for next Level: 294
    Overall activity: 34.0%


    Country: Germany - Baden-Wurttemberg



    Quote Originally Posted by tjlowery87 View Post
    he has mentioned pomerinia/Prussia several times through email.(when I do get replys)
    Cool
    thanks for the info;

  17. #17
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,119
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Did he specifically point out the Baltic coast?
    Than that would be modern-day Pomerania;
    an area Pytheas (4th cen BC) ascribed to the Teutones and Gutones
    read from this link and links attached to this link

    http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.co...-06/1372263039

  18. #18
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    Nobody1's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-03-13
    Posts
    1,040
    Points
    5,756
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,756, Level: 22
    Level completed: 42%, Points required for next Level: 294
    Overall activity: 34.0%


    Country: Germany - Baden-Wurttemberg



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    read from this link and links attached to this link

    http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.co...-06/1372263039
    anything specific?

  19. #19
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,119
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    anything specific?
    just his comments ....or all as its not long in time to read

  20. #20
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    Nobody1's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-03-13
    Posts
    1,040
    Points
    5,756
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,756, Level: 22
    Level completed: 42%, Points required for next Level: 294
    Overall activity: 34.0%


    Country: Germany - Baden-Wurttemberg



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    just his comments ....or all as its not long in time to read
    finished reading it;
    and what happens now?

  21. #21
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,119
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Did he specifically point out the Baltic coast?
    Than that would be modern-day Pomerania;
    an area Pytheas (4th cen BC) ascribed to the Teutones and Gutones
    teutones are in Jutland , never seen them mentioned in Pomerania

    Latin name for the Baltic Sea — Mare Balticum. the name 'Aistians', taken from the Roman historian Tacitus, who in the book Germania (98 A.D.) mentioned gentes Aestiorum, residing on the eastern shore of the Baltic Sea. The eastern Balts the Neuri, first mentioned by Herodotus in the 5th century B.C. (unfortunately, the question of their nationality is not settled beyond doubt). Moving through the centuries, the two Prussian tribes known to Ptolemy in the second century A.D., the Sudovians and Galindians; the Curonians noted in the Scandinavian sagas of the 7th century; Prussians, whose name appears in the 9th century in the writings of the so-called Bavarian Geographer; Semigallians in 870 A.D.; Lithuanians and Lettigallians in the 11th century; and, finally, Galindians (Goljad'), mentioned in Russian sources in 1058 and 1147 as living to the west of Moscow.

    I see no Teutones, maybe you can link me where its stated.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    Nobody1's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-03-13
    Posts
    1,040
    Points
    5,756
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,756, Level: 22
    Level completed: 42%, Points required for next Level: 294
    Overall activity: 34.0%


    Country: Germany - Baden-Wurttemberg



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    teutones are in Jutland , never seen them mentioned in Pomerania

    Latin name for the Baltic Sea — Mare Balticum. the name 'Aistians', taken from the Roman historian Tacitus, who in the book Germania (98 A.D.) mentioned gentes Aestiorum, residing on the eastern shore of the Baltic Sea. The eastern Balts the Neuri, first mentioned by Herodotus in the 5th century B.C. (unfortunately, the question of their nationality is not settled beyond doubt). Moving through the centuries, the two Prussian tribes known to Ptolemy in the second century A.D., the Sudovians and Galindians; the Curonians noted in the Scandinavian sagas of the 7th century; Prussians, whose name appears in the 9th century in the writings of the so-called Bavarian Geographer; Semigallians in 870 A.D.; Lithuanians and Lettigallians in the 11th century; and, finally, Galindians (Goljad'), mentioned in Russian sources in 1058 and 1147 as living to the west of Moscow.

    I see no Teutones, maybe you can link me where its stated.
    Is this a text from Pytheas?

  23. #23
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    27-02-13
    Posts
    236
    Points
    9,994
    Level
    30
    Points: 9,994, Level: 30
    Level completed: 8%, Points required for next Level: 556
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Ethnic group
    english,bavaria.thats all i know
    Country: USA - Alabama



    That’s my best estimate right now.

    - - - -
    Kenneth Nordtvedt

    See:
    "Tree for I1xL22xZ58"
    "Tree for I1 Z58+ Z60-"
    "Tree for I1 Z60+"
    "Tree for I1 L22+"
    "Tree for M223 x Z161"
    "Tree for M223+ Z161+"
    "Tree and Map for haplogroup I"
    "The I1 modalities"
    "The M223+ Modalities"


    at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net

    These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained.



    From: terry lowery
    Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2013 4:26 PM
    To: ken
    Subject: hello




    sorry to bother you today,i was wondering the mrca for i1 is east Germany ,west Poland area correct?the very north of those areas?

  24. #24
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    27-02-13
    Posts
    236
    Points
    9,994
    Level
    30
    Points: 9,994, Level: 30
    Level completed: 8%, Points required for next Level: 556
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Ethnic group
    english,bavaria.thats all i know
    Country: USA - Alabama



    that's all I know on the subject,is what he said on my above post which is a copy of email

  25. #25
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    Nobody1's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-03-13
    Posts
    1,040
    Points
    5,756
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,756, Level: 22
    Level completed: 42%, Points required for next Level: 294
    Overall activity: 34.0%


    Country: Germany - Baden-Wurttemberg



    @ Sile

    I still dont know what you quoted (is it from Wikipedia again?) but it was def. not from Pytheas
    Something from Pytheas

    James Cowles Prichard
    - Ethnography of Europe (1841)
    Pliny in giving an account of the production of amber says, that according to Pytheas there was " an estuary of the ocean called Mentonomon, inhabited by the Guttones, a people of Germany. It reached six thousand furlongs in extent. From this place an island named Abalus was distant about one day's sail, on the shore of which the waves throw up pieces of amber. The inhabitants make use of it for fuel, or else sell it to their neighbours the Teutones" - Pliny adds, that Timaeus gave full credit to this story;

    "Pytheas credidit Guttonibus Germaniae genti, accoli Aestuarium oceani, MENTONOMON nomine, spatio stadiorum sex millium. Ab hoc die navigatione insulam abesse Abalum. Illo vero fluctibus advehi et esse concreti maris purgamentum. Incolas pro ligno ad eo uti, proximique Teutonis vendere"


    So the Guttones were Germanic and so were the Teutones
    needless to say that the Goths [to whom the Guttones are attributed - Cassiodorus] spoke an Indo-European Germanic language
    in fact much closer to modern-day German than to any other modern-day Germanic language;

Page 1 of 9 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •