Indo-european

sure it is not easy!
science about human skulls shape is not too reliable, until recently (and yet, the means methods of today are not always of great utility, I think - "old science" took a lot of not numerous measures of the skulls, producing some relative (index) and absolute measures permetting them (as they thought) to classify individuals into groups more or less homogenous - surely this "recently" (1880?) born science could help to separate roughly some human individual types but these metric means taken too naively led some of them to put in the same bags some populations without taking in account the non-genetic influences ont these means (MEANS OF FEATURES WHEN TO SCARCE CANNOT TAKE THE PLACE OF VISUAL OBSERVATION WHICH TAKES IN ACCOUNT, EVEN INCONSCIOUSLY SOMETIMES, A LOT OF «NOT WRITTEN» MEASURES OF SKULLS or other parts of a body) – sometimes, some amateur observators can see at first look the «familial» link between heads and faces of people of different generations or times having lived different ways of life and different climates when a too strict reduced set of «scientific» measures and indexes lead a scientist of the «old moulder» to separate them as not akin – it is not to say skulls study is of no worth (i think the contrary) – but very often the differences say us more than the pseudo similitudes – a global animal (and human) phenotype cannot be based only on the skull shape, yet very uneasy to analyse with too few measures, but is based on a quantity of others body shapes and others external elements (pigmentation, stature, body proportions, muscular mass = it is to say the bones and flesh and fat elements, head and body hair density, texture of skin, blood irrigation...) by definition, the internal aspects cannot be analysed) -
a phenotype is a genetic and not-genetic result – and every genetic global phenotype one can try to establish is based upon the selection of autosomals genes inherited from older bigger group slightly differentiated within itself by accumulation of slow mutations : a raciation process by isolation + natural selection, that cannot concern all the genes of the descendants: a lot of these genes remains still common between all descendants groups, either at an homozygotous or heterozygotous state; and within in one of these «abstract» groups never we find a complete homogeneity -
some human phenotypes I believe have had some reality (typical group phenotype = huge majority of the population) at some stage of History and evolution, maybe never as well separated between them and their «cousins» as it occurs among the majority of animals, and soonly admixed with other types... Human beings came over the natural barriers more easily than animals and escape more easily to natural pressure so, we find either an internal differentiated numerous population (indiviual level), or a previous population broken into differentiated small groups phenotypes put back into what become a «crossed» new melting pot... -
my opinion (and others opinion too) is that Indo-Europeans even if «pure» at some stage acculturated linguistically other populations genetically different so it is hard without any idea of which population was the proto- one to rely upon skulls shape (taken in account what I wrote before) to try to guess who were the first I-Eans: the skull before the language or the language before the skull???
just some thought of an old amateur
 
Does the distribution of caucasoid skull shape match up with indo-european language distribution?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasoid


Do you just mean the Blumenbach skull type or the entire Caucasoid race and its sub-races?


Caucasoid sub-races [Nordoid (Dolichocephalic) - Mediterranid (Dolichocephalic) - Alpinoid (Brachycephalic) - Armenoid (Brachycephalic)]

Coon -
troefig30gk1.jpg



The main races are Caucasoid / Mongoloid / Negroid / Australoid
plus all their sub-races and sub-types


Deniker -
dENIKERRACES.jpg
 
This study from Uni. of Reading/Uni. of Cambridge from 2013
shows that Proto-Indo-European and Proto-Uralic share a common root and within the Eurasian family the most common root;

Pagel et al 2013
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2013/05/01/1218726110.full.pdf


While Mallory addresses the earlier Bouckaert et al paper from the same Grey-Atkinson group, ( http://www.sciencemag.org/content/337/6097/957), I don't think he had seen the Pagel et al paper, because the "origin" area for PIE isn't placed in eastern Anatolia in that paper. I think it addresses some of his other issues as well.

I'm aware of the fuss among most linguists about their approach, but I rather incline toward a statistical analysis, even if theirs has to be refined somewhat.

The summary by Mallory struck me as rather even-handed in its analysis of the flaws in each of these theories, flaws that hobbyists who have adopted one or another of them, at times don't seem to see.
 
Renfrew and Atkinson the two major proponents of the Anatolian theory
were part of that Pagel et al 2013 study;


Atkinson - 2012 (vs D. Anthony)
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/24/s...-anatolia-analysis-suggests.html?pagewanted=1
Atkinson -
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/08/24/science/0824-origins.html?ref=science

Yes, I know it's all one group. Where I made a mistake is in my interpretation of Figure 4 from the Pagel et al study. The language tree that is superimposed over the map of Europe doesn't necessarily have anything to do with migration or origin point of PIE.

The Pagel paper was discussed at Dienekes' blog...some interesting speculations in the comments section.
 
I'm aware of the fuss among most linguists about their approach, but I rather incline toward a statistical analysis, even if theirs has to be refined somewhat.
Remember that statistical analysis only gives out what is put in. There is nothing new in lexicostatistic method itself, only the modern computational phylogenetic framework is new. Their method is very unreliable and cannot challenge the traditional methods of historical linguistics.

You should google for the following critiques (I'm not allowed to post links yet, due to the weird policy of this forum):
- "Problems in the method and interpretations of the computational phylogenetics based on linguistic data - An example of wishful thinking: Bouckaert et al. 2012"
- "Review of Pagel et al. 2013: "Ultraconserved words
point to deep language ancestry across Eurasia" "


Angela said:
The summary by Mallory struck me as rather even-handed in its analysis of the flaws in each of these theories, flaws that hobbyists who have adopted one or another of them, at times don't seem to see.
Still, the fact remains that the Copper Age Steppe homeland is the best argued and the most credible option. All the other possibilities have numerous problems.
 
in August 2013 an abstract put in Dienekes Blog seems affirmating the proto-I-E language would fit more to a mountainous region when the proto-Uralic one would fit more to a steppic one: very important for us if I had correctly red the abstract and if the basis of the analysis is correct (only if...) - it is true we see so different points of view concerning archeolinguistics
 
Thats the Steppe origin (the scenario i favor the most too)
Caspian-Pontic steppes [Sredny Stog/Khvalynsk -> Yamna]


LanguagespreadFromBlackSea.jpg

Is this a joke? This map is according to William Jones and William Jones lived 250 years ago (18th century). So this map is not really relevant anno 2013!! Also Finno-Ugrian has nothing to do with PIE. Current knowledge of migration waves and archaeological finds destroyed this hypothesis already 30 years ago!
 
Is this a joke? This map is according to William Jones and William Jones lived 250 years ago (18th century). So this map is not really relevant anno 2013!! Also Finno-Ugrian has nothing to do with PIE. Current knowledge of migration waves and archaeological finds destroyed this hypothesis already 30 years ago!

Doesnt look like its from the 18th cen. to me;
And Archaeology favors the Steppe origin
Sredny Stog//Khvalynsk -> Yamna -> Globular Amphora -> Corded Ware / (+Destruction of Varna)
and thats just Europe
Dr. D. Anthony wrote (yet another) good book about the Steppe origin -Kurgan culture complex in 2010;
From 18th cen. - 2010 / not a bad line of science over and over again getting more precise everytime;

PS: The study about Proto-Uralic and Proto-Indo-European having a common root is from 2013
So it looks like nothing you wish for has actually ever been destroyed;
 
Cultures in the Caucasus that influenced Yamna are much older than Sredny Stog//Khvalynsk. There was a migration wave from the Caucasus into the Yamna Horizon. PIE has also many things in common with Caucasian (Kartvelian) languages. According to most modern scholars, and even this professor Lamberg that teaches at Harvard universithy, PIE came from the Southern parts of the Caspian Sea. Carl C. Lamberg-Karlovsky:
13-irandig1-450.jpg
 
PS: The study about Proto-Uralic and Proto-Indo-European having a common root is from 2013
So it looks like nothing you wish for has actually ever been destroyed;
Wrong again, Finno-Ugrian foragers borrowed lots of Indo-European words from Indo-Europised foragers. Proto-Indo-European is closer related to Caucasian (Kartvelian) languages.
 
Shulaveri-Shomu culture in the Southern Caucaus that influenced Trialeti culture and therefore Yamna is much older than Sredny Stog//Khvalynsk. :LOL: Shulaveri-Shomu culture was in turn influenced by the Sumerian cultures. :grin:
 
@ post #17

Mitra Ara
- Eschatology in the Indo-Iranian Traditions (2006) [Am. Uni. Studies]
Afanasyevo and Andronovo are often related to the Yamna Kurgan tradition, which appeared in the Old European territories during the first wave of migration, ca. 4400- 4300 BCE. "Yamna comes from yama, 'pit,' i.e., 'pit grave' under a barrow."5 The Yamna culture, reflecting the earliest developments of semi-nomadic pastoralism, covered territories from the Danube to the Urals, ca. 3600-2200 BCE.

Its fun to select random Culture zones and associate cultures & people with them;
But where is the clear Archaeological continuity between South Caucasus cultures and Yamna?

Yamna emerged out of Sredny Stog//Khvalynsk thats the Archaeological (cultural) continuity;

If you need all the Historical documentation (From the Greeks) about the Scythians and Cimmerians (Migrating/Invading Anatolia - Iranian Plateau) and were they originated (North Black sea) - i will post them all again;
Thats Archaeology and Historical records; and all point to the Steppe Urheimat origins;

Linguistically there are many theories;
As for Mr. C. C. Lamberg-Karlovsky

This review of recent archaeological work in Central Asia and Eurasia attempts to trace and date the movements of the Indo-Iranians—speakers of languages of the eastern branch of Proto-Indo-European that later split into the Iranian and Vedic families. Russian and Central Asian scholars working on the contemporary but very different Andronovo and Bactrian Margiana archaeological complexes of the 2d millennium b.c.have identified both as Indo-Iranian, and particular sites so identified are being used for nationalist purposes. There is, however,no compelling archaeological evidence that they had a common ancestor or that either is Indo-Iranian. Ethnicity and language are not easily linked with an archaeological signature, and the identity of the Indo-Iranians remains elusive.

So Lamberg-Karlovsky does not resort to Archaeological evidence;
Only to his own constructed Linguistic theories; Good to know thats your Guru;

The latest Linguistic studies suggest (proto-Indo-European) closer links to Proto-Uralic and not proto-Kartvelian;


@ post # 19

S. J. Shennan - Archaeological Approaches to Cultural Identity (1994)
The Trialeti culture of the first half of the 2nd millennium BC in eastern Georgia features all of the elements of the developed chiefdom social pattern (Kuftin 1941, Japa- ridze 1973).

How can a culture that emerged after Yamna have influence on Yamna;
Maybe the other way around via Maykop;
Once again - looks like fun to select random Culture zones - but having a correct time-line and evidence of continuity is the correct approach; Stick to that;
 

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