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Thread: Haplogroup J2, Romans, Christianity and Viticulture

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    Topic = Haplogroup J2, Romans, Christianity and Viticulture.
    Last edited by RHAS; 31-08-13 at 17:30.

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    Last edited by RHAS; 31-08-13 at 17:32.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Aeneas and J-M92.

    Just some funny myth in this J-M92 maps regard i just noticed. The red area in Anatolia is were Troy was situated. Aeneas and his family, when he fled Troy, eventually ended up in Cumae near Naples (the other red area in Italy) were he saw some priestes of Apollo. She told him his descendants would create the Roman Empire. (Romulus and Remus)

    "In Greco-Roman mythology, Aeneas (/ɪˈniːəs/; Greek: Αἰνείας, Aineías, possibly derived from Greek αἰνή meaning "praise") was a Trojan hero, the son of the prince Anchises and the goddess Aphrodite. His father was the second cousin of King Priam of Troy, making Aeneas Priam's second cousin, once removed. He is a character in Greek mythology and is mentioned in Homer's Iliad, and receives full treatment in Roman mythology as the legendary founder of what would become Ancient Rome, most extensively in Virgil's Aeneid."
    Aeneas.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneas

    "An earlier tradition that gave Romulus a distant ancestor in the semi-divine Trojan prince Aeneas was further embellished, and Romulus was made the direct ancestor of Rome's first Imperial dynasty. Possible historical bases for the broad mythological narrative remain unclear and disputed. The image of the she-wolf suckling the divinely fathered twins became an iconic representation of the city and its founding legend, making Romulus and Remus preeminent among the feral children of ancient mythography."
    Romulus and Remus.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romulus_and_Remus

    Haplogroup J-M92



    Map Navigatio Troiani Aeneas



    Map travels of Aeneas.

    Last edited by RHAS; 03-09-13 at 18:13.

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    Romans, Christianity and viticulture.

    "Now nearly extinct in the wild, grapes (vitis vinifera) grew throughout the ancient Mediterranean, the juice readily fermenting as the enzymes of wild yeasts that naturally collect on the waxy skin break down the sugar content of the grape into alcohol and carbon dioxide. In Italy, grape vines were cultivated both in the north by the Etruscans and in the south by Greek colonists. Wine growing was less important to the Romans, who, in the early years of the Republic, were fighting to expand their domination of the peninsula. By the middle of the second century BC, however, with the defeat of the Etruscans and the Samnites, Pyrrhus and the Greeks, Philip of Macedonia and the Carthaginians, Rome controlled the Mediterranean, and there were both the wealth and markets to invest in vineyards.The earliest work on wine and agriculture was written in Punic. After the destruction of Carthage in 146 BC, the Senate decreed that this treatise be translated into Latin, and it subsequently became the source for all Roman writing on viticulture. Ironically, it was Cato who had insisted on the destruction of Carthage in the Punic wars and who, about 160 BC, wrote De Agri Cultura, the first survey of Roman viticulture, which, significantly, also is the earliest surviving prose work in Latin. In it, he discusses the production of wine on large slave-based villa estates, which suggests how important vine cultivation had become in an agrarian economy that traditionally was subsistence farming."
    Wine and Rome.
    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/...wine/wine.html

    "Roman villas illustrate the Christianization of Europe, since the country villa served as "pieces of cities broken off" and Christianity originated as an urban religion.[39] The Galois aristocrats benefited from conversion by closer ties to Rome (and the emperor's family) after Constantine’s conversion. Roman culture was flexible, so a multicultural blend (or sympathetic intermingling) was usually the result with many villas religiously ambiguous. The local peasants (and their pagan traditions) were ignored; pre-Roman religious sites evolved into Roman cult sites and (later) Christian pilgrimage destinations. Because the church kept all records throughout the fall of Rome and the Middle Ages, historians have little information about local non-Christian beliefs."
    Roman Villas in Northwestern Gaul.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_v...thwestern_Gaul
    Last edited by RHAS; 03-09-13 at 17:47.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by RHAS View Post
    Aeneas and J-M92.

    Just some funny myth in this J-M92 maps regard i just noticed. The red area in Anatolia is were Troy was situated. Aeneas and his family, when he fled Troy, eventually ended up in Cumae near Naples (the other red area in Italy) were he saw some priestes of Apollo. She told him his descendants would create the Roman Empire. (Romulus and Remus)

    "In Greco-Roman mythology, Aeneas (/ɪˈniːəs/; Greek: Αἰνείας, Aineías, possibly derived from Greek αἰνή meaning "praise") was a Trojan hero, the son of the prince Anchises and the goddess Aphrodite. His father was the second cousin of King Priam of Troy, making Aeneas Priam's second cousin, once removed. He is a character in Greek mythology and is mentioned in Homer's Iliad, and receives full treatment in Roman mythology as the legendary founder of what would become Ancient Rome, most extensively in Virgil's Aeneid."
    Aeneas.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneas

    "An earlier tradition that gave Romulus a distant ancestor in the semi-divine Trojan prince Aeneas was further embellished, and Romulus was made the direct ancestor of Rome's first Imperial dynasty. Possible historical bases for the broad mythological narrative remain unclear and disputed. The image of the she-wolf suckling the divinely fathered twins became an iconic representation of the city and its founding legend, making Romulus and Remus preeminent among the feral children of ancient mythography."
    Romulus and Remus.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romulus_and_Remus





    Where did you find that Aeneas ( an Anatolian dardanian ) was J-M92 ?.......or even that the Trojans where J-M92.
    If this is correct, then Antenor who took the other Trojans via the black sea, along the Danube to settle in the lands of the north Adriatic area must be the same marker ............would you agree
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Excellent post. J-M92 which is downstream of J-M67 (M-67) first radiated out from the caucasus, it's highest frequencies are associated with Nakh people's. About 87.4% of Ingush men in Malgobek are positive for M-67. Also found in 58% of Chechens from Dagestan and 55% of Chechens in Chechnya. It's also very heavy among the CHECHENS of Malgobek (Ingushetia) 50%. On a national level, 15% of Georgians are M67. Also, 10% of Cretans and north-central Italians are M-67. It can also be found sporadically across turkey,Armenia,Azerbaijan at 5-10% frequencies. As for J-M92, it is downstream of J-M67. It reaches it's highest frequencies in western turkey and southern Italy, indicating a general movement of certain particular J2 people's from the Caucasus region towards Italy. There are other subclades of J2 although in Italy as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    On Sub-saharan......this is correct. Even though the Portuguese "owned" the western and south-east African areas and bought many many slaves to Lisbon for selling purposes. The "berber" E1b1b1 marker must have been in iberia, southern france and Italy way before the iron-age as the many in swiss and tyrol areas are noted as very very old branches of it. IMO it was one of the original markers in Iberia from the bronze-age.
    I would even say this "berber" Y-E1b is for me older than any metal age: it could have been carried into all these lands at early neolithical time and even at mesolithical time (mesolithic in Iberia, maybe neolithic in Switzerland/Tyrol (some skeletons in neolithical Switzerland showed phenotypes that could confirm it, showing connexions with types of ancient sardinia and others with spouth-mediterranea types (? grimaldoids'? in part)

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    The Achaean Greeks, equivalent to the Danaans of Danaus (brother of aegyptus) are a tribe of Greeks that probably came from Egypt. The initial pelasgian Greeks (first autochtones of Greece) where probably the middle eastern Ionians, who where similar to the Medes and Anatolian groups. The Minoan era belonged to the middle easterners of Crete (J2), their fall came about when the incoming Danaans types would initiate the succeeding Mycenean era centred this time on mainland Greece (E3b). The Mycenaeans would in turn be dominated by the continental European Dorians (probably R1b but maybe even I2a or R1a.)

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    The Dorians are probably the tribe that brought along "Hellenization" of the barbarians. As for the Aeolians, they where barbarians as well. It is this combination of very anciently ancestrally Egyptian, middle eastern and continental European mix that would bring about the fall of the Trojan west Anatolian middle easterners.

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    The spread of J is very interesting. It is found in about 27% of Algerians, for example. 22% of it is J1 and 5% is J2. A whopping 78% of Chechens belong to J, of which 57% are J2 and around 20% are J1. Ingush are an incredible sample, 91% of them are J's, but 88% of it is J2, most of it M-67 I believe. In Yemen, 82% of men are J, the overwhelming majority of it J1 (73%) as is the case across the southern Middle East and North Africa. In Syria on the other hand, 55% of males are J2; 34% are J1 and 21% are J2. In Lebanon, 46% of men are J; 15-17% are J1, and 30% are J2, showing the opposite tren of Syria. Same for turkey, where J2 is 3 times more common than J1. Similar patterns continue in Mediterranean Europe, on crete for example, in the city of Heraklion J2 heavily outweighs J1. (45% J of that,44% is J2). Another study on the entire island found that 38% of Cretans where J, and 35% of that was J2. On mainland Greece, 20% of males are J. 2% of those are J1, and 18% are J2. In Italy, 22% of men are J, 2% J1 and 20% J2.

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    The highest frequencies of J2 in Italy, and nearly in all Europe, is in Calabria, where 35% of males are J2 and western Marche in central Italy, where 35% of men are J2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    The highest frequencies of J2 in Italy, and nearly in all Europe, is in Calabria, where 35% of males are J2 and western Marche in central Italy, where 35% of men are J2.
    Calabrians are also very high in the non-L11+ R1b lineages...perhaps a movement from the Balkans?

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    Yes, some Greeks must have brought some R1b L-23, the Dorians in particular, who where Hellenic Greeks must have brought the exotic R1b's to southern Italy, as they brought some J2 and E-V13 as well.

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    Haplotype 35



    "Research conducted by the administrators of the Border Reivers DNA Project has identified numerous haplotypes in persons of British descent that show Haplotype 35 markers. Moreover, most of these haplotypes appear to originate from areas of Britain near the Antonine Wall, Hadrian's Wall and other places of Roman fortification or settlement. These areas include Galloway, Dumfries, Ayrshire and The Borders in Scotland, and Cumbria, Yorkshire, Lancashire, Shropshire and Staffordshire in England. Many of the Roman troops stationed in these areas came from Southeastern Europe or Western Asia. They included Sarmatians, Dacians, Goths, Syrians, Mesopotamians, Thracians and Anatolians. The Capelli study has shown that these areas also exhibit higher than average frequencies of haplogroups E3b and J2, neither of which is native to Britain. E3b is found most commonly in North Africa, Iberia, the Mediterranean and the Near East, and J2 occurs most frequently in the Near East, the Mediterranean and Western Asia. The fact that all three groups - E3b, J2 and Haplotype 35 - have a similar origin in territories of the Roman Empire, and occur at comparable frequencies in parts of Britain with a known history of Roman settlement, suggests that they arrived in Britain through the same means."
    Elliot (And border receivers) DNA Project (Haplogroup J2) - Haplogroup R1b (Haplotype 35).
    http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....5_analysis.htm

    "The members of this haplotype are found in high numbers in Anatolia and Armenia, with smaller numbers throughout Central Asia, the Middle East, the Balkans, the Caucus Mountains, and in Jewish populations. They are also present in Britain in areas that were found to have a high concentration of Haplogroup J, suggesting they arrived together, perhaps through Roman soldiers."
    Wikipedia.org - Haplotype 35.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplotype_35
    Last edited by RHAS; 03-09-13 at 17:23.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Haplogroup J has an interesting distribution in Italy. In Reggio Di Calabria, for example, on the toe of Calabria not too far from Sicily, 3.6 out of every 10 men belong to y-DNA J; the vast majority of it J2. The city of Paola in north-central Calabria is a peak of J in all Italy. In this western coastal region 4.5 out of every 10 men belongs to J. In neighbouring Matera though, only 13% of men are J, and only 12% for Altamura as well (extreme lows). In southern Apulia, (Casarano city), about 25% of men are of the J family. Similar frequencies are observed in Brindisi (central Apulia) 24%. Northern Apulia (Foggia) near the gargano peninsula has the highest levels of J (along with Paola) 44% J. Cilento, southern Campania has 28% of J lineages. To the north, Benevento has 26% J. Also on the Molise/Apulia border (where Foggia connects with Campobasso) around 3.8 out of 10 men are J's. in central Italy, the town of Avezzano (Abruzzo region) has 20% J. L'Aquila was found to have 35% J in one study, and Pescara has 30% J. Frequencies In Verona (Veneto) are still present for some reason (27% J.) As for Genoa, Garfagnana, Val Di Non they have very low frequencies (9-10%) as the north (Gallic settlement areas) have less J obviously. In terms of the three islands (Sicily,Sardinia,Corsica) Sicily has, by far, the highest middle eastern Neolithic blood (30%), all of it J2. Whereas Corsica only has 3% J2 and Sardinia has 5%. Although, the opposite can be said in terms of E3b, as this peaks on the island of Corsica (15%), but also found in Sardinia (10%) as compared to Sicily (5%) in this study. When comparing J in Italy to frequencies in Iberia, for example, we can see that Italy peaks at 45% J, in two regions, northern Apulia, and central Calabria. Frequencies are relatively elevated though across Sicily, Apulia, campania, parts of Marche and Abruzzo, found in 20% of men across Lazio as well are J2 alone. Whereas the biggest peak in all Iberia is in Cadiz, where only 18% of men belong to J. Sicily also has abnormally high levels of y-dna F (12%) and much more J2 than E3b, insinuating a different point of arrival for these agriculturalists than the E3b ones.
    Last edited by adamo; 03-09-13 at 17:59.

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    Roman DNA

    "Dennis Cleeton from Llandrindod Wells, Powys has spent 20 years tracking his ancestors back to the 16th Century - then a chance request to take a DNA test took him back even further to the invading Roman armies."
    BBC News - DNA links pensioner with Romans
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/7804845.stm

    "De komende maanden zullen wetenschappers van de KU Leuven DNA-stalen nemen in een aantal regio's om na te gaan of er een genetische band bestaat tussen de huidige inwoners van Vlaanderen en de Romeinse bezetters van 2.000 jaar geleden."
    Leven er nog Romeinen in Vlaanderen?
    http://www.deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuw...land/1.1441551

    Transated: The comming months researchers of the University of Leuven will collect DNA samples in a number of regions to see if there is a genetic link between the current inhabitants of Flanders and the Roman occupiers from 2000 years go.

    "Bij 50 inwoners van Snellegem is een DNA-staal genomen. Dat gebeurde in het kader van een onderzoek van de KU Leuven. Wetenschappers willen nagaan of er in de regio nog mensen zijn met een genetische band met de Romeinse bezetters."
    DNA-test gaat op zoek naar nakomelingen van de Romeinen in Snellegem
    http://www.focus-wtv.be/nieuws/algem...0186010538.htm

    Translated: DNA samples of 50 Snellegem inhabitants was collected. This happend in the light of the University of Leuven`s research project. Sientist are trying to determine of there is a genetic link between the current inhabitants and the Roman invaders.

    "In hoeverre stammen de Vlamingen nog af van de Romeinen die onze gebieden 2000 jaar geleden bezetten? Dat proberen wetenschappers van de universiteit van Leuven te achterhalen. Ze doen daarvoor een groot DNA-onderzoek. Mannen op verschillende plaatsen in Vlaanderen staan vrijwillig een speekselstaal af om dat te laten analyseren."
    Stammen we af van de Romeinen?
    http://nieuws.vtm.be/binnenland/2013...an-de-romeinen

    Translated: To what extend are Flemish people descendant of Romans who occupied these areas 2000 years ago? Researchers of the Leuven University are trying to determine that. They will do this by means of a large DNA project. Men at different locations in Flanders are volunteering to have their DNA samples collected.

    "Parys Mountain is one of only three sites in Wales which have evidence of copper mining during the Bronze and Roman Ages."
    BBC News - DNA test to prove Bronze Age link.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/w...st/8007969.stm

    Last edited by RHAS; 03-09-13 at 21:46.

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    Romans, agriculture/viticulture.

    "Agriculture in ancient Rome was not only a necessity, but was idealized among the social elite as a way of life. Cicero considered farming the best of all Roman occupations. In his treatise On Duties, he declared that "of all the occupations by which gain is secured, none is better than agriculture, none more profitable, none more delightful, none more becoming to a free man." When one of his clients was derided in court for preferring a rural lifestyle, Cicero defended country life as "the teacher of economy, of industry, and of justice" (parsimonia, diligentia, iustitia). Cato, Columella, Varro and Palladius wrote handbooks on farming practice. The staple crop was spelt, and bread was the mainstay of every Roman table. In his treatise De agricultura ("On Farming", 2nd century BC), Cato wrote that the best farm was a vineyard, followed by an irrigated garden, willow plantation, olive orchard, meadow, grain land, forest trees, vineyard trained on trees, and lastly acorn woodlands."
    Roman Agriculture.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_agriculture

    Last edited by RHAS; 09-09-13 at 17:01.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    So only the Roman Republic and the early Roman Empire [Augustus/Tiberius] can truly be considered Roman (Italic/Etruscan) and it was during this time (Republic-Tiberius) that Rome became an ancient super-power and conquered its Empire; And therefor that epoch is far from Irrelevant;
    Haplogroup J2 M172 & Expansion Map of the Roman Empire.



    Haplogroup J2 M172 - Roman Republic.


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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a1a3 (T-PF7443)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Italy



    The highest European frequencies of J are in Cyprus (36%), Crete (36%), Sicily (30%), Mainland Italy (25%) Mainland Greece (20%), Malta (20%), Albania (15%), Bulgaria (10%), Romania (10%), Spain (10%), Portugal (10%).

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    Romans & Haplogroup J2.

    "J2a`s strong presence in Italy is owed in great part to the migration of the Etruscans from western Anatolia to central and northern Italy, and to the Greek colonisation of southern Italy. Immigration from the eastern Mediterranean to Rome during the Roman Empire, then from Anatolia, Thrace and Greece during the Byzantine period period (particularly in north-eastern Italy) further increased the incidence of j2 in the peninsula."
    Eupedia.com - Haplogroup J2. (2013)
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

    "The likely deep ancestry source of Haplogroup J2 as found along the Anglo-Scottish border is probably to be found with members of the Roman Legions which were stationed along Hadrian's wall."
    Border receivers - DNA Report Nov 2005.
    http://www.borderreivers.co.uk/DNA%2...20Nov%2005.htm
    Last edited by RHAS; 09-09-13 at 17:10.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    The Achaean Greeks, equivalent to the Danaans of Danaus (brother of aegyptus) are a tribe of Greeks that probably came from Egypt. The initial pelasgian Greeks (first autochtones of Greece) where probably the middle eastern Ionians, who where similar to the Medes and Anatolian groups. The Minoan era belonged to the middle easterners of Crete (J2), their fall came about when the incoming Danaans types would initiate the succeeding Mycenean era centred this time on mainland Greece (E3b). The Mycenaeans would in turn be dominated by the continental European Dorians (probably R1b but maybe even I2a or R1a.)
    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    The Dorians are probably the tribe that brought along "Hellenization" of the barbarians. As for the Aeolians, they where barbarians as well. It is this combination of very anciently ancestrally Egyptian, middle eastern and continental European mix that would bring about the fall of the Trojan west Anatolian middle easterners.
    "The majority of the haplogroups (R1a-M17, G2a-P15, I2-M438, J1-M267 and J2b-M102) shows times since expansion which ranges from approximately 4,5Kya to 2,7Kya, compatible with Bronze Age and the development of the Helladic civilizations, more specifically with the spread of Mycenaean culture (Montjoy 1998)."
    The Genetic Signature of Neolithic in Greece.
    http://amsdottorato.cib.unibo.it/362...Paolo_tesi.pdf

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    Romans & Haplogroup J2.

    "The Plantagenets are a bit more difficult to predict as some speculate that they are related to the Carpetian kings of France and descended from Roman citizens in the haplogroup J2 or G2."
    Y-DNA of the British Monarchy.
    http://www.surnamedna.com/?articles=...itish-monarchy
    Last edited by RHAS; 04-10-13 at 19:24.

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