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Thread: Haplogroup J2, Romans, Christianity and Viticulture

  1. #101
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a1a3 (T-PF7443)
    MtDNA haplogroup
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    J-M67 on the other hand maxes out in 13% of Georgian men. It's also found in 10% of north-central Italians, 8% of Albanian Greek community members from Calabria, 6% of balkarians, 5% of Ashkenazi Jews, 4.5% of Greeks, 4.5% of Iraqis etc.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a1a3 (T-PF7443)
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    J-M92 maxes out in 7% of Apulians, also found in 6.5% of Calabrian Albanians, 5% of Ashkenazi Jews, 4.5% of Turks from Konya, 4% of Turks from Istanbul, less than 3% of Greeks etc.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Of the 10-20% of Moroccan Arabs/Berbers that are hg J virtually all of it is J1. Same for the 35% of Algerians and Tunisians that are J, it is all j1. All of the 35% of Amhara males from Ethiopia that tested positive for J are J1. Ethiopia's Oromo people on the other hand have only 3-4% J (all J1). Of the 51% of Iraqis that are J, 22% are J2 and 29% are J1. About 38% of Lebanese males belong to J, 27% are J2 and 11% are J1. Muslim Kurds are about 40% J; 10% J1 and 30% J2. Palestinians are 55% J; only about 15-17% is J2 and the other nearly 40% is J1. Bedouins of the Arabian peninsula are 65% J: 62% is J1. Ashkenazi Jews are 38% J: 23% is J2. Istanbul Turks have 25% J; 20% is J2 and Konya Turks had 31% J of which all is J2; Georgians have 33% J; 27% is J2.

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    Note! : Eupedia forum rule nr. 4. STAY ON TOPIC

    "Avoid posting messages that are out of context or irrelevant to a topic. While we encourage your participation, such posts will either be moved to another forum or deleted in order to ensure a thread`s consistency. If you do want to write a post that is to off topic you can always start a new thread."

    Topic = Haplogroup J2, Romans, Christianity and Viticulture. (And the relationship between them, ..... so no unsourced summaries of frequencies spread out over several posts that have no relation to the topic !)

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Haplogroup J2 and Romans.

    "Het onderzoek wees uit, dat het DNA profiel van de familie Lemmens uit de Sambeecksen Hoeck overeenkomt met Haplogroep J2. Deze Haplogroep J2 werd waargenomen bij enkele families (o.a. ook de familie van Kuppeveld) in en rond het Land van Cuijk. De oorsprong van Haplogroep J2 is het Midden Oosten. De onderzoekers stelden vast, dat de familie Lemmens vermoedelijk afstamt van de Romeinen die zich in het begin van de jaartelling ophielden in de Lage Landen, in het bijzonder in het Land van Cuijk en omstreken van Nijmegen."
    Brabants Historisch Informatie Centrum - De herkomst van de familie Lemmens. (Dutch)
    http://www.bhic.nl/site/popup.php?id=12872

    "Een manlijke deelnemer van deze genealogie behoort tot de haplogroep J2a. Een Haplogroep die veel voorkomt in het Noord-Oostelijk deel van Noord-Brabant, vermoedelijk aldaar gekomen via de Romeinse nederzetting te Nijmegen."
    Piet Verdonk Homepage - Genetische Genealogisch Onderzoek (DNA). (Dutch)
    http://verdonk.home.xs4all.nl/DNA_Verbinding_stb_3.htm

    "My paternal ancestors were mostly farmworkers or self-employed craftsmen of no great social standing. I can trace my line back to the 18th century (confirmed) and as far back as the late 1500s (conjectural). Our Y-DNA Haplogroup of J-M205 (J2b1, old J2b1b) would be considered, quite unambiguously, a potential “Roman Ancestry” DNA signature, being connected in earlier times to the Greek and Thracian Settlements in the Mediterranean basin. As a matter of fact, when confronted with the J2 haplotype by one of his British customers, even Dr. Bryan Sykes of Oxford Ancestors eventually suggested a Roman origin."
    K. Pople, Pople Family Association.
    http://poplefa.carbonmade.com/projects/4638348
    Last edited by RHAS; 26-10-13 at 09:00.

  6. #106
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    Haplogroup J2 and Romans.

    "The very name "Van Santen" means "from" or "of" Santen. The only Santen found (now known as "Xanten") is an ancient walled German town with a strong Roman history, at one time strategically located on the Rhine river (the river has since altered course somewhat). My genealogy is well-documented to the early 1500's from where my earliest known ancestor had settled by the 16th Century, near the mouth of the same Rhine river, and the furthest west one could have gone short of crossing the channel to England."
    Van Santen DNA Project (Haplogroup J2).
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/van-santen/


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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Haplogroup J2 and Romans.

    "Nog een aardigheidje voor Oost-Brabant: daar is een relatieve concentratie van haplogroep J gevonden. Volgens genetisch genealogen zijn die mensen waarschijnlijk nazaten van de oude Romeinen, gelegerd in Noviomagus (Nijmegen) of rond Locus Paludosus (De Peel)."
    Eindhovens Dagblad - Veel DNA komt uit Spanje en Scandinavië. (Dutch)
    http://www.ed.nl/regio/4449996/Veel-...candinavie.ece

    Translated: One remarkable fact about this research is the concentration of J(2) found in the province of North Brabant, Genetic Genealogist believe these people are decended from Roman Soldiers stationed in Noviomagus (City of Nijmegen) and Locus Paludosis (De Peel)"




    Noviomagus (Nijmegen).



    "Ulpia Noviomagus Batavorum is de naam van Nijmegen in de laat-Romeinse tijd; het voorvoegsel Ulpia verwijst naar keizer Marcus Ulpius Traianus hetgeen het mogelijk maakt de naam te dateren op 104 n.C. Voorheen stond de plaats bekend onder de naam Oppidum Batavorum. Of Batavodurum (versterkte stad van de Bataven) inderdaad dezelfde nederzetting aanduidt, is niet zeker."
    Ulpia Noviomagus Batavorum (Dutch)
    http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulpia_Noviomagus_Batavorum
    Last edited by RHAS; 31-10-13 at 13:43.

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    Locus Paludosis (De Peel)



    This documentary explores not only the Roman helmet itself, but also the stories told about it over the past 100 years. How did a soldier's golden helmet end up in the marsh? Who was the mysterious knight of De Peel? And did the peat-cutters find the entire hoard of treasure? Over the past hundred years all these questions have received many different answers, some based on the facts and some on fiction. The helmet has stirred many people's imaginations. It was a magnificent find, one of the leading twentieth-century archaeological discoveries in the Netherlands. The gold of the helmet was analysed and showed to be comming from Roman workshops in Constantinople during the age of Christian Roman emperor Constantine.
    Last edited by RHAS; 31-10-13 at 14:53.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Haplogroup J2(b2) and Romans.



    The small hotspot in North West Europe on the left in the J2b2 map seems to be situated around the now French town of Bologne-Sur-Mer, in Roman times known as Gesoriacum, the port Portus Itius was believed to be situated there. The bigger hotspot on the right seems to have its center between the river Meuse and the Rhine. This area was heavily Romanized with dozens of fortresses and/or towns (many are not shown on this map), most notably the Dutch city of Nijmegen (In Roman times called Noviomagus), the German city of Koln in Roman times know as Colonia Agrippina (which was the largest Roman city north of the Alps), the Belgian town of Tongeren in Roman times called Atuatuca, the modern German city of Xanten with its fortress Castra Vetera and the modern German City of Neuss in Roman times called Novaesium. The last 2 seems to be right in the center of the J2b2 Hotspot.

    J2a members with Xanten derived surnames like Santen are also reported in these areas. While most agree that the name of the city is derived from an executed Roman soldier from the Theban legion who later became a saint, there are those who connect its name to the river god Scamandros/Xanthos who dwelled near the river Scamander in the vicinity of Troy. There is also a river named Xanthus in Anatolia.

    All major Roman settlements north of Mainz (Britain excluded) are located in the 2 J2b2 areas. Many Roman legions were stationed in this area over the years, for instance; Legio V Alaudae, Legio XX Valeria Victrix, Legio X Gemina, Legio IV Macedonica and Ala I Thracum an auxiliary unit with Thracian Horsemen. It is known that the Romans used the Balkans as a major recruiting area for legionnaires and there are artifacts known that suggest some of these legionairs settled in the Rhineland after their military service was completed. Interesting also are the references to Troy in this region which include; The Trojan heritage claimed by the Dukes of Kleve, The Roman history writer Tacitus who tells of Greek inscriptions at the fortress of Asciburgium connected to Odysseus (just like the Portuguese city Lisbon), and the Frankish Trojan origin myth regarding the Sicambri tribe.



    "De R1b-Nederlanders zijn waarschijnlijk vanuit het Iberisch schiereiland (Spanje/Portugal) in ons land terechtgekomen, terwijl haplogroep I Scandinavisch (Noormannen of Friezen?) bloed in de aderen heeft. Nog een aardigheidje voor Oost-Brabant: daar is een relatieve concentratie van haplogroep J gevonden. Volgens genetisch genealogen zijn die mensen waarschijnlijk nazaten van de oude Romeinen, gelegerd in Noviomagus (Nijmegen) of rond Locus Paludosus (De Peel)."
    Artikel/Boekrecensie "Zonen van Adam in Nederland", Eindhovens Dagblad dinsdag 03 februari 2009.

    "R1b3 komt vooral voor op de zandgronden in het binnenland en I aan de kust. Het voorkomen van J houdt mogelijk verband met de Romeinse tijd. Zij komen m.n. voor in Noord-Oost Brabant, waar het Romeinse leger nog lang aanwezig is geweest. Wellicht dat ook het voorkomen van de haplogroepen G en E hiermee verband houden."
    Project Genetische Genealogie 2008, Website Nederlandse Genealogische Vereniging 2011.


    "„Ceterum et Ulixen quidam opinantur longo illo et fabuloso errore in hunc Oceanum delatum adisse Germaniae terras, Asciburgiumque, quod in ripa Rheni situm hodieque incolitur, ab illo constitutum nominatumque; aram quin etiam Ulixi consecratam, adiecto Laertae patris nomine, eodem loco olim repertam, monumentaque et tumulos quosdam Graecis litteris inscriptos in confinio Germaniae Raetiaeque adhuc extare.“
    Tacitus, Germania.

    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niederr...er_Trojamythos
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanten
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limes
    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skamandros

    ------------------------------



    Ancient Tartessos was an old harbor city/trading post mentioned first in Greek sources from about the middle of the first millennium BC. Greeks and Phoenicians competed to gain influence in the Tartessos region. The area was rich in metals. A Tartessian king with the name Arganthonios is known to have invited a Greek group of Phocaeans (close to Troy, Xanthus and Phrygia) to settle in his city. He also gave them large amounts of silver to pay for defensive measures for the Phocaeans homeland in Asia Minor. Greek trading posts are believed to have existed in this region, like Portus Menesthei which surprisingly enough is linked to a Trojan myth regarding the settlement of the Trojan king Menestheus in Iberia. Lisbon on the edge of the J2b2 heatmap area in Portugal has an origin myth connected to Odysseus, just like the Rhineland fortress of Asciburgium. Tartessos is believed by some to be the legendary city of Atlantis. It is in this region that the Pillars of Hercules are located and here Hercules/Heracles stole the Cattle of Geryon as one of his Ten Labours. It is the home of the Spanish cult of the Bull as much as Knossos, was the home of the Minoan cult of the Bull. Tartessos was probably destroyed by Cathagians, but recent finds also show a flood event at the time of its disappearance from history. The Conii or Cynetes are a group of people we find in the Algarve region in Roman times after the fall of Tartessos. While they lived in Celtic areas it is Herodotus who distinguished them from the Celts. The Conii were allied to Rome. Several Roman cities existed in the region. A retirement settlement for Roman legionnaires from the Legions V Alaudae (also present in Xanten, Rhineland and Dacia, Balkans) and X Gemina (also present in the Rhineland and the Balkans) was built at Merida (Emerito Augusta). Biblical archeologists often identify the place-name Tarshish in the Hebrew Bible with Tartessos, though others connect it to Tarsus in Anatolia (see Anatolia/Asia Minor Cluster) or other places as far as India. (See entry for Jonah in the Jewish Encyclopedia.) Tarshish, like Tartessos, is associated with extensive mineral wealth (Iberian Pyrite Belt)." While the origins of the Tartessians remains unknown, it is known they were in contact with ancient Greeks (Phocaeans) who even seem to have settled in the region, based on that fact it seems possible for the J2b2`s in the Portugal region to have Greek ancestry. Another origin possibility for the J2b2s in this region would be the settlement of Roman legionnaires with Thracian, Macedonian or Greek ancestry, from the same stock that would populate the Rhineland.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartessos
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartessian_language
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lissabon
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerita_Augusta
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynetes
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocaea
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odysseus
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arganthonios
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legio_V_Alaudae
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legio_X_Gemina

    -------------------------------------------------



    The Northern hotspot in Anatolia on the J2b2 heatmap corresponds to the territory of the ancient Bithynians and Phrygians. The Bithynians are immigrants to Asia Minor from the Balkans, their original homeland is situated in Thrace were they were called the Thyni. Phrygians (ca. 1200 - 700 BC) are also ancient immigrants to Anatolia from the Balkans (Macedonia) were they were originally known as the Bryges. The Phrygians were allied to Troy and participated in the Trojan wars. Phrygians are also known for the Gordian Knot legend which together with their Macedonian ancestry links them to Alexander the Great and for their Phrygian Cap which would be the hat the god Mithras (popular with Roman Legionnaires) is wearing. Herodotus claims the Phrygians founded the Armenian Nation. Both areas were also Roman provinces. The origin history of the people/region in the south of Asia Minor is slightly harder to connect directly to the Balkans/Greece but it is situated roughly were we find the Hellenized Armenian Seleucid Kingdom(s) of Commagene and Sophene, and on a side note the ancient site of Gobekli Tepe wich by some is believed to be the original garden of Eden. The Commagene dynasty claimed ties with Alexander the Great (Macedonia) and Antiochus I Theos of Commagene was allied to the Roman general Pompey. Anatolia in general is also the place where we find the city of Troy, the river Xanthus and the city of Tarsus. Anatolia was part of the Roman empire for about 15 centuries. (Roman Empire + Byzantium) While it’s possible that the J2b2`s found in Anatolia, immigrated to Asia minor as Roman Soldiers (recruited from Thrace and/or Macedon) or have some form of Greek heritage, they seem to be especially linked to Bithynians and Phrygians whose origins are documented by Greek historians like Herodotus to be situated in the Balkans (Macedonia & Thrace).

    "Several authors have proposed that the Indo-European language presently spoken by Armenians arose during the Bronze Age, when Indo-European speaking tribes from the Balkans and Greece invaded Anatolia and Transcaucasia, leading to the subsequent spread of their culture and language. In this study, we have detected a number of lineages that are prominent in the Balkans (I2*, I2b*, J2b1 and J2b2) at low levels throughout Ararat Valley, Gardman and Lake Van, the latter of which also contains haplogroups commonly associated with Bronze Age Greece (ie, J2a8-M319 (4.9%), and E1b1b1-M78 and its sublineages (3.9%)). While this may suggest genetic input from early Greek or Phrygian tribes, it is also possible that these low levels of Balkan lineages arrived in Armenia at a later time, such as during one of the many incursions into the area during the reign of the Macedonian, Roman and Byzantine empires."
    Neolithic patrilineal signals indicate that the Armenian plateau was repopulated by agriculturalists.
    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2011192a.html

    "I-P37 and J-M12 are dated to 1,100BC and 1,200BC, at around the time that e.g. the Phrygians from the Balkans are believed to have migrated to Asia Minor. I-P37 and J-M12 reach their maxima in areas north of Greece where the Phrygians are said to have originated."

    How Y-STR variance accumulates: a comment on Zhivotovsky, Underhill and Feldman (2006)
    http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2008/07/...s-comment.html

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygians
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bithynia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seleucid
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commagene
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophene
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scamander
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarsus
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanthus
    Last edited by RHAS; 31-10-13 at 19:12.

  10. #110
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    1 And in those days, in the ninety-first year of the life of Abram, the children of Chittim made war with the children of Tubal, for when the Lord had scattered the sons of men upon the face of the earth, the children of Chittim went and embodied themselves in the plain of Canopia, and they built themselves cities there and dwelt by the river Tibreu.
    2 And the children of Tubal dwelt in Tuscanah, and their boundaries reached the river Tibreu, and the children of Tubal built a city in Tuscanan, and they called the name Sabinah, after the name of Sabinah son of Tubal their father, and they dwelt there unto this day.

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    It would seem the SABINES were the sons of Georgian Tubal and the Samnites derive from them.

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    Both the Sabines AND their derived Samnites seem to be Georgians from the Caucasus region and a nearby people I suspect of being Etruscan were the "Kittim". The Kittim were Cypriots of Assyrian stock. They trace back to Hittites and are either represented by Ionian or Achaean Greeks.

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    The mediaeval rabbinic compilation Yosippon contains a detailed account of the Kittim. As the peoples spread out, it says, the Kittim camped in Campania and built a city called "Posomanga", while descendants of Tubal camped in neighboring Tuscany and built "Sabino", with the Tiber river as their frontier. However, they soon went to war following the rape of the Sabines by the Kittim, who are correlated to the Romans. This war was ended when the Kittim showed the descendants of Tubal their mutual progeny. They then built cities called Porto, Albano, and Aresah. Later, their territory is occupied by Agnias, King of Carthage, but the Kittim end up appointing Zepho, son of Eliphaz and grandson of Esau, as their king, with the title Janus Saturnus. The first king of Rome, Romulus, is made in this account to be a distant successor of this line. A shorter, more garbled version of this story is also found in the later Sefer haYashar.

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    It seems that when the sons of Tubal arrived in central Italy they built the city of Sabino and are the Sabines. The Etruscans may be of similar stock .

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    Wether the Umbrians were celts or not (right now I feel they are Danube region celts) we have debunked the Celtic Sabine and Samnites mystery; these people were NOT celts...now to figure out the aedui, Volscian,etc...

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    This though contradicts the Osco-Umbrian-sabellian language theories but with this direct evidence it may not matter for the ethnic/genetic groups.

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    All we know is there are Kittim (Cypriots) and proto-Georgians, that at one point or another settled central Italy and still some few men descend from me today.

  18. #118
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    And this is without counting the Etruscans, who spoke a language most similar to proto-Armenian. So the Sabines descending from Tubal it is thus correct to associate them with Tibarrenoi and the Sannoi (Samnites) of the northeastern turkey/Georgia region.

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    20% hg T in Sabine regions....and I thought the Cretans that settled Apulia or calabria's Greeks where "exotic" element, the Etruscans descendants of Lydia would have came from western turkey whereas the Sabines where legitimate Georgians from the Caucasus establishing their little kingdom in central Italy. Their apparent Piceni offshoots would move to centralMarche and the Samnites poured into southern Italy at low densities.
    Last edited by adamo; 30-10-13 at 21:01.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RHAS View Post
    Aeneas and J-M92.

    Just some funny myth in this J-M92 maps regard i just noticed. The red area in Anatolia is were Troy was situated. Aeneas and his family, when he fled Troy, eventually ended up in Cumae near Naples (the other red area in Italy) were he saw some priestes of Apollo. She told him his descendants would create the Roman Empire. (Romulus and Remus)

    "In Greco-Roman mythology, Aeneas (/ɪˈniːəs/; Greek: Αἰνείας, Aineías, possibly derived from Greek αἰνή meaning "praise") was a Trojan hero, the son of the prince Anchises and the goddess Aphrodite. His father was the second cousin of King Priam of Troy, making Aeneas Priam's second cousin, once removed. He is a character in Greek mythology and is mentioned in Homer's Iliad, and receives full treatment in Roman mythology as the legendary founder of what would become Ancient Rome, most extensively in Virgil's Aeneid."
    Aeneas.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneas

    "An earlier tradition that gave Romulus a distant ancestor in the semi-divine Trojan prince Aeneas was further embellished, and Romulus was made the direct ancestor of Rome's first Imperial dynasty. Possible historical bases for the broad mythological narrative remain unclear and disputed. The image of the she-wolf suckling the divinely fathered twins became an iconic representation of the city and its founding legend, making Romulus and Remus preeminent among the feral children of ancient mythography."
    Romulus and Remus.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romulus_and_Remus

    Haplogroup J-M92



    Map Navigatio Troiani Aeneas



    Map travels of Aeneas.

    "The J2f-M67 clade is localized to Northwest Turkey. It is well known that during this period, Northwest Anatolia developed a complex society that engaged in widespread Aegean trade referred to as "Maritime Troia culture," involving both the western Anatolian mainland and several of the large islands in the eastern Aegean, Chios, Lemnos and Lesbos (Korfmann 1996)."
    Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia.
    http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Cinnioglu2004.pdf

    "2.1. The Maritime Troy Culture.The coastline of the North Aegean and the costal regions of the Marmara Sea were determined as the area of distribution of the “Maritime Troy Culture”, which encompasses the first three settlement phases of Troy from c. 2920 to 2200 BC (KORFMANN 2006:4). In more general terms this is the period of the Early Bronze Age (EBA)"
    http://tobias-lib.uni-tuebingen.de/v...ss_Guendem.pdf

    Last edited by RHAS; 31-10-13 at 21:26.

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    Whoever disliked my comment on the Sabines, you'll see that I was correct.

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    The Samnites and Sabines merged with Umbrians and Oscans; these were all different people's fused with one another.

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    hittites in europe 1800BC

    http://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogsp...k-new.html?m=1

    one of their groups surely entered Europe and headed north
    Last edited by Sile; 04-11-13 at 18:35.
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    I must say that is very interesting.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I like how RHs has clearly linked a maximum high of J-M92 not too far from Troy and how then again it peaks in southern Italy.

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