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Thread: Haplogroup J2, Romans, Christianity and Viticulture

  1. #126
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I also link how he has eternally linked the Tartessians with hg J2 and with either (probably) Greeks or maybe even the Phoenicians. A professional and E-X-C-E-L-L-E-N-T post.

  2. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by RHAS View Post
    Haplogroup J2(b2) and Romans.



    The small hotspot in North West Europe on the left in the J2b2 map seems to be situated around the now French town of Bologne-Sur-Mer, in Roman times known as Gesoriacum, the port Portus Itius was believed to be situated there. The bigger hotspot on the right seems to have its center between the river Meuse and the Rhine. This area was heavily Romanized with dozens of fortresses and/or towns (many are not shown on this map), most notably the Dutch city of Nijmegen (In Roman times called Noviomagus), the German city of Koln in Roman times know as Colonia Agrippina (which was the largest Roman city north of the Alps), the Belgian town of Tongeren in Roman times called Atuatuca, the modern German city of Xanten with its fortress Castra Vetera and the modern German City of Neuss in Roman times called Novaesium. The last 2 seems to be right in the center of the J2b2 Hotspot.

    J2a members with Xanten derived surnames like Santen are also reported in these areas. While most agree that the name of the city is derived from an executed Roman soldier from the Theban legion who later became a saint, there are those who connect its name to the river god Scamandros/Xanthos who dwelled near the river Scamander in the vicinity of Troy. There is also a river named Xanthus in Anatolia.

    All major Roman settlements north of Mainz (Britain excluded) are located in the 2 J2b2 areas. Many Roman legions were stationed in this area over the years, for instance; Legio V Alaudae, Legio XX Valeria Victrix, Legio X Gemina, Legio IV Macedonica and Ala I Thracum an auxiliary unit with Thracian Horsemen. It is known that the Romans used the Balkans as a major recruiting area for legionnaires and there are artifacts known that suggest some of these legionairs settled in the Rhineland after their military service was completed. Interesting also are the references to Troy in this region which include; The Trojan heritage claimed by the Dukes of Kleve, The Roman history writer Tacitus who tells of Greek inscriptions at the fortress of Asciburgium connected to Odysseus (just like the Portuguese city Lisbon), and the Frankish Trojan origin myth regarding the Sicambri tribe.



    "De R1b-Nederlanders zijn waarschijnlijk vanuit het Iberisch schiereiland (Spanje/Portugal) in ons land terechtgekomen, terwijl haplogroep I Scandinavisch (Noormannen of Friezen?) bloed in de aderen heeft. Nog een aardigheidje voor Oost-Brabant: daar is een relatieve concentratie van haplogroep J gevonden. Volgens genetisch genealogen zijn die mensen waarschijnlijk nazaten van de oude Romeinen, gelegerd in Noviomagus (Nijmegen) of rond Locus Paludosus (De Peel)."
    Artikel/Boekrecensie "Zonen van Adam in Nederland", Eindhovens Dagblad dinsdag 03 februari 2009.

    "R1b3 komt vooral voor op de zandgronden in het binnenland en I aan de kust. Het voorkomen van J houdt mogelijk verband met de Romeinse tijd. Zij komen m.n. voor in Noord-Oost Brabant, waar het Romeinse leger nog lang aanwezig is geweest. Wellicht dat ook het voorkomen van de haplogroepen G en E hiermee verband houden."
    Project Genetische Genealogie 2008, Website Nederlandse Genealogische Vereniging 2011.


    "„Ceterum et Ulixen quidam opinantur longo illo et fabuloso errore in hunc Oceanum delatum adisse Germaniae terras, Asciburgiumque, quod in ripa Rheni situm hodieque incolitur, ab illo constitutum nominatumque; aram quin etiam Ulixi consecratam, adiecto Laertae patris nomine, eodem loco olim repertam, monumentaque et tumulos quosdam Graecis litteris inscriptos in confinio Germaniae Raetiaeque adhuc extare.“
    Tacitus, Germania.

    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niederr...er_Trojamythos
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanten
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limes
    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skamandros
    "J2b2a-L283 was discovered by Family Tree DNA through its "Walk Through The Y" program, and is predominantly Middle-Eastern, Mediterranean and European. The M12/M241 frequency peak in the Balkan Peninsula and Italy observed by Semino et al. [35] and Cruciani et al. [45], may instead belong to sub-clade L283. A recent Z631 sub-branch expansion from east to west through the heart of Europe to the UK along with presence in Italy and Spain might be associated with Roman expansion using mercenaries and slaves acquired in the Balkans."
    Generation of high-resolution a priori Y-chromosome phylogenies using "next-generation" sequencing data.
    http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/e...802.1.full.pdf
    Last edited by RHAS; 27-11-13 at 08:49.

  3. #128
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    Haplogroup J2 and Romans (Etruscans)

    "Haplogroup J2: (Greco-Anatolian) Bronze Age immigrants – this haplogroup is reasonably common in southern Europe; it may be associated with the Etruscans, the Minoans and the Phoenicians. Its presence across European populations is theorised to have come about via Roman colonisation (including the stationing of Roman troops all over the empire). About 20% of Romans belonged to haplogroup J (probably via Etruscan and Greek ancestors). This haplogroup is apparently associated with bull worship – which was probably not common among early Indo-Europeans. Haplogroup J2 is most common in Turkey and surrounding regions."
    Y-DNA Haplogroups of Europe.
    http://romanpagan.blogspot.nl/2013/0...of-europe.html

  4. #129
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    R-l150

    Northern Italian from am area of a couple roman named towns- now living in canada. My Y chromosone came back with haplogroup R-L150, when researching the clusters of 1000+ or more, each of those areas had roman garrisons, roughly the same time period, throughout europe- only a few places in Italy, morocco, middle east and central europe, and a few surprising areas but again areas where romans were known to have had an outpost. A few anomalies can be explained by later migration. Also a surprise is that no clusters show up in present day Turkey, except for around Van. The question is what time frame do these haplogroups and subgroups cover? Or are we in early days of DNA research?

  5. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnycanuck View Post
    Northern Italian from am area of a couple roman named towns- now living in canada. My Y chromosone came back with haplogroup R-L150, when researching the clusters of 1000+ or more, each of those areas had roman garrisons, roughly the same time period, throughout europe- only a few places in Italy, morocco, middle east and central europe, and a few surprising areas but again areas where romans were known to have had an outpost. A few anomalies can be explained by later migration. Also a surprise is that no clusters show up in present day Turkey, except for around Van. The question is what time frame do these haplogroups and subgroups cover? Or are we in early days of DNA research?
    Exactly, early days of DNA research.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

  6. #131
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    Haplogroup J2 and Romans.

    "Based on the results from the Benelux Y-DNA Project it can be inferred that the Frank`s main paternal lineage was haplogroup R1b-U106, and that they belong overwhemingly the Z381 subclade. They also possesed other typical Germanic lineages like I1, I2a2a and R1a (L664 and Z283 subclades), although their ratio to R1b-U106 would have been 1:2, 1:6 and 1:7 respectivly. Like modern Scandinavians, the Franks also probably carried a substantial amount of R1b-P312 lineages, including the l21, U152 and DF27 subclades, as well as a minority of E-V13, G2a3b1 and J2. Since all these lineages are also typical of popultion of Celtic or Italic (including Roman) descent, is not clear at present what proportion of these lineages in the Benelux can be attributed to the Gauls and the Romans, as opposed to the Franks."
    Eupedia.com - A brief history of the Franks.
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/franki...n_europe.shtml

    "The Frankish mythology that has survived in primary sources is comparable to that of the Aeneas and Romulus myths take in Roman mythology, but altered to suit Germanic tastes. Like many Germanic peoples, the Franks told a founding myth story to explain their connection with peoples of classical history. In the case of the Franks, these peoples were the Sicambri and the Trojans."
    Wikipedia - Frankish Mythology.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankish_mythology

    "Between 600 BCE and 300 BCE the Greeks founded colonies along the Mediterranean coast of France, founding Agde, Mareille, Hyeres and Nice. The ancient Greeks would have brought chiefly haplogroups E1b1b and J2 with them, with also a minority of G2a, J1, R1b-L23 and T. Then came the Romans, who stayed for 500 years in Gaul. The Romans are thought have belonged essentially to R1b-U152, with substantial minorities of E1b1b (probably more E-M123), G2a (especially G2a3b1a), J1, J2 (both J2a and J2b2), and T."
    Eupedia.com - Ancient Ancestry Project: Benelux & France.
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/benelu..._project.shtml
    Last edited by RHAS; 04-04-14 at 02:48.

  7. #132
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    Viticulture. (Mesopotamians, Iranians, Egypt, Greeks, Phoenicians, Phrygians, Romans. etc.)





    Quote Originally Posted by RHAS View Post
    "Wine making spread to Crete during the Minoan period and then later to Italy with the Etruscans and to Iberia with the Phoenicians. It was an integral component of the economy and social culture of the proto-greek civilizations and the phoenicians who both went on to settle other mediterranean coastal regions. And tracing the spread of Viticulture from its origins to its spread before the Roman period, we can see te highest levels of Haplogroup J2 today correlate with the geographical centres of all these civilizations. While viticulture may not represent the first wave of M172 migrants to Europe, M172 certainly played a strong role in bringing Viticulture to Europe with such civilizations as the Minoans, Greeks and Phoenicians."
    M172 Blog - Correlations in the spread of Viticulture and Haplogroup J2, 2008.
    http://m172.blogspot.nl/2008/10/corr...ticulture.html

    Last edited by RHAS; 04-04-14 at 02:27.

  8. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by RHAS View Post
    "Romans surely helped spread haplogroup J2 across its borders, judging from the distribution of J2 within Europe (frequency over 5%) wich bears an uncanny resemblance to the borders of the Roman Empire."
    Eupedia.com, 2013.

    -----------------------------------------

    J2-M172 Y-DNA European Countries Population Estimate Top 25 + Civilisations.
    (Top 25 of all countries included in this research & major civilisations/tribes they were part of.)

    1. Turkey/Anatolia (8.966.912) - (Ancient Greece*, Thrace, Roman Empire, Byzantium, Ottoman Empire)
    2. Italy (5.513.513) - (Ancient Greece*, Etruscan, Roman Empire, Byzantium, Holy Roman Empire)
    3. France (2.198.498) - (Ancient Greece*, Roman Empire, Frankish Empire, Holy Roman Empire)
    4. Russia (2.137.766) - (Ancient Greece*, Sarmatia, Scythia, Russian Empire)
    5. Germany (1.829.382) - (Germania, Roman Empire, Frankish Empire, Holy Roman Empire)
    6. Ukraine (1.457.757) - (Ancient Greece*, Sarmatia, Scythia)
    7. Romania (1.420.153) - (Ancient Greece*, Thrace, Roman Empire, Ottoman Empire)
    8. Spain (1.417.960) - (Ancient Greece*, Phoenician, Roman Empire, Gothic Kingdom, Moors, Spanish Empire)
    9. Greece (1.238.300) - (Ancient Greece*, Greek Seleucid Empire*, Roman Empire, Byzantium, Ottoman)
    10. England (892.500) - (Roman Empire, British Empire)
    11. Bulgaria (545.440) - (Ancient Greece*, Thrace, Roman Empire, Byzantium, Ottoman Empire)
    12. Portugal (512.119) - (Ancient Greece*, Phoenician, Roman Empire)
    13. Netherlands (501.919) - (Germania, Roman Empire, Frankish Empire, Holy Roman Empire)
    14. Austria (493.185) - (Roman Empire, Frankish Empire, Holy Roman Empire, Austria- Hungarian Empire)
    15. Poland (480.192) - (Sarmatia, Polish Kingdom, Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, Vlach & German Settlers)
    16. Hungary (348.546) - (Roman Empire, Kingdom of Hungary, Austria- Hungarian Empire)
    17. Czech Republic (305.319) - (Roman Empire, Holy Roman Empire)
    18. Albania (292.779) - (Ancient Greece*, Illyria, Roman Empire, Byzantium, Ottoman Empire)
    19. Switserland (240.000) - (Roman Empire, Frankish Empire, Holy Roman Empire)
    20. Serbia (236.490) - (Ancient Greece*, Roman Empire, Austria- Hungarian Empire, Ottoman Empire)
    21. Cyprus (203.378) - (Ancient Greece*, Roman Empire, Byzantium, Ottoman Empire)
    22. Sweden (143.101) - (Germanic, Nordic, Viking, Kingdom of Sweden, Swedish Empire)
    23. Macedonia (FYROM) (124.942) - (Ancient Greece*, Macedon, Roman Empire, Byzantium, Ottoman Empire)
    24. Bosnia-Herzegovina (116.379) - (Illyria, Roman Empire, Byzantium, Ottoman Empire)
    25. Slovakia (108.906) - (Scytho-Thracian, Celts, Roman Empire, Kingdom of Hungary)

    J2-M172 Y-DNA Countries Of All Regions Population Estimate Top 25 + Civilisations.
    (Top 25 of all countries included in this research & major civilisations/tribes they were part of.)


    1. Turkey/Anatolia (8.966.912) - (Ancient Greece*, Thrace, Roman Empire, Byzantium, Ottoman Empire)
    2. Italy (5.513.513) - (Ancient Greece*, Etruscan, Roman Empire, Byzantium, Holy Roman Empire)
    3. Egypt (4.510.000) - (Ancient Egypt, Greek Ptolemaic Kingdom*, Roman Empire, Ottoman Empire)
    4. Iran (4.508.980) - (Parthian Empire, Greek Seleucid Empire*, Greco-Bactrian Kingdom*, Persian Empire)
    5. Iraq (3.035.099) - (Mesopotamia, Greek Seleucid Empire*, Roman Empire, Persian Empire, Ottoman Empire)
    6. France (2.198.498) - (Ancient Greece*, Roman Empire, Frankish Empire, Holy Roman Empire)
    7. Russia (2.137.766) - (Ancient Greece*, Sarmatia, Scythia, Russian Empire)
    8. Syria (1.915.113) - (Mesopotamia, Phoenician, Greek Seleucid Empire*, Roman Empire, Ottoman Empire)
    9. Germany (1.829.382) - (Germania, Roman Empire, Frankish Empire, Holy Roman Empire)
    10. Ukraine (1.457.757) - (Ancient Greece*, Sarmatia, Scythia)
    11. Romania (1.420.153) - (Ancient Greece*, Thrace, Roman Empire, Ottoman Empire)
    12. Spain (1.417.960) - (Ancient Greece*, Phoenician, Roman Empire, Gothic Kingdom, Moors, Spanish Empire)
    13. Azerbaijan (1.397.663) - (Scythia, Greek Seleucid Empire*, Roman Empire, Persian Empire)
    14. Greece (1.238.300) - (Ancient Greece*, Greek Seleucid Empire*, Roman Empire, Byzantium, Ottoman)
    15. England (892.500) - (Celtic, Roman Empire, British Empire)
    16. Georgia (603.342) - (Ancient Greece*, Roman Empire)
    17. Lebanon (549.120) - (Phoenician, Persian Empire, Greek Seleucid Empire*, Roman Empire, Ottoman)
    18. Bulgaria (545.440) - (Ancient Greece*, Thrace, Roman Empire, Byzantium, Ottoman Empire)
    19. Portugal (512.119) - (Ancient Greece*, Phoenician, Roman Empire)
    20. Netherlands (501.919) - (Germania, Roman Empire, Frankish Empire, Holy Roman Empire)
    21. Austria (493.185) - (Roman Empire, Frankish Empire, Holy Roman Empire)
    22. Morocco (489.666) - (Phoenician, Roman Empire)
    23. Poland (480.192) - (Sarmatia, Polish Kingdom, Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, Vlach & German Settlers)
    24. Jordan (423.038) - (Greek Seleucid Empire*, Roman Empire, Persian Empire, Ottoman Empire)
    25. Armenia (358.842) - (Kingdom of Armenia, Roman Empire, Persian Empire. Ottoman Empire, Russian)

    Taken from: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...Size-Estimates


    "Occurrence of J2-M172 Y-chromosomes in Tuscany has been related to the Etruscan heritage of the region."
    Uniparental Markers of Contemporary Italian Population Reveals Details on Its Pre-Roman Heritage.
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...l.pone.0050794

    "DNA of men whose forebears probably were Etruscans show they weren't local, but migrated, study says. Genetic studies of Italians in Tuscany show that their forefathers, the ancient Etruscans, moved to Italy from what is now Turkey -- an origin that many archeologists have dismissed as unlikely. The Etruscans, who emerged about 1200 BC, reached their zenith in the 6th century BC, dominating Italy and the Mediterranean area until being assimilated into the Roman Republic about 200 BC. They provided many of the cultural underpinnings of Roman society. They were skilled metallurgists and masterful seafarers, but their origin has been a source of dispute for at least 2,500 years."
    LA Times - Genetic tests: Italians were from Turkey
    http://articles.latimes.com/2007/jun...ci-etruscans18

    Hg J2-M172 & Roman Republic.



    Roman Empire: East & West.


  9. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by RHAS View Post


    "DNA of men whose forebears probably were Etruscans show they weren't local, but migrated, study says. Genetic studies of Italians in Tuscany show that their forefathers, the ancient Etruscans, moved to Italy from what is now Turkey -- an origin that many archeologists have dismissed as unlikely. The Etruscans, who emerged about 1200 BC, reached their zenith in the 6th century BC, dominating Italy and the Mediterranean area until being assimilated into the Roman Republic about 200 BC. They provided many of the cultural underpinnings of Roman society. They were skilled metallurgists and masterful seafarers, but their origin has been a source of dispute for at least 2,500 years."
    LA Times - Genetic tests: Italians were from Turkey
    http://articles.latimes.com/2007/jun...ci-etruscans18


    "An earlier tradition that gave Romulus a distant ancestor in the semi-divine Trojan prince Aeneas was further embellished, and Romulus was made the direct ancestor of Rome's first Imperial dynasty. Possible historical bases for the broad mythological narrative remain unclear and disputed. The image of the she-wolf suckling the divinely fathered twins became an iconic representation of the city and its founding legend, making Romulus and Remus preeminent among the feral children of ancient mythography."
    Romulus and Remus.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romulus_and_Remus


    Aeneas Flight from Troy by Federico Barocci.

    "In Greco-Roman mythology, Aeneas (/ɪˈniːəs/; Greek: Αἰνείας, Aineías, possibly derived from Greek αἰνή meaning "praise") was a Trojan hero, the son of the prince Anchises and the goddess Aphrodite. His father was the second cousin of King Priam of Troy, making Aeneas Priam's second cousin, once removed. He is a character in Greek mythology and is mentioned in Homer's Iliad, and receives full treatment in Roman mythology as the legendary founder of what would become Ancient Rome, most extensively in Virgil's Aeneid."
    Aeneas.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneas


    Map Aeneae Troiani Navigatio


    Travels of Aeneas.

    Quote Originally Posted by RHAS View Post
    "The J2f-M67 clade is localized to Northwest Turkey. It is well known that during this period, Northwest Anatolia developed a complex society that engaged in widespread Aegean trade referred to as "Maritime Troia culture," involving both the western Anatolian mainland and several of the large islands in the eastern Aegean, Chios, Lemnos and Lesbos (Korfmann 1996)."
    Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia.
    http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Cinnioglu2004.pdf

    "2.1. The Maritime Troy Culture.The coastline of the North Aegean and the costal regions of the Marmara Sea were determined as the area of distribution of the “Maritime Troy Culture”, which encompasses the first three settlement phases of Troy from c. 2920 to 2200 BC (KORFMANN 2006:4). In more general terms this is the period of the Early Bronze Age (EBA)"
    http://tobias-lib.uni-tuebingen.de/v...ss_Guendem.pdf

    "J2a-M92 is a well-defined J2a-M67 sub-lineage, with a distribution restricted to Asia Minor, the Balkans and the north-eastern Mediterranean coasts. Frequency and variance maps make plausible an origin in north-western Turkey, where the highest variance is registered, and a subsequent migration to the Balkans and then to the Italian Peninsula."
    Ancient Migratory Events in the Middle East: New Clues from the Y-Chromosome Variation of Modern Iranians.
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...e-0041252-g002

    Last edited by RHAS; 04-04-14 at 04:20.

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    Haplogroup J and Romans.

    "Y-DNA haplogroep. Vaak voorkomende haplogroepen in West-Europa. J. Typerend voor Zuid-Oost-Europa, meer bepaald Centraal en Zuid-Italië, Griekenland en Romenië. Ook teruggevonden in Frankrijk, Turkije en het Midden-Oosten. Kan in verband worden gebracht met de oude Grieken, de Romeinen en de Pheniciërs."
    Gent University, Heemkring Ansfried - Genetica als hulpwetenschap bij het historisch onderzoek naar de oorsprong van de Kempische bevolking. (Dutch)
    http://www.heemkringansfried.be/down...g_mechelen.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by RHAS View Post
    Etruscans (J2) and Rome.

    "A 2004 study by Semino et al. contradicted this study, and showed that Italians in North-central regions (like Tuscany and Emilia-Romagna) had a higher concentration of J2 than their Southern counterparts. North-central had 26.9% J2, whereas Calabria (a far Southern region) had 20.0%, Sardinia had 9.7% and Sicily had 16.7%. This could be because of the ancient Etruscans, who some think originated in the Near East."
    Wikipedia.org - Genetic History of Italy.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Italy

    "J2a`s strong presence in Italy is owed in great part to the migration of the Etruscans from western Anatolia to central and northern Italy, and to the Greek colonisation of southern Italy. Immigration from the eastern Mediterranean to Rome during the Roman Empire, then from Anatolia, Thrace and Greece during the Byzantine period period (particularly in north-eastern Italy) further increased the incidence of j2 in the peninsula."
    Eupedia.com - Haplogroup J2. (2013)
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

    "The presence of J2 haplotypes in central Italy may be related to the debated hypothesis of an Anatolian origin of the Etruscan people, as suggested by mtDNA analysis on modern and ancient samples (Francalacci et al., 1996; Vernesi et al., 2004; Achilli et al., 2007), although it could be arrived in the region much earlier following the Neolithic expansion."
    Phylogeography of Y-chromosome in Europe.
    http://eprints.uniss.it/2783/1/Francalacci_P_Articolo_2008_History.pdf

    "A certain occurrence of J2-M172 Y-chromosomes in Tuscany has been related to the Etruscan heritage of the region (Achilli et al., 2007)."
    Phylogeography of Y-chromosome in Europe.
    http://eprints.uniss.it/2783/1/Francalacci_P_Articolo_2008_History.pdf

    Image: Artist depiction of Etruscans by Milo Manara as featured during Rome’s Museum of Etruscan Civilisation - Museo Nazionale Etrusco di Villa Giulia - unique exhibition of Etruscan themed comic books conceived by the archeaological services of southern Etruria (northern Lazio). The show had the backing of the Lazio region and was realized with the assistance of Civita, a cultural association and Comicon, one of Rome’s biggest comic expos.)

  12. #137
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by RHAS View Post
    Haplogroup J2 and Romans.

    "Nog een aardigheidje voor Oost-Brabant: daar is een relatieve concentratie van haplogroep J gevonden. Volgens genetisch genealogen zijn die mensen waarschijnlijk nazaten van de oude Romeinen, gelegerd in Noviomagus (Nijmegen) of rond Locus Paludosus (De Peel)."
    Eindhovens Dagblad - Veel DNA komt uit Spanje en Scandinavië. (Dutch)
    http://www.ed.nl/regio/4449996/Veel-...candinavie.ece

    Translated: One remarkable fact about this research is the concentration of J(2) found in the province of North Brabant, Genetic Genealogist believe these people are decended from Roman Soldiers stationed in Noviomagus (City of Nijmegen) and Locus Paludosis (De Peel)"




    Noviomagus (Nijmegen).



    "Ulpia Noviomagus Batavorum is de naam van Nijmegen in de laat-Romeinse tijd; het voorvoegsel Ulpia verwijst naar keizer Marcus Ulpius Traianus hetgeen het mogelijk maakt de naam te dateren op 104 n.C. Voorheen stond de plaats bekend onder de naam Oppidum Batavorum. Of Batavodurum (versterkte stad van de Bataven) inderdaad dezelfde nederzetting aanduidt, is niet zeker."
    Ulpia Noviomagus Batavorum (Dutch)
    http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulpia_Noviomagus_Batavorum
    it is amazing nobody remarked the name NOVIOMAGUS ("new market"?) is a celtic name, what could prove the previous settlement or group of settlements was of celtic origin...

  13. #138
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    What is not to say Y-J2 's are of celtic origin!!!

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    This is all very interesting, and even suggestive, (even if some of it is woefully out of date. )

    However, the facts are these:

    1) There is no ancient yDNA of any Roman or any Etruscan.

    2) There is no complete mtDNA sequence for any ancient Roman or Etruscan. All we have are some incomplete HVRI sequences for some Etruscan samples. Trying to draw conclusions from them is highly problematic, especially when comparing them to modern populations.

    3) The scientists who first proposed that the mtDNA samples which they stated proved that the elite, at least, among the Etruscans came from Anatolia have since said that the lineages are so old that it is impossible to tell if they arrived on the peninsula during the Bronze Age or the Neolithic thousands of years before.

    I've posted about this many times on this forum, and provided the documentation for all the above. You just need to search within the site.

    Ed. As per post #140, all we have are some incomplete mtDNA results from Etruscans and from Pompeii.
    Last edited by Angela; 06-04-14 at 19:33.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    2) There is no complete mtDNA sequence for any ancient Roman or Etruscan. All we have are some incomplete HVRI sequences ...
    Not really
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...9.00520.x/full

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Are we reading the same study? I believe you've raised this issue before. I don't see any complete FGS mtDNA results in this paper, which is what I've said is lacking.

    An FGS is what they've been doing with the ancient samples from Central Europe for example. You really can't draw conclusions about mtDNA without it, in my opinion. The time depths are just too huge.

    Ed. Perhaps you meant that we do have some coding region results from Pompeii. I've edited my post to reflect that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RHAS View Post



    "DNA of men whose forebears probably were Etruscans show they weren't local, but migrated, study says. Genetic studies of Italians in Tuscany show that their forefathers, the ancient Etruscans, moved to Italy from what is now Turkey -- an origin that many archeologists have dismissed as unlikely. The Etruscans, who emerged about 1200 BC, reached their zenith in the 6th century BC, dominating Italy and the Mediterranean area until being assimilated into the Roman Republic about 200 BC. They provided many of the cultural underpinnings of Roman society. They were skilled metallurgists and masterful seafarers, but their origin has been a source of dispute for at least 2,500 years."
    LA Times - Genetic tests: Italians were from Turkey
    http://articles.latimes.com/2007/jun...ci-etruscans18



    "An earlier tradition that gave Romulus a distant ancestor in the semi-divine Trojan prince Aeneas was further embellished, and Romulus was made the direct ancestor of Rome's first Imperial dynasty. Possible historical bases for the broad mythological narrative remain unclear and disputed. The image of the she-wolf suckling the divinely fathered twins became an iconic representation of the city and its founding legend, making Romulus and Remus preeminent among the feral children of ancient mythography."
    Romulus and Remus.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romulus_and_Remus


    Aeneas Flight from Troy by Federico Barocci.

    "In Greco-Roman mythology, Aeneas (/ɪˈniːəs/; Greek: Αἰνείας, Aineías, possibly derived from Greek αἰνή meaning "praise") was a Trojan hero, the son of the prince Anchises and the goddess Aphrodite. His father was the second cousin of King Priam of Troy, making Aeneas Priam's second cousin, once removed. He is a character in Greek mythology and is mentioned in Homer's Iliad, and receives full treatment in Roman mythology as the legendary founder of what would become Ancient Rome, most extensively in Virgil's Aeneid."
    Aeneas.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneas


    Map Aeneae Troiani Navigatio


    Travels of Aeneas.

    "J2a-M92 is a well-defined J2a-M67 sub-lineage, with a distribution restricted to Asia Minor, the Balkans and the north-eastern Mediterranean coasts. Frequency and variance maps make plausible an origin in north-western Turkey, where the highest variance is registered, and a subsequent migration to the Balkans and then to the Italian Peninsula."
    Ancient Migratory Events in the Middle East: New Clues from the Y-Chromosome Variation of Modern Iranians.
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...e-0041252-g002

    "Working with linguistic evidence and etymogical "method" Georgiev asserts that the Etruscans were none other then the Trojans, the legendary founders of Rome." (Philip Baldi, The foundations of Latin, Walter de Gruyter, 2002. p. 111)"
    Etruscans - Ancient Mediterranean Türks of Eurasia (proto-Hungarian - proto-Türkic)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKFCs5m19pQ

    "Genetic research made public at the weekend appears to put the matter beyond doubt, however. It shows the Etruscans came from the area which is now Turkey - and that the nearest genetic relatives of many of today's Tuscans and Umbrians are to be found, not in Italy, but around Izmir......The latest findings confirm what was said about the matter almost 2,500 years ago, by the Greek historian Herodotus. The first traces of Etruscan civilisation in Italy date from about 1200 BC.......But the latest conclusions may add weight to a rival, apparently more fanciful, theory that links their name to Troy, the "city of towers" and a part of the Lydian empire. The most likely date for the fall of Troy, as described by Homer, is between 1250 and 1200 BC. The Etruscans' contribution to Roman civilisation is still debated. They provided Rome with some of its early kings, and maybe even its name."
    The Guardian - The enigma of Italy's ancient Etruscans is finally unravelled DNA tests on their Italian descendants show the 'tuscii' came from Turkey.
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/200...aly.johnhooper
    Last edited by RHAS; 23-04-14 at 07:22.

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    "Nice, France: The long-running controversy about the origins of the Etruscan people appears to be very close to being settled once and for all, a geneticist will tell the annual conference of the European Society of Human Genetics today (Sunday June 17). Professor Alberto Piazza, from the University of Turin, Italy, will say that there is overwhelming evidence that the Etruscans, whose brilliant civilisation flourished 3000 years ago in what is now Tuscany, were settlers from old Anatolia (now in southern Turkey)."
    European Society of Human Genetics - Ancient Etruscans were immigrants from Anatolia (now Turkey) - geneticists find the final piece in the puzzle
    https://secure.medacad.org/eshg.org/13.0.html

    The mystery of Etruscan origins: novel clues from Bos taurus mitochondrial DNA
    http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.o.../1175.abstract



    Subtitled version:
    http://dotsub.com/view/5978f5f8-ba84...f-84d06e261684

    "There is a distinct association of ancient J2 civilisations with bull worship."
    Eupedia.com, 2011.
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml


    Etruscan mural depiction of a Bull, from the Tomb of the Bulls in Tarquinia.

    "Another fresco is situated horizontally between the two doorways, in the center of the wall. It portrays the ambush of Troilus by Achilles, which is described in the Cypria. The event precedes the pursuit and slaying of Troilus by Achilles at the altar of Apollo. .... He identifies the rider as Troilus because he wears a Phrygian cap and has a large knot of hair."
    Wikipedia - Tomb of the Bulls.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomb_of_the_Bulls
    Last edited by RHAS; 15-05-14 at 04:45.

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    Haplogroup J2 Romans. (Aeneas, Trojans, Phoenicians, Carthage, Rome)

    "The results regarding my paternal genetics were identified as belonging to Haplogroup J2 (M172). This genetic marker dates back to roughly 15 000 yrs ago and is found predominately in the Fertile Crescent. Most prevalent in Southern Italy, Turkey, Greece, Lebanon, Cyprus and several other countries around the Mediterranean and Caucasus region, some sources claim that these are the genes of the ancient Phoenicians who may have settled in the Roman Empire long ago."
    Livelearngrow.ca - My Roots.
    http://livelearngrow.ca/category/my-roots/

    "The excess of haplogroup J2, and PC1+ to PS3+ in coastal Tunisia, the site of Carthage, compared to inland Tunisian populations is exceptionally significant, and suggests that the Roman destruction of Carthage did not eliminate the Carthaginian gene pool."
    Anthropology.net - The Y-Chromosomal Footprint Of Phoenicians Throughout The Mediterranean.
    http://anthropology.net/2008/10/30/t...mediterranean/

    "By a.d. 193 Rome had an emperor from North Africa, Septimius Severus, and he spoke with a strong Phoenician accent. That was the revenge of Carthage. The Phoenicians also persisted genetically."
    National Geographic - Who were the Phoenicians?
    http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/fe...nicians-text/5

    "Carthage also became a centre of early Christianity."
    Wikipedia - Carthage.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthage


    Aeneas recounting the Trojan War to Dido, a painting by Pierre-Narcisse Guérin. This scene is taken from Virgil's Aeneid, where Dido falls in love with, only to be left by, the Trojan hero Aeneas.

    "Dido (/ˈdaɪdoʊ/ DY-doh) was, according to ancient Greek and Roman sources, the founder and first Queen of Carthage (in modern-day Tunisia). She is best known from the account given by the Roman poet Virgil in his Aeneid. ...... The person of Dido can be traced to references by Roman historians to lost writings of Timaeus of Tauromenium in Sicily (c. 356–260 BC)."
    Wikipedia.org - Dido (Queen of Carthage)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dido_(Queen_of_Carthage)
    Last edited by RHAS; 17-05-14 at 05:45.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    J2a and Jewish origin is not even a theory but pure speculation.
    "EEJ are Europeans probably of Roman descent who converted to Judaism at times, when Judaism was the first monotheistic religion that spread in the ancient world. Any other theory about their origin is not supported by the genetic data. Future studies will have to address their genetic affinities to various Italian populations and examine the possibility of other components both European and Non-European in their gene pool."
    The origin of Eastern European Jews revealed by autosomal, sex chromosomal and mtDNA polymorphisms.
    http://www.biologydirect.com/content/5/1/57#B10

    "Many people new to Genetic Genealogy think the J2 haplogroup is synonymous with having male Jewish ancestry. One should note that having a J2 haplogroup assignment does not necessarily indicate Jewish ancestry. The J2 haplogroup is far more ancient than the Jewish religion and is found in many lines with Mediterranean region ancient ancestry. Another relatively more recent mode for J2's entry into some parts of Europe from the Mediterranean areas could have been the Roman Legions and Roman settlements."
    Kerchner.com - YDNA Haplogroup Descriptions & Information Links.
    http://www.kerchner.com/haplogroups-ydna.htm
    Last edited by RHAS; 17-05-14 at 06:25.

  21. #146
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    Haplogroup J2, Romans, Britain & Viticulture.

    "The Tree 11 MITCHELMORE belongs to Haplogroup J2 or J-M172. This group migrated westward from the Middle East about 25,000 years ago, travelling along the north and south Mediterranean coastlines. One hypothesis is that this haplogroup was introduced into the British Isles by Roman soldiers; certainly Italy is one of the European countries with the highest frequency of haplogroup J2 today."
    M*CH*MORE one name study - DNA Results
    http://www.mitchelmore.info/join/dna-results.htm

    Quote Originally Posted by RHAS View Post
    Haplogroup J2, Romans & Britain.
    "The findings so far indicate that the imperial Italians of the early first millennium AD did not introduce their British subjects only to legionaries, villas and togas, but to the delights of cheap plonk as well."
    The Independent - Veni Vidi Viticulture.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/sc...uk-738723.html

    Quote Originally Posted by RHAS View Post
    Haplogroup J2, Britain, Romans and Viticulture.



    'In Vino Veritas'
    Last edited by RHAS; 16-05-14 at 07:28.

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    North Mediterranean, J-M172 and Romans.

    "The first axis accounted for 43.71% of the haplogroup frequency variation and clearly separated east European populations from north Mediterranean groups. The second PC encompassed 34.60% of the observed variance and separated most of the north Balkan samples from the rest of European samples. Vector analysis demonstrates that the north Mediterranean cluster is most associated with haplogroups J-M172, E-v13 and R-M269."
    Paleo-Balkan and Slavic Contributions to the Genetic Pool of Moldavians: Insights from the Y Chromosome.
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0053731

    "7.2 North Mediterranean. Overview. From Spain to Greece, the North Mediterranean cluster defines an arc from Gibraltar to Bosphorus. Ancient and robust, this group is dominant in Southern Europe. Its strongest source is from the first farmers to migrate out of Western Eurasia. They absorbed those who were there before, holdovers from the Ice Age. A long history of traveling merchants and seafarers shaped this cluster. The great empires of Rome and Greece carried it away to distant lands. They also brought a second wave of Western Eurasian influence into the cluster. Its modern geography speaks to the history of those who moved, either willingly or in chains, under the Roman Empire. Because of this, the cluster’s signature is strongest in the western part of the Mediterranean. It is particularly strong on the isolated island of Sardinia. It reaches also upwards to the British Islands as well as east into modern Turkey. The politics of empire and of a later Rome may explain why the cluster is part of many Southern European and non-European Jewish Diaspora populations."
    FamilytreeDNA - MyOrigins Methodology.
    https://www.familytreedna.com/learn/...s-methodology/

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    A professional and E-X-C-E-L-L-E-N-T post.
    Thank you!

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    Haplogroup J2 and Romans (Netherlands/United Kingdom).



    Fragment taken from the book 'Zonen van Adam', regarding Hg J2-M172.
    http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zonen_van_Adam
    http://www.barjesteh.nl/omslag.JPG

    NL "Een opvallende, oud cluster is te vinden noord-oostelijk Branbant. Hier stuiten we wellicht op een erfenis van de in en nabij Nijmegen gelegerde Romeinse troepen, waarin veel huurlingen uit het Midden-0osten te vinden waren. Een soortgelijke verklaring wordt gegeven voor een cluster J2 bij de muur van Hadrianus in Groot Brittanie."

    UK "A remarkable old cluster can be found in North east Brabant (Netherlands). Here we see a possible heritage from the Roman soldiers who were stationed in and around Nijmegen (Noviomagus) among which were many mercenaries from the middle east. The same explanation is given for a cluster of J2 near Hadrians wall in Great Britain."


    Last edited by RHAS; 19-05-14 at 11:01.

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    "The likely deep ancestry source of Haplogroup J2 as found along the Anglo-Scottish border is probably to be found with members of the Roman Legions which were stationed along Hadrian's wall."
    Border receivers - DNA Report Nov 2005.
    http://www.borderreivers.co.uk/DNA%2...20Nov%2005.htm

    "Moffat said his colleagues had also discovered DNA originating from Roman-period Illyria, the area occupied by modern Croatia, which may relate to Roman occupation of lowland Scotland."
    The Guardian - Scotland DNA Study Project.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/aug/15/scotland-dna-study-project

    Last edited by RHAS; 20-05-14 at 13:48.

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