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Thread: Haplogroup J2, Romans, Christianity and Viticulture

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    Quote Originally Posted by RHAS View Post
    Haplogroup J2 Romans. (Aeneas, Trojans, Phoenicians, Carthage, Rome)

    "The results regarding my paternal genetics were identified as belonging to Haplogroup J2 (M172). This genetic marker dates back to roughly 15 000 yrs ago and is found predominately in the Fertile Crescent. Most prevalent in Southern Italy, Turkey, Greece, Lebanon, Cyprus and several other countries around the Mediterranean and Caucasus region, some sources claim that these are the genes of the ancient Phoenicians who may have settled in the Roman Empire long ago."
    Livelearngrow.ca - My Roots.
    http://livelearngrow.ca/category/my-roots/

    "The excess of haplogroup J2, and PC1+ to PS3+ in coastal Tunisia, the site of Carthage, compared to inland Tunisian populations is exceptionally significant, and suggests that the Roman destruction of Carthage did not eliminate the Carthaginian gene pool."
    Anthropology.net - The Y-Chromosomal Footprint Of Phoenicians Throughout The Mediterranean.
    http://anthropology.net/2008/10/30/t...mediterranean/

    "By a.d. 193 Rome had an emperor from North Africa, Septimius Severus, and he spoke with a strong Phoenician accent. That was the revenge of Carthage. The Phoenicians also persisted genetically."
    National Geographic - Who were the Phoenicians?
    http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/fe...nicians-text/5

    "Carthage also became a centre of early Christianity."
    Wikipedia - Carthage.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthage


    Aeneas recounting the Trojan War to Dido, a painting by Pierre-Narcisse Guérin. This scene is taken from Virgil's Aeneid, where Dido falls in love with, only to be left by, the Trojan hero Aeneas.

    "Dido (/ˈdaɪdoʊ/ DY-doh) was, according to ancient Greek and Roman sources, the founder and first Queen of Carthage (in modern-day Tunisia). She is best known from the account given by the Roman poet Virgil in his Aeneid. ...... The person of Dido can be traced to references by Roman historians to lost writings of Timaeus of Tauromenium in Sicily (c. 356–260 BC)."
    Wikipedia.org - Dido (Queen of Carthage)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dido_(Queen_of_Carthage)

    The Roman tombstone in Bingerbrück, Germany

    Tib(erius) Iul(ius) Abdes Pantera Sidonia ann(orum) LXII stipen(diorum) XXXX miles exs(ignifer?)coh(orte) I sagittariorumh(ic) s(itus) e(st)

    Tiberius Iulius Abdes Pantera from Sidon, aged 62 years served 40 years, former standard bearer(?) of the first cohort of archers lies here.


    "It was one of the most important Phoenician cities, and may have been the oldest."
    Wikipedia - Sidon.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidon

    "The YDNA Haplogroup of the ancient Phoenicians is J2, also identified as the signature of human migration via the Mediterranean in the Neolithic or New Stone Age around 6,000 BC, from the Levant into Europe."
    Ancientmed.org - The Mediterraneans.
    http://www.ancientmed.org/TheMediterraneans.htm

    "Was im ersten Moment exotisch erscheint, ist auf den zweiten Blick gar nicht so aussergewöhnlich. Rund jeder achte Europäer stammt aus der Linie J2."
    Tages Anzeiger - Für 300 Franken auf den Spuren der eigenen Vorfahren. (German)
    http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/leben/ge...story/28960496

    "J2 Orientalide West. Ihr Verbreitungsgebiet ist der europäische Mittelmeerraum."
    Die Haplogruppen des Y-Adams nach Ländern Europas verteilt. (German)
    http://www.manfred-hiebl.com/Y-Adam-...ung_Europa.pdf

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    Haplogroup J2 and viticulture.

    "Wine making spread to Crete during the Minoan period and then later to Italy with the Etruscans and to Iberia with the Phoenicians. It was an integral component of the economy and social culture of the proto-greek civilizations and the phoenicians who both went on to settle other mediterranean coastal regions. And tracing the spread of Viticulture from its origins to its spread before the Roman period, we can see te highest levels of Haplogroup J2 today correlate with the geographical centres of all these civilizations. While viticulture may not represent the first wave of M172 migrants to Europe, M172 certainly played a strong role in bringing Viticulture to Europe with such civilizations as the Minoans, Greeks and Phoenicians."
    M172 Blog - Correlations in the spread of Viticulture and Haplogroup J2, 2008.
    http://m172.blogspot.nl/2008/10/corr...ticulture.html

    "King et Al noted a strong correlation in precipitation levels and associated levels of J2a (M172+ M410+) within the Middle East, stating:The genetic memory retained in the extant distributions of Y-chromosome haplogroups J1-M267 and J2a-M410 within the FertileCrescent significantly correlates with regional levels of annual precipitation in a reciprocal manner. The statistically significant correlations of Y-chromosome haplogroups, precipitation levels and domestic lifestyle are pronounced. The spatial frequency distribution of haplogroup J2a coincides closely with regions characterised by >400mm of annual precipitation capable of supporting settled agriculture, while haplogroup J1-M267 distributions correlate inversely with semi-arid regions characteristically used by pastoralists. Thus, King et al have established that M410's spread seems to correlate with rainfall. It would then make sense that viticulture would likely mirror this spread since about 400 mm is also the level of annual precipiation required to support the farming of Wine Grapes (General Viticulture, Albert Julius Winkler p 395). And this is what we see; that viticulture mirrors the proposed spread of M172, M410 through the Near east during the bronze age."
    M172 Blog - Correlations in the spread of Viticulture and Haplogroup J2, 2008.
    http://m172.blogspot.nl/2008/10/corr...ticulture.html



    "In the time of the Roman Empire, grapevine varieties assumed such great importance that many of the indigenous varieties were brought to the colonies or later imported."
    VinetoWinecircle - The time of Roman Empire.
    http://www.vinetowinecircle.com/en/h...-roman-empire/

    "Earlier studies have concluded that the J-M410 sub-clades, J-DYS445-6 and J-M67, are linked to the spread of farming in the Mediterranean Basin, with a likely origin in Anatolia."
    Y-chromosomal evidence of the cultural diffusion of agriculture in southeast Europe.
    http://www.unipv.eu/on-line/Home/Are...mento2986.html

    Last edited by RHAS; 23-05-14 at 06:59.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    It really doesn't matter how much fanciful material you post. Until you have old DNA results from Phoenician sites, none of this proves that the Phoenicians were J2. And the Phoenician theory certainly doesn't explain the high levels of J2 in central Italy or the Balkans. I think a Neolithic expansion out of Anatolia explains the J2 distribution better.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    It really doesn't matter how much fanciful material you post. Until you have old DNA results from Phoenician sites, none of this proves that the Phoenicians were J2. And the Phoenician theory certainly doesn't explain the high levels of J2 in central Italy or the Balkans. I think a Neolithic expansion out of Anatolia explains the J2 distribution better.
    Its because I was told he is J2b which is most frequent in the Balkans (Albanians have 10%, Greeks 10%, Ionian Greeks 6%, Sicilian Greeks and Cretans have around 4%) while, J2a on the other hand is most frequent among Cypriots, Greek S/Italians, Armenians, Georgians, Iranians, Lebanese (all have above 20%) .
    Seems he is trying to say that J2a which are from the levant are related to J2b which is from Anatolia and they formed the basis of the Romans prior to Empire building.

    So J2a pushed west from the Caucasus into Levant to form J2a and into Anatolia to form J2b. .........that's basically the idea of the story. Throw in the Roman story that they are trojans etc etc
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    As far as the Neolithic goes, we've got lots of G2a, some (absorbed?) I2a and E-V13. We might find some Neolithic era J2 in the Balkans if those darn results ever come out, but so far yDNA "J2" doesn't look very Neolithic to me.

    Based on the current evidence, I'm inclined to think that J2 is a Metal Ages entrant into Europe and perhaps carried a dose of ANE along with it.

    That doesn't mean it was necessarily Phoenician, however. J2a is also present all through Anatolia and the Greek islands. The clades in Italy have multiple other possible sources, including Crete and the other Greek islands, Greek colonists from Ionia, and possibly some late migration from Anatolia itself.

    In that regard, I'd also just like to state for probably the tenth time, in relation to the posts about the Etruscans upthread that it isn't helpful to post very old studies. Some of the authors of the original papers postulating a Bronze Age Etruscan origin in Anatolia based on mtDNA have since published papers saying that the mtDNA is so old it could just as well have arrived in central Italy during the Neolithic. We aren't going to know until those bones are subjected to in depth high resolution testing.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    As far as the Neolithic goes, we've got lots of G2a, some (absorbed?) I2a and E-V13. We might find some Neolithic era J2 in the Balkans if those darn results ever come out, but so far yDNA "J2" doesn't look very Neolithic to me.

    Based on the current evidence, I'm inclined to think that J2 is a Metal Ages entrant into Europe and perhaps carried a dose of ANE along with it.

    That doesn't mean it was necessarily Phoenician, however. J2a is also present all through Anatolia and the Greek islands. The clades in Italy have multiple other possible sources, including Crete and the other Greek islands, Greek colonists from Ionia, and possibly some late migration from Anatolia itself.

    In that regard, I'd also just like to state for probably the tenth time, in relation to the posts about the Etruscans upthread that it isn't helpful to post very old studies. Some of the authors of the original papers postulating a Bronze Age Etruscan origin in Anatolia based on mtDNA have since published papers saying that the mtDNA is so old it could just as well have arrived in central Italy during the Neolithic. We aren't going to know until those bones are subjected to in depth high resolution testing.
    Okay, valid point, there isn't the evidence so far to support the idea of J2 being Neolithic, and only a lack of data allows me to make that assumption at this point. But what are the alternatives, given the wide distribution of J2 and the places where it's most common? By "Metal Ages", do you mean Copper Age, Bronze Age or Iron Age? That covers a huge time span, so could you be more specific? If you mean Copper Age, are you associating J2 with Bell Beaker? If you mean Bronze Age, are you associating J2 with the Indo-European invasions?

    As far as J2 not being present in Italy or the Balkans during the Neolithic, lack of data is not proof of anything. I said Neolithic (and should have specifically said late Neolithic) because none of the alternatives seem to fit, IMO. The only thing I feel confident in saying is that I don't think the distribution of J2 matches the Phoenicians very well.

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    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    Okay, valid point, there isn't the evidence so far to support the idea of J2 being Neolithic, and only a lack of data allows me to make that assumption at this point. But what are the alternatives, given the wide distribution of J2 and the places where it's most common? By "Metal Ages", do you mean Copper Age, Bronze Age or Iron Age? That covers a huge time span, so could you be more specific? If you mean Copper Age, are you associating J2 with Bell Beaker? If you mean Bronze Age, are you associating J2 with the Indo-European invasions?

    As far as J2 not being present in Italy or the Balkans during the Neolithic, lack of data is not proof of anything. I said Neolithic (and should have specifically said late Neolithic) because none of the alternatives seem to fit, IMO. The only thing I feel confident in saying is that I don't think the distribution of J2 matches the Phoenicians very well.
    I totally agree that the distribution of J2 requires a lot more than the Phoenicians to explain it.

    In terms of J2 and the Neolithic, it's not just that we don't have any evidence yet of J2 in a Neolithic context; it's that if it were early or even mid-Neolithic I would expect to see more of it in Central Europe. However, as you often note yourself, modern distributions have been proven to be poor indicators of ancient presence time and time again, so we could find localized J2 in Neolithic contexts in Anatolia or Greece or southern Italy tomorrow and it wouldn't be a great surprise to me.

    Even were that to happen, however, I think J2 frequency today is probably the result of numerous different layers of migration from the direction of the southeast, many of which took place during the Metal Ages. I think one obvious source is the Iron Age colonization of southern Italy and Sicily by the Greeks. Many of the founders of these colonies were from Ionian city states on the western coast of Anatolia, or from the islands.

    There was also influence from this direction, which could have entailed actual gene flow, earlier in the Bronze Age.
    See, Philip Baldi, The Foundations of Latin, for an English language source.
    http://books.google.com/books?id=afs...ulture&f=false

    I'll try to find some relatively short Italian articles that can be google translated for the same proposition.

    I also think it looks like there was a definite movement of J2b directly across the Adriatic from the Balkans into Italy. The question is when. Since it doesn't seem to have been accompanied by I2a, that has implications for the timing of the move into Italy and also for analyses of I2a in the Balkans.

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    I thought about the possibility of Greece being the source of the J2 in Italy, and was put off that idea by the fact that modern central Italy has approximately as much J2 as Sicily and more than southern Italy and Greece itself. Of course, there are all sorts of ways to explain that away, given the various population shifts that happened in those areas over the centuries, so I still can't rule it out. And Greece doesn't have nearly as much I2 as other Balkan countries, which would be an argument in favour of I2 being a Slavic import, even though I've been assuming that I2 was probably ancient in the Balkans.

    On the other hand, if we use current DNA results to tell us something about the past (which I'll admit I've argued against), the massive quantity of J2 in central Italy might suggest that the non-Latin population of central Italy was strongly J2. The involvement of such populations in the armies of imperial Rome could explain why J2 is found at low levels everywhere in Europe that the legionnaires went. Of course, that argument also works if the source of J2 in central Italy was Greek colonization, but I'm not sure the levels of J2 would be that high if the source was the colonization of Magna Grecia. And of course if I2 did arrive in the Balkans later than I've been assuming, the J2 could have migrated from somewhere in the Balkans other than Greece. In which case, we're back to considering the possibility of late Neolithic migration of J2 into Italy, IMO.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    In terms of J2 and the Neolithic, it's not just that we don't have any evidence yet of J2 in a Neolithic context; it's that if it were early or even mid-Neolithic I would expect to see more of it in Central Europe. However, as you often note yourself, modern distributions have been proven to be poor indicators of ancient presence time and time again, so we could find localized J2 in Neolithic contexts in Anatolia or Greece or southern Italy tomorrow and it wouldn't be a great surprise to me.
    Yea, nothing from Neolithic Central Europe survived very well the arrival of R1a/R1b. But what if J2 was a branch of Bronze-Age Indo-Europeans? We still don't know what haplogroup brought Latin to Italy...

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    Yea, nothing from Neolithic Central Europe survived very well the arrival of R1a/R1b. But what if J2 was a branch of Bronze-Age Indo-Europeans? We still don't know what haplogroup brought Latin to Italy...
    I'll admit that we can't rule out that possibility until we get the old Y DNA results we need from various sources. I'm inclined to think that J2 is too common in some parts of Italy to have arrived there that late, but the same argument would obviously apply to R1b and most people on this forum seem to think that R1b was in fact brought to western Europe by Bronze Age invaders. Maybe J2 was as well. That isn't what I think, but I can't say I can disprove the idea.

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    In some other thread I was musing about J2 standing behind copper age of Varna and Cucuteni cultures. Chalcolithic started very early in Balkans.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    In some other thread I was musing about J2 standing behind copper age of Varna and Cucuteni cultures. Chalcolithic started very early in Balkans.
    Okay, but how did it get to Italy in such quantities? I think you mentioned in another thread that the distribution of J2 at low levels in other parts of western Europe seemed similar to the limits of the Roman Empire and that seems plausible, but are you saying that the reason J2 is so high in Italy is because it was brought to Italy by Copper Age people from the Balkans?

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Just looking at Maciamo's map, the argument could be made for both a Neolithic or a Metal Ages spread, which makes sense because the Bronze and Iron Age migrations from Greece and/or Anatolia come from the same part of the world which was the source of the Neolithic.



    As for frequency within Italy, the Boattini data is better sourced in that it is surname based, which is very important in a country that has experienced massive amounts of internal migrations relatively recently, but on the other hand the sample numbers are very small, so I'm not sure of the accuracy of a 22% or so frequency in Umbria and the Marche, which would bring those east of the Apennines, more Adriatic leaning provinces close to or even surpassing some of the levels in southern Italy and parts of Sicily.

    My personal feeling is that some of it may indeed have a late Neolithic source from the Balkans, or at least that wouldn't surprise me, but I would find it extraordinary if all of the Bronze Age and Iron Age movements from Crete, the other islands and Greece proper into the mainland and Sicily did not impact those levels significantly, and that doesn't even take into account any possible movement involved in the formation of the Etruscan culture in the Bronze Age by migrants from Anatolia or the eastern Aegean directly into Tuscany, should that ever be proven. (Although interestingly enough, Tuscany itself, based on the Boattini data as well as the composite data put together by Maciamo, is rather low.) Then there are Byzantine era influences to be considered.

    I think, as Maciamo pointed out, that it's interesting that the Apennine area in central and southern Italy is a yDNA "G" heavy, but a yDNA "J" light area. Perhaps the mountains served as a refugia for Neolithic peoples, with later emigrants having more impact on coastal areas? I think that heavy coastal pattern for "J" is also apparent in areas like Liguria and the northeast, where "J2" in some frequency maps seems to peter out as you go inland. (Then again, in the north, the entrance of R1b may have changed the proportions of the yDNA haplogroups.)

    Ancient DNA will be the most probative, obviously, but if modern distributions are going to be used, you need very high resolution scans as well as much larger samples.

    FWIW, the Boattini papers do give more resolution than we usually have, so we can see different clades of J2, which might very well have formed parts of different migration movements. I think it's a mistake to think J2 is any more monolithic than some of the "R" clades. One thing that I did learn from those papers is that there is very little "Semitic" J1 in Italy. Most of the J1 that is present is of the northern near East, presumably older, Neolithic variety. Maybe some of the J2 will fall into that category as well. However, as I said, I think much of it will also be of the Cretan, generally Greek islander and Ionian Greek variety, as an example.
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...light=Boattini

    The latest Boattini paper on southern Italian markers also provides TMRCA dates for J2 of between 1700 and 1250 B.C., which is, of course, Bronze Age. I'm a bit of a skeptic myself about this kind of dating, so I certainly don't find it definitive, and in addition, that doesn't mean that's when it came, but it's an indication, I think, that these markers don't have a really ancient presence in Italy.
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...southern+Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    Okay, but how did it get to Italy in such quantities? I think you mentioned in another thread that the distribution of J2 at low levels in other parts of western Europe seemed similar to the limits of the Roman Empire and that seems plausible, but are you saying that the reason J2 is so high in Italy is because it was brought to Italy by Copper Age people from the Balkans?
    Looking at this wide distribution of J2 and in substantial number, and practically all over Europe, it makes it entrance not later than IE bronze age. It doesn't correlate with R1a or R1b IEs and later big population movements from South to North are not known. From Bronze Age on all migrations went from West to East and from North to South. It looks like J2 distribution went from South to North, or rather from South East. This is the way of Neolithic Farmers, or Copper Expansion.
    Now, assuming that copper age started in Balkans in Farmers communities, it means that J2 had to show up earlier, perhaps on a wave of one of farming improvements. Unless Chalcolithic started in Near East and was brought to Balkans with J2.

    There are possibilities however that big disasters, like 3,000 BC population collapse in Balkans or Bronze Age collapse creates demographic void and opportunity for tribes from far away for a quick and deep entrance. Sort of like Slavic expansion.

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    Haplogroup J2 and Christianity (and Mithraism, Zoroastianism, hebrew).

    Quote Originally Posted by RHAS View Post
    Correlations between Haplogroup J2 M172, the Roman Empire, Christianity and Viticulture.

    Haplogroup J2 - Spread of Christianity.

    Diffusion of religions;


    Source (MIT): http://web.mit.edu/course/21/21h.580...tlas/p26_1.jpg


    (Left: The geographic space over which Classical Greek and Latin served as a lingua franca in antiquity. Right: Y-DNA Haplogroup Frequency map of J2-M172.)
    Source of Language Map (Harvard University): http://chs.harvard.edu/wa/pageR?tn=A...bdc=12&mn=4827


    Greco-Roman Spheres of Influence: Source Griffith University.
    Last edited by RHAS; 07-09-14 at 20:50.

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    Haplogroup J2 and the Roman Empire.

    "Yeah, it`s just that J2 isn`t really found in the modern Irish population," says Adam. "it is found in very small percentages in England, mostly areas that used to have a large Roman presence during the Roman conquest of Britain."
    Silver Alert - A Florida Story.
    http://books.google.nl/books?id=-qLxAwAAQBAJ

    "Roman Empire (150 BC – 400 CE): very likely this era imported most of the modern European J2a, especially to Northwestern Europe. Probably also J2b expanded out of the Balkan to Western Europe mainly in this period. The migration was probably driven by commerce, trade, military movements and (re)settling of free land."
    J2-M172 Haplogroup Research - Cultural History
    http://j2-m172.info/links/cultural-history/

    "J2 has been well-studied and can be split into several subgroups, although the modes of individual distribution for those subgroups are not well understood. Many influences, such as Greek and Roman societies, would have played a part."
    Gerardi/Gelardi Family History.
    http://gelardifamily.net/gerardigelardi_dna

    Quote Originally Posted by RHAS View Post
    Hg J2-M172 & Roman Republic.

    "Il DNA greco/etrusco. L'aplogruppo J2, presente in tutta Europa, è di chiara origine neolitica e mediorientale. Fenici, Etruschi, Grecie da ultimo Romani (e, a nostro parere, anche i Bizantini), contribuirono a diffonderlo in Europa, fermo restando il fondo derivante dall'invasione neolitica. I confini della maggior diffusione di J2 presentano una notevole somiglianza con quelli dell'Impero romano, in accordo con quanto detto in precedenza. Tuttavia, per quanto riguarda la Padania, la sua presenza è piuttosto messa inrelazione con l'influenza etrusca. Un esame della distribuzione di J2 mostra come tale aplogruppo, in Padania, abbia una consistenza relativamente alta solo in una ristretta fascia attorno alla costa adriatica. Nel resto della Padania le percentuali sono paragonabili a quelle dell'area centro europea (ad est) ed iberica (ad ovest). Il pensiero, a nostro parere, non può non andare alle colonie greco-etrusche di Adria eSpina ed anche all'influenza bizantina a Venezia. Ricordiamo che già gli studi di Cavalli Sforza avevano messo in luce una (minoritaria) influenza greca nelle zone considerate. Ci sembra quindi che J2, in Padania, derivi principalmente dal fondo neolitico e, sulla costa adriatica, dal ben noto contributo greco ed etrusco (e bizantino)."
    DNA barbarico (e non) in Padania.
    http://www.academia.edu/7391890/DNA_...non_in_Padania

    "J2: essenzialmente è un aplogruppo originario della Mesopotamia. E’ l’aplogruppo principale delle società che hanno dominato il Mediterraneo. Esso si divide a sua volta in due ramificazioni principali J2A e J2B. La prima ramificazione si è diffusa nel mediterraneo grazie all’espansione dei Greci, dei Romani, dei Fenici, degli Ebrei e degli Etruschi. Ed è quello presente anche come aplogruppo maggioritario in regioni come l’Inguscezia e la Cecenia. L’aplogruppo J2B è meno diffuso, ed è comune nei balcani, soprattutto tra l’Albania, la Macedonia e nel nord dell’India. Quindi probabilmente, l’aplogruppo J2B può al pari di alcune ramificazioni dell’aplogruppo G, far parte delle tribù indoeuropee ariane che invasero l’India. Alcuni ipotesi dicono come questo aplogruppo sia quello degli antichi macedoni di Alessandro Magno, dato che si ritrova nel percorso di conquista nella truppe macedoni."
    Hescaton.com - L’Europa genetica.
    http://www.hescaton.com/wordpress/leuropa-genetica/
    Last edited by RHAS; 02-09-14 at 19:56.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Okay, but when and how did so much J2 end up in Europe? It hasn't been found in Neolithic sites, and yet the levels of J2 in Italy and it's distribution pattern suggests that it must have been present in Europe since at least the Bronze Age, if not before. Why is there so much J2 in northern Italy? Except for an ambiguous finding among the Corded Ware folk which was probably actually I rather than J, no J has been found in early Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    Okay, but when and how did so much J2 end up in Europe? It hasn't been found in Neolithic sites, and yet the levels of J2 in Italy and it's distribution pattern suggests that it must have been present in Europe since at least the Bronze Age, if not before. Why is there so much J2 in northern Italy? Except for an ambiguous finding among the Corded Ware folk which was probably actually I rather than J, no J has been found in early Europe.

    Ed. Most of the attachments are not working, so I have substituted direct links.

    I haven't changed my mind since my post above. :) I still think J2 in Italy is at the earliest very late Neolithic, but most probably Bronze Age and later and mediated through the Balkans and Greece, including the Greek Islands.

    If the Etruscan elite were from the eastern Aegean, that would have made an impact in Toscana/northern Lazio, and through the Etruscans into central northern Italy, while the coastal regions of Liguria/Venezia would have been impacted by Greek and Etruscan traders in the west, and Greek traders and Balkanites in the east. Liguria and Venezia(and south along the coast) were also the northern Italian regions that held out the longest against the Barbarian tribes and were part of the lingering presence of Byzantium. (This is the briefest of sketches about the history, but I don't want to drone on about the history for those members who might be interested.)

    I'm sure this is old news to you, and some of our Greek members may know of more accurate representations, but these can give a general idea, I think.
    Greece and its colonies in 550 B.C.
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...eGriechen1.jpg

    This groups the Greek settlements of southern Italy by area of origin in the original Greek lands:

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...alects.svg.png
    The orange areas are Doric, the brown NW Greek, the grey is Achaean, and the purple is Ionian.

    These are the corresponding areas in the homeland:
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ard%29.svg.png

    This shows the various colonizations of the late Metal Ages, all of them probably bearing some J2:
    It's an excellent map, imo, but too large to load directly. However, you just need to click on the link.
    (Could an administrator load it?)
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...t_colonies.PNG

    The Etruscan League:
    http://www.roebuckclasses.com/102/ma...scancities.jpg

    Then you can add in some slaves from Greece (highly prized as they were very civilized) and from Asia Minor, some of whom must have left their genetic trace, although one must always deal with the IBD analysis of Ralph and Coop that anything after about 400 B.C. had a minimum impact, at least in most of Italy. (See Ralph and Coop et al)

    The Byzantine empire in Italy at its height under Justinian:
    http://blossomingbyzantine.yolasite....ine-empire.gif


    Italy after the Lombard invasions. The Lombards first entered Italy in 568AD.
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._Italy.svg.png

    It lasted much longer in a sliver near Venice and in the south, coming to an end in the south only with the Muslim invasions.

    Byzantine territorial losses:
    Attachment 6590
    Last edited by Angela; 31-08-14 at 17:40.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    Okay, but when and how did so much J2 end up in Europe? It hasn't been found in Neolithic sites, and yet the levels of J2 in Italy and it's distribution pattern suggests that it must have been present in Europe since at least the Bronze Age, if not before. Why is there so much J2 in northern Italy? Except for an ambiguous finding among the Corded Ware folk which was probably actually I rather than J, no J has been found in early Europe.
    I agree, J2 is present in north-italy and alpine areas from ancient times. We see this from studies and Ftdna ALPGEN project

    His language map is also wrong , it has no greek in southern Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I haven't changed my mind since my post above. :) I still think J2 in Italy is at the earliest very late Neolithic, but most probably Bronze Age and later and mediated through the Balkans and Greece, including the Greek Islands.

    .......
    I guess that's the only explanation that makes sense to me. Although J2 in Greece as a whole is only 19%, I notice that it's 34% in Crete, which probably has a population that's closer to the DNA profile of pre migration period Greece than modern mainland Greece is. So, if Greece used to be higher in J2, all that colonization of the Italian peninsula for centuries would have resulted in a lot of J2 in Italy, and particularly in the most Greek colonized parts of Italy. But, as you suggested, the muslim invasions of southern Italy would have somewhat decreased the J2 in some of those areas of southern Italy that were previously heavily colonized by Greeks, reducing the J2 level in those areas as compared to other heavily Greek colonized parts of Italy. I guess it all fits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    I guess that's the only explanation that makes sense to me. Although J2 in Greece as a whole is only 19%, I notice that it's 34% in Crete, which probably has a population that's closer to the DNA profile of pre migration period Greece than modern mainland Greece is. So, if Greece used to be higher in J2, all that colonization of the Italian peninsula for centuries would have resulted in a lot of J2 in Italy, and particularly in the most Greek colonized parts of Italy. But, as you suggested, the muslim invasions of southern Italy would have somewhat decreased the J2 in some of those areas of southern Italy that were previously heavily colonized by Greeks, reducing the J2 level in those areas as compared to other heavily Greek colonized parts of Italy. I guess it all fits.
    Hey, don't forget that at least legally, Crete is part of Greece (correct me if I'm wrong). Also, I wouldn't be surprised if mainland Greeks were influenced by populations that Greek islanders weren't influenced by (such as the Mycenaeans or the Slavic migration). However, according to Anthropol Anz. 2014 the craniofacial morphology in modern and ancient Greeks indicates elements of ethnic group continuation within the unavoidable multicultural mixtures.
    Link:
    http://dienekes.blogspot.co.il/2014/...of-greeks.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    Hey, don't forget that at least legally, Crete is part of Greece (correct me if I'm wrong). Also, I wouldn't be surprised if mainland Greeks were influenced by populations that Greek islanders weren't influenced by (such as the Mycenaeans or the Slavic migration). However, according to Anthropol Anz. 2014 the craniofacial morphology in modern and ancient Greeks indicates elements of ethnic group continuation within the unavoidable multicultural mixtures.
    Link:
    http://dienekes.blogspot.co.il/2014/...of-greeks.html

    The history of Crete and the Greek mainland are inextricably intertwined. I don't think it's much of an exaggeration to say that there would have been no Mycenaean civilization without the influence of Crete, for one thing. Specifically to your point, however, the Mycenaeans around the middle of the 15th century BC conquered Crete, marking the end of Minoan thalassocracy.

    I am personally quite sceptical about a lot of this internet chatter trying to draw hard and fast distinctions between different parts of Greece based on an extremely small number of samples, particularly when some of those samples seem to be drawn from perhaps not terribly representative areas of Greece. A study gathering uniparental and more importantly autosomal data from all areas of Greece, and controlled so that each person tested has all four grandparents from that specific geographic area has yet to be done, to my knowledge.

    Until then, all these comments about how different islanders (and which islanders?) are from "mainland" Greeks is rather premature in my opinion. Not to mention that it's important to know what areas of the "mainland" are being discussed. Are the areas in the far north different from the Peleponessus? What about the areas in the north heavily colonized by returning Anatolian and Pontic Greeks? Greeks from Athens, given that they are drawn from all parts of Greece would have to be heavily screened for regional background it seems to me. (That's why Italian samples are never drawn from Rome or Milano, for example.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    I guess that's the only explanation that makes sense to me. Although J2 in Greece as a whole is only 19%, I notice that it's 34% in Crete, which probably has a population that's closer to the DNA profile of pre migration period Greece than modern mainland Greece is. So, if Greece used to be higher in J2, all that colonization of the Italian peninsula for centuries would have resulted in a lot of J2 in Italy, and particularly in the most Greek colonized parts of Italy. But, as you suggested, the muslim invasions of southern Italy would have somewhat decreased the J2 in some of those areas of southern Italy that were previously heavily colonized by Greeks, reducing the J2 level in those areas as compared to other heavily Greek colonized parts of Italy. I guess it all fits.
    I think I was more cogent in post #163. :)

    As I said there, it wouldn't at all surprise me if a Neolithic European sample turns up that bears a J2 lineage. However, as more and more time passes without one turning up, (as also indicated by the rather cryptic notes that have turned up about upcoming papers about Varna and other parts of the Balkans) I do think it looks like, for whatever reason, it is probably at the earliest Copper Age, and probably Bronze Age and later. Or, more likely, different clades arrived at different times. (All the interest has been in the "R" lineages, so we have very little data about specific J2 lineages.)

    The vector for Italy has to be, in my opinion, the Balkans and Greece. As for the fact that in the Boattini study some of the central Italian areas, notably Umbria, have levels even a bit higher than some areas in the south, I think that may in part be a function of the fact that good as it is, the authors used very small samples. It's also helpful to look at the Eupedia map, which has the benefit of drawing on many studies.

    Attachment 6591

    You can see that the percentages in some areas of the south are very similar to those of Crete, while others are similar to those of the Peleponessus. (In this regard, if I said somewhere that I think that the Moorish invasions left even enough y lineages to significantly change the distribution pattern in the south, then I was wrong, or at least not sufficiently precise. To the best of my recollection the specifically Berber lineages and the "Semitic" J1 lineages combined account for at most 4-6% of the total, even in Sicily, depending on the area.)

    I've given some thought to that unusual amount of J2 on the Adriatic side of Italy even into the center, and I think the explanation lies in gene flow not only directly from Greece, but also from the coastal Balkans. The fact that it has been so diminished in Slovenia and Croatia, for example, may be due to the Slavic migrations, (R1a and probably I2a) which are obscuring the pattern of the flow. A similar thing is happening in northwestern Italy, where that mass of U152 is like a wedge changing prior patterns. (Of course, this is all rather imperfectly correlated with autosomal dna.)

    The following is sheer speculation. However, I think it is interesting to consider these y lineages in terms of their correlation with the EEF/ANE/WHG formulation of Lazaridis et al based upon ancient genomes. If I had to guess, I would say that the J2 bearing people might have been a combination of EEF and ANE, and that what ANE exists in southern and central Italy is in part a result of those migrations. For one thing, J2 seems to have a Kurdish or Iranian or at least eastern Anatolian origin, and they are an ANE bearing people.

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    from an old search in a mountain clan in Greece seems I1 as palaiolithic, sardenian like etc etc.
    .
    G2a3a seems to be neolithic with J2, yet in Greece we do not have neolithic but epipalaiolithic.



    could the difference among Neolithic and epipalaiolithic means something?

    could Varna be a I1 culture?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    from an old search in a mountain clan in Greece seems I1 as palaiolithic, sardenian like etc etc.
    .
    G2a3a seems to be neolithic with J2, yet in Greece we do not have neolithic but epipalaiolithic.



    could the difference among Neolithic and epipalaiolithic means something?



    could Varna be a I1 culture?
    I think perhaps you mean I2?

    At any rate, somewhere on our site texts were published from someone in the audience during a presentation on ancient dna recovered from Varna and surrounding cultures, and it seems it was once again G2a. I apologize, but I don't remember the precise thread. Perhaps someone else can provide a link.

    Of course, it's best if we wait for the actual paper.

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