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Thread: Haplogroup J2, Romans, Christianity and Viticulture

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    Haplogroup J2, Romans, Christianity and Viticulture

    Correlations between Haplogroup J2 M172, the Roman Empire, Christianity and Viticulture.

    Haplogroup J2 - Roman Empire.



    Haplogroup J2 - Spread of Christianity.



    Haplogroup J2 - Viticulture.



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    Last edited by RHAS; 30-08-13 at 22:46.

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    Haplogroup J2 & Romans.

    "It is important to note that at least four additional YDNA markers may have arrived with the Romans. What have been described as the Balkan group (E-V13), the Ancient Caucasians (G-S314), the Herdsman-Farmers (J-M172 – and a sub-group of this, M67, looks particularly Italian) and the Anatolian marker (R1b-M269*), when taken together, potentially add another 2.3 million Englishmen and Welshmen who could trace their fatherlines to the veterans of the II Augusta, the IX Hispana, the XIV Gemina, the XX Valeria Victrix and the other Italians who crossed to Britain in their wake."
    BritainsDNA Press Releases - BritainsDNA finds the Lost Legions.
    http://www.britainsdna.com/about/press-releases

    ------------------------

    "Moffat said his colleagues had also discovered DNA originating from Roman-period Illyria, the area occupied by modern Croatia, which may relate to Roman occupation of lowland Scotland."
    Guardian - Scotland DNA Study Project.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/au...-study-project

    -------------------------

    "In this study, we have detected a number of lineages that are prominent in the Balkans (I2*, I2b*, J2b1 and J2b2) at low levels throughout Ararat Valley, Gardman and Lake Van, the latter of which also contains haplogroups commonly associated with Bronze Age Greece (ie, J2a8-M319 (4.9%), and E1b1b1-M78 and its sublineages (3.9%)). While this may suggest genetic input from early Greek or Phrygian tribes, it is also possible that these low levels of Balkan lineages arrived in Armenia at a later time, such as during one of the many incursions into the area during the reign of the Macedonian, Roman and Byzantine empires."
    Neolithic patrilineal signals indicate that the Armenian plateau was repopulated by agriculturalists.
    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2011192a.html

    ------------------------

    "One fourth of the Vlach people (isolated communities of Romance language speaking peoples in the Balkans) belong to J2, which, combined to the fact that they speak a language descended from latin, suggests that they could have had a greater part of Roman (italian) ancestry than other ethnic groups in the Balkans."
    Eupedia.com, 2013.
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

    ------------------------

    "The J2 haplogroup can be found in today’s populations with notable frequency in Italy, Iberia, Turkey, Albania, Greece and even India, and most likely interacted with numerous cultures, including the Greeks and Romans."
    Ancestry.com - Paternal Ancestry Certificate.
    http://www.ancestry.com/

    ------------------------

    "Haplogroups in Wallonia show the expected admixture of Gallo-Roman (R1b-S28, J2, G2a, E1b1b) and Germanic (R1b-S21,I1,I2b) haplogroups."
    Eupedia.com - Ancient Ancestry Project, Benelux & France.
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/benelu..._project.shtml

    ------------------------

    "With respect to the Romans and the Visigoths, Romans appear not differ much genetically from the Iberians, particularly in relation to the Y chromosome, such that the gene frequencies of the population would not have changed much due to these invaders."
    Searching the Peopling of the Iberian Peninsulafrom the Perspective of Two Andalusian Subpopulations: A Study Based on Y-chromosome Haplogroups J and E.
    http://academia.edu/3067504/Searchin...Subpopulations

    ------------------------

    "Research conducted by the administrators of the Border Reivers DNA Project has identified numerous haplotypes in persons of British descent that show Haplotype 35 markers. Moreover, most of these haplotypes appear to originate from areas of Britain near the Antonine Wall, Hadrian's Wall and other places of Roman fortification or settlement. These areas include Galloway, Dumfries, Ayrshire and The Borders in Scotland, and Cumbria, Yorkshire, Lancashire, Shropshire and Staffordshire in England. Many of the Roman troops stationed in these areas came from Southeastern Europe or Western Asia. They included Sarmatians, Dacians, Goths, Syrians, Mesopotamians, Thracians and Anatolians. The Capelli study has shown that these areas also exhibit higher than average frequencies of haplogroups E3b and J2, neither of which is native to Britain. E3b is found most commonly in North Africa, Iberia, the Mediterranean and the Near East, and J2 occurs most frequently in the Near East, the Mediterranean and Western Asia. The fact that all three groups - E3b, J2 and Haplotype 35 - have a similar origin in territories of the Roman Empire, and occur at comparable frequencies in parts of Britain with a known history of Roman settlement, suggests that they arrived in Britain through the same means."
    Elliot (And border receivers) DNA Project (Haplogroup J2) - Haplogroup R1b (Haplotype 35).
    http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....5_analysis.htm

    ------------------------------

    "The members of this haplotype are found in high numbers in Anatolia and Armenia, with smaller numbers throughout Central Asia, the Middle East, the Balkans, the Caucus Mountains, and in Jewish populations. They are also present in Britain in areas that were found to have a high concentration of Haplogroup J, suggesting they arrived together, perhaps through Roman soldiers."
    Wikipedia.org - Haplotype 35.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplotype_35

    ------------------------------

    "We could even go so far as to suggest he probably was a member of the J Haplogroup carrying the J2 (M172 subgroup) y-chromosome."
    Roman Times - Roman Archaeology.
    http://ancientimes.blogspot.nl/p/rom...eology_29.html

    ------------------------------

    "Romans surely helped spread haplogroup J2 across its borders, judging from the distribution of J2 within Europe (frequency over 5%) wich bears an uncanny resemblance to the borders of the Roman Empire."
    Eupedia.com , 2013.
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

    -----------------------------

    "Another relatively more recent mode for J2's entry into some parts of Europe from the Mediterranean areas could have been the Roman Legions and Roman settlements."
    Kerchner.com - YDNA Haplogroup Descriptions & Information Links.
    http://www.kerchner.com/haplogroups-ydna.htm

    ----------------------------

    "This lineage originated in the northern portion of the Fertile Crescent where it later spread throughout central Asia, the Mediterranean, and south into India. J2 is found in Britain, but rarely. It is most common in Eastern European countries, leading to speculation that it is either from gypsy background or, possibly, from Eastern European soldiers stationed in Britain during the Roman occupation in the first three centuries AD."
    Scotland DNA Project.
    http://www.ourfamilyorigins.com/scotland/j2.htm

    ----------------------------

    "Nog een aardigheidje voor Oost-Brabant: daar is een relatieve concentratie van haplogroep J gevonden. Volgens genetisch genealogen zijn die mensen waarschijnlijk nazaten van de oude Romeinen, gelegerd in Noviomagus (Nijmegen) of rond Locus Paludosus (De Peel)."
    Eindhovens Dagblad - Veel DNA komt uit Spanje en Scandinavië. (Dutch)
    http://www.ed.nl/regio/4449996/Veel-...candinavie.ece

    Translated: One remarkable fact about this research is the concentration of J(2) found in the province of North Brabant, Genetic Genealogist believe these people are decended from Roman Soldiers stationed in Noviomagus (City of Nijmegen) and Locus Paludosis (De Peel)"

    -----------------------------

    "From about 700 BCE, the Etruscans settled around Tuscany and the Greeks in southern Italy. Etruscans probably came from Palestine and brought haplogroups J1, J2 and E with them. The Greeks in Italy were Doric and brought J2, E, G2a and probably more R1b (see above). The Romans progressively absorbed the Etruscans and Italian Greeks and mixed with them. By the time of Julius Caesar Roman citizens were probably composed of 45% of R1b, 20% of J, 15% of E, 15% of G2a and 5% of I2a."
    Eupedia.com - Y-DNA haplogroups of ancient civilizations.
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-civilizations

    ----------------------------

    "De verdeling der hoofdhaplogroepen met ruwweg hun plaats van ontstaan en de afgelegde weg: R1b: 145 57,31 % directe afstammelingen van de Cro-Magnons. I1: 030 11,86 % Balkan, Centraal Europa, Scandinavië. I2: 027 10,67 % Caucasus, Balkan, gebied van ex-Joegoslavië. E1: 016 06,32 % Noord-Afrika, Middellandse Zeegebied. J2: 011 04,35 % Mesopotamië, Feniciërs, Grieken, Zuid-Italië, (Romeinen)."
    Familiekunde Vlaanderen - Jaarverslag 2009. (Dutch)
    http://www.familiekunde-vlaanderen.b...lag%202009.pdf

    -----------------------------

    "In deze studie wordt een tot nu toe niet bekende concentratie van de haplogroepen J in oostelijk Brabant aangetroffen. Het betreft hier voornamelijk J2 en oude, gevestigde families. Het is niet onmogelijk dat hier sprake is van families van nazaten van ´Romeinse´soldaten. Ook in het grensgebied van Engeland en Schotland is een concentratie van J2 families gevonden. In dat gebied zijn ook resten van tempels van de Iraanse god Mitras bekend en blijkt er een boogschuttereenheid uit het Midden/Oosten gelegerd geweest te zijn. Romeinse aanwezigheid in het land van Cuijck en aan de randen van de Peel (de naam is afkomstig van de naam die de Romeinen aan het gied gaven: Locus Paludosus ofwel moerassige streek) is bekend, zoals ook landmetingen van militairen die zich er gevestigd hadden en landbouw bedreven."
    Project Genetische Genealogie in Nederland. (Dutch)
    http://www.barjesteh.nl/DNAproject.htm

    Translated: "In this study is an untill now unknown concentration of J haplogroups found in eastern Brabant. These mainly are old established J2 families. It is not impossible that these families are descendants of Roman Soldiers. Also in the border area of England and Scotland concentrations of J2 families are found. In these areas temples of the Iranian god Mithras are known to have excisted and there appears to be remnants of an archer unit stationed in the Middle / East. Roman presence in the country in that area of Cuijck and at the edges of the Peel (the name comes from the name the Romans gave to the area: Locus paludosus either swampy area) is known, as surveying of soldiers who had established and agriculture experts ".

    ------------------------

    "J2 - This haplogroup originated during the Neolithic in Central Asia, and spread across the Mediterranean and the Middle East. It may have been brought to Britain by prehistoric farmers, Greek or Phoenician traders and Sephardic Jews among the Normans and the Flemish - as well as by Roman troops and settlers."
    Elliot (And border receivers) DNA Project.
    http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb..../~gallgaedhil/

    ------------------------

    "Het eerste jaar heeft tal van verrassingen opgeleverd. Via de gevonden DNA-profielen konden een aantal families aan elkaar gekoppeld worden, die voor het project nog niet van een onderlinge band wisten. Verrassend was voor tal van deelnemers ook de diepere oorsprong van de familie. Een oorsprong die bijvoorbeeld mogelijk te vinden is bij de zich in onze gebieden gevestigd hebbende soldaten uit het Romeinse leger."
    Heemkundekring Weerderheem - Project Genetische Genealogie in Nederland. (Dutch)
    http://www.weerderheemvalkenswaard.n...caties-dna.pdf

    Translated: The first year has yielded many surprises. A number of families could be linked together, which did not yet know of a mutual bond. Surprisingly for many participants were the discovery of deeper origins of the family. An origin that may be found for example in the areas were soldiers from the Roman army having settled.

    ------------------------

    "The propagation of J2b and E V-13 correspond roughly to the ancient Greek and Roman spheres of influence."
    Eupedia.com, 2013.
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origin...s_europe.shtml

    -------------------------

    "TONGEREN/ALKEN/WELLEN - Welke Tongerse families stammen echt af van de Romeinen? Onderzoekers van de KU Leuven zoeken dat uit aan de hand van DNA-stalen van tientallen mannen. Het Romeins DNA-project is een initiatief van het laboratorium van forensische genetica en moleculaire archeologie van de Leuvense universiteit en Familiekunde Vlaanderen."
    Nieuwsblad - Romeins DNA van Limburgers onderzocht.
    http://www.nieuwsblad.be/article/det...21104_00357111

    Translated: Which Tongeren families are really descendants of the Romans? Researchers of the University of Leuven are investigation the DNA samples of dozens of men. The Roman DNA-project is an initiative of the laboratory of forensic genetics and molecular archeology of the University of Leuven and the Genealogical Society of Flanders.

    -------------------------

    "In 380, under Emperor Theodosius I, Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire by the decree of the Emperor, which would persist until the fall of the Western Empire, and later, with the Eastern Roman Empire, until the Fall of Constantinople."
    History of the Catholic Church.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...atholic_Church

    ------------------------

    Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberiu..._Abdes_Pantera

    Roman DNA Project.
    http://romandnaproject.org/

    Last edited by RHAS; 30-08-13 at 03:14.

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    Haplogroup J2 & Viticulture.

    "Wine making spread to Crete during the Minoan period and then later to Italy with the Etruscans and to Iberia with the Phoenicians. It was an integral component of the economy and social culture of the proto-greek civilizations and the phoenicians who both went on to settle other mediterranean coastal regions. And tracing the spread of Viticulture from its origins to its spread before the Roman period, we can see te highest levels of Haplogroup J2 today correlate with the geographical centres of all these civilizations. While viticulture may not represent the first wave of M172 migrants to Europe, M172 certainly played a strong role in bringing Viticulture to Europe with such civilizations as the Minoans, Greeks and Phoenicians."
    M172 Blog - Correlations in the spread of Viticulture and Haplogroup J2, 2008.
    http://m172.blogspot.nl/2008/10/corr...ticulture.html

    "Ancient Rome played a pivotal role in the history of wine. The earliest influences on the viticulture of the Italian peninsula can be traced to ancient Greeks and the Etruscans. The rise of the Roman Empire saw both technological advances in and burgeoning awareness of winemaking, which spread to all parts of the empire. Rome's influence has had a profound effect on the histories of today's major winemaking regions in France, Germany, Italy, Portugal and Spain."
    Ancient Rome and Wine.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Rome_and_wine

    "The influence of ancient Greece on wine is significant, not only to the Greek wine industry but to the development of almost all European wine regions and to the history of wine itself. The importance of viticulture in ancient Greek society is evident in a quote from the Greek historian Thucydides:“ The peoples of the Mediterranean began to emerge from barbarism when they learned to cultivate the olive and the vine. ” The ancient Greeks pioneered new methods of viticulture and wine production that they shared with early winemaking communities in what are now France, Italy, Austria and Russia, as well as others, through trade and colonization. Along the way, they markedly influenced the ancient European winemaking cultures of the Celts, Etruscans, Scythians and ultimately the Romans."
    Ancient Greece and wine.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece_and_wine

    "The culture of the ancient Phoenicians was one of the first to have had a significant effect on the history of wine. Phoenicia was a civilization centered in the northern reaches of Canaan along the eastern shores of the Mediterranean Sea, in what is now modern-day Lebanon. Between 1550 BC and 300 BC, the Phoenicians developed a maritime trading culture that expanded their influence from the Levant to North Africa, the Greek Isles, Sicily, and the Iberian Peninsula. Through contact and trade, they spread not only their alphabet but also their knowledge of viticulture and winemaking, including the propagation of several ancestral varieties of the Vitis vinifera species of wine grapes."
    Phoenicians and wine.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicians_and_wine

    "Occurrence of J2-M172 Y-chromosomes in Tuscany has been related to the Etruscan heritage of the region."
    Uniparental Markers of Contemporary Italian Population Reveals Details on Its Pre-Roman Heritage.
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...l.pone.0050794

    "Romans surely helped spread haplogroup J2 across its borders, judging from the distribution of J2 within Europe (frequency over 5%) wich bears an uncanny resemblance to the borders of the Roman Empire."
    Eupedia.com , 2013.
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

    "The ancient Greeks and Phoenicians were the main driving forces behind the spread of J2 around the western and southern Mediterranian."

    Eupedia.com, 2013.
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origin...s_europe.shtml

    "The most frequent haplogroups among the current population on Crete were: R1b3-M269 (17%), G2-P15 (11%), J2a1-DYS413 (9.0%), and J2a1h-M319 (9.0%). They identified J2a parent haplogroup J2a-M410 (Crete: 25.9%) with the first ancient residents of Crete during the Neolithic (8500 BCE – 4300 BCE) suggesting Crete was founded by a Neolithic population expansion from ancient Turkey/Anatolia."
    The Minoans, DNA and all.
    http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wor...s-dna-and-all/

    "Both Early Christianity and Early Rabbinical Judaism were significantly influenced by Hellenistic religion and Hellenistic philosophy. Christianity in particular inherited many features of Greco-Roman paganism in its structure, its terminology, its cult and its theology. Titles such as Pontifex Maximus and Sol Invictus were taken directly from Roman religion. The influence of Neoplatonism on Christian theology is significant, visible for example in Augustine of Hippo's identification of God as summum bonum and of evil as privatio boni. Striking parallels between the New Testament account of Jesus and classical gods or demigods such as Bacchus, Bellerophon or Perseus were recognized by the Church Fathers and termed "demonic imitation" by Justin Martyr in the 2nd century."
    Origins of Christianity.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_Christianity

    "Modern scholars such as Martin Hengel, Barry Powell, Robert M. Price, and Peter Wick, among others, argue that Dionysian religion and Christianity have notable parallels."
    Dionysus.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus



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    Last edited by RHAS; 29-08-13 at 18:51.

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    1 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by RHAS View Post
    Correlations between Haplogroup J2, the Roman Empire, Christianity and Viticulture.
    We have to keep in mind that Roman Empire had spread mostly over already intensely agricultural lands, over already civilized areas with big populations and big cities. It didn't spread north and north east where mostly wooded areas were, undeveloped poor barbaric lands.
    It is most likely that J2 had spread with one of farmer waves from middle east, in pre IE times. The coincidental overlap of J2 and Roman empire is due to both of them liking same rich agricultural lands. Even less likely is any strong association J2 with Christianity.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Haplogroup J2 & Romans.



    Article from the Flemish Society of Genealogy. (Dutch Language) (2009)

    (Translated: copyright VVF Bruges
    DNA-PROJECT 2009-2010 (continued)
    Results for the main haplogroups of the first 505 samples:
    Group Number% Origin...
    Rlb 298 59.01 direct descent from the Cro-Magnons
    I1 61 17.08 Balkans, Central Europe and Scandinavia
    I2 43 8.51 Caucasus, Balkans, the former Yugoslavia
    E1 25 4.95 North Africa, Midde Lands region
    J2 24 4.75 Mesopotamia, Phoenicians, Greeks, southern Italy (Romans)
    R1a 20 3.96 Ukraine, Russia, Scandinavia
    G2 17 3.37 Caucasus, Georgia, Armenia
    J1 7 1.39 Mesopotamia, Arabs, Jews
    L 4 0.79 India and Pakistan, Russia, North Europe
    Q 3 0.59 Siberia, North and South America)

    http://www.brugseverenigingen.be/_us...ber%202009.pdf
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    Viticulture.

    "The earliest evidence of grape vine cultivation and winemaking dates back 7,000 years. The history of viticulture is closely related to the history of wine, with evidence that humans cultivated wild grapes to make wine as far back as the Neolithic period. Evidence suggests that some of the earliest domestication of Vitis vinifera occurred in the area of the modern country Georgia. There is also evidence of grape domestication in the Near East in the early Bronze Age, around 3200 BC."
    Viticulture.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viticulture

    "Wine has a rich history dating back to around 6000 BC and is thought to have originated in areas now within the borders of Georgia. Wine probably appeared in Europe at about 4500 BC in what is now Bulgaria, and Greece, and was very common in ancient Greece, Thrace and Rome. Wine has also played an important role in religion throughout history. The Greek god Dionysus and the Roman equivalent Bacchus represented wine, and the drink is also used in Catholic Eucharist ceremonies and the Jewish Kiddush."
    Cradle of wine - Georgia.

    Last edited by RHAS; 30-08-13 at 18:44.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RHAS View Post
    M172 Blog - Correlations in the spread of Viticulture and Haplogroup J2, 2008.
    Sumerians were the first. Evidence for the World’s earliest Beer and Wine making in Kurdistan http://www.kurdistanica.com/?q=node/199 .

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    Viticulture was believed to have been introduced to India by Persian traders sometime in the 4th millennium BC. Historians believe that these early plantings were used mostly for table grapes or grape juice rather than the production of an alcoholic beverage. During the Vedic period of the 2nd and 1st millennia, the Aryan tribes of the region were known for their indulgence in intoxicating drink and it seems probable that wine was a current beverage.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_wine

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    Haplogroup J2 - Roman Empire



    Haplogroup J2 M172 & Expansion Map of the Roman Empire.



    Haplogroup J2 M172 - Roman Republic.

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    World Viticulture Zones

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    Last edited by RHAS; 29-08-13 at 18:28.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Why not include hg T? It surely shows high density in Italy and Greece, the centers of Roman Empire. Other centers fit RE borders almost perfectly too, like J2 maps.



    and G hg fits Roman Empire well too.



    Well, I could post all hg of early farmers and they would fit Roman Empire with not bad precision. As well RE could spread them all, and it did but in no substantial way.

    Here is a spoiler for you and the proof that Roman Empire didn't spread these hg much. Romans and most of Italics were rich in R1b, so let's see how their specific hg correlate with borders of RE.

    Considering that Italy is up to 60% rich in these hg, and that Galia and Hispania was conquered first out of the rest of Roman Empire, why these Italic and Celtic hg are missing from the rest of RE???!!! Well, in not higher amounts than 5%.
    In contrast J2 is present everywhere around mediterranean from 10 to 30%.
    Unbelievably, the most successful and most popular Italic R1b haplogroups failed to spread around RE.
    By this we might conclude that 500 years of RE wasn't long enough for their dominant HG to grow over 5% in any place in the empire. Except the places where it was already present before the empire.
    If it wasn't enough time for dominant R1b, it was surely not enough time for J, G or T to spread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Why not include hg T? It surely shows high density in Italy and Greece, the centers of Roman Empire.
    Because this is the J2 part of the Eupedia forum, and the topic is 'Haplogroup J2, Romans, Christianity and Viticulture'!

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    LeBrok, you blocked me on another thread about J2a so I do answer your question here.
    [quote] ” Are you trying to confuse us on purpose?
    According to you, Aryans originally were J2a (IE and came from steppe), conquered mesopotamia, populated it with high J2a, which later gave start to Jews, their main HG? Other words, proto Jews were Aryans.
    Now, Hitler would really flip. “ [/quote
    ]
    Huh? You’re twisting my words. I never said that J2a is from Central Asia. J2a is native to the mountains of West Asia. J2a was born & evolved somewhere between the Taurus of Zagros mountains of West Asia. R1a-Z93 was native to (the north-western parts of) the Iranian Plateau & Central Asia, has been living there for thousands of years.

    According to the Jewish scientists themselves, proto-Jews were J2a folks and came from the mountains
    Last edited by Goga; 28-08-13 at 18:13.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by RHAS View Post
    Because this is the J2 part of the Eupedia forum, and the topic is 'Haplogroup J2, Romans, Christianity and Viticulture'!
    Is this all your response to my critique? What about Italic R1b fenomenon? You can't answer (or even consider it) because it is J2 thread?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post

    Here is a spoiler for you and the proof that Roman Empire didn't spread these hg much. Romans and most of Italics were rich in R1b, so let's see how their specific hg correlate with borders of RE.

    Considering that Italy is up to 60% rich in these hg, and that Galia and Hispania was conquered first out of the rest of Roman Empire, why these Italic and Celtic hg are missing from the rest of RE???!!! Well, in not higher amounts than 5%.
    In contrast J2 is present everywhere around mediterranean from 10 to 30%.
    Unbelievably, the most successful and most popular Italic R1b haplogroups failed to spread around RE.
    By this we might conclude that 500 years of RE wasn't long enough for their dominant HG to grow over 5% in any place in the empire. Except the places where it was already present before the empire.
    If it wasn't enough time for dominant R1b, it was surely not enough time for J, G or T to spread.
    They would recruit local auxillaries and then move them to other sites, and by the time of the crisis even generals were largely non italic let alone legionaries. That's how english learned to constuct chain mail for instance.

    And that's even assuming we should take that r1b as the main italic group. Was it the haplogroup of the patricians, too? Was it even haplogroup of the italics who moved there, or the substrate which was there already?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noman View Post
    They would recruit local auxillaries and then move them to other sites, and by the time of the crisis even generals were largely non italic let alone legionaries. That's how english learned to constuct chain mail for instance.
    where you going with this?
    note: that in the AD period of the Roman empire, the majority ( 80% ) of Roman Emperors where Dalmatians ( illyrian )
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    where you going with this?
    note: that in the AD period of the Roman empire, the majority ( 80% ) of Roman Emperors where Dalmatians ( illyrian )
    I was just pointing out we don't expect to see a lot of italic DNA in the provinces, but that doesn't mean that they didn't have an effect on the provinces, due to moving people around all over the empire to make sure no one served in the area they were born in to keep them from rebelling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noman View Post
    They would recruit local auxillaries and then move them to other sites, and by the time of the crisis even generals were largely non italic let alone legionaries. That's how english learned to constuct chain mail for instance.

    And that's even assuming we should take that r1b as the main italic group. Was it the haplogroup of the patricians, too? Was it even haplogroup of the italics who moved there, or the substrate which was there already?
    Ok, if not Italic, then where is Celtic R1b from France and Spain regions, moved around mediterranean with legions from conquered west europe? But somehow J2, G and T was spread around instead, in Roman Empire. It is a bit too selective, don't you think?

    Maybe I missed Roman Senate's decree, allowing J, G and T move around and forbidding to emigrate all celtic R1bs?
    Last edited by LeBrok; 30-08-13 at 03:13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RHAS View Post
    Because this is the J2 part of the Eupedia forum, and the topic is 'Haplogroup J2, Romans, Christianity and Viticulture'!
    logic states that J2, T , G and any others who where in the same area at the same time traveled together for migrational ventures

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Ok, if not Italic, then where is Celtic R1b from France and Spain regions, moved around mediterranean with legions from conquered west europe? But somehow J2, G and T was spread around instead, in Roman Empire. It is a bit too selective, don't you think?
    For large timeframes we know what legions were where, when, and where they came from, and the auxillaries. It's just a fact that J2 was spread around. I am sure rb was spread around too, but you are just spreading around r1b into more r1b for the most part.

    For a lot of these areas the problem is we don't know what's "supposed to" be there. How about Illyrians? How about thracians? How about greeks? Well, I don't like/believe a lot of these answers in the first place, even the roman r1b version, I am not wholly sure of, though it does link back to anatolia so the origin makes sense.

    For G I think it already spread around a lot before there was a rome, to all the civilized areas of farming in roman time. But it probably got spread around with the romans, too, and you will never be able to sort it out completely. Same with e1b, but to a much lesser extent.

    T is more mysterious but I am guessing that it spread out even more early than G and while it might have been spread around a bit by romans, by that time it was already a completely scattered people.

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    Pat Southern - The Roman Army: A Social and Institutional History (2006) [Oxford Uni. Press]
    The two elements of the early Republican Roman army were first, the legions and the citizen cavalry, made up of homogeneous Romans from the city of Rome, and second, the non-Roman troops comprising the Latin and Italian allies. The latter were perhaps allowed to fight with their own weapons and equipment at first, but eventually their organization was brought into line with the Roman legions......which earned them the title Alae Sociorum, literally meaning “the wings of the allies”......For a long time Rome resisted granting full citizenship to the Latins and Italians, but after the Social War of 91 to 87 BC, all the inhabitants of Italy became Roman citizens and therefore eligible for service in the legions......The legions were theoretically recruited from Roman citizens, with a predominance of Italians in the early Imperial legions, superseded by a rising number of provincial Roman citizens toward the end of the first century.


    Polybius - Battle of Telamon 225 BC / Roman Rep. army
    The cavalry of the Sabines and Etruscans, who had come to the temporary assistance of Rome..... The military contingent of the Umbrians and Sarsinates inhabiting the Apennines amounted to about twenty thousand, and with these were twenty thousand Veneti and Cenomani;


    Plutarch - Battle of Aquae Sextiae 102 BC / Roman Rep. army
    to encourage one another or to terrify the Romans by this announcement. The Ligurians, who were the first of the Italic people to go down to battle with them;


    The majority of the recorded centurions of the early Imperial-age (Legio X Fratensis) were also largely of Itlaic or veteran-Italic origin; Most of the Legions of Caesar and Octavian were Italic or veteran-Italic levied as well;
    Auxiliaries were recruited from the local (whatever province) populous;

    Cicero - Philippics III-IX
    3.27. firmissimum ... exercitum comparavit:
    Octavian conducted levies in Etruria and raised troops from Caesar's veterans in Campania, particularly in the towns of Capua, Calatia and Casilinum;



    The largest Italic veteran colony was ITALICA in Baetica;
    Now if the Romans are a source for Y-DNA Hg's than why is the amount of R1b-U152, J2a, E-V13 or G2a so extremely low in modern day Andalusia or that part of Andalusia?

    At the end of the Empire commanders like Stilicho [Vandal/Italic] or Aetius [Scythian/Italic]
    - best represent the shift that occurred;

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    Now skip ahead to the marian reforms and the time of the actual roman empire, where there was somewhere besides italy to actually send people. Not to mention time of crisis and how claudius was the last mostly italic emperor of rome, and peoples like the alans and other allies of rome they settled in their borders. You can do it!

    Like I said, this is not even an issue of theorizing. You can just read the answers in plain english, and if you don't know them then you should read a lot more about rome if you care about history at all. Or you can just deny the truth and give me a 0/1 people find this helpful like you do for every other post.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Skip ahead?
    Marian reforms was 107 BC - thats 5 years before the battle of Aquae Sextiae;
    Marian reforms firstly had a massive impact on the Italic tribes after the Social war 91-88 BC and was the system that enabled Veteran colonies;
    So what are you even implying with the Marian reforms?
    Dont throw around with big words if you have no clue about the meanings;

    I think the Oxford book by Pat Southern explain the recruitment of Imperial Rome (early & later) pretty good; Might want to read it; [posted a quote on post #21]

    Apart from that my point was that ITALICA a colony of Italic Roman veterans (the largest and most prominent) had no impact on the Genetic (Hg) make-up of modern day Andalusia;
    Now if thats the case and that is the case why should the Romans have had a bigger impact anywhere else?

    PS: Try Trajan as the last Italic emperor;
    Gens Ulpia and from the Veteran colony of Italica;

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Pat Southern - The Roman Army: A Social and Institutional History (2006) [Oxford Uni. Press]
    The two elements of the early Republican Roman army were first, the legions and the citizen cavalry, made up of homogeneous Romans from the city of Rome, and second, the non-Roman troops comprising the Latin and Italian allies. The latter were perhaps allowed to fight with their own weapons and equipment at first, but eventually their organization was brought into line with the Roman legions......which earned them the title Alae Sociorum, literally meaning “the wings of the allies”......For a long time Rome resisted granting full citizenship to the Latins and Italians, but after the Social War of 91 to 87 BC, all the inhabitants of Italy became Roman citizens and therefore eligible for service in the legions......The legions were theoretically recruited from Roman citizens, with a predominance of Italians in the early Imperial legions, superseded by a rising number of provincial Roman citizens toward the end of the first century.


    Polybius - Battle of Telamon 225 BC / Roman Rep. army
    The cavalry of the Sabines and Etruscans, who had come to the temporary assistance of Rome..... The military contingent of the Umbrians and Sarsinates inhabiting the Apennines amounted to about twenty thousand, and with these were twenty thousand Veneti and Cenomani;


    Plutarch - Battle of Aquae Sextiae 102 BC / Roman Rep. army
    to encourage one another or to terrify the Romans by this announcement. The Ligurians, who were the first of the Italic people to go down to battle with them;


    The majority of the recorded centurions of the early Imperial-age (Legio X Fratensis) were also largely of Itlaic or veteran-Italic origin; Most of the Legions of Caesar and Octavian were Italic or veteran-Italic levied as well;
    Auxiliaries were recruited from the local (whatever province) populous;

    Cicero - Philippics III-IX
    3.27. firmissimum ... exercitum comparavit:
    Octavian conducted levies in Etruria and raised troops from Caesar's veterans in Campania, particularly in the towns of Capua, Calatia and Casilinum;



    The largest Italic veteran colony was ITALICA in Baetica;
    Now if the Romans are a source for Y-DNA Hg's than why is the amount of R1b-U152, J2a, E-V13 or G2a so extremely low in modern day Andalusia or that part of Andalusia?

    At the end of the Empire commanders like Stilicho [Vandal/Italic] or Aetius [Scythian/Italic]
    - best represent the shift that occurred;
    Well, one reason might be the subsequent Moorish invasion, which was followed by an 800 year occupation, following which we have the concerted effort by their most Catholic Majesties Ferdinand and Isabella to expel the Moors and the Jews, (an effort that I don't think was totally successful) which was followed by an also concerted effort to repopulate the southern areas with people from the north, which may indeed be why there isn't more substructure in Spain.

    The same thing may have happened in many places that experienced a lot of migration and mixing during the Germanic and Slavic migrations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Skip ahead?
    Marian reforms was 107 BC - thats 5 years before the battle of Aquae Sextiae;
    Marian reforms firstly had a massive impact on the Italic tribes after the Social war 91-88 BC and was the system that enabled Veteran colonies;
    So what are you even implying with the Marian reforms?
    Dont throw around with big words if you have no clue about the meanings;

    I think the Oxford book by Pat Southern explain the recruitment of Imperial Rome (early & later) pretty good; Might want to read it; [posted a quote on post #21]

    Apart from that my point was that ITALICA a colony of Italic Roman veterans (the largest and most prominent) had no impact on the Genetic (Hg) make-up of modern day Andalusia;
    Now if thats the case and that is the case why should the Romans have had a bigger impact anywhere else?

    PS: Try Trajan as the last Italic emperor;
    Gens Ulpia and from the Veteran colony of Italica;
    Yes but you began back in early republican times. Everything you said is irrelevant because all that changed long before the empire split between east and west. it's alsready been said here it wasn't long til everyone but centurion was a foreigner, and most of the emperors and generals were foreigners.

    Aside from legionaries and what angela said, again, look up the alans. They have their dna all over GB, case closed. They are not the only ones either, just the only ones I could think of off the top of my head.

    Another example, Goths. Romans settled them in their boundariess originally as well. I think that had some effect on genes in europe.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foederati

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