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Thread: Any information about Y-DNA subclade R1b1b2a (origin/distribution)?

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a (R-L1029)
    MtDNA haplogroup
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    Ethnic group
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    Country: Cyprus



    Any information about Y-DNA subclade R1b1b2a (origin/distribution)?

    I am on a search to identify Italian (mainly Venetian, as well as Genoese and Pisan) genetic lines in the Cypriot population. Italian populations have resided in Cyprus for almost four centuries and some Cypriots claim direct ancestry from those people. According to historical evidence, the majority of Italian residents of Cyprus were forced to flee the island after the Ottoman Turks defeated the Venetians and captured Cyprus in 1571. A few were allowed to stay behind however and have subsequently mixed with the local population. The main evidence I am searching is presence of Y-DNA haplogroup R1b in the Cypriot population. This haplogroup is almost nonexistent among indigenous Cypriots and thus any R1b is likely to have been introduced by the Italians. I have managed to identify 2 Greek Cypriots with an R1b haplogroup! Both of them are of subclade R1b1b2a (one is R1b1b2a plain and the other one a more detailed R1b1b2a1a2d3*). I was unable to find any information about this subclade on the web. What I would like to know is whether this R1b subclade could be identified as medieval Venetian/Genoese/Pisan. The other 2 possibilities for the source of R1b in Cyprus is via the ancient Greek migrations or via the several Armenian migrations from the 6th century AD onward.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alexandros View Post
    I am on a search to identify Italian (mainly Venetian, as well as Genoese and Pisan) genetic lines in the Cypriot population. Italian populations have resided in Cyprus for almost four centuries and some Cypriots claim direct ancestry from those people. According to historical evidence, the majority of Italian residents of Cyprus were forced to flee the island after the Ottoman Turks defeated the Venetians and captured Cyprus in 1571. A few were allowed to stay behind however and have subsequently mixed with the local population. The main evidence I am searching is presence of Y-DNA haplogroup R1b in the Cypriot population. This haplogroup is almost nonexistent among indigenous Cypriots and thus any R1b is likely to have been introduced by the Italians. I have managed to identify 2 Greek Cypriots with an R1b haplogroup! Both of them are of subclade R1b1b2a (one is R1b1b2a plain and the other one a more detailed R1b1b2a1a2d3*). I was unable to find any information about this subclade on the web. What I would like to know is whether this R1b subclade could be identified as medieval Venetian/Genoese/Pisan. The other 2 possibilities for the source of R1b in Cyprus is via the ancient Greek migrations or via the several Armenian migrations from the 6th century AD onward.
    What surname is involved?, if its Pygmon or Piemon , its has already been discussed here a while ago and it is Genoese.
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Df27(Spain)
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    U5b2a2(Prussia)

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    R1b in west Europe is just about 100% undersubclades R1b L51 and R1b L11. They were almost defintley spread by Germanic Italo Celtic speakers starting 5,000ybp. Click here it gives a pretty good explination about the history of R1b in west Europe. Italic languages go back to the same family as Celtic languages and it is called Italo Celtic. The Italo Celtic subclade of R1b L11 is R1b L312/S116. Italic's migrated to Italy from the Alps and central Europe about 3,200-3,000ybp they were apart of Urnfield culture which later formed into Villnoeaven culture while it was in Italy. Urnfieild culture also gave birth to Hallstat then La Tene Celtic cultures in central Europe. Both Hallstatt-La Tene Celts and Italics were heavily R1b S28/U152 which is a subclade of R1b P312/S116. So If there is Italian R1b in Cyprus i would except R1b S28/U152. R1b M269 is almost defintley from the mid east not anywhere in west Europe. There is also mid eastern R1b M269 and other older mid eastern R1b subclades in Italy mainly southern Italy because of contact with mid eastern people around the Mediterranean in Greco Roman times so i guess there is a possibility it is Italian. The names u are giving to R1b are the old names it is not R1b1b anymore it is R1b1a the thing that never changes is the numbers and letter they put after that like P312 and U152. If there were Italians that went to Cypurs in the 1500's they defintley have some descendants.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexandros View Post
    I am on a search to identify Italian (mainly Venetian, as well as Genoese and Pisan) genetic lines in the Cypriot population. Italian populations have resided in Cyprus for almost four centuries and some Cypriots claim direct ancestry from those people. According to historical evidence, the majority of Italian residents of Cyprus were forced to flee the island after the Ottoman Turks defeated the Venetians and captured Cyprus in 1571. A few were allowed to stay behind however and have subsequently mixed with the local population. The main evidence I am searching is presence of Y-DNA haplogroup R1b in the Cypriot population. This haplogroup is almost nonexistent among indigenous Cypriots and thus any R1b is likely to have been introduced by the Italians. I have managed to identify 2 Greek Cypriots with an R1b haplogroup! Both of them are of subclade R1b1b2a (one is R1b1b2a plain and the other one a more detailed R1b1b2a1a2d3*). I was unable to find any information about this subclade on the web. What I would like to know is whether this R1b subclade could be identified as medieval Venetian/Genoese/Pisan. The other 2 possibilities for the source of R1b in Cyprus is via the ancient Greek migrations or via the several Armenian migrations from the 6th century AD onward.

    Without detailed str's or snps R1b1b2a it is hard to say. This Eastern variant is found in Armenians/Anatolians/Greeks/North Western Iranians/Bashkirs/Ossets. Unlike the Western Branch of R1b [L51+] which is found also in Northern Africa, which have led some to speculate that R1b Western European is actually derived from Africa. On the other hand R1b [L51-] is rarely if ever found in Africa. It also has a very low frequency 1.62% in the Arabian Peninsula [618N data set]when compared with R1a-6.31%, as can be seen in the following study
    Table S6
    Y-chromosome haplogroup frequencies (%) in the studied populations.
    doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0056775.s006

    The unexpected presence of the European-derived Y-chromosome lineages R-M412, R-S116, R-U152 and R-M529 in Algeria and the rest of the Maghreb could be the counterparts of the mtDNA H1, H3 and V subgroups, pointing to direct maritime contacts between the European and North African sides of the western Mediterranean.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2 Z49 Z142 Z150*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    What surname is involved?, if its Pygmon or Piemon , its has already been discussed here a while ago and it is Genoese.
    Forgive me for not replying sooner as I just now found your post. Also, I am certainly not an expert in this field of study but I have a keen interest in my French, Greek origins. If I am wrong about the Ionian Greek possible origins of my R1b L2, Z49, Z142 ancestor please let me know.

    Yes we did discuss this before, however I have found some information that may lead to my particular branch of L2+ (Z49+ and Z142+) being Ionian Greek. There is a study by Dr. Roy King Et. Al. The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...4/?tool=pubmed

    and here is the comparsion to my STRs in his study:

    Matches at a Genetic Distance of 0:
    Population Set # Matches Population Size Match %
    Smyrna, Greece 9 45 20.00%
    Matches at a Genetic Distance of 1:
    Population Set # Matches Population Size Match %
    Phocaea, Greece 4 26 15.38%
    Smyrna, Greece 5 45 11.11%
    Matches at a Genetic Distance of 2:
    Population Set # Matches Population Size Match %
    Phocaea, Greece 3 26 11.54%
    Smyrna, Greece 1 45 2.22%
    Matches at a Genetic Distance of 3:
    Population Set # Matches Population Size Match %
    Smyrna, Greece 2 45 4.44%
    Phocaea, Greece 1 26 3.85%
    Matches at a Genetic Distance of 4:
    Population Set # Matches Population Size Match %
    Smyrna, Greece 4 45 8.89%
    Phocaea, Greece 1 26 3.85%

    So that would indicate that 30 of the 71 males tested in Smyrna and Phocaea, Greece (now Turkey) are related to me and 9 of them with a perfect match. They had only 6 STRs in this study so the results are somewhat ambiguous without a full 67 comparison.

    The Greeks of Smyrna and Phocaea have mostly been massacred by the Turks in different wars or they were exchanged for Turkish prisoners of Greece and returned to the area of Athens, Greece.
    Last edited by Pi gman; 22-09-13 at 23:04. Reason: addition of url

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pi gman View Post
    Forgive me for not replying sooner as I just now found your post. Also, I am certainly not an expert in this field of study but I have a keen interest in my French, Greek origins. If I am wrong about the Ionian Greek possible origins of my R1b L2, Z49, Z142 ancestor please let me know.

    Yes we did discuss this before, however I have found some information that may lead to my particular branch of L2+ (Z49+ and Z142+) being Ionian Greek. There is a study by Dr. Roy King Et. Al. The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...4/?tool=pubmed

    and here is the comparsion to my STRs in his study:

    Matches at a Genetic Distance of 0:
    Population Set # Matches Population Size Match %
    Smyrna, Greece 9 45 20.00%
    Matches at a Genetic Distance of 1:
    Population Set # Matches Population Size Match %
    Phocaea, Greece 4 26 15.38%
    Smyrna, Greece 5 45 11.11%
    Matches at a Genetic Distance of 2:
    Population Set # Matches Population Size Match %
    Phocaea, Greece 3 26 11.54%
    Smyrna, Greece 1 45 2.22%
    Matches at a Genetic Distance of 3:
    Population Set # Matches Population Size Match %
    Smyrna, Greece 2 45 4.44%
    Phocaea, Greece 1 26 3.85%
    Matches at a Genetic Distance of 4:
    Population Set # Matches Population Size Match %
    Smyrna, Greece 4 45 8.89%
    Phocaea, Greece 1 26 3.85%

    So that would indicate that 30 of the 45 males tested in Smyrna and Phocaea, Greece (now Turkey) are related to me and 9 of them with a perfect match. They had only 6 STRs in this study so the results are somewhat ambiguous without a full 67 comparison.

    The Greeks of Smyrna and Phocaea have mostly been massacred by the Turks in different wars or they were exchanged for Turkish prisoners of Greece and returned to the area of Athens, Greece.
    The Greek R1b1a2a1a2b U152/S28 almost defintley ultimately has a origin with Hallstat-La Tene Celts or Italians. It is estimated to be 5,000-3,500ybp according to FTDNA. It shows huge connection with spreading to Italy with italic languages and Urnfield culture. Not surprisingly shows connections with Hallstat Celtic culture which also descends from Urnfield. also Urnfield started about 3,500ybp almost all R1b1a2a1a2b U152/S28 has a Urnfield culture source. R1b1a2a1a2b U152/S28 actulley extends really deep into Germany and central Europe because of how far Urnfield and Hallstat cultures extended. I wonder if Greek L2+ is from Romans I know that R1b1a2a1a2b U152/S28 in eastern Europe and central Turkey matches the areas La Tene Gauls conquered and settled but not R1b U152/S28 along Greece and eastern European border to the Meditreaen sea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    The Greek R1b1a2a1a2b U152/S28 almost defintley ultimately has a origin with Hallstat-La Tene Celts or Italians. It is estimated to be 5,000-3,500ybp according to FTDNA. It shows huge connection with spreading to Italy with italic languages and Urnfield culture. Not surprisingly shows connections with Hallstat Celtic culture which also descends from Urnfield. also Urnfield started about 3,500ybp almost all R1b1a2a1a2b U152/S28 has a Urnfield culture source. R1b1a2a1a2b U152/S28 actulley extends really deep into Germany and central Europe because of how far Urnfield and Hallstat cultures extended. I wonder if Greek L2+ is from Romans I know that R1b1a2a1a2b U152/S28 in eastern Europe and central Turkey matches the areas La Tene Gauls conquered and settled but not R1b U152/S28 along Greece and eastern European border to the Meditreaen sea.
    Since we are looking 5,000-3,500ybp with these SNPs it makes sence that family lore says we were Italian even though we were a long time French after that.

    Most of my real matches---those within the L2 subclade and especially Z49 and Z142 are in Switzerland, German Alps, Austria, and South Tyrol.

    Is South Tyrol in Northeast Italy?
    Last edited by Pi gman; 23-09-13 at 22:14. Reason: typo

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    Just to add on my initial post.. Another route of R1b clades in Cyprus is via Anatolian metalworkers during the Chalcolithic and Bronze age, as well as the Hitties during the Iron age.

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    The city of Modena in Emilia-Romagna has 68% R1b. Such frequencies are never experienced ANywHERE in the Balkans or Eastern Europe, only extreme northern Italy and Western Europe have such intense frequencies.

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    South Tyrol is the "Adige" portion of Trentino-Alto Adige province. Most people living in this corner of extreme northern Italy are of self-proclaimed austro-Bavarian ancestry and speak German. I1 frequencies get higher in this region of Italy.

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    It really seems like the LEAST likely place to find R1b u-152's and L2's....it's that tiny Germanic fraction of Italy. Personally I feel the Lombards may have more settled this region, Trentino-Alto Adige and Friulia Venezia Giulia and then they traveled south to Molise and even to Sicily I believe. The Lombards didn't leave much genetic trace in Italy though, Germanic and Scandinavian lineages are scarce.

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    It depends where in Italy you look, only 5-10% of men from Apulia, Basilicata, Molise, southern Campania, northern Calabria have R1b u-152. The southern half of the Calabrian toe has 10-15%. Most of Sicily has 10-15% but values drop to around and less than 9% in the east (1-7%). Northern Campania has 10-15%. Southern Lazio has 15-20%; these are similar to frequencies found across France. The Marche and most of, the Abruzzo region have 15-20% as well. Northern Lazio, Umbria, most of Veneto, Friuli and Trentino Alto Adige have about 20-30% R1b u-152. Tuscany, most of Emilia-Romagna, Piemont, Valle d'Aosta, parts of lombardia and a minuscule portion of central Veneto have 30-40% R1b-u152. Parts of northern Emilia-Romagna and southern Lombardy have 40-50% and somewhere near central Lombardy I would say is 50%> small blob.

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    Siracuse is Sicily's R1b u-152 high with 11%. Agrigento had 8% and Catania only had 1%. The Cosenza region of central Calabria had 16%. Lecce in Apulia had 8% R1b u-152. Matera had 4%, Benevento had 6%. Campobasso has 7% and Aquila 10%; as we can see R1b u-152 is actually quite rare throughout the south. The city of Foligno has about 25% R-S28. Macerata only has 15%. Pistoia in Tuscany though has 39%. Grosseto has 37% and La Spezia/Massa has 38%. Bologna has 31%. Treviso has 30% and Vicenza only has 10%. Bresica though has 51%. Como has 22% and Genoa has 22%. Cuneo has 40%.

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    A good explanation for an incredible abundance of R-S28 in Bresica could be the Gallic Cenomani people, allies of the Insubres who are noted to have settled the region. Also, Ambrones was a Gallic name making the Ligurians celts to me, probably mixed with a small middle eastern substratum making them "Ligurians". As for the city o Milan, it was founded by the Celtic Insubres people. The Bituriges Cubii and Aedui tribes of France, in particular, are credited with it's foundation. It's ancient name was Mediolanum. There are more than 60 places anciently named Mediolanum across modern-day France. Treviso, for example, is linked to the Celtic Taurisci people, it was also a city of the Veneti who were said to be related to the Carni of the Veneto/Friuli region. The city of Modena for example was first inhabited by Iron Age Villanovans before passing into the hands of Ligurians, then Etruscans and finally the Celtic Boii from the Czech Republic/Germany. Verona was once a city of the Euganei, probably a celts-Ligurian people before passing into the hands of the Cenomani. The Trentino region was divided by invading Germanic tribes becoming known as the Lombard Duchy of Tridentum. Later Alammanics and Bavarians would also invade. Pavia was founded by Ligurian tribes (Laevi et Marici) probably celts. Pia cena was first occupied by Anares a Celtic people and Cremona was first founded by the Cenomani. Bergamot was a Lombard duchy overtaken by the Celtic cenomani as well. Sondrio was Lombard, Turin was founded by the Taurini (who would like to suggest they aren't celts?) novara was also first settled by Gauls (novara meant nuova aria, "new air" as "aria" is what the Gauls called their settlements. Bologna though was inhabited by the Czech Boii celts. The Gallic Lingones settled parts of Emilia-Romagna and the senones settled parts of Marche.

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    Frequencies of R-S28 in north Italy never drop under 20-30% of men! not even in Trentino or Liguria or Veneto (other than in Treviso 10%). Most of Emilia-Romagna, Tuscany, Lombardy, Piedmont, Valle D'Aosta and Liguria have even higher percentages of it though (30-40%). In other words, across most of northern Italy at least 40% of men are R-S28+. Similar frequencies are observed in Switzerland (50%) and Lichtenstein (33%). Central Italy has 20-35% R-S28; frequencies similar to, but slightly higher than France's. France has 15-25% R-S28, Belgium has 15-20% and southern Germany has 10-15%.

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    It seems that within the "reservoir" that is northern Italy; the valley of the po river, there is an extreme high of R-S28+ lineages! right in the Gallic settlement regions. As we move towards central Italy this high diminishes but is still present. This lineage becomes rare once we arrive in the south. Equally high frequencies are found across Switzerland. When we investigate towards Austria and Slovenia; we find a drastic reduction of this marker. (Although south-western Poland and extreme northern Austria may have a high of R-S28 due to migrating Celtic tribes). When we examine north, we find 15% R-S28 in Bavarian males; those aren't very special levels but they're higher than the less than 5% experienced across Slovenia and Austria; one Slavic and the other a predominantly Germanic with Slavic minority country. Obviously Switzerland is the direction we want to follow; north and west of Italy. Upon examining France we find 15-20%; at times as seen in the Alsace region on the German border as much as 25% R-S28. Now we know since Cesar's days France has had massive population reductions lol, due predominantly to roman soldiers, so my theory is that R-S28 arrived to north-central Italy via the French/German border region with a migration of la tene and villanovan (other Halstatt type/ Celtic Danube river people's) celts (predominantly Gauls) through Switzerland (sankt gallen is a city named the Gaul sanctuary in Switzerland) and pouring across the alps in north-western Italy and probably via France as well. This does not imply that ALL the Celtic tribes that migrated to Italy were Gallic; just the very large majority were, as is shown by the genetic results; but then again what did you expect from a country that shares 90% of it's grammatical vocabulary with italian? Two languages that are in a sense VERY distant dialects. The Lombards for example were a rare exception having a Scandinavian origin in southern Sweden. The Ambrones who may be the Ligurians ancestors were probably from Denmark or German Danube river celts. The Boii who settled Bologna in Emilia-Romagna were also celts but they hailed from Bohemia (Czech Republic). Other migrants to Italy were not even celts but Anatolian Etruscans, pahlagonian Turks, Ionian, Dorian and Achaean Greeks, Cretans and even Phoenicians. This is what makes Italy what it is. Also 40% of italian women are mtdna H including myself, which is a rather European mtdna group...especially if it turns out being h1 or H3. In a sense H is like Italy's mtdna version of R1b; a very west European genetic marker. Italy's minimal frequencies are 20-30% R1b in the south; this is higher than anywhere in greece or Albania or Romania or pretty much the totality of Poland. It seems about 50% of italian y-DNA and mtdna lineages are typically west European cluster as a whole probably closest to Swiss and french people within the larger Celtic family (R1b).

  17. #17
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Country: Italy



    Switzerland has 50-55% R1b; half of it R-S28. Germany has 45-50% R1b of which 25-30% or more is R-S21 (Germanic). Germany's frequencies are highest in the west (50%) and south (50%) and lowest in the north (35%) and east (35%) were they give way to an increased concentration of Scandinavian and Slavic lineages that both own 20-25% of German males (R1a and I lineages). Italy has similar frequencies of R1b (50%) although the Celtic lineages in the south give way to Mesopotamian and north-African influenced lineages; the vast majority of these Neolithic markers which arrived via the Balkans (Ancient Greece) or Anatolia towards Italy and the southeastern Mediterranean world. France is heavily Celtic with 65% of men being R1b. The lowest frequencies are towards the east with about 50% R1b, but some western regions of France can easily attain 80% R1b such as Brittany and Aquitaine. Much of central France can have as much as 60-70% R1b. All these 60-80% R1b regions across France are significantly bigger in size than north Italy is geographically and with it's generally lower than 80-70% values (such high frequencies are present in a few pockets across north-central Italy but they don't compare to the size of France's regions, were half the country has a 65% coat of R1b.) Belgium and Holland have about 65% R1b each, same for Portugal. Spain has as much as Scotland (75%) and England has very slightly more (80%), but the Irish (85%) and welsh (90%) have the most R1b. Northern Spain's indigenous Basque people also have astronomical R1b levels (90%).

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    R1b in west Europe is just about 100% undersubclades R1b L51 and R1b L11. They were almost defintley spread by Germanic Italo Celtic speakers starting 5,000ybp. Click here it gives a pretty good explination about the history of R1b in west Europe. Italic languages go back to the same family as Celtic languages and it is called Italo Celtic. The Italo Celtic subclade of R1b L11 is R1b L312/S116. Italic's migrated to Italy from the Alps and central Europe about 3,200-3,000ybp they were apart of Urnfield culture which later formed into Villnoeaven culture while it was in Italy. Urnfieild culture also gave birth to Hallstat then La Tene Celtic cultures in central Europe. Both Hallstatt-La Tene Celts and Italics were heavily R1b S28/U152 which is a subclade of R1b P312/S116. So If there is Italian R1b in Cyprus i would except R1b S28/U152. R1b M269 is almost defintley from the mid east not anywhere in west Europe. There is also mid eastern R1b M269 and other older mid eastern R1b subclades in Italy mainly southern Italy because of contact with mid eastern people around the Mediterranean in Greco Roman times so i guess there is a possibility it is Italian. The names u are giving to R1b are the old names it is not R1b1b anymore it is R1b1a the thing that never changes is the numbers and letter they put after that like P312 and U152. If there were Italians that went to Cypurs in the 1500's they defintley have some descendants.
    You are wrong.

    R-M269 is the most common European haplogroup
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M269





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