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Thread: New map of East Asian autosomal admixtures in Europe and the Middle East

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    1 members found this post helpful.

    Arrow New map of East Asian autosomal admixtures in Europe and the Middle East

    It's been a few years since the Dodecad's K=12 admixtures were calculated. But I never got round to make the East Asian admixture map. It is now done. It combines the values for Northeast Asian and Southeast Asian.

    Last edited by Maciamo; 25-08-13 at 14:45.
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    Interesting map.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It's been a few years since the Dodecad's K=12 admixtures were calculated. But I never got round to make the East Asian admixture map. It is now done. It combines the values for Northeast Asian and Southeast Asian.

    Very intersting map, but im suprised at the lack of East Asian in Baltic countries and Northwestern Russia.

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    Very interesting indeed. I am surprised by the extremely low east Asian admixture in Greece and so high in Turkey.

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    Thank you for the map.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silkyslovanbojkovsky View Post
    Very intersting map, but im suprised at the lack of East Asian in Baltic countries and Northwestern Russia.
    Exactly! This means that Baltic and Northwestern Russian Y-DNA haplogroup N1c1 is part of East (northern) European component!

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    Hallo evrybody!
    This is my first post on forum.
    Maciamo, I am curious what ethnic group is carrying this over 15% admixture near Ural mountains? Are they Udmurts, Bashkirs or Tatars?
    Near Caspian Sea there should be Kalmyk and Kazakhs, they rarher has high admixture.

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    Why did you dye Western Turkey brighter than Central Turkey? It must be actually the opposite

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexandros View Post
    Very interesting indeed. I am surprised by the extremely low east Asian admixture in Greece and so high in Turkey.
    Because map shows also North East Asian admixture, and I believe it is the Turkic one, and as we know they've settled in Anatolia not in Greece. It looks like "Turkic" component didn't affect much of Balkans under Ottomans.


    I believe this NE SE Asian component had spread fairly late in history. Mostly between 300-1300 AD. Big migrations at the end of Roman Empire with all Hunnic tribes and culminating with Mongols and Tatars. It ended with rise of Russian Empire conquering north and central Asia, the new IE expansion to the East.



    PS. Welcome to Eupedia matbir and Sky earth.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matbir View Post
    Hallo evrybody!
    This is my first post on forum.
    Maciamo, I am curious what ethnic group is carrying this over 15% admixture near Ural mountains? Are they Udmurts, Bashkirs or Tatars?
    Near Caspian Sea there should be Kalmyk and Kazakhs, they rarher has high admixture.
    Tatars are genetically European with some Mongoloid admixture but I think that Maciamo has colored the place in Russia where the Chuvashs live. They are also Turkic with 20-25 % Mongoloid admixture

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    Quote Originally Posted by matbir View Post
    Hallo evrybody!
    This is my first post on forum.
    Maciamo, I am curious what ethnic group is carrying this over 15% admixture near Ural mountains? Are they Udmurts, Bashkirs or Tatars?
    What about Volga Bulgars?


    https://www.google.ca/search?q=volga...bs%3B800%3B584

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sky earth View Post
    Tatars are genetically European with some Mongoloid admixture
    They are heavily mixed now, but who knows how they looked when they arrived the first time.
    I don't remember, did they arrive before Mongols or with Mongols?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    They are heavily mixed now, but who knows how they looked when they arrived the first time.
    I don't remember, did they arrive before Mongols or with Mongols?
    Tatars were definitely in Volga Bulgaria before the Mongols. The ethnonym "Tatar" is totally false for them because they are actually Volga Bulgars who speak a Kipchak language through the influence of the Golden Horde. The only REAL Bulgars today are the Chuvashs who speak the same language like their ancestors today. Chuvashs and "Volga Tatars" spoke both Bulgar languages until the Tatars adopted a Kipchak language. It was the Russians who gave them the ethnonym "Tatar" but the Volga Bulgars never called themselves so. The Bulgarians in Bulgaria are linguistically South Slavic today but they still carry a Turkic ethnonym.

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    Chuvashs are believed to be descendants of Volga Bulgars. But the first Turkic people in Europe were rather Iranianians who adapt Turkic language. Sky earth, wow do you know that chuvashs are so heavy on East Asian admixture? I would rather thing that Tatars are having some East Asian admixture. "Tatar" is name of one of the medieval Mongol tribes, which was conquered by Genghis Khan and somehow ended up in Eastern Europe during Mongol invasion. Somehow the name was transferred from Mongols to Turkic speaking group.
    Udmurts have about 20% of East Asian mtDNA, so this area on the map could be about them. Rest of Volga Finnic people are rather lower then 10%.

    One more thing about Chuvashs, they belong to Oghur group of Turkic languages, and they are heavily influenced by Uralic languages.

    LeBrok, some of this East Asian component spread out after Hunnic invasion, but in case of northeastern Europe I would thing that it is of Paleolithic origin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silkyslovanbojkovsky View Post
    Very intersting map, but im suprised at the lack of East Asian in Baltic countries and Northwestern Russia.
    What is high in certain parts of Europe is not "East Asian", but Siberian:

    In K=12b run: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...hl=en_US#gid=0

    Finland: 6.7 Siberian

    Mixed Slavs: 1.5 Siberian (and .4 East Asian)

    Russian: There are three populations, ranging from 7.3 to 3 for Siberian, and .8 to 1.1 for East Asian

    Of course, these calculators don't reflect the underlying North Eurasian in any Europeans, a la all the Reich group papers such as Lipson et al.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matbir View Post
    Chuvashs are believed to be descendants of Volga Bulgars. But the first Turkic people in Europe were rather Iranianians who adapt Turkic language. Sky earth, wow do you know that chuvashs are so heavy on East Asian admixture? I would rather thing that Tatars are having some East Asian admixture. "Tatar" is name of one of the medieval Mongol tribes, which was conquered by Genghis Khan and somehow ended up in Eastern Europe during Mongol invasion. Somehow the name was transferred from Mongols to Turkic speaking group.
    Udmurts have about 20% of East Asian mtDNA, so this area on the map could be about them. Rest of Volga Finnic people are rather lower then 10%.

    One more thing about Chuvashs, they belong to Oghur group of Turkic languages, and they are heavily influenced by Uralic languages.

    LeBrok, some of this East Asian component spread out after Hunnic invasion, but in case of northeastern Europe I would thing that it is of Paleolithic origin.
    I can't post any links know but I'm definitely sure that Chuvashs have 20-25 % Mongoloid admxiture while I think that Tatars have 10-15% Mongoloid admxiture. Based on the pictures I've seen Tatars look mainly like Russians and Volga Finns with a more Mongoloid and Western Asian apperance.

    What do you mean with "The first Turkics were Iranians who adopted a Turkic language"? Do you think that Bulgars were originally Iranic?

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    Somehow I can't reproduce the map using the K12b table. Looks like it is Northeast Asian + Siberian? Else it would not match for Finland. Or has the scale too high numbers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexandros View Post
    Very interesting indeed. I am surprised by the extremely low east Asian admixture in Greece and so high in Turkey.
    Why would you find that surprising? Seems pretty logical. The Turkic tribes didn't settle in Greece, and by the time they conquered them, they were already heavily mixed with native Anatolian people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sky earth View Post
    What do you mean with "The first Turkics were Iranians who adopted a Turkic language"? Do you think that Bulgars were originally Iranic?
    Indo-European expansion to the steps reached Sayan, Altai Mountains and Tarim Basin. Scythians and Sarmatians were Iranic, and many other related to them tribes lived in central Asia. After Hunnic invasion every next tribe entering the Europe from the east was Turkic speaking. But the most interesting thing is that they were not mongoloid, they ware fair haired and light skinned, that means not much of East Asian blood. Example: Slavs used term "Połowcy" for Cumans what probably refer to their appearance and mean blond haired. They probably had a lot R1a hp. that is why there is not strong genetic sign of Turkic colonization of Pannonia and Balkans. First people who had considerable mongoloid admixture were Tatar and Nogay who settled in Pontic steps during Mongol invasion. But still they had mixed European and Asian ancestry.
    So in my opinion many Iranic (certainly Indo-European) tribes of Central Asia in early medieval period adapt Turkic languages without considerable genetic admixture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matbir View Post
    Indo-European expansion to the steps reached Sayan, Altai Mountains and Tarim Basin. Scythians and Sarmatians were Iranic, and many other related to them tribes lived in central Asia. After Hunnic invasion every next tribe entering the Europe from the east was Turkic speaking. But the most interesting thing is that they were not mongoloid, they ware fair haired and light skinned, that means not much of East Asian blood. Example: Slavs used term "Połowcy" for Cumans what probably refer to their appearance and mean blond haired. They probably had a lot R1a hp. that is why there is not strong genetic sign of Turkic colonization of Pannonia and Balkans. First people who had considerable mongoloid admixture were Tatar and Nogay who settled in Pontic steps during Mongol invasion. But still they had mixed European and Asian ancestry.
    So in my opinion many Iranic (certainly Indo-European) tribes of Central Asia in early medieval period adapt Turkic languages without considerable genetic admixture.
    There is no genetical proof for it that the Proto-Turks were only Mongoloid. Proto-Turks were probably a mixture between Caucasoids and Mongoloids from day one. Even the third Qaghan of the Gökturks Muqan Khan was described with reddish hair and blue eyes. It's not true that the Kipchaks were only Caucasoid as they had also significant Mongoloid admxiture. A genetic mtDNA study was done on Cuman burials within Hungary and it was determined that they had both Western Eurasian and Eastern Eurasian Haplogroups. Six Haplogroups were revelaed. One of these Haplogroups was of Eastern Eurasian origin (Haplogroup D) while the other Haplogroups were of Western Eurasian origin (Haplogroups H, V, U, U3 and JT). This means that Cumans were mixed and not only Caucasoid. They have also done anthropometric analysis on the Cuman burials and five of the six skeletons appeared Asian rather than European.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Exactly! This means that Baltic and Northwestern Russian Y-DNA haplogroup N1c1 is part of East (northern) European component!
    Yes that explains a lot. I always thought that Finnish people and Estonian and other balitc people look clearly European, but when I first started reading articles about genetics and saw how much N1c1 they had I was pretty shocked, but in reality my instincts were right, they only have minimal Asian admixture, especially most of the balitc people who have nothing, I do see a hint of Asian to finns though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    What is high in certain parts of Europe is not "East Asian", but Siberian:

    In K=12b run: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...hl=en_US#gid=0

    Finland: 6.7 Siberian

    Mixed Slavs: 1.5 Siberian (and .4 East Asian)

    Russian: There are three populations, ranging from 7.3 to 3 for Siberian, and .8 to 1.1 for East Asian

    Of course, these calculators don't reflect the underlying North Eurasian in any Europeans, a la all the Reich group papers such as Lipson et al.
    yes but Siberian is related to East Asian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexandros View Post
    Very interesting indeed. I am surprised by the extremely low east Asian admixture in Greece and so high in Turkey.
    Why would that be surprising? Greeks arnt turks and didn't receive Asian admixture neither from the ottomans or the original turks who never went there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sky earth View Post
    There is no genetical proof for it that the Proto-Turks were only Mongoloid. Proto-Turks were probably a mixture between Caucasoids and Mongoloids from day one. Even the third Qaghan of the Gökturks Muqan Khan was described with reddish hair and blue eyes. It's not true that the Kipchaks were only Caucasoid as they had also significant Mongoloid admxiture. A genetic mtDNA study was done on Cuman burials within Hungary and it was determined that they had both Western Eurasian and Eastern Eurasian Haplogroups. Six Haplogroups were revelaed. One of these Haplogroups was of Eastern Eurasian origin (Haplogroup D) while the other Haplogroups were of Western Eurasian origin (Haplogroups H, V, U, U3 and JT). This means that Cumans were mixed and not only Caucasoid. They have also done anthropometric analysis on the Cuman burials and five of the six skeletons appeared Asian rather than European.
    1. Indirectly you can proof that they were predominantly mongoloids. Let’s try, Gagauzes, Anatolian Turks, Chuvashs, Azerbaijani - western Eurasian. Turkmens, Uzbeks and Uyghurs mixed. Kazakhs and Kirgiz clearly are mongoloid with little European admixture. Tuvans, Yakuts and eastern Kazakhs are mongoloids. Only the last three are leaving in areas where Indo-Europeans didn’t. It is convincing me that proto-Turks were chiefly East Asian like looking. Of course the situation could be more complex, some groups could be mixed enyough to have some European features.
    2. One of six is not much, however they had East Asian admixture, but I thing it wasn't considerable one. That is because of such a low East Asian admixture in southeast Europe reaching 2,5% while in this area settled Huns, Avars, Bulgars, Khazars, Pechenegs, Cumans, and Tatars.
    3. There is some hypothesis that Bulgar could be descendents of Iranic speaking tribe from Pamir.


    Edit: Interesting thing about Crimean Tatars is that they resemble rather Persians then Turkmens, mongoloid features are rare among them, which might be connection to Iranic Khwarezmians.

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    It concurs with my observations in Balkans and West Anatolia.

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