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Thread: Haplogroup I1 in Herzegovinians, Montenegrins and Kosovar Albanians

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    Haplogroup I1 in Herzegovinians, Montenegrins and Kosovar Albanians

    I think that the new map of the distribution of haplogroup I1 in Europe should be changed a little bit. According to the genetic studies of Oxford Journals, Molecular Biology and Evolution High-Resolution Phylogenetic Analysis of Southeastern Europe Traces Major Episodes of Paternal Gene Flow Among Slavic Populations", Herzegovinians have 5% of haplogroup I1. Kosovar Albanians have 5,3% and according to (Mirabal et al, 2010) the population of Montenegro is 6,2% of Y-DNA haplogroup I1.

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    Where did you find out Herzegovians have so much I1?

    Bosniaks only have


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    In the Balkans I1 seems greatest in Serbia:
    Mirabal et al. (2010), I1=7,8%
    Regueiro et al. (2012), I1=7,8%.

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    Eldritch: Check out the links in my first post. Yes Bosniaks have according to Marjanovic between 4-5% of haplogroup I1, but Herzegovinians in general - which is an regional, and not ethnic term, have 5%, according to the studies of Oxford Journals.

    Garrick: It should be uppdated in "European Y-DNA frequences by country". Maciamo, where are you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kotroman View Post
    Garrick: It should be uppdated in "European Y-DNA frequences by country". Maciamo, where are you?
    Yes, I sent to Maciamo the data of study of Regueiro et al. This study brought together data from all previous relevant studies from the Balkans and beyond.

    MDS scaling that authors performed is very interesting. Croats and Slovenes are very close and they are closed to Ukrainians. On the other hands Serbs and Upper Macedonians (Macedonians from former Yugoslav Republic, not Aegean Macedonians) are very close. They are between Greeks and Tosk Albanians (who are close with non Balkans peoples Tajikistanis and Anatolians) and Bosniacs (who are specific and distant from the other, the closest Serbs and Upper Macedonians. Geg (Kosovo) Albanians are far and close to North East Africans (who have not shown) and Lebanese.

    Slovenes and Croats are closest Slavs. On the other hand Serbs and Upper Macedonians, and slightly less Bosniacs are more Balkans. It is not surprise for me, I knew that Serbs and Upper Macedonians are closest because they are are in the center of Balkans and carriers of the same haplogroups followed natural and logical way Vardar-Morava-Danube. I supposed that Bosniacs can not be too far from the Serbs and Upper Macedonians, but they are specific. Because of natural terrain was less interference among the Bosniacs with carriers haplogroups from the South, and from the North. For me is little surprise that Slovenes and Croats are so close, because of impact on Croats by Serbs and Bosniacs, maybe it is because Croats are the most densely settled near the Slovenian border.

    It is clear that Ukrainians are mostly associated with Southern Slavs (so it was assumed most, especially with the Slovenes and Croats), but there are opinions that terms Southern Slavs is no appropriate given that more reflect the linguistic link and less origin. Of course it is debatable.

    rppScEb.jpg

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kotroman View Post
    I think that the new map of the distribution of haplogroup I1 in Europe should be changed a little bit. According to the genetic studies of Oxford Journals, Molecular Biology and Evolution High-Resolution Phylogenetic Analysis of Southeastern Europe Traces Major Episodes of Paternal Gene Flow Among Slavic Populations", Herzegovinians have 5% of haplogroup I1. Kosovar Albanians have 5,3% and according to (Mirabal et al, 2010) the population of Montenegro is 6,2% of Y-DNA haplogroup I1.
    I have added the data for Montenegro in the Y-DNA tables and updated the I1 map.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Yes, I sent to Maciamo the data of study of Regueiro et al. This study brought together data from all previous relevant studies from the Balkans and beyond.

    MDS scaling that authors performed is very interesting. Croats and Slovenes are very close and they are closed to Ukrainians. On the other hands Serbs and Upper Macedonians (Macedonians from former Yugoslav Republic, not Aegean Macedonians) are very close. They are between Greeks and Tosk Albanians (who are close with non Balkans peoples Tajikistanis and Anatolians) and Bosniacs (who are specific and distant from the other, the closest Serbs and Upper Macedonians. Geg (Kosovo) Albanians are far and close to North East Africans (who have not shown) and Lebanese.

    Slovenes and Croats are closest Slavs. On the other hand Serbs and Upper Macedonians, and slightly less Bosniacs are more Balkans. It is not surprise for me, I knew that Serbs and Upper Macedonians are closest because they are are in the center of Balkans and carriers of the same haplogroups followed natural and logical way Vardar-Morava-Danube. I supposed that Bosniacs can not be too far from the Serbs and Upper Macedonians, but they are specific. Because of natural terrain was less interference among the Bosniacs with carriers haplogroups from the South, and from the North. For me is little surprise that Slovenes and Croats are so close, because of impact on Croats by Serbs and Bosniacs, maybe it is because Croats are the most densely settled near the Slovenian border.

    It is clear that Ukrainians are mostly associated with Southern Slavs (so it was assumed most, especially with the Slovenes and Croats), but there are opinions that terms Southern Slavs is no appropriate given that more reflect the linguistic link and less origin. Of course it is debatable.

    rppScEb.jpg
    how are gheg kosovoar Albanians close to north east Africa? If you mean e- v13 it highest is amoungs Albanians and Greek.

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    That map hardly makes any sense what so ever.

    This makes much more sense


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    Quote Originally Posted by Luan View Post
    how are gheg kosovoar Albanians close to north east Africa? If you mean e- v13 it highest is amoungs Albanians and Greek.
    There is the study:
    Gianmarco Ferri et al. (2010), Y-STR Variations in Albanian population

    Gheg = Geg Albanians
    Tosk = Tosk Albanians

    You can see that Geg Albanians are the closest Egyptians (and slightly less Algerians) compared to all other European population.

    WvvUI5C.jpg

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    That's a map based on Y-DNA frequencies besides that the difference is so great that it's not worth mentioning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldritch View Post
    That map hardly makes any sense what so ever.

    This makes much more sense
    The study of Regueiro et al. is new, from 2012. The authors have taken the entire population, they did not split Croats by regions. They have taken previous studies. And you can see MDS scaling similar results in a previous post, G. Ferri et al. (2010). Again Serbs, Upper Macedonians, Bosniacs, here and Romanians, Greeks and Tosk Albanians (Balkans population) are relatively close. But Croats are quite far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    There is the study:
    Gianmarco Ferri et al. (2010), Y-STR Variations in Albanian population

    Gheg = Geg Albanians
    Tosk = Tosk Albanians

    You can see that Geg Albanians are the closest Egyptians (and slightly less Algerians) compared to all other European population.

    WvvUI5C.jpg
    what y-str of gheg Albanian would make them close to Egypt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldritch View Post
    That's a map based on Y-DNA frequencies besides that the difference is so great that it's not worth mentioning.
    It is a science. Scientists can do MDS analysis, and they do. And you can see that Croats and Slovenes are close to Ukrainians, not Indians or Chinese. Or Poles and Slovaks are close to each other and far from Lebanese or Syrians. Of course, when scientists has more samples results will be more precise. Maybe, one day every man will have yDNA haplogroup (and woman mtDNA) as part of personal document. Then it will be a paradise for science.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Luan View Post
    what y-str of gheg Albanian would make them close to Egypt.
    They have common E-M78 origin. Geg Albanians have the highest rates E-V13 in the Balkans (almost 50% in the Kosovo). You can see that in Egypt there are E-V13 carriers, also Albanians have other E subclades (for example Noveski et al. find E-M34 and E-M81 among Macedonian Albanians). E-M78 origin is indisputable, what scientists debate is the time when subclades separated and when E-V13 and other E branches came to the Balkans.

    This topic is very good. All we write this in order to grasp the movement of I1 in the Balkans. I assumed that I1 is stable in the Balkans and it should be more or less present in all (or most) populations. We don't know how and when I1 came to the Balkans but it can be older than some members of the forum mentioned movements of tribes from 3rd to 5th century. In Serbia according to Regueiro et a. (2012) I1 is 7,8%, from that I1-P109 is 4,9%.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Yes, I sent to Maciamo the data of study of Regueiro et al. This study brought together data from all previous relevant studies from the Balkans and beyond.

    MDS scaling that authors performed is very interesting. Croats and Slovenes are very close and they are closed to Ukrainians. On the other hands Serbs and Upper Macedonians (Macedonians from former Yugoslav Republic, not Aegean Macedonians) are very close. They are between Greeks and Tosk Albanians (who are close with non Balkans peoples Tajikistanis and Anatolians) and Bosniacs (who are specific and distant from the other, the closest Serbs and Upper Macedonians. Geg (Kosovo) Albanians are far and close to North East Africans (who have not shown) and Lebanese.

    Slovenes and Croats are closest Slavs. On the other hand Serbs and Upper Macedonians, and slightly less Bosniacs are more Balkans. It is not surprise for me, I knew that Serbs and Upper Macedonians are closest because they are are in the center of Balkans and carriers of the same haplogroups followed natural and logical way Vardar-Morava-Danube. I supposed that Bosniacs can not be too far from the Serbs and Upper Macedonians, but they are specific. Because of natural terrain was less interference among the Bosniacs with carriers haplogroups from the South, and from the North. For me is little surprise that Slovenes and Croats are so close, because of impact on Croats by Serbs and Bosniacs, maybe it is because Croats are the most densely settled near the Slovenian border.

    It is clear that Ukrainians are mostly associated with Southern Slavs (so it was assumed most, especially with the Slovenes and Croats), but there are opinions that terms Southern Slavs is no appropriate given that more reflect the linguistic link and less origin. Of course it is debatable.

    rppScEb.jpg
    Well, the most interesting of all is this huge percentage of haplogroup I1 among the population in Serbia. Are they descendants of Visgoths, Ostrogoths and Gepids who settled the area during the migration period or could their ancestry be traced back to the Sarmato-Slavic tribe of Serboi who later settled the Balkans in 7th century and prior to that mixed with the Germanic population (mainly Goths and Longobards) at the area of nowdays Ukraine or/and White Serbia (nowdays Poland and Czech Republic)? The percentage of haplogroup I1 is in Serbia much bigger then in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina, even if those countries were part of the Ostrogothic kingdom during the reign of Theodorik the Great (493-540). Serbia never maked part of the Ostrogothic state (in addition to Srem or Syrmium). I Think that the majority of the Gothic population at the area of nowdays Serbia actually later settled the area west of the Danube and Drina river, which was stated by the historian Gregor Cremosnik in his work "Oko bogumilstva u srednjovjekovnoj Bosni" in 1937, which would be more logical if we assume the religious intolerance that affected on the Arian Goths in both the Western and Eastern Roman empire, after the First Council of Nicea in 325, and the anti-Arian policy that fallowed in centuries. So, according to my calculations I would rather prefer to link this huge percentage of the haplogroup I1 in Serbia to the Slavic Serbian settlers, who mixed with the Germanic population in their homeland North of the Danube river, rather to the, in a certain extent, the indigenous Gothic population in Balkans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have added the data for Montenegro in the Y-DNA tables and updated the I1 map.
    Thank you! :)

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    I1 in Serbia is overall 6.2 %


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    Does anyone know anything about the haplogroups of the Montenegrin highland clans? I know that the Kuci, Bojovici and Vasojevici (and their Muslim descandants Djukici) are E1b1b, and Petrovici, Bjelopavlici and Piperi are I2. Also, the Muslim Montenegrin clan Vrucak from area of Kolasin (probably identified as Bosniaks today) are of haplogroup I1d1. But how is it with Moracani, Rovcani, Bratonozici, Scepanovici and Drobnjaci? I am 1/4 of Muslim Rovcanin ancestry, even if the majority of Rovcanin clan is even today of the Orthodox Christian faith. I know that they are closely related to Bulatovici, Scepanovici and Moracani. Is there any Montenegrin in here? Come on Sokole, say something, if you know!

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    I1a is barely present in Serbia, although I2 isa major hg and some R1a and E3b in the mix as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    They have common E-M78 origin. Geg Albanians have the highest rates E-V13 in the Balkans (almost 50% in the Kosovo). You can see that in Egypt there are E-V13 carriers, also Albanians have other E subclades (for example Noveski et al. find E-M34 and E-M81 among Macedonian Albanians). E-M78 origin is indisputable, what scientists debate is the time when subclades separated and when E-V13 and other E branches came to the Balkans.

    This topic is very good. All we write this in order to grasp the movement of I1 in the Balkans. I assumed that I1 is stable in the Balkans and it should be more or less present in all (or most) populations. We don't know how and when I1 came to the Balkans but it can be older than some members of the forum mentioned movements of tribes from 3rd to 5th century. In Serbia according to Regueiro et a. (2012) I1 is 7,8%, from that I1-P109 is 4,9%.
    E-V13 is only 1% in Egypt how does that make Albanians close to Egypt. Its Funny that E-V13 is the highest amongst Greeks with like 45% but they are not y-STR close with Egypt but Albanians are. And E-V13 is 20% in serbia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Luan View Post
    E-V13 is only 1% in Egypt how does that make Albanians close to Egypt. Its Funny that E-V13 is the highest amongst Greeks with like 45% but they are not y-STR close with Egypt but Albanians are. And E-V13 is 20% in serbia.
    Science has clarified a lot of things, I don’t know what confuse you. E-V12, E-V13 and E-V22 has common origin, it is E-M78. You can see for example Cruciani et al. (2007) or here in Eupedia:
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...1b_Y-DNA.shtml

    Key question is origin of E-M78. Cruciani et al. (2007) write:

    “In conclusion, the peripheral geographic distribution of the most derived subhaplogroups with respect to northeastern Africa, as well as the results of quantitative analysis of UEP and microsatellite diversity are strongly suggestive of a northeastern rather than an eastern African origin of E-M78. Northeastern Africa thus seems to be the place from where E-M78 chromosomes started to disperse to other African regions and outside Africa.“

    So northeastern Africa, probably Egypt, is possible place of origin of haplogroup E-M78. It is spread from northeastern Africa (probably Egypt) in the northwestern Africa, the Middle East and the Balkans and south Europe. Over time, from this haplogroup originated its subclades.

    E-V13 is one of the subclades haplogroup E-M78. It is widespread in the Balkans, among the Greeks, Tosk Albanians, Bulgarians, Macedonians (Upper Macedonians, former Yugoslav republic), Serbs, Bosniacs, Romanians etc. It is also present in other parts of southern Europe, mostly in southern Italy. Its maximum E-V13 reaches among Geg Albanians, mostly in Kosovo (almost 50%).

    You can see MDS scaling according Gianmarco Ferri et al. (2010), post 9 in this topic, Geg Albanians are the closest to Egyptians, and after them, Calabrians (southern Italy). My thinking is that Alexander the Great is possible was carrier of E-V13 haplogroup, but it is not this topic.

    We are trying to determine the movements of different populations here, in order to find the movements of the carriers I1 haplogroup, which is quite stable (although not in a large percentages), among the Balkan population throughout the peninsula.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kotroman View Post
    Well, the most interesting of all is this huge percentage of haplogroup I1 among the population in Serbia. Are they descendants of Visgoths, Ostrogoths and Gepids who settled the area during the migration period or could their ancestry be traced back to the Sarmato-Slavic tribe of Serboi who later settled the Balkans in 7th century and prior to that mixed with the Germanic population (mainly Goths and Longobards) at the area of nowdays Ukraine or/and White Serbia (nowdays Poland and Czech Republic)? The percentage of haplogroup I1 is in Serbia much bigger then in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina, even if those countries were part of the Ostrogothic kingdom during the reign of Theodorik the Great (493-540). Serbia never maked part of the Ostrogothic state (in addition to Srem or Syrmium). I Think that the majority of the Gothic population at the area of nowdays Serbia actually later settled the area west of the Danube and Drina river, which was stated by the historian Gregor Cremosnik in his work "Oko bogumilstva u srednjovjekovnoj Bosni" in 1937, which would be more logical if we assume the religious intolerance that affected on the Arian Goths in both the Western and Eastern Roman empire, after the First Council of Nicea in 325, and the anti-Arian policy that fallowed in centuries. So, according to my calculations I would rather prefer to link this huge percentage of the haplogroup I1 in Serbia to the Slavic Serbian settlers, who mixed with the Germanic population in their homeland North of the Danube river, rather to the, in a certain extent, the indigenous Gothic population in Balkans.
    I think that we think too much about the movements of tribes and peoples in the period after AD. This is understandable, because some of things we know better, which is something older is less well known, and we think that has less to do with today.

    However, scientific studies disprove the general opinions. Thus, according Regueiro et al. (2012) the oldest groups in the Balkans among today’s population is R1a. Authors write that the ancestor R1a in the Balkan existed in Paleolithic (quote):

    "The relatively old expansion time (14.0±3.3 KYA) (Supplementary Table 3), associated mean variance (0.384) and high haplotype diversity (0.9905±0.0178) (Table 1), also evident in the phylogenetic network (Supplementary Fig. 1C), among Serbian R1a1a-M198 carriers, are consistent with previous studies (Peričić et al., 2005; Semino et al., 2000; Wells et al., 2001) that suggest that the common ancestor for all R1a1a-M198 individuals in the Balkans existed in Paleolithic times. "

    Why is it important to understand and for I1? Interestingly, I1 is stable in the Balkans in different parts, although Gothic tribes did not reach some areas. My opinion is that I1 in the Balkans is much older, and much before the Goths, Gepids, etc. not guesswork now with age.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Science has clarified a lot of things, I don’t know what confuse you. E-V12, E-V13 and E-V22 has common origin, it is E-M78. You can see for example Cruciani et al. (2007) or here in Eupedia:
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...1b_Y-DNA.shtml
    So based on the map The high percent of E1b1b on north Albanian are the closest to Egypt and the same amount E1b1b of south Greeks peloponnese are not. or did farri forgot to mention that or south of Serbia which look about the same as Calabrians (southern Italy) based on the map at Eupedia.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Luan View Post
    So based on the map The high percent of E1b1b on north Albanian are the closest to Egypt and the same amount E1b1b of south Greeks peloponnese are not. or did farri forgot to mention that or south of Serbia which look about the same as Calabrians (southern Italy) based on the map at Eupedia.
    I don’t know what bothers you? Maybe, the difference between Tosk and Geg (or Gheg) Albanians? Yes, the difference is evident. Tosk Albanians share some common Balkan mix while Geg Albanians are separated from typical Balkan populations and close to Egyptians, Lebanese, etc. Perhaps the explanation is that they lived more isolated (high mountains).

    We speak here about movements well before the appearance of the nations. The carriers of haplogroups did not have a clue about today’s nations and borders of countries. Specifically on this topic we trying to determine I1 in the Balkans, when and how I1 came, who were the bearers of this haplogroup and like.

    In the regards of research by Ferri et al., for Greece you are probably right, researchers have observed the Greeks as a whole. You can see differences among Greeks, Italians, Spaniards, etc. by regions in the table given by Maciamo.

    We can see for Serbia. Maps are always simplified and present interpolations, not the real situation. It is difficult to construct accurate maps without more samples of different regions. So, map about you are talking may not be accurate. It is possible that eastern Serbia has less E1b1b (E-V13) than Belgrade (and Shumadia). According Pericic et al. E1b1b haplogroup in Serbia is 20,4%, but they collected data only in Belgrade. More realistic are studies that were conducted by American researchers Mirabal and Regueiro. According to Mirabal et al. E1b1b in Serbia is 17%, and Regueiro et al. find 18,5%, somewhat less in Serbia than only in capital (Belgrade).

    And this can be explained, if Serbian tribes from Montenegro had significant share E1b1b how Kotroman claims, then it is logical that the share of E1b1b be greatest in Belgrade and Shumadia, since these tribes inhabited these regions. I suppose that the part E1b1b among the Serbs came from Thracians assuming that the Thracians were the bearers of this haploghroup. And in other ways. Populations who are South Slavic, as Slovenes, have little E1b1b (for Slovenes share of this haplogroup is 3%).

    What is interesting for Geg Albanians? Very small proportion of I2a2. Somebody can see that Greeks have 9,5% I2a2 (according the data of Maciamo), from that north Greeks have 16%. Tosk Albanians have over 20%, in this table that gives Maciamo for Albania data are common for Geg and Tosk Albanians (I2a2 is 12%). For other Balkan peoples (the data of Maciamo): Serbs 34,5%, (Upper) Macedonians 27%, Bosniacs 50%, Romanians 26%, Bulgarians 19,5%. But Geg Albanians? According Pericic et al. I2a2 among Kosovo (Geg) Albanians is only 2,65%, according Noveski et al. I2a2 among Albanians in Macedonia (same dominant Geg) is only 1,8%.

    Geg Albanians are different from other Balkans population. I’m interested that you tell whether Arbereshe who emigrated to Calabria and Apulia are Tosk or Geg Albanians?

    But we write this to investigate movements of I1. This our discussion is carried out an important conclusion. As I think that I1 can’t only connect with Goths, Gepids and similar tribes, I also think that the roads of I2a2 and I1 carriers are not linked. But about this I will discuss with Kotroman since he had another assumption. This might be interesting for you, as, among other things, and Geg Albanians give me material for another interpretation compared with the assumption of Kotroman.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kotroman View Post
    Well, the most interesting of all is this huge percentage of haplogroup I1 among the population in Serbia. Are they descendants of Visgoths, Ostrogoths and Gepids who settled the area during the migration period or could their ancestry be traced back to the Sarmato-Slavic tribe of Serboi who later settled the Balkans in 7th century and prior to that mixed with the Germanic population (mainly Goths and Longobards) at the area of nowdays Ukraine or/and White Serbia (nowdays Poland and Czech Republic)? The percentage of haplogroup I1 is in Serbia much bigger then in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina, even if those countries were part of the Ostrogothic kingdom during the reign of Theodorik the Great (493-540). Serbia never maked part of the Ostrogothic state (in addition to Srem or Syrmium). I Think that the majority of the Gothic population at the area of nowdays Serbia actually later settled the area west of the Danube and Drina river, which was stated by the historian Gregor Cremosnik in his work "Oko bogumilstva u srednjovjekovnoj Bosni" in 1937, which would be more logical if we assume the religious intolerance that affected on the Arian Goths in both the Western and Eastern Roman empire, after the First Council of Nicea in 325, and the anti-Arian policy that fallowed in centuries. So, according to my calculations I would rather prefer to link this huge percentage of the haplogroup I1 in Serbia to the Slavic Serbian settlers, who mixed with the Germanic population in their homeland North of the Danube river, rather to the, in a certain extent, the indigenous Gothic population in Balkans.
    This discussion with Luan was not excess. It is an introduction to what I identified the following (all data from Maciamo):
    Serbia, I1 = 6.5%, I2a = 34.5%
    Macedonia (FYROM), I1=3%, I2a=27%
    Bosnia, I1= 2.5%, I2a = 50%
    Romania, I1=2%, I2a=26%
    Greece, I1=3,5%, I2a=16%
    Croatia, I1=5,5%, I2a=37%
    Bulgaria, I1=4,5%, I2a=19,5%.

    (We will not enter here if the data is updated by countries and that I1 percents are somewhere higher).

    Somebody can see that among the greater I2a populations there are I1 haplogroup carriers to a lesser extent. Therefore your assumption about mix Slavic and German population in their homeland north of Danube River, and their arrival in the Balkans in the form of Slavic tribes, maybe it makes sense.

    For Albania Maciamo gave common data for Tosk and Geg Albanians. I didn’t give Maciamo’s data for Albania because Tosk Albanians are similar to other (less percentage of I1 and much higher percentage of I2a).

    But, the view on Geg Albanians refutes this assumption. Geg Albanians have similar percentages of I1 as other peoples mentioned above, but they have a small percentage of I2a.

    Geg Albanians in Kosovo (Pericic et al.), I1=5,31%, I2a=2,65%
    Geg Albanians in Macedonia (Noveski et al), I1=6,3%, I2a=1,8%.

    It is impossible to be this ratio of percentages in one Balkan population that your assumption is correct. Someone maybe can theorize about origin of Geg Albanians, but I would not speculate it.

    I have another explanation. Carriers of I1 in the Balkans have been much earlier. They were distributed throughout the Balkans, possible highest along the direction of Danube, Morava, Vardar. It would be good if someone could find analyses of estimates of how I1 in the Balkans can be old.

    We can see Regueiro et al. claim that R1a in the Balkans is Paleolithic (even before 20,000 according to the maximum estimate), and I2a2 in the Balkans is about 9,000 years ago. Further studies are certainly needed.

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