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Thread: J2 Civilisations and Bull Worship

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    As we know original proto-Celtic R1b lived not far from J2a in West Asia, and maybe even together with J2a in Southern Caucasus since we have got different lineages of J2a in Europe from different eras. I'm sure West European R1b got Centum Indo-Europeanized in West Asia, When R1b migrated from West Asia into Europe, R1b was already Centum Indo-European.

    There’s a lot WestAsian J2a in Indus Valley and Central Asia, much more than in inland of Indian sub continent.

    R1a-Z93 was is/was native to the Iranian Plateau, Central Asia etc. for a very long time. BEFORE the arrival of J2a!!!
    But there doesn't seem to be any j2a component in celts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noman View Post
    The tribes that are called aryan today are r2. However they are probably not what is refered to, after all they talk about "aryans" in germany as well. Just like the romans called everyone celts for a while, too. Just kind of blanket terms.

    And I don't htink you can say the cattle worshipping preceeded them. That's just the furthers back we have found them in that area. Since cattle worship worms all through the IE migrating people I don't think you can separate the two without some serious evidence.
    Aryan = different name for Iranian. According to the Histories of Herodotus: " The Medes were called anciently by all people Aryans ". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medes

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noman View Post
    But there doesn't seem to be any j2a component in celts.
    There's a lot J2a in Ukraine and Central Europe. It is possible that Proto-Celts that migrated out of West Asia first settled down in Central-East Europe. From that Central European region they (already evolved West European R1b Celts) invaded Western Europe.

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    Sacred Egyptian cows and bulls (Apis)

    "In Egyptian mythology, Apis or Hapis (alternatively spelled Hapi-ankh), is a bull-deity that was worshipped in the Memphis region."
    Apis
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apis_(god)


  5. #30
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    Just so you know I don't think r = all IE and is probably not origin of anything just spreader. But it seems more likely to be iran to me to originate it, though I guess that could be argued might have been mostly j2a at some point, I am not sure honestly.

    In my mind the Rs were HG who are now settled farmers and J2a were farmers much sooner and became mobile later but maybe I am sketchy on j2a facts.

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    R1b is a haplogroup of true warriors in the Western Europe, R1a is a haplogroups of warriors in the Eurasian steppes. But J2a is a haplogroup of (civilizations and) GODS!
    The original Jews belonged to J2a and were from Northern Mesopotamia. The name of their God, YAHWEH, is from Northern Mesopotamia. Abraham and Noah were from Mesopotamia. The Jewish Golden Calf and the coming of the Messiah!


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    J2 is found in 20% of Jews. It's also found in 15-30% of Syrians, 30% of Iraqis, Armenians, Iranians, Georgians,Turks,v35% of Lebanese, etc; it isn't only restricted to Jews in the Middle East; there are different Jewish and non-Jewish networks within J2; even some European and Indian ones. J2 has a high that covers everything from Israel and north-central Iraq in the south, to western iran and across the Caucasus, and onto the Anatolian peninsula and into the levant as well. What is known is that the Phoenicians of the levant, along with Anatolian groups, crossed into Europe and brought some of their J2 influence with them during the Neolithic period 10,000 years ago. From far, certain people classify these lineages as Assyrian/Mesopotamian; among the first successful middle eastern agriculturalists who would settle for thousands of years across Anatolia and the near east (the Fertile Crescent portion in particular.) During the Neolithic, prolonged prior agricultural success would propel the J2 lineage from turkey into a few rare parts of the Greek peninsula and the island of Crete. This would be the first steps of an upcoming Mediterranean dominance. Today, the highest J2 frequencies of all in Europe are in Crete, where 37% of men belong to J2 alone. Cyprus has very high levels as well (32-35%), which isn't surprising due to it's proximity to turkey/levant. Sicily has surprisingly high J2 values (30%) and southern Italy is close behind (20-25%). Overall, both Italy and Greece have about 20-25% J2 on a national level. These are by far the highest frequencies in Europe. Albania and Bulgaria have 10-15% as do Romania, Portugal and Spain.

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    J2a is the only 4th or 5th haplogroup among Assyrians. Assyrians belong mostly to R1b and J1 (+ E, T etc) Assyrians are descendants of Akkadians and some Semitic tribes frorm the Levant, while the original proto-Jews came from North ( Kurdish populated areas ) and belonged mostly to hg. J2a. This is what the Jewish/Israeli scientists are telling us. Later, Jews from north mixed with E & J1 folks in Israel (/ the Levant)! So, it's possible that the original J2a Jews were not Semitic speakers at all.


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    Part 2: the Golden Calf and the coming of their Jewish Messiah.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    There's a lot J2a in Ukraine and Central Europe. It is possible that Proto-Celts that migrated out of West Asia first settled down in Central-East Europe. From that Central European region they (already evolved West European R1b Celts) invaded Western Europe.
    Are you saying that Celts purposely left all J2a man in Ukraine when they left to the west? How did they know which one was J2a without DNA tests?
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Are you saying that Celts purposely left all J2a man in Ukraine when they left to the west? How did they know which one was J2a without DNA tests?
    Well, they also left most I2a and R1a men in that area. Maybe it was just a very homogeneous clan/tribe that left Central Europe and on their quest to invade Western Europe and were all leaders (males) of that tribe related by bloodline, were brothers, cousins etc of each other. But there's still some clades of J2a in Western Europe in Celtic areas: France, Southern Englnd, Italy. And J2a in Western Europe is not really that old and not from the ancient times, since they still never found pre-historic J2a in Europe to date!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    R1b is a haplogroup of true warriors in the Western Europe, R1a is a haplogroups of warriors in the Eurasian steppes. But J2a is a haplogroup of (civilizations and) GODS!
    The original Jews belonged to J2a and were from Northern Mesopotamia. The name of their God, YAHWEH, is from Northern Mesopotamia. Abraham and Noah were from Mesopotamia. The Jewish Golden Calf and the coming of the Messiah!

    But I believe that proto-Indo-Aryans and proto-Iranians (Aryans) were J2a folks from West Asian that mixed with R1a-Z93 native to the Iranian Plateau and Central Asia!
    Are you trying to confuse us on purpose?
    According to you, Aryans originally were J2a (IE and came from steppe), conquered mesopotamia, populated it with high J2a, which later gave start to Jews, their main HG? Other words, proto Jews were Aryans.
    Now, Hitler would really flip.

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    No, the indo-aryans (the Iranian indo-European branch) would have been primarily R1a. The same goes for much of Central Asia where R1a is found at high frequencies (Afghanistan,India,Pakistan,Nepal,Tajikistan,turke nistan Central Asia etc.) the indo-European anatolians on the other hand, (turkey,Armenia,north Iraqi rare instances) is R1b.

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    So Central Asia has more R1a (including Iran), whereas Anatolia and the Caucasus region (Armenia) is where they where R1b L-23.

  15. #40
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    In the bible most of the descriptions give blue eyes or ruddy hair or pale skin for almost everyone in the OT. They also claim to come from Ur.

    So that part makes sense. The semitic look of some jews is probably just that, exposure to semitic influence further south. Guy in the video looks exactly like what I expect for messopotamians.

    I think the golden calf, though, was the outside influnce that was rejected. Rejection of the probably r1b cultures.

    But you have to realize too jews got enslaved by rome en masse and became a big part of urban life in europe from then on. That's probably where rome and greece in byzantine times picked up the huge amount of j2a. We know there were more jews than greeks in Constantinople before it fell! Dienekes is conviced greece is j2a but I suspect it's because he himself is. Classic greeks look nothing like the guy in the video.

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    Jews are not the source of all J2. The J2 mutation took place LONG before the bible and Jews. You are wrong. Much J2 in Italy is of Neolithic origin from the Middle East, or from Cretans/Greeks that colonized southern Italy but that thousands of years before, found their origin in a wave of men that moved from western turkey into Greece and the Aegean world. (Note, J2 did not originate in western turkey, It's origins point to southern turkey/northern Syria, northwestern Iraq. Most of it in Italy is NOT because of middle eastern Ashkenazi / Sephardic Jewish groups; although undoubtedly, a smaller percentage of it is.

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    Much of the J2 in Greece (j2b) seems to cluster in it Greek and albanian J, even 10% of north-central italian. J2. Italy is a different story, as most of it in Italy is J2a, linking it to Cretans and mainland middle easterners; who have a more middle eastern clade. So J2b is primarily restricted to the southern Balkans and north-central Italy, whereas J2a dominates Italy, and is found from western Iran across Armenia, turkey, northern Iraq, Lebanon etc. Crete is a sort of "treasure box of J2a", not only does crete have europes highest frequencies of the male J2 lineage, the vast majority of it is J2a, heavily linking Cretan populations to Turkish and nearby middle eastern ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    Jews are not the source of all J2. The J2 mutation took place LONG before the bible and Jews. You are wrong. Much J2 in Italy is of Neolithic origin from the Middle East, or from Cretans/Greeks that colonized southern Italy but that thousands of years before, found their origin in a wave of men that moved from western turkey into Greece and the Aegean world. (Note, J2 did not originate in western turkey, It's origins point to southern turkey/northern Syria, northwestern Iraq. Most of it in Italy is NOT because of middle eastern Ashkenazi / Sephardic Jewish groups; although undoubtedly, a smaller percentage of it is.
    Exactly. J2 is early farmers HG from Fertile Crescent. They were in Europe and any farming lands around mediterranean long before Greek or Roman Empires.

  19. #44
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    All right, I am convinced.

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    J2, tiny amounts of J1 and G all entered europe during the Neolithic some 10,000-15,000 years ago. Then there are countless waves of J2 people's such as the Etruscans, followed by the Greeks who would have brought E-V13 with them etc.

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    Maybe hg T shares a similar story as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noman View Post

    But you have to realize too jews got enslaved by rome en masse and became a big part of urban life in europe from then on. That's probably where rome and greece in byzantine times picked up the huge amount of j2a. We know there were more jews than greeks in Constantinople before it fell!
    They didn't need to be enslaved to spread. Wherever they've gone they were successful. Before the WWII there were 6 million Jews in Poland and Russia alone (15% of population of Poland), and 10 million in whole Europe. Who knows how many millions of them were already assimilated in Europe during last 2000 years. I'm sure there is a little bit of Jewish blood in every European by now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    Maybe hg T shares a similar story as well.
    Looks like it does.

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    True, we cannot confuse the two. Many European J and K mtdna lineages ARE evidence of Ashkenazi Jewish blood. Many male J1 and J2 or E3b lineages, even T, can be found in Jews, especially If the individual comes from east-central Europe near Germany/Poland/Belarus/Ukraine, lots of Jews. And then others are of much older Neolithic influence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    J2, tiny amounts of J1 and G all entered europe during the Neolithic some 10,000-15,000 years ago.
    Perhaps, but it is hard to prove at the moment.

    Then there are countless waves of J2 people's such as the Etruscans, followed by the Greeks who would have brought E-V13 with them etc.
    I'm sure E-V13 entered Europe long before any people called themselves Greeks. Greeks became Greeks after IE invasions.

    I think that if J, G, T and E dominated pre IE mediterranean Europe, they probably used Afro-Asiatic/Semitic language. The supposed language of farmers from Fertile Crescent. Modern Greek is IE language. IE brought big cultural and linguistic shift. Only after that we see creation of Greece as we know it.

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