J2 Civilisations and Bull Worship

[Abernathy]

But I believe that proto-Indo-Aryans and proto-Iranians (Aryans) were J2a folks from West Asian that mixed with R1a-Z93 native to the Iranian Plateau and Central Asia! So It makes actually sense that bull-worshiping in Indus Valley is from West Asia, because West Asian/Caucasian y-DNA hg. J2a is present in Indus Valley. Also have you noticed that Indus Valley is very high withGedrosia autDNA component. And Gedrosia component is closely connected to West Asia/Caucasiancomponent.

Well, I respect your own opinion, but I have to say that most genetists are convinced that R1a was the original lineage of Indo-Aryan people (who, indeed, were IE nomads coming from present Turkestan -Adronovo/Sintashta cultures-, keen to proven R1a Tocharian folks), while J2a is thought to be a non-IE lineage that Indo-Aryans later incorporated during their journey to Hindustan through the Iranian plateau. Which seems to be exactly the opposite to what you said

I can't say who's right, but I haven't seen any evidence against the traditional R1a theory, so far.

Besides this, and much more important: Indus Valley civilization is not Indo-Aryan, since it rose much earlier, at about a thousand years before Vedic people reached India. So, even if we consider Aryans to be a middle-eastern J2a cluster, which just met R1a through its way (as you said), cattle worship in India can't be expained as a result of an Aryan invasion from the Tigris, simply because buffaloes were already worshipped in India (or at least had some sacred importance) when Aryans got there.

So, whether Indo-Aryans were J2a or R1a people, it gets unrelevant: cattle worshipping (of some sort) preceeded them of a millenium.

 

[Goga]

I don't know who you mean by 'most genetics', I just hope you don’t mean the online amateur community. But according to many professional scholars and academics this was the case:

 

[Noman]

" Seal impressions have been found in the ancient city of Harrapan, in the Indus River valley (modern Pakistan), that had been made by seals found in Lagash in Sumeria (modern i-rack). From 3,600 B.C. in Sumer, and a little later in the Indus Valley, we can find seals made out of a rare high-quality stone, lapis lazuli. These stones could only have originated from rather distant and inaccessible mines in Afghanistan. "

So we have got 5 indications that Sumerians (proto-Aryans) migrated into the Indus Valley! a) J2a, b) bull-worshiping, c) Solar Religion, d) viticulture and e) Sumerian stone seals!

Except celts and a dozen other synonymous or similar groups all have these same things, and they aren't associated with all or even most J2J2. 3600 bc is far enough back to be pretty close to the origin point.

Basically the vedics are r1a, at least in current days and I am pretty sure, just always. There so many of them with R1a it's hard to deny that. J2 is in current day gedrosia but its not in india as heavily, and not as heavy as r1a.

I am pretty sure persia is the origin point, but who knows, maybe IVC itself.

 

[Goga]

Except celts and a dozen other synonymous or similar groups all have these same things, and they aren't associated with all or even most J2J2. 3600 bc is far enough back to be pretty close to the origin point.

Basically the vedics are r1a, at least in current days and I am pretty sure, just always. There so many of them with R1a it's hard to deny that. J2 is in current day gedrosia but its not in india as heavily, and not as heavy as r1a.

I am pretty sure persia is the origin point, but who knows, maybe IVC itself.

As we know original proto-Celtic R1b lived not far from J2a in West Asia, and maybe even together with J2a in Southern Caucasus since we have got different lineages of J2a in Europe from different eras. I'm sure West European R1b got Centum Indo-Europeanized in West Asia, When R1b migrated from West Asia into Europe, R1b was already Centum Indo-European.

There’s a lot WestAsian J2a in Indus Valley and Central Asia, much more than in inland of Indian sub continent.

R1a-Z93 was is/was native to the Iranian Plateau, Central Asia etc. for a very long time. BEFORE the arrival of J2a!!!

 

[Noman]

Well, I respect your own opinion, but I have to say that most genetists are convinced that R1a was the original lineage of Indo-Aryan people (who, indeed, were IE nomads coming from present Turkestan -Adronovo/Sintashta cultures-, keen to proven R1a Tocharian folks), while J2a is thought to be a non-IE lineage that Indo-Aryans later incorporated during their journey to Hindustan through the Iranian plateau. Which seems to be exactly the opposite to what you said

I can't say who's right, but I haven't seen any evidence against the traditional R1a theory, so far.

Besides this, and much more important: Indus Valley civilization is not Indo-Aryan, since it rose much earlier, at about a thousand years before Vedic people reached India. So, even if we consider Aryans to be a middle-eastern J2a cluster, which just met R1a through its way (as you said), cattle worship in India can't be expained as a result of an Aryan invasion from the Tigris, simply because buffaloes were already worshipped in India (or at least had some sacred importance) when Aryans got there.

So, whether Indo-Aryans were J2a or R1a people, it gets unrelevant: cattle worshipping (of some sort) preceeded them of a millenium.

The tribes that are called aryan today are r2. However they are probably not what is refered to, after all they talk about "aryans" in germany as well. Just like the romans called everyone celts for a while, too. Just kind of blanket terms.

And I don't htink you can say the cattle worshipping preceeded them. That's just the furthers back we have found them in that area. Since cattle worship worms all through the IE migrating people I don't think you can separate the two without some serious evidence.

 

[Noman]

As we know original proto-Celtic R1b lived not far from J2a in West Asia, and maybe even together with J2a in Southern Caucasus since we have got different lineages of J2a in Europe from different eras. I'm sure West European R1b got Centum Indo-Europeanized in West Asia, When R1b migrated from West Asia into Europe, R1b was already Centum Indo-European.

There’s a lot WestAsian J2a in Indus Valley and Central Asia, much more than in inland of Indian sub continent.

R1a-Z93 was is/was native to the Iranian Plateau, Central Asia etc. for a very long time. BEFORE the arrival of J2a!!!

But there doesn't seem to be any j2a component in celts.

 

[Goga]

The tribes that are called aryan today are r2. However they are probably not what is refered to, after all they talk about "aryans" in germany as well. Just like the romans called everyone celts for a while, too. Just kind of blanket terms.

And I don't htink you can say the cattle worshipping preceeded them. That's just the furthers back we have found them in that area. Since cattle worship worms all through the IE migrating people I don't think you can separate the two without some serious evidence.

Aryan = different name for Iranian. According to the Histories of Herodotus: " The Medes were called anciently by all people Aryans ". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medes

 

[Goga]

But there doesn't seem to be any j2a component in celts.

There's a lot J2a in Ukraine and Central Europe. It is possible that Proto-Celts that migrated out of West Asia first settled down in Central-East Europe. From that Central European region they (already evolved West European R1b Celts) invaded Western Europe.

 

[RHAS]

Sacred Egyptian cows and bulls (Apis)

"In Egyptian mythology, Apis or Hapis (alternatively spelled Hapi-ankh), is a bull-deity that was worshipped in the Memphis region."
Apis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apis_(god)

 

[Noman]

Just so you know I don't think r = all IE and is probably not origin of anything just spreader. But it seems more likely to be iran to me to originate it, though I guess that could be argued might have been mostly j2a at some point, I am not sure honestly.

In my mind the Rs were HG who are now settled farmers and J2a were farmers much sooner and became mobile later but maybe I am sketchy on j2a facts.

 

[Goga]

R1b is a haplogroup of true warriors in the Western Europe, R1a is a haplogroups of warriors in the Eurasian steppes. But J2a is a haplogroup of (civilizations and) GODS!
The original Jews belonged to J2a and were from Northern Mesopotamia. The name of their God, YAHWEH, is from Northern Mesopotamia. Abraham and Noah were from Mesopotamia. The Jewish Golden Calf and the coming of the Messiah!

 

[adamo]

J2 is found in 20% of Jews. It's also found in 15-30% of Syrians, 30% of Iraqis, Armenians, Iranians, Georgians,Turks,v35% of Lebanese, etc; it isn't only restricted to Jews in the Middle East; there are different Jewish and non-Jewish networks within J2; even some European and Indian ones. J2 has a high that covers everything from Israel and north-central Iraq in the south, to western iran and across the Caucasus, and onto the Anatolian peninsula and into the levant as well. What is known is that the Phoenicians of the levant, along with Anatolian groups, crossed into Europe and brought some of their J2 influence with them during the Neolithic period 10,000 years ago. From far, certain people classify these lineages as Assyrian/Mesopotamian; among the first successful middle eastern agriculturalists who would settle for thousands of years across Anatolia and the near east (the Fertile Crescent portion in particular.) During the Neolithic, prolonged prior agricultural success would propel the J2 lineage from turkey into a few rare parts of the Greek peninsula and the island of Crete. This would be the first steps of an upcoming Mediterranean dominance. Today, the highest J2 frequencies of all in Europe are in Crete, where 37% of men belong to J2 alone. Cyprus has very high levels as well (32-35%), which isn't surprising due to it's proximity to turkey/levant. Sicily has surprisingly high J2 values (30%) and southern Italy is close behind (20-25%). Overall, both Italy and Greece have about 20-25% J2 on a national level. These are by far the highest frequencies in Europe. Albania and Bulgaria have 10-15% as do Romania, Portugal and Spain.

 

[Goga]

J2a is the only 4th or 5th haplogroup among Assyrians. Assyrians belong mostly to R1b and J1 (+ E, T etc) Assyrians are descendants of Akkadians and some Semitic tribes frorm the Levant, while the original proto-Jews came from North ( Kurdish populated areas ) and belonged mostly to hg. J2a. This is what the Jewish/Israeli scientists are telling us. Later, Jews from north mixed with E & J1 folks in Israel (/ the Levant)! So, it's possible that the original J2a Jews were not Semitic speakers at all.

 

[Goga]

Part 2: the Golden Calf and the coming of their Jewish Messiah.

 

[LeBrok]

There's a lot J2a in Ukraine and Central Europe. It is possible that Proto-Celts that migrated out of West Asia first settled down in Central-East Europe. From that Central European region they (already evolved West European R1b Celts) invaded Western Europe.

Are you saying that Celts purposely left all J2a man in Ukraine when they left to the west? How did they know which one was J2a without DNA tests?

 

[Goga]

Are you saying that Celts purposely left all J2a man in Ukraine when they left to the west? How did they know which one was J2a without DNA tests?

Well, they also left most I2a and R1a men in that area. :grin: Maybe it was just a very homogeneous clan/tribe that left Central Europe and on their quest to invade Western Europe and were all leaders (males) of that tribe related by bloodline, were brothers, cousins etc of each other. But there's still some clades of J2a in Western Europe in Celtic areas: France, Southern Englnd, Italy. And J2a in Western Europe is not really that old and not from the ancient times, since they still never found pre-historic J2a in Europe to date!

 

[LeBrok]

R1b is a haplogroup of true warriors in the Western Europe, R1a is a haplogroups of warriors in the Eurasian steppes. But J2a is a haplogroup of (civilizations and) GODS!
The original Jews belonged to J2a and were from Northern Mesopotamia. The name of their God, YAHWEH, is from Northern Mesopotamia. Abraham and Noah were from Mesopotamia. The Jewish Golden Calf and the coming of the Messiah!

But I believe that proto-Indo-Aryans and proto-Iranians (Aryans) were J2a folks from West Asian that mixed with R1a-Z93 native to the Iranian Plateau and Central Asia!

Are you trying to confuse us on purpose?
According to you, Aryans originally were J2a (IE and came from steppe), conquered mesopotamia, populated it with high J2a, which later gave start to Jews, their main HG? Other words, proto Jews were Aryans.
Now, Hitler would really flip.

 

[adamo]

No, the indo-aryans (the Iranian indo-European branch) would have been primarily R1a. The same goes for much of Central Asia where R1a is found at high frequencies (Afghanistan,India,Pakistan,Nepal,Tajikistan,turkenistan Central Asia etc.) the indo-European anatolians on the other hand, (turkey,Armenia,north Iraqi rare instances) is R1b.

 

[adamo]

So Central Asia has more R1a (including Iran), whereas Anatolia and the Caucasus region (Armenia) is where they where R1b L-23.

 

[Noman]

In the bible most of the descriptions give blue eyes or ruddy hair or pale skin for almost everyone in the OT. They also claim to come from Ur.

So that part makes sense. The semitic look of some jews is probably just that, exposure to semitic influence further south. Guy in the video looks exactly like what I expect for messopotamians.

I think the golden calf, though, was the outside influnce that was rejected. Rejection of the probably r1b cultures.

But you have to realize too jews got enslaved by rome en masse and became a big part of urban life in europe from then on. That's probably where rome and greece in byzantine times picked up the huge amount of j2a. We know there were more jews than greeks in Constantinople before it fell! Dienekes is conviced greece is j2a but I suspect it's because he himself is. Classic greeks look nothing like the guy in the video.