J2 Civilisations and Bull Worship

Jews are not the source of all J2. The J2 mutation took place LONG before the bible and Jews. You are wrong. Much J2 in Italy is of Neolithic origin from the Middle East, or from Cretans/Greeks that colonized southern Italy but that thousands of years before, found their origin in a wave of men that moved from western turkey into Greece and the Aegean world. (Note, J2 did not originate in western turkey, It's origins point to southern turkey/northern Syria, northwestern Iraq. Most of it in Italy is NOT because of middle eastern Ashkenazi / Sephardic Jewish groups; although undoubtedly, a smaller percentage of it is.
 
Much of the J2 in Greece (j2b) seems to cluster in it Greek and albanian J, even 10% of north-central italian. J2. Italy is a different story, as most of it in Italy is J2a, linking it to Cretans and mainland middle easterners; who have a more middle eastern clade. So J2b is primarily restricted to the southern Balkans and north-central Italy, whereas J2a dominates Italy, and is found from western Iran across Armenia, turkey, northern Iraq, Lebanon etc. Crete is a sort of "treasure box of J2a", not only does crete have europes highest frequencies of the male J2 lineage, the vast majority of it is J2a, heavily linking Cretan populations to Turkish and nearby middle eastern ones.
 
adamo said:
Jews are not the source of all J2. The J2 mutation took place LONG before the bible and Jews. You are wrong. Much J2 in Italy is of Neolithic origin from the Middle East, or from Cretans/Greeks that colonized southern Italy but that thousands of years before, found their origin in a wave of men that moved from western turkey into Greece and the Aegean world. (Note, J2 did not originate in western turkey, It's origins point to southern turkey/northern Syria, northwestern Iraq. Most of it in Italy is NOT because of middle eastern Ashkenazi / Sephardic Jewish groups; although undoubtedly, a smaller percentage of it is.
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Exactly. J2 is early farmers HG from Fertile Crescent. They were in Europe and any farming lands around mediterranean long before Greek or Roman Empires.
 
J2, tiny amounts of J1 and G all entered europe during the Neolithic some 10,000-15,000 years ago. Then there are countless waves of J2 people's such as the Etruscans, followed by the Greeks who would have brought E-V13 with them etc.
 
Maybe hg T shares a similar story as well.
 
Noman said:
But you have to realize too jews got enslaved by rome en masse and became a big part of urban life in europe from then on. That's probably where rome and greece in byzantine times picked up the huge amount of j2a. We know there were more jews than greeks in Constantinople before it fell!
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They didn't need to be enslaved to spread. Wherever they've gone they were successful. Before the WWII there were 6 million Jews in Poland and Russia alone (15% of population of Poland), and 10 million in whole Europe. Who knows how many millions of them were already assimilated in Europe during last 2000 years. I'm sure there is a little bit of Jewish blood in every European by now.
 
True, we cannot confuse the two. Many European J and K mtdna lineages ARE evidence of Ashkenazi Jewish blood. Many male J1 and J2 or E3b lineages, even T, can be found in Jews, especially If the individual comes from east-central Europe near Germany/Poland/Belarus/Ukraine, lots of Jews. And then others are of much older Neolithic influence.
 
adamo said:
J2, tiny amounts of J1 and G all entered europe during the Neolithic some 10,000-15,000 years ago.
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Perhaps, but it is hard to prove at the moment.

Then there are countless waves of J2 people's such as the Etruscans, followed by the Greeks who would have brought E-V13 with them etc.
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I'm sure E-V13 entered Europe long before any people called themselves Greeks. Greeks became Greeks after IE invasions.

I think that if J, G, T and E dominated pre IE mediterranean Europe, they probably used Afro-Asiatic/Semitic language. The supposed language of farmers from Fertile Crescent. Modern Greek is IE language. IE brought big cultural and linguistic shift. Only after that we see creation of Greece as we know it.
 
I doubt any E-V13 moved from the Balkans to Italy without it being of Greek origin. It would be E-M78 or E-M81 if it was still purely north-African maybe the middle eastern/Sinai E-V22? Greeks simply mixed with later incoming indo-europeans (the original middle eastern/north-African barbaroi). And that is when the barbarians wherein"hellenized" or almost in an interpretational sense, civilized. That is when the Greek ethnos was created.
 
Doubt no more;

In 2007 Cruciani et al 2007 stated that E-V13 originated in the NearEast/Anatolia and spread during the Neolithic times to the Balkans and from there to rest of Europe;

Thus, the most parsimonious and plausible scenario is that E-V13 originated in western Asia about 11 ky ago.....As to a western Asia–Europe connection, our data suggest that western Asians carrying E-V13 may have reached the Balkans anytime after 17.0 ky ago, but expanded into Europe not earlier than 5.3 ky ago.

Cruciani placed the spread of E-V13 in the Neolithic however also to a much later date;


In 2011 it was revealed that E-V13 was found at a Neolithic site as far west as Spain [5th mil. BC]

Lacan et al 2011 - Neolithic Spain
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2011/10/24/1113061108.full.pdf+html
Cruciani et al 2007 -
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/6/1300.full.pdf+html
 
It has to be because we have E before there were classic greeks, anyway, and a lot further in than italy.
 
Heracles and the Cretan Bull.

"Whistling merrily at his success so far, Heracles was then sent to capture the bull by Eurystheus as his seventh task. He sailed to Crete, whereupon the King, Minos, gave Heracles permission to take the bull away and offered him assistance, which Heracles denied because of pride,[1] as it had been wreaking havoc on Crete by uprooting crops and leveling orchard walls. Heracles sneaked up behind the bull and then used his hands to strangle it, and then shipped it back to Athens. Eurystheus, who hid in his pithos at first sight of the creature, wanted to sacrifice the bull to Hera, who hated Heracles. She refused the sacrifice because it reflected glory on Heracles. The bull was released and wandered into Marathon, becoming known as the Marathonian Bull.[1] Theseus would later sacrifice the bull to Athena and/or Apollo. Eurystheus then sent Heracles to bring back the man-eating Mares of Diomedes."
Cretan Bull - The Seventh Labour of Heracles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretan_Bull

"The most frequent haplogroups among the current population on Crete were: R1b3-M269 (17%), G2-P15 (11%), J2a1-DYS413 (9.0%), and J2a1h-M319 (9.0%). They identified J2a parent haplogroup J2a-M410 (Crete: 25.9%) with the first ancient residents of Crete during the Neolithic (8500 BCE – 4300 BCE) suggesting Crete was founded by a Neolithic population expansion from ancient Turkey/Anatolia."
The Minoans, DNA and all.
http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/04/14/the-minoans-dna-and-all/

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Heracles capturing the Cretan Bull. Detail of a Roman mosaic from Llíria (Spain).

"There is a distinct association of ancient J2 civilisations with bull worship"
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml
 
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Cretan/Minoan Bull

"When the moon has reached the constellation of Taurus, it has passed over an area that the ancients referred to as the sea - the region from Capricorn to the region containing Aries. It was referred to as the sea due to the high concentration of constellations identified as sea creatures within it, Aries being identified as a golden flying ram who flew over the sea. Crete is in a direct line from the natural harbor of Argo, a direction which due the shape of Argo's harbor, and surrounding coastline, requires that all ships initially take this course. Apart from being a bull, Taurus contains a very bright and red star (Aldebaran), meaning that many took it to be evil. Some forms of Greek mythology associated the constellation with the tame white bull, in some versions Zeus in disguise, that seduced Europa and took her to Crete (Minos), whereas others associate it with the white bull that fathered the Minotaur. The Cretan Bull which fathered the Minotaur was originally calm and sent from Poseidon, but king Minos whom it was sent to fell out of favor with Poseidon, and so in some versions of the story, Poseidon made the bull angry. The myth of Poseidon sending the bull (which seduced Minos' wife) may simply be an earlier version of the myth of Zeus seducing Europa, as in earlier Mycenean times, Poseidon had significantly more importance than Zeus. The change of gods was due to the replacement of the Mycenean culture and religion, with a later one favoring Zeus. Poseidon and Zeus, which have the same etymological origin (Poseidon deriving from Posei-Deion which means Lord God[citation needed], and Zeus deriving from Deus which also means God[citation needed]), may be the result of the parallel evolution of the same original god in separate cultures, one (Poseidon - who is also associated with horses) becoming associated more with the sea (due to change in the main source of trade), and thus eventually becoming noticeably different."
Cretan Bull
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretan_Bull

"It has been proposed that haplogroup subclade J-M410 was linked to populations on ancient Crete by examining the relationship between Anatolian, Cretan, and Greek populations from around early Neolithic sites in Crete."
Wikipedia.org - Haplogroup J2 M172.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M172_(Y-DNA)

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"The Mithraic Mysteries were a mystery religion practiced in the Roman Empire from about the 1st to 4th centuries AD. The name of the Persian god Mithra (proto-Indo-Iranian Mitra), adapted into Greek as Mithras, was linked to a new and distinctive imagery. Writers of the Roman Empire period referred to this mystery religion by phrases which can be anglicized as Mysteries of Mithras or Mysteries of the Persians; modern historians refer to it as Mithraism, or sometimes Roman Mithraism. The mysteries were popular in the Roman military."
Mithraic Mysteries
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraic_mysteries

 
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RHAS said:
Mithras.

"The tauroctony scene is the cult relief (i.e. the central icon) of the Mithraic Mysteries. It depicts Mithras killing a bull, hence the name 'tauroctony', given to the scene in modern times possibly after the Greek ταυροκτόνος (tauroktonos) "slaughtering bulls", which derives from ταῦρος (tauros) "bull" + κτόνος (ktonos) "murder", from κτείνω (kteinō), "I kill, slay"."
Tauroctony
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tauroctony

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"The Mithraic Mysteries were a mystery religion practiced in the Roman Empire from about the 1st to 4th centuries AD. The name of the Persian god Mithra (proto-Indo-Iranian Mitra), adapted into Greek as Mithras, was linked to a new and distinctive imagery. Writers of the Roman Empire period referred to this mystery religion by phrases which can be anglicized as Mysteries of Mithras or Mysteries of the Persians; modern historians refer to it as Mithraism, or sometimes Roman Mithraism. The mysteries were popular in the Roman military."
Mithraic Mysteries
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraic_mysteries

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Mithra among Indo-Iranians and ancient Anatolians is the personification of the sun. But it is also often depicted with bulls.
 
So Hercules is linked to bull worship...the Lydians had a heraklid dynasty....either the Cretans moved to Lydia and created the Carians, Lycians and such or vice-versa, or even from turkey to Crete and then back again from Crete to turkey; either way it's obvious the bull arrived from turkey (Chatal Hoyuk) and such places as bulls were first worshipped there and then from Crete which was also settled by Phoenicians according to that text, towards Mycenae and Peloponnesus....the first Cretan king "Minos", all this is proof of anatolians moving to Crete under Minoan culture and then expanding to the PeloponnesusPeloponnesus
 
Seems rah a Greek god (Zeus) fell in love with a Phoenicians daughter, brought her to Crete,
 
Nandi.

"Nandi, is the name for the bull which serves as the mount (Sanskrit: Vahana) of the god Shiva and as the gate keeper of Shiva and Parvati, and in Hindu mythology. He is the chief guru of eighteen masters(18 siddhas) including Patanjali and Thirumular. Temples venerating Shiva display stone images of a seated Nandi, generally facing the main shrine. There are also a number of temples dedicated solely to Nandi."
Nandi Bull
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nandi_(bull)

"The J2 lineage originated in the northern portion of the Fertile Crescent where it later spread throughout central Asia, the Mediterranean, and south into India."
Kerchner.com - YDNA Haplogroup Descriptions & Information Links.
http://www.kerchner.com/haplogroups-ydna.htm

"Within India, J2a is more common among the upper castes and decreases in frequency with the cast level."
Eupedia.com, 2013.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml


lord-shiva-sitting-on-bull-with-parvati-and-ganesha-QG46_l.jpg
 
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