Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 72

Thread: J2 Civilisations and Bull Worship

  1. #1
    Baron RHAS's Avatar
    Join Date
    25-04-13
    Posts
    268


    Country: Netherlands



    J2 Civilisations and Bull Worship

    "There is a distinct association of ancient J2 civilisations with bull worship."
    Eupedia.com, 2011.
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

    "There is a distinct association of ancient J2 civilisations with bull worship. The oldest evidence of a cult of the bull can be traced back to Neolithic central Anatolia, notably at the sites of Çatalhöyük and Alaca Höyük. Bull depictions are omnipresent in Minoan frescos and ceramics in Crete. Bull-masked terracotta figurines and bull-horned stone altars have been found in Cyprus (dating back as far as the Neolithic, the first presumed expansion of J2 from West Asia)."
    The Sacred Bull.
    http://aratta.wordpress.com/2012/12/02/the-sacred-bull/
    Last edited by RHAS; 27-08-13 at 20:13.

  2. #2
    Baron RHAS's Avatar
    Join Date
    25-04-13
    Posts
    268


    Country: Netherlands



    Bull leaping, (taurokathapsia)

    "Bull-leaping (also taurokathapsia, from Greek ταυροκαθάψια) is a motif of Middle Bronze Age figurative art, notably of Minoan Crete, but also found in Hittite Anatolia, the Levant, Bactria and the Indus Valley. It is often interpreted as a depiction of a ritual performed in connection with bull worship. This ritual consists of an acrobatic leap over a bull; when the leaper grasps the bull's horns, the bull will violently jerk his neck upwards giving the leaper the momentum necessary to perform somersaults and other acrobatic tricks or stunts."
    Bull-leaping
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull-leaping

    Minoan Bull-Leaping Fresco.



    Modern Recortadores

    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by RHAS; 03-09-13 at 00:14.

  3. #3
    Baron RHAS's Avatar
    Join Date
    25-04-13
    Posts
    268


    Country: Netherlands



    Zeus and Europa

    "In Greek mythology Europa (Greek Ευρώπη Eurṓpē) was a Phoenician woman of high lineage, from whom the name of the continent Europe has ultimately been taken. The story of her abduction by Zeus in the form of a white bull was a Cretan story; as Kerényi points out "most of the love-stories concerning Zeus originated from more ancient tales describing his marriages with goddesses. This can especially be said of the story of Europa".
    Europa (Mythology)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(mythology)

    885124_510383479019812_1389822478_o.jpg





    Last edited by RHAS; 28-08-13 at 04:55.

  4. #4
    Baron RHAS's Avatar
    Join Date
    25-04-13
    Posts
    268


    Country: Netherlands



    The bull: symbol of power fertilizing, propagation vital. Associate for their horns with the moon and its influences. Connects with the mythical figure of the Minotaur, with the Egyptian Apis bull, bullfighting dance with ancient Crete, and the cult of Mithras.

    El toro: símbolo de potencia fecundante, de propagación vital. Asociado por sus cuernos con la luna y sus influjos. Entroncado con la figura mítica del Minotauro, con el toro egipcio Apis, con las danzas taurinas de la antigua Creta, y con el culto de Mitra.

    Last edited by RHAS; 03-09-13 at 00:19.

  5. #5
    Baron RHAS's Avatar
    Join Date
    25-04-13
    Posts
    268


    Country: Netherlands



    Mithras.

    "The tauroctony scene is the cult relief (i.e. the central icon) of the Mithraic Mysteries. It depicts Mithras killing a bull, hence the name 'tauroctony', given to the scene in modern times possibly after the Greek ταυροκτόνος (tauroktonos) "slaughtering bulls", which derives from ταῦρος (tauros) "bull" + κτόνος (ktonos) "murder", from κτείνω (kteinō), "I kill, slay"."
    Tauroctony
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tauroctony

    560101_496337353757758_605236080_n.jpg

    "The Mithraic Mysteries were a mystery religion practiced in the Roman Empire from about the 1st to 4th centuries AD. The name of the Persian god Mithra (proto-Indo-Iranian Mitra), adapted into Greek as Mithras, was linked to a new and distinctive imagery. Writers of the Roman Empire period referred to this mystery religion by phrases which can be anglicized as Mysteries of Mithras or Mysteries of the Persians; modern historians refer to it as Mithraism, or sometimes Roman Mithraism. The mysteries were popular in the Roman military."
    Mithraic Mysteries
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraic_mysteries

    Last edited by RHAS; 26-08-13 at 21:45.

  6. #6
    Baron RHAS's Avatar
    Join Date
    25-04-13
    Posts
    268


    Country: Netherlands



    "Bucranium, plural bucrania (Latin, from Greek βουκράνιον, referring to the skull of an ox) was a common form of carved decoration in Classical architecture used to fill the metopes between the triglyphs of the frieze of Doric temples. A bas-relief or painted decor consisting of a series of ox-skulls draped or decorated with garlands of fruit or flowers was a Roman motif drawn from marble altars, which have survived in some number; the motif was also later used on Renaissance, Baroque and Neoclassical buildings. The name is generally considered to be a reference to the practice of garlanding sacrificial oxen, the heads of which were displayed on the walls of the temples, a practice with a long history reaching back to the sophisticated Neolithic site of Çatalhöyük in eastern Anatolia, where cattle skulls were overlaid with white plaster."
    Bucranium
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucranium

    "In the Roman Empire of the 2nd to 4th centuries, taurobolium referred to practices involving the sacrifice of a bull, which after mid-2nd century became connected with the worship of the Great Mother of the Gods; though not previously limited to her cultus, after 159 CE all private taurobolia inscriptions mention Magna Mater. Originating in Asia Minor, its earliest attested performance in Italy occurred in 134 CE, at Puteoli, in honor of Venus Caelestis, documented by an inscription."
    Taurobolium.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurobolium

    "In the ancient Mediterranean region, bugonia or bougonia was a ritual based on the belief that bees were spontaneously generated from a cow's carcass, although it is possible that the ritual had more currency as a poetic and learned trope than as an actual practice."
    Bugonia.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugonia

    "The worship of the Sacred Bull throughout the ancient world is most familiar to the Western world in the Biblical episode of the idol of the Golden Calf. The Golden Calf after being made by the Hebrew people in the wilderness of Sinai, were rejected and destroyed by Moses and the Hebrew people after Moses' time upon Mount Sinai (Book of Exodus). Marduk is the "bull of Utu". Shiva's steed is Nandi, the Bull. The sacred bull survives in the constellation Taurus. The bull, whether lunar as in Mesopotamia or solar as in India, is the subject of various other cultural and religious incarnations, as well as modern mentions in new age cultures."
    Sacred Bull.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_bull

    "The name comes from Greek Bosporos (Βόσπορος), which the ancient Greeks analysed as bous βοῦς 'ox' + poros πόρος 'means of passing a river, ford, ferry', thus meaning 'ox-ford', which is a reference to Io (mythology) from Greek mythology who was transformed into a cow and condemned to wander the earth until she crossed the Bosphorus where she met Prometheus."
    Bosphoros.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosphorus

    "Taurus is one of the constellations of the zodiac, which means it is crossed by the plane of the ecliptic. Its name is a Latin word meaning "bull", and its astrological symbol is a stylized bull's head: Taurus.svg (Unicode ♉). Taurus is a large and prominent constellation in the northern hemisphere's winter sky. It is one of the oldest constellations, dating back to at least the Early Bronze Age when it marked the location of the Sun during the spring equinox. Taurus came to symbolize the bull in the mythologies of Ancient Babylon, Egypt and Greece."
    Taurus Constellation.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurus_(constellation)

    "Bucephalus or Bucephalas (/bjuːˈsɛfələs/; Ancient Greek: Βουκέφαλος or Βουκεφάλας, from βούς bous, "ox" and κεφαλή kephalē, "head" meaning "ox-head") (c. 355 BC – June 326 BC) was Alexander the Great's horse and one of the most famous actual horses of antiquity.[1] Ancient accounts[2] state that Bucephalus died after the Battle of the Hydaspes in 326 BC, in what is now modern Pakistan, and is buried in Jalalpur Sharif outside of Jhelum, Pakistan. Another account states that Bucephalus is buried in Phalia, a town in Pakistan's Mandi Bahauddin District, which is named after him."
    Bucephalus.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucephalus
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by RHAS; 03-09-13 at 00:12.

  7. #7
    Baron RHAS's Avatar
    Join Date
    25-04-13
    Posts
    268


    Country: Netherlands



    The First Eden: The Mediterranean World and Man is a BBC documentary series written and presented by David Attenborough, first transmitted in the United Kingdom from 8 March 1987. Attenborough explores the influence of the first Mediterranean civilisations, placing the symbolism of the bull at the centre of his narrative.

    Last edited by RHAS; 28-08-13 at 04:57.

  8. #8
    Baron RHAS's Avatar
    Join Date
    25-04-13
    Posts
    268


    Country: Netherlands



    Theseus and the Minotaur

    "In Greek mythology, the Minotaur (/ˈmaɪnətɔː/, /ˈmɪnəˌtɔr/; Ancient Greek: Μῑνώταυρος [miːnɔ̌ːtau̯ros], Latin: Minotaurus, Etruscan Θevrumineś), was a creature with the head of a bull on the body of a man or, as described by Roman poet Ovid, "part man and part bull". He dwelt at the center of the Cretan Labyrinth, which was an elaborate maze-like construction designed by the architect Daedalus and his son Icarus, on the command of King Minos of Crete. The Minotaur was eventually killed by the Athenian hero Theseus."
    Minotaur.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minotaur

    Last edited by RHAS; 27-08-13 at 21:22.

  9. #9
    Elite member edao's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-02-10
    Location
    Britain
    Posts
    442

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: UK - Scotland



    1 members found this post helpful.
    We still worship the money... I mean the Bull today.

    "Charging Bull, which is sometimes referred to as the Wall Street Bull or the Bowling Green Bull, is a 3,200-kilogram (7,100 lb) bronze sculpture by Arturo Di Modica that stands in Bowling Green Park near Wall Street in Manhattan, New York City." read more


  10. #10
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    28-06-13
    Posts
    4


    Country: Italy



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Not sure all of these ancient people could easily be linked to hg J2.

    J2 was probably the main haplo amongst Minoans, and this can explain references in both Europa's and Theseus' myths, since both of them are referring to Crete, but it was not a major haplogroup in Ancient Egypt, so I can't see how J2 people could have a role in the worship of Api.

    Looking at ancient India, cattle has been worshipped (or, at least, respected and protected) for millennia: Indus Valley civilization shows huge evidence of this, and Toda people -the last pre-Hindu tribal group of India- still rely on dairy products for their survival and practice a cult revolving around the sacred buffalo (which probably is the ancestor of modern indan zebus).

    Haplogroup J2, instead, is fairly common in India, but at far higher rates amongst people belonging to upper castes, who descend from later Indo-Aryan settlers, that arrived in the Indian subcontinent when cows were already addressed to as sacred animals.

    Cattle might have had some importance in Indo-Aryan rites as well, since ritual sacrifice was common amongst related Iranian people before Zarathustra's religious reform (and would later be reprised in Mitra's cult), but this tradition and indigenous indians' beliefs can hardly be related.


    So, the more reasonable explanation is that wherever people domesticated cattle, they introduced cattle itself in their ritual or religious system,whether they belonged to hg J2 or not.

  11. #11
    Marquis
    Join Date
    10-04-13
    Posts
    2,120

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a1a3 (T-PF7443)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Italy



    Think of it; bull worship was used both by Cretans and anatolians (Hittites). The Hittites where a well-respected adversary of the Egyptians, and the Egyptians may have been influenced by the middle eastern Hittites, just as ancient Cretans and Lydia's/Lycian's etc. shared religious beliefs and deities; some ancient Babylonian or Phoenician gods where adopted by Lydians and eventually by Greeks, with Greek versions of these ancient deities and their lost, mythical origins. Much of ancient roman mythology was simply a slightly romanized version of the Greek mythology and gods, another good example of adopting other customs.

  12. #12
    Banned
    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by Abernathy View Post
    Looking at ancient India, cattle has been worshipped (or, at least, respected and protected) for millennia: Indus Valley civilization shows huge evidence of this, and Toda people -the last pre-Hindu tribal group of India- still rely on dairy products for their survival and practice a cult revolving around the sacred buffalo (which probably is the ancestor of modern indan zebus).

    Haplogroup J2, instead, is fairly common in India, but at far higher rates amongst people belonging to upper castes, who descend from later Indo-Aryan settlers, that arrived in the Indian subcontinent when cows were already addressed to as sacred animals.

    Cattle might have had some importance in Indo-Aryan rites as well, since ritual sacrifice was common amongst related Iranian people before Zarathustra's religious reform (and would later be reprised in Mitra's cult), but this tradition and indigenous indians' beliefs can hardly be related.

    So, the more reasonable explanation is that wherever people domesticated cattle, they introduced cattle itself in their ritual or religious system,whether they belonged to hg J2 or not.
    Here we can see a Sumerian Golden Bull. It has been said that there was a migration of 'farmers' from West into the Indus Valley.

  13. #13
    Banned
    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    Sumerian Bull Lyre

  14. #14
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    9,259


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by RHAS View Post
    "There is a distinct association of ancient J2 civilisations with bull worship."
    Eupedia.com, 2013.
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

    "There is a distinct association of ancient J2 civilisations with bull worship. The oldest evidence of a cult of the bull can be traced back to Neolithic central Anatolia, notably at the sites of Çatalhöyük and Alaca Höyük. Bull depictions are omnipresent in Minoan frescos and ceramics in Crete. Bull-masked terracotta figurines and bull-horned stone altars have been found in Cyprus (dating back as far as the Neolithic, the first presumed expansion of J2 from West Asia)."
    The Sacred Bull.
    http://aratta.wordpress.com/2012/12/02/the-sacred-bull/
    I first wrote about the link between haplogroup J2 and bull worship in 2011, not in 2013. The other site that you quoted copied and pasted the content from Eupedia.
    My book selection---Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  15. #15
    Baron RHAS's Avatar
    Join Date
    25-04-13
    Posts
    268


    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I first wrote about the link between haplogroup J2 and bull worship in 2011, not in 2013. The other site that you quoted copied and pasted the content from Eupedia.
    That is correct, the 2013 reference however means i read and documented the quote at that particular time. (not when it first was thought up, which credit obviously goes entirely to eupedia)

  16. #16
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    28-06-13
    Posts
    4


    Country: Italy



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Here we can see a Sumerian Golden Bull. It has been said that there was a migration of 'farmers' from West into the Indus Valley.

    Actually, there's no evidence of a Sumerian/Near-Eastern-lead spreading of agriculture in the Indus Valley, nor genetically nor archaeologically.

    Talking about genetics, haplo J2 in India is linked to bronze-age Indo-aryan newcomers: as I said above, it's major presence amongst brahmins and upper-castes individuals clearly shows it. People from Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro probably belonged to haplogroups L, H and possibly R2.

    Even if we just consider archeological evidence, what we see is a civilization which strongly relied on buffalo herding, which seems to be the focus of their whole culture, whereas farming (although advancely practiced), at least initially, was a collateral activity. A farming-centred interpetation is merely the result of a ME-bias in modern archaeology, as it's suggested in a paper by Walter Fairservis you can find on the web (I'd link it, but my post count is too low).

    Since buffaloes were autonomally domesticated in Southern Asia, there's no necessary intervention of supposed middle-eastern herders. So, a Mesopotamic origin of cattle worshipping in India (either related to hg J2 or not) is hardly reliable.

    Obviously, this is not meant to disprove the existence of an ancient bull worship tradition in Anatolia, nor I'm trying to deny J2 people could have brought this cult to Crete or elsewhere.

    What I men to point out is that when talking about basic beliefs and traditions (e.g. bull worship, Earth Goddess, corpses-related taboos), we shouldn't necessarily search for a common origin, since many aspects of different civilizations could have risen indipendently. Y-haplo's are a great discovery indeed, but we should remember Mayan farmers didn't belong to J1 nor G lineages :)

  17. #17
    Banned
    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    Ok, thanks mate. You seem to know more about this topic than I do. So, I don't know man. But thanks for the input. And I do agree with you that we should stay critical about the origin of bull-worshiping. But I believe that proto-Indo-Aryans and proto-Iranians (Aryans) were J2a folks from West Asian that mixed with R1a-Z93 native to the Iranian Plateau and Central Asia! So It makes actually sense that bull-worshiping in Indus Valley is from West Asia, because West Asian/Caucasian y-DNA hg. J2a is present in Indus Valley. Also have you noticed that Indus Valley is very high withGedrosia autDNA component. And Gedrosia component is closely connected to West Asia/Caucasiancomponent.

  18. #18
    Banned
    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    Solar Religion in Harappa is from the Sumerians! from a book 'The Rise of Man in the Gardens of Sumeria" by Christine Preston

  19. #19
    Banned
    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    " Viticulture was believed to have been introduced to India by Persian traders sometime in the 4th millennium BC. Historians believe that these early plantings were used mostly for table grapes or grape juice rather than the production of an alcoholic beverage. During the Vedic period of the 2nd and 1st millennia, the Aryan tribes of the region were known for their indulgence in intoxicating drink and it seems probable that wine was a current beverage. "
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_wine

  20. #20
    Banned
    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    1 members found this post helpful.
    " Seal impressions have been found in the ancient city of Harrapan, in the Indus River valley (modern Pakistan), that had been made by seals found in Lagash in Sumeria (modern i-rack). From 3,600 B.C. in Sumer, and a little later in the Indus Valley, we can find seals made out of a rare high-quality stone, lapis lazuli. These stones could only have originated from rather distant and inaccessible mines in Afghanistan. " So we have got 5 indications that Sumerians (proto-Aryans) migrated into the Indus Valley! a) J2a, b) bull-worshiping, c) Solar Religion, d) viticulture and e) Sumerian stone seals!

  21. #21
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    28-06-13
    Posts
    4


    Country: Italy



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    But I believe that proto-Indo-Aryans and proto-Iranians (Aryans) were J2a folks from West Asian that mixed with R1a-Z93 native to the Iranian Plateau and Central Asia! So It makes actually sense that bull-worshiping in Indus Valley is from West Asia, because West Asian/Caucasian y-DNA hg. J2a is present in Indus Valley. Also have you noticed that Indus Valley is very high withGedrosia autDNA component. And Gedrosia component is closely connected to West Asia/Caucasiancomponent.
    Well, I respect your own opinion, but I have to say that most genetists are convinced that R1a was the original lineage of Indo-Aryan people (who, indeed, were IE nomads coming from present Turkestan -Adronovo/Sintashta cultures-, keen to proven R1a Tocharian folks), while J2a is thought to be a non-IE lineage that Indo-Aryans later incorporated during their journey to Hindustan through the Iranian plateau. Which seems to be exactly the opposite to what you said

    I can't say who's right, but I haven't seen any evidence against the traditional R1a theory, so far.

    Besides this, and much more important: Indus Valley civilization is not Indo-Aryan, since it rose much earlier, at about a thousand years before Vedic people reached India. So, even if we consider Aryans to be a middle-eastern J2a cluster, which just met R1a through its way (as you said), cattle worship in India can't be expained as a result of an Aryan invasion from the Tigris, simply because buffaloes were already worshipped in India (or at least had some sacred importance) when Aryans got there.

    So, whether Indo-Aryans were J2a or R1a people, it gets unrelevant: cattle worshipping (of some sort) preceeded them of a millenium.

  22. #22
    Banned
    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    I don't know who you mean by 'most genetics', I just hope you don’t mean the online amateur community. But according to many professional scholars and academics this was the case:


  23. #23
    Noman
    Guest


    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    " Seal impressions have been found in the ancient city of Harrapan, in the Indus River valley (modern Pakistan), that had been made by seals found in Lagash in Sumeria (modern i-rack). From 3,600 B.C. in Sumer, and a little later in the Indus Valley, we can find seals made out of a rare high-quality stone, lapis lazuli. These stones could only have originated from rather distant and inaccessible mines in Afghanistan. " So we have got 5 indications that Sumerians (proto-Aryans) migrated into the Indus Valley! a) J2a, b) bull-worshiping, c) Solar Religion, d) viticulture and e) Sumerian stone seals!
    Except celts and a dozen other synonymous or similar groups all have these same things, and they aren't associated with all or even most J2J2. 3600 bc is far enough back to be pretty close to the origin point.

    Basically the vedics are r1a, at least in current days and I am pretty sure, just always. There so many of them with R1a it's hard to deny that. J2 is in current day gedrosia but its not in india as heavily, and not as heavy as r1a.

    I am pretty sure persia is the origin point, but who knows, maybe IVC itself.

  24. #24
    Banned
    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by Noman View Post
    Except celts and a dozen other synonymous or similar groups all have these same things, and they aren't associated with all or even most J2J2. 3600 bc is far enough back to be pretty close to the origin point.

    Basically the vedics are r1a, at least in current days and I am pretty sure, just always. There so many of them with R1a it's hard to deny that. J2 is in current day gedrosia but its not in india as heavily, and not as heavy as r1a.

    I am pretty sure persia is the origin point, but who knows, maybe IVC itself.
    As we know original proto-Celtic R1b lived not far from J2a in West Asia, and maybe even together with J2a in Southern Caucasus since we have got different lineages of J2a in Europe from different eras. I'm sure West European R1b got Centum Indo-Europeanized in West Asia, When R1b migrated from West Asia into Europe, R1b was already Centum Indo-European.

    There’s a lot WestAsian J2a in Indus Valley and Central Asia, much more than in inland of Indian sub continent.

    R1a-Z93 was is/was native to the Iranian Plateau, Central Asia etc. for a very long time. BEFORE the arrival of J2a!!!

  25. #25
    Noman
    Guest


    Quote Originally Posted by Abernathy View Post
    Well, I respect your own opinion, but I have to say that most genetists are convinced that R1a was the original lineage of Indo-Aryan people (who, indeed, were IE nomads coming from present Turkestan -Adronovo/Sintashta cultures-, keen to proven R1a Tocharian folks), while J2a is thought to be a non-IE lineage that Indo-Aryans later incorporated during their journey to Hindustan through the Iranian plateau. Which seems to be exactly the opposite to what you said

    I can't say who's right, but I haven't seen any evidence against the traditional R1a theory, so far.

    Besides this, and much more important: Indus Valley civilization is not Indo-Aryan, since it rose much earlier, at about a thousand years before Vedic people reached India. So, even if we consider Aryans to be a middle-eastern J2a cluster, which just met R1a through its way (as you said), cattle worship in India can't be expained as a result of an Aryan invasion from the Tigris, simply because buffaloes were already worshipped in India (or at least had some sacred importance) when Aryans got there.

    So, whether Indo-Aryans were J2a or R1a people, it gets unrelevant: cattle worshipping (of some sort) preceeded them of a millenium.
    The tribes that are called aryan today are r2. However they are probably not what is refered to, after all they talk about "aryans" in germany as well. Just like the romans called everyone celts for a while, too. Just kind of blanket terms.

    And I don't htink you can say the cattle worshipping preceeded them. That's just the furthers back we have found them in that area. Since cattle worship worms all through the IE migrating people I don't think you can separate the two without some serious evidence.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •