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Thread: New map of Caucasian autosomal admixtures in Europe and the Middle East

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Maciamo, I'm a bit surprised by the 'spot' of 'caucasian' in Guipuzcoa (I believe), lost among a region where 'caucasian' is poor enough - in Iberia, 'caucasian' seems linked to 1) late neolithical movements - 2) to bronze ages colonizations from East - the less dense Portugal could be explained by a first wave of neolithical people, more on the side of Y-G2a and 'western mediterranean' ('basque' + 'sardinian'), and maybe by a light Lusitani impact (I-Eans) - in Spain, the central less dense 'caucasian can be due to Celtiberes' and others from central and western Europe? Germanics could have played too -
    for northern Italy, I'm surprised too by the very high level of 'caucasian': a more precise sampling could break down this unity?


    I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean by breaking down this unity of the "caucasian" element in northern Italy. That element is clinal in Italy, like virtually everything else; caucasus is 22.8 in northern Italy, about 28 in Tuscany and 36 or so in the south on this calculator.

    Within the north, the academic sample from Bergamo and the more general north Italian dodecad population have virtually the same amount of 'caucasus' component.

    The interesting thing, as I've mentioned before, is that Oetzi's caucasus component on the same calculator was also 22%, but Gok 4, also a Neolithic farmer, only had about 5%. So, does the caucasus component in Europe represent a later and slightly different Neolithic migration, and/or is this a sign of the beginning of the metal age migrations. After all, not only did Oetzi possess copper tools, but he had high arsenic levels in his blood, which indicate he probably was a copper worker, and let's not forget that metal working first moved from the east into the Balkans, and then later came east again with other migrations.

    As to the relationship between the Gedrosia and West Asian components, this is what Dienekes has to say about it:

    "Similarly, the West_Asian component (from K=7) is intermediate between the Caucasus and Gedrosia components; the Gedrosia component diverges in the direction of the Asian groups (not shown in this figure), and in particular of South Asians.

    Caucasus/West_Asian components are definitely not comparable across calculators, since 'dv3' used a "West European" category that the other calculators do not, and which was shifted toward West Asia relative to the other "East_European" component."

    As to the K=12 versus K=12b calculators, this is what he has to say: "The additional step of distant relative filtering may also have influenced overall component levels in some cases. Its overall effect is to preclude the creation of population-specific components. Such filtering did take place during 'dv3' for populations with known sets of apparently distantly related individuals (such as the HGDP Arab groups), but it was done with a uniform procedure across all populations in K12a/b."

    Different calculators were done at different times, and the later ones are going to both include more populations and be more refined that the earlier ones. Also, some calculators were created for specific purposes, such as the Globe 13, which was meant to clarify the issue of the SSA component in West Eurasians.

    His best explanation of the relationship between the Caucasus and West Asian components is here in his discussion discussion of K=7b versus K=12b:
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/09...decad-k7b.html

    Gedrosia is just Caucasus with a slice of South Asian. Perhaps a population from further south toward South Asia that picked up a lot of Caucasus during their stay in that area. When the Gedrosia component is not included, I think this is where the South Asian that people get comes from...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean by breaking down this unity of the "caucasian" element in northern Italy. That element is clinal in Italy, like virtually everything else; caucasus is 22.8 in northern Italy, about 28 in Tuscany and 36 or so in the south on this calculator.

    Within the north, the academic sample from Bergamo and the more general north Italian dodecad population have virtually the same amount of 'caucasus' component.

    The interesting thing, as I've mentioned before, is that Oetzi's caucasus component on the same calculator was also 22%, but Gok 4, also a Neolithic farmer, only had about 5%. So, does the caucasus component in Europe represent a later and slightly different Neolithic migration, and/or is this a sign of the beginning of the metal age migrations. After all, not only did Oetzi possess copper tools, but he had high arsenic levels in his blood, which indicate he probably was a copper worker, and let's not forget that metal working first moved from the east into the Balkans, and then later came east again with other migrations.

    As to the relationship between the Gedrosia and West Asian components, this is what Dienekes has to say about it:

    "Similarly, the West_Asian component (from K=7) is intermediate between the Caucasus and Gedrosia components; the Gedrosia component diverges in the direction of the Asian groups (not shown in this figure), and in particular of South Asians.

    Caucasus/West_Asian components are definitely not comparable across calculators, since 'dv3' used a "West European" category that the other calculators do not, and which was shifted toward West Asia relative to the other "East_European" component."

    As to the K=12 versus K=12b calculators, this is what he has to say: "The additional step of distant relative filtering may also have influenced overall component levels in some cases. Its overall effect is to preclude the creation of population-specific components. Such filtering did take place during 'dv3' for populations with known sets of apparently distantly related individuals (such as the HGDP Arab groups), but it was done with a uniform procedure across all populations in K12a/b."

    Different calculators were done at different times, and the later ones are going to both include more populations and be more refined that the earlier ones. Also, some calculators were created for specific purposes, such as the Globe 13, which was meant to clarify the issue of the SSA component in West Eurasians.

    His best explanation of the relationship between the Caucasus and West Asian components is here in his discussion discussion of K=7b versus K=12b:
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/09...decad-k7b.html

    Gedrosia is just Caucasus with a slice of South Asian. Perhaps a population from further south toward South Asia that picked up a lot of Caucasus during their stay in that area. When the Gedrosia component is not included, I think this is where the South Asian that people get comes from...
    wasn't the final outcome that gedrosian was a subset of west-asian and formed in western iran and moved eastward, while west-asian "birthplace" is more an area covering mesopotamia and northern iranian areas?
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    wasn't the final outcome that gedrosian was a subset of west-asian and formed in western iran and moved eastward, while west-asian "birthplace" is more an area covering mesopotamia and northern iranian areas?
    Edit: looking at dodecad K7b, K12 and K12b , I find the K7b more clearer and less cluttered than the others.
    For me, it fits with verbal info from some genetic companies, ie, ftdna, dnatribes and others.
    K12b seems to want to find the precise area for each individual, which seems a tall order.

    K7b for me
    # Population Percent
    1 South_Asian 0.44
    2 West_Asian 17.43
    3 Siberian 0.00
    4 African 0.20
    5 Southern 26.21
    6 Atlantic_Baltic 55.72
    7 East_Asian 0.00


    Pct. Calc. Option 2

    1 N_Italian 90.69%
    2 Mordovians 3.06%
    3 Bulgarian 2.93%
    4 Burusho 2.39%
    5 TSI30 0.49%
    6 Lezgins 0.31%
    7 Tajiks 0.11%
    8 Canarias 0.00%
    9 O_Italian 0.00%
    10 Murcia 0.00%

    Mordovians are central russian people......not to be confused with Moldovians.
    Burusho are border people between tajikstan and pakistan
    TSI30 are tuscan
    Lezkins and a mix of azeri and Azerbaijan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Edit: looking at dodecad K7b, K12 and K12b , I find the K7b more clearer and less cluttered than the others.
    For me, it fits with verbal info from some genetic companies, ie, ftdna, dnatribes and others.
    K12b seems to want to find the precise area for each individual, which seems a tall order.

    K7b for me
    # Population Percent
    1 South_Asian 0.44
    2 West_Asian 17.43
    3 Siberian 0.00
    4 African 0.20
    5 Southern 26.21
    6 Atlantic_Baltic 55.72
    7 East_Asian 0.00


    Pct. Calc. Option 2

    1 N_Italian 90.69%
    2 Mordovians 3.06%
    3 Bulgarian 2.93%
    4 Burusho 2.39%
    5 TSI30 0.49%
    6 Lezgins 0.31%
    7 Tajiks 0.11%
    8 Canarias 0.00%
    9 O_Italian 0.00%
    10 Murcia 0.00%

    Mordovians are central russian people......not to be confused with Moldovians.
    Burusho are border people between tajikstan and pakistan
    TSI30 are tuscan
    Lezkins and a mix of azeri and Azerbaijan
    It always amazes me how accurate his calculators can be, at least for people of Italian ancestry, which are the results with which I'm most familiar, in how individual results so clearly fit the overall patterns.

    These are are mine for 7b:
    S.Asian .2
    W.Asian 17.2 ( virtually identical)
    Siberian 0
    African 0
    Southern 32.1
    Atlantic/Baltic 50.6
    E.Asian 0

    Given that I'm half Tuscan, and that Parma is south of you, (Friuli and Vicenza?) the about six percent swing in Southern vs. Atlantic Baltic makes sense to me. And, as I suspected, there's almost no difference in the West Asian.

    I think there does tend to be more clarity at the lower "K". Not using North Africa as a cluster is also very helpful, I think. North Africa, as Dienekes showed in the link above, is neatly about 60% Southern, it looks like, with the rest divided between SSA and Atlantic/Batlic. (on average of course.) As for K=12, as I posted above, I think it's got some issues.

    With reference to your question about Gedrosian and West Asian, I thought that northern Iran was part of the discussions about possible locations, or at least way stations, for the origin of R1b, and/or the Indo-European languages. I certainly could be wrong about that, though. Do you have any blogs in particular where he discussed the West Asian and Gedrosian relationship in more detail than in the one I linked to above? I'd love to read it...the whole topic is indeed a little murky.

    From what I can see in that analysis above, West Asian in the K=7b run, as expressed in k= 12b components, shows that West Asian as a combination of Caucasus and Gedrosian. (The modal for "West Asian" is variably either Georgia or the Adyghei. )

    K=12b Caucasus as expressed in K=7b components is what looks to be about 50-60% or so West Asian, about 30% Southern and about 10% Atlantic-Baltic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It always amazes me how accurate his calculators can be, at least for people of Italian ancestry, which are the results with which I'm most familiar, in how individual results so clearly fit the overall patterns.

    These are are mine for 7b:
    S.Asian .2
    W.Asian 17.2 ( virtually identical)
    Siberian 0
    African 0
    Southern 32.1
    Atlantic/Baltic 50.6
    E.Asian 0

    Given that I'm half Tuscan, and that Parma is south of you, (Friuli and Vicenza?) the about six percent swing in Southern vs. Atlantic Baltic makes sense to me. And, as I suspected, there's almost no difference in the West Asian.
    my line is Trevisan and Trentin , you parma Line indicates an Emilian and northern Tuscan, maybe even Lucchese. The lombard and piedmontese would also fit to a degree.
    I agree the six % makes sense especially for you, deducting from atlantic to give to your southern


    With reference to your question about Gedrosian and West Asian, I thought that northern Iran was part of the discussions about possible locations, or at least way stations, for the origin of R1b, and/or the Indo-European languages. I certainly could be wrong about that, though. Do you have any blogs in particular where he discussed the West Asian and Gedrosian relationship in more detail than in the one I linked to above? I'd love to read it...the whole topic is indeed a little murky.

    From what I can see in that analysis above, West Asian in the K=7b run, as expressed in k= 12b components, shows that West Asian as a combination of Caucasus and Gedrosian. (The modal for "West Asian" is variably either Georgia or the Adyghei. )

    K=12b Caucasus as expressed in K=7b components is what looks to be about 50-60% or so West Asian, about 30% Southern and about 10% Atlantic-Baltic.
    I will check my data for you.

    in regards to placing these names,
    West-asian is mesopotamia, and most of irak, western iran, going east from there is Gedroasian which is eastern iran, and then the last piece of eastern iran with southern pakistan is Baloucki. Some companies say the levant and anatolia are wes-asian as well......I am unsure.

    Is west-asian to you the caucasus as well or only for K7b?........i see as separate ( but not for K7b, they are the same, included)

    Soth-west asian is the arabian peninsula.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    my line is Trevisan and Trentin , you parma Line indicates an Emilian and northern Tuscan, maybe even Lucchese. The lombard and piedmontese would also fit to a degree.
    I agree the six % makes sense especially for you, deducting from atlantic to give to your southern




    I will check my data for you.

    in regards to placing these names,
    West-asian is mesopotamia, and most of irak, western iran, going east from there is Gedroasian which is eastern iran, and then the last piece of eastern iran with southern pakistan is Baloucki. Some companies say the levant and anatolia are wes-asian as well......I am unsure.

    Is west-asian to you the caucasus as well or only for K7b?........i see as separate ( but not for K7b, they are the same, included)

    Soth-west asian is the arabian peninsula.
    I'm sorry, I thought you said your mother's family was from Vicenza. I don't go into all the details when speaking with non-Italians, as I'm sure it generates total boredom and incomprehension, but to be precise, my father's lineages are all from Parma for at least the last 500 or so years. My mother's line is half from La Spezia, and half from the Lunigiana, (part of Massa Carrara) which has been "Tuscan" since the Medici got it, but which is more a blend of eastern Liguria and Emilia in terms of language, food, culture etc. The dialect is basically emiliano un po ligurizzato.

    Lucca (and Pisa), is quite different...and not only in terms of language etc., from the Lunigiana (especially the central and northern Lunigiana), more so from western Emilia, but even from the Fiorentini. If you look at the old anthropology maps of Italy, you can see it clearly. They're more "southern" than they should be, given their location. I think it may have something to do with their isolation behind the Apennines. You can sometimes track the north to south migrations by looking at where the major passes (and today the major roads) are located, and where they empty out onto the plain from the mountains. Of course, these distinctions hardly exist in today's Italy, given the massive emigration from south to north, but also within the north.

    Well, there's a difference between where these populations may have been during the Neolithic and where these components can be found, and in what percentage, in modern populations. There's been some good papers recently on the Levant, particularly on Christian versus Moslem populations there. You may have seen it. Anyway, the "West Asian" component declines as you go south from the Caucasus. (West Asian today, as I said, is modal in Georgians usually.) The Southwest Asian (which is modal in the Bedouin) declines as you go north. The Levant is a mix. I think the percentages would have varied depending on the period under discussion. That recent paper showed that Christian Levantines, who have not intermarried with the new influx of people from the south because of the Muslim incursions, are proportionately more West Asian than the Moslem Levantines. (They also don't have as much SSA, because they did not participate in the Arab slave trade.) It's not a one to one correspondence, but you could broadly see it as J2a versus J1e, although both probably originated around the Taurus mountains, but with J1e moving south early and then that founder event and drift expanding the J1e. Iraq is even *more* different today than what it was like in the Neolithic. A lot of southern Iraq was settled by Arabian tribes after the Muslim period started, so I don't think you're not going to find the original agriculturalists of the Neolithic in that area. Iran has changed too.

    This is why I keep harping on the fact that modern populations are only a poor approximation of ancient ones, although some are better than others. :)

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    Apropos of this discussion:
    http://www.dienekes.blogspot.com/201...an-barley.html

    We must have ESP...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'm sorry, I thought you said your mother's family was from Vicenza. I don't go into all the details when speaking with non-Italians, as I'm sure it generates total boredom and incomprehension, but to be precise, my father's lineages are all from Parma for at least the last 500 or so years. My mother's line is half from La Spezia, and half from the Lunigiana, (part of Massa Carrara) which has been "Tuscan" since the Medici got it, but which is more a blend of eastern Liguria and Emilia in terms of language, food, culture etc. The dialect is basically emiliano un po ligurizzato.

    Lucca (and Pisa), is quite different...and not only in terms of language etc., from the Lunigiana (especially the central and northern Lunigiana), more so from western Emilia, but even from the Fiorentini. If you look at the old anthropology maps of Italy, you can see it clearly. They're more "southern" than they should be, given their location. I think it may have something to do with their isolation behind the Apennines. You can sometimes track the north to south migrations by looking at where the major passes (and today the major roads) are located, and where they empty out onto the plain from the mountains. Of course, these distinctions hardly exist in today's Italy, given the massive emigration from south to north, but also within the north.
    to clarify, my mother was born in San Zenone dei Ezzelini, which is inside treviso region, but is the last town before crossing into Vicenza Region. San Zenone is 6k from Bassano di Grappa ( which is th efirst town in Vicenza region)

    Well, there's a difference between where these populations may have been during the Neolithic and where these components can be found, and in what percentage, in modern populations. There's been some good papers recently on the Levant, particularly on Christian versus Moslem populations there. You may have seen it. Anyway, the "West Asian" component declines as you go south from the Caucasus. (West Asian today, as I said, is modal in Georgians usually.) The Southwest Asian (which is modal in the Bedouin) declines as you go north. The Levant is a mix. I think the percentages would have varied depending on the period under discussion. That recent paper showed that Christian Levantines, who have not intermarried with the new influx of people from the south because of the Muslim incursions, are proportionately more West Asian than the Moslem Levantines. (They also don't have as much SSA, because they did not participate in the Arab slave trade.) It's not a one to one correspondence, but you could broadly see it as J2a versus J1e, although both probably originated around the Taurus mountains, but with J1e moving south early and then that founder event and drift expanding the J1e. Iraq is even *more* different today than what it was like in the Neolithic. A lot of southern Iraq was settled by Arabian tribes after the Muslim period started, so I don't think you're not going to find the original agriculturalists of the Neolithic in that area. Iran has changed too.

    This is why I keep harping on the fact that modern populations are only a poor approximation of ancient ones, although some are better than others. :)
    Since I am 100% European which makes me 2200 years in Europe, my goal is to find out for me where my line was before. So, if the Caucasus is west-asian admixture and to me the caucasus represents Europe ( of advise me if I am wrong ), then I am searching in the wrong place.
    Are the ossetians , west-asian admixture, what about Jordanians? .......i would really like to find out the borders of these admixtures.

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    Here are my (as one of the real representative of the Caucasus:)) data for K12b and K7b for comparison:

    Gedrosia 18.27%

    North_European 8.78%

    Southwest_Asian 6.82%

    East_Asian 1.14%

    Caucasus 64.96%

    1 Abhkasians (Yunusbayev) 8.32
    2 Georgians (Behar) 10.41
    3 Armenians (Behar) 11.61
    4 Armenians_15 (Yunusbayev) 14.24
    5 North_Ossetians (Yunusbayev) 14.58
    6 Adygei (HGDP) 14.74
    7 Balkars (Yunusbayev) 14.81
    8 Armenian (Dodecad) 15.33
    9 Georgia_Jews (Behar) 18.2
    10 Azerbaijan_Jews (Behar) 19.11


    West_Asian 60.16%

    Southern 28.92%

    Atlantic_Baltic 9.55%

    East_Asian 1.37%

    1 Georgians (Behar) 3.06
    2 Abhkasians (Yunusbayev) 5.05
    3 Kurds (Yunusbayev) 7.17
    4 Kurd (Dodecad) 7.56
    5 Armenians (Behar) 8.9
    6 Armenians_15 (Yunusbayev) 9.05
    7 Iranian (Dodecad) 9.8
    8 Iranians (Behar) 10.52
    9 Armenian (Dodecad) 11.21
    10 Uzbekistan_Jews (Behar) 11.8

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    K7b is a much reliable than K12b, and fits with the vast majority of experiments done so far.


    Mine:

    Atlantic Baltic 64.6 %

    Southern 30.1 %

    West Asian 3.3 %

    South Asian 1.9%

    Siberian 0.0 %

    East Asian 0.0 %

    African 0.0 %


    It is courious how South Asian shows up many times among Europeans, specially in the Globe13 analysis where I got a very similar figure. Dienekes' blogged time ago some of the West Asian segments are sometimes interpreted by the software as South Asian, since the later is quite similar to West Asian for obvious reasons. Anyways, that goes pretty much in line with other results and shows me incredibly close to the Aragonese samples. I guess other Catalans from little towns would get more or less the same.

    By the way, K12b shows 10% Caucasus, 3% Gedrosia, 2% South Asian...so I think it is very likely that at least this Caucasus component does not always reflect reality. Just remove it and then makes perfect sense with K7b.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    K7b is a much reliable than K12b, and fits with the vast majority of experiments done so far.


    Mine:

    Atlantic Baltic 64.6 %

    Southern 30.1 %

    West Asian 3.3 %

    South Asian 1.9%

    Siberian 0.0 %

    East Asian 0.0 %

    African 0.0 %


    It is courious how South Asian shows up many times among Europeans, specially in the Globe13 analysis where I got a very similar figure. Dienekes' blogged time ago some of the West Asian segments are sometimes interpreted by the software as South Asian, since the later is quite similar to West Asian for obvious reasons. Anyways, that goes pretty much in line with other results and shows me incredibly close to the Aragonese samples. I guess other Catalans from little towns would get more or less the same.

    By the way, K12b shows 10% Caucasus, 3% Gedrosia, 2% South Asian...so I think it is very likely that at least this Caucasus component does not always reflect reality. Just remove it and then makes perfect sense with K7b.
    Globe 13 or K12b are of better use for population genetics of the modern because it does differentiate between SW Asian and Mediterranean genes, though both components are close there is still a difference.

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    However, Maciamo I do not agree that Caucasus is the Neolithic farmer signal since it's absent in the much more Neolithic influenced West Europe.

    The Mediterranean or Southern component of the lower Ks from K7b is a much better candidate for Neolithic farmer signal.

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    ..................

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    K7b is a much reliable than K12b, and fits with the vast majority of experiments done so far.


    Mine:

    Atlantic Baltic 64.6 %

    Southern 30.1 %

    West Asian 3.3 %

    South Asian 1.9%

    Siberian 0.0 %

    East Asian 0.0 %

    African 0.0 %


    It is courious how South Asian shows up many times among Europeans, specially in the Globe13 analysis where I got a very similar figure. Dienekes' blogged time ago some of the West Asian segments are sometimes interpreted by the software as South Asian, since the later is quite similar to West Asian for obvious reasons. Anyways, that goes pretty much in line with other results and shows me incredibly close to the Aragonese samples. I guess other Catalans from little towns would get more or less the same.

    By the way, K12b shows 10% Caucasus, 3% Gedrosia, 2% South Asian...so I think it is very likely that at least this Caucasus component does not always reflect reality. Just remove it and then makes perfect sense with K7b.
    I 'm afraid none of the Dodecad poolings is good enough in itself and I think a 'Atlantic-Baltic' component is a nonsense according to my (modest) knowledge of anthropology, ancient as well as current - so we are obliged, waitning better, to combinne more or less the different poolings, trying to see were some names can abuse us about their genetical contents

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    Alan

    Maybe what is useless is a Southwest Asian component then. I've seen it many times in the Erogenes project: at lower resolution I have 5% aprox (the same as globe13), while increasing it I get 0% (identical to Dv3). So to my understanding, that is telling indeed Southwest Asian isn't particularly informative in terms of admixture, not even for Saudis for instance, who would get more East African instead of Southwest Asian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I 'm afraid none of the Dodecad poolings is good enough in itself and I think a 'Atlantic-Baltic' component is a nonsense according to my (modest) knowledge of anthropology, ancient as well as current - so we are obliged, waitning better, to combinne more or less the different poolings, trying to see were some names can abuse us about their genetical contents
    Maybe your knowledge on anthropology (I guess phenotypes and things like this) makes you think there are more differences in Europe than what really exists (genetically speaking). Europeans as whole are pretty homogeneous, so the more one splits components, the more one exposes to get strange results. However, some experiments in both Eurogenes and Dodecad were quite successful in that regard IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean by breaking down this unity of the "caucasian" element in northern Italy. That element is clinal in Italy, like virtually everything else; caucasus is 22.8 in northern Italy, about 28 in Tuscany and 36 or so in the south on this calculator.

    Within the north, the academic sample from Bergamo and the more general north Italian dodecad population have virtually the same amount of 'caucasus' component.

    The interesting thing, as I've mentioned before, is that Oetzi's caucasus component on the same calculator was also 22%, but Gok 4, also a Neolithic farmer, only had about 5%. So, does the caucasus component in Europe represent a later and slightly different Neolithic migration, and/or is this a sign of the beginning of the metal age migrations. After all, not only did Oetzi possess copper tools, but he had high arsenic levels in his blood, which indicate he probably was a copper worker, and let's not forget that metal working first moved from the east into the Balkans, and then later came east again with other migrations.

    As to the relationship between the Gedrosia and West Asian components, this is what Dienekes has to say about it:

    "Similarly, the West_Asian component (from K=7) is intermediate between the Caucasus and Gedrosia components; the Gedrosia component diverges in the direction of the Asian groups (not shown in this figure), and in particular of South Asians.

    Caucasus/West_Asian components are definitely not comparable across calculators, since 'dv3' used a "West European" category that the other calculators do not, and which was shifted toward West Asia relative to the other "East_European" component."

    As to the K=12 versus K=12b calculators, this is what he has to say: "The additional step of distant relative filtering may also have influenced overall component levels in some cases. Its overall effect is to preclude the creation of population-specific components. Such filtering did take place during 'dv3' for populations with known sets of apparently distantly related individuals (such as the HGDP Arab groups), but it was done with a uniform procedure across all populations in K12a/b."

    Different calculators were done at different times, and the later ones are going to both include more populations and be more refined that the earlier ones. Also, some calculators were created for specific purposes, such as the Globe 13, which was meant to clarify the issue of the SSA component in West Eurasians.

    His best explanation of the relationship between the Caucasus and West Asian components is here in his discussion discussion of K=7b versus K=12b:
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/09...decad-k7b.html

    Gedrosia is just Caucasus with a slice of South Asian. Perhaps a population from further south toward South Asia that picked up a lot of Caucasus during their stay in that area. When the Gedrosia component is not included, I think this is where the South Asian that people get comes from...
    OK as a whole
    when I was speaking about breaking down 'Caucasian' in North Italy, I was not speaking about the diverses components of this pooling but about the diverse subregions of Northern Italy I know has had a complicated history - not only ancient strata of different sources but also some more recent events and after that sedentarization and compartmentation by valleys etc... with autsomals we don't need too big sample by region but we need more regional samples -
    when I see to Dodecad runs, I found %s as diverging as 12-13 % to 26-27% concerning 'west-asian' in Northern Italy: and I suppose 'west-asian' contains AND 'gedrosian' AND 'cuacasian': very inequal indeed!!! so when I read %s as 22% or more...!?!
    but as you wrote elsewhere current northern Italians are not exactly the genuine ancient inhabitants: surely there is a big difference between ancestry of rural compared to urban population? i "studied" thousands of sportmen of whole Europe and I know sportmen, more yet in hard physical sports, are from rural extraction or lower classes of cities then often closer to ancient populations: I know N-Italians only by this way, surely I should be desappointed if I looked at today streets 'northerners' in Milano or elsewhere...concerning Ötzi, as said, he was surely a mix of diverses stratas of "Italians", where dominated perhaps Y-G and 'sardinian' (central mediterranean for me) but already he received "blood" from newcomers, as by S-East than by N-East so... subsequent NW ALps imiigrant in Italy could have send less 'caucasian' or 'west-asian' to speak less precisely
    for me the first agricultors-breeders were a mix where dominated 'sardinian' but other waves could have send a bit more 'caucasian' before even the metals - and maybe 'sardinian' had already begun to colonize S-W Europe at mesolithical time? 'caucasian' had a weight in the first I-E southern colonies in Europe (see the 'south-Caucasus element in Maykop and the Catacomb culture and surely in Ferghana - but a taste of 'caucasian' was present among some agriculturists - maybe the most of 'caucasian' came before the steppic people, through Anatolia and Bulgaria Romania with the first metals, but without I-E.
    I agree nevertheless 'sardinian' was the core of the first agriculturists (they are found at low level in slavic baltic lands) - the mesolithic ones would have been more on the 'basque' side (look at Scandinavians and Celts, and iberians too) - I know I bet a lot because 'sardinian' and 'basque' are very often grouped as 'mediterranean' or 'south-Europe' but so a part of 'basque' is comprise in 'N' or 'NW-europe'...
    have a good sunday


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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    OK as a whole
    when I was speaking about breaking down 'Caucasian' in North Italy, I was not speaking about the diverses components of this pooling but about the diverse subregions of Northern Italy I know has had a complicated history - not only ancient strata of different sources but also some more recent events and after that sedentarization and compartmentation by valleys etc... with autsomals we don't need too big sample by region but we need more regional samples -
    when I see to Dodecad runs, I found %s as diverging as 12-13 % to 26-27% concerning 'west-asian' in Northern Italy: and I suppose 'west-asian' contains AND 'gedrosian' AND 'cuacasian': very inequal indeed!!! so when I read %s as 22% or more...!?!
    but as you wrote elsewhere current northern Italians are not exactly the genuine ancient inhabitants: surely there is a big difference between ancestry of rural compared to urban population? i "studied" thousands of sportmen of whole Europe and I know sportmen, more yet in hard physical sports, are from rural extraction or lower classes of cities then often closer to ancient populations: I know N-Italians only by this way, surely I should be desappointed if I looked at today streets 'northerners' in Milano or elsewhere...concerning Ötzi, as said, he was surely a mix of diverses stratas of "Italians", where dominated perhaps Y-G and 'sardinian' (central mediterranean for me) but already he received "blood" from newcomers, as by S-East than by N-East so... subsequent NW ALps imiigrant in Italy could have send less 'caucasian' or 'west-asian' to speak less precisely
    for me the first agricultors-breeders were a mix where dominated 'sardinian' but other waves could have send a bit more 'caucasian' before even the metals - and maybe 'sardinian' had already begun to colonize S-W Europe at mesolithical time? 'caucasian' had a weight in the first I-E southern colonies in Europe (see the 'south-Caucasus element in Maykop and the Catacomb culture and surely in Ferghana - but a taste of 'caucasian' was present among some agriculturists - maybe the most of 'caucasian' came before the steppic people, through Anatolia and Bulgaria Romania with the first metals, but without I-E.
    I agree nevertheless 'sardinian' was the core of the first agriculturists (they are found at low level in slavic baltic lands) - the mesolithic ones would have been more on the 'basque' side (look at Scandinavians and Celts, and iberians too) - I know I bet a lot because 'sardinian' and 'basque' are very often grouped as 'mediterranean' or 'south-Europe' but so a part of 'basque' is comprise in 'N' or 'NW-europe'...
    have a good sunday

    Now I understand. From the results I have seen within northern Italy itself, the "West Asian" component does vary slightly, and the cline for that component in northern Italy is not north/south, but east to west. I think Maciamo's map is very informative in that way. I think it is related to the Balkans as intermediary. As you get into northwestern Piemonte, for example, it is slightly less. The relatively high levels of West Asian in north eastern Italians may very well comport with the rather surprising y dna results for that area in the latest papers, which shows rather more J2, E1b, G2a etc., than people were expecting.

    Other components vary more, I think, even within northern Italy, and those seem to vary on a north south cline. This would be the case, in this calculator, for the Atlantic/Baltic and Southern components.
    That's why I think Sile's and my results make sense. As a north east Italian, versus a generally half northwest Italian half Tuscan, he has the same amount of West Asian, but 6% more Atlantic/Baltic, which is taken from the southern component.

    You're very right in that not only different regions, bu also different sub-regions in Italy have had different migration histories, without even considering the population isolates. My father's people all come from one of those isolates, a group that was studied by Cavalli Sforza for decades, and which formed the basis for his seminal work. Unfortunately, that was before the days of y dna and mt dna and autosomal analysis. They might still have all the blood samples, though, so I live in hope. :)

    My mother lived in a more accessible region, but still relatively isolated. In that rural world, old divisions still remained. There was an observable gradient in terms of phenotype from the Mediterranean north along the river valley to the foothills of the Apennines that led to Emilia. The y dna distributions bear that out.

    I've had numerous discussions about why such divisions remained for so long in Italy. It's partly, of course, that it wasn't unified until so late, and so political divisions played their part. Geography, the high mountains that carve Italy into different sections, also played a part. To this day, going from west to east in Italy is difficult, more difficult than going north/south, because you have to cross the Apennines. Part of it is sort of inexplicable. To this day, Italians are a "commuting" people, so attached to their own "terra" that they will commute extraordinary distances in order to stay "home". Someone from Parma may work all week in Milano and come home on the week-ends, or arrange to go in three days a week, but the thought of moving one's "residence" is not part of the equation. Some of the lengths to which they'll go are extraordinary. It's ever been thus. It also explains the high rate of return of Italian migrants to other countries. In the U.S., it's the highest of all the immigrant groups, at least until lately.

    On the other hand, internal migration from the south has had an impact, and barriers are indeed breaking down somewhat. If population geneticists really want to figure it all out, they'd better get busy, and they'd better demand that all eight great-grandparents be from the same area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    to clarify, my mother was born in San Zenone dei Ezzelini, which is inside treviso region, but is the last town before crossing into Vicenza Region. San Zenone is 6k from Bassano di Grappa ( which is th efirst town in Vicenza region)



    Since I am 100% European which makes me 2200 years in Europe, my goal is to find out for me where my line was before. So, if the Caucasus is west-asian admixture and to me the caucasus represents Europe ( of advise me if I am wrong ), then I am searching in the wrong place.
    Are the ossetians , west-asian admixture, what about Jordanians? .......i would really like to find out the borders of these admixtures.

    If your ancestors have been in Europe for 2,000 years, I don't know what you could be other than European. In terms of the "Caucasus" component specifically, if the adna analysis of Oetzi is to be believed, this component has been in Europe for 5,000 years. How long does it take to become European?

    I think that it's helpful to keep in mind that these clusters are named for where they are modal geographically *today*. They don't represent any "pure" population which can be tied to any *specific* spot on the map. It's important to understand that each of them is composed of deeper layers of gene flow. It's also important to keep in mind that "West Asian" in one calculator is not necessarily "West Asian" in another calculator.

    In terms of the "Caucasus" K=12b component specifically, if analyzed in terms of the K=7b components, it is 55% West Asian, about 35% Southern, and about 10% Atlantic/Baltic.

    West Asian, when analyzed in terms of the K-12b components, turns out to be 60% Gedrosia, and 40% Caucasus. Gedrosia has two peaks, one in Baluchistan, and one in the Caucasus.
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/09...decad-k7b.html

    But then, if you want to peel the onion back on all these calculators, you only need to look at the analysis that Dienekes did in comparing World 9 and K=12b.
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/08...-k12b-and.html

    In that comparison, Atlantic Med is 90% Caucasus (10% North Euro), while North Euro itself is about 65% Atlantic/Med, 30% Gedrosian, and about 5% Siberian. If you consider that Gedrosia is Caucasus and Siberian in this analysis, then you add even more Caucasus to North European. North European is no more a "pure" genetic isolate than any of the others; it's just the cluster that is modal in Northern Europe today. (All of this explains the close relationship of "Northern" Europe and the "Caucasus" in terms of fst."

    In fact, if you look at the graphic, it supports the idea that wherever this "group" originated was indeed, as Dienekes has stated in the past, the "Womb of Nations" I just disagree with the position he's sometimes taken that it was located in the Caucasus itself. I still think the Caucasus was more of a refuge area than a source, although I will grant that as a refuge area, it may have preserved that cluster.

    (Anyone who is interested in Dienekes' "Womb of Nations" Theory just has to google search for it at his site. )

    The more I think about this whole Gedrosia business, the more I think it may indeed be linked with the sort of second wave of metal working, coming from western Iran or perhaps the southern Caucasus and then into Europe.
    Whether it's related to R1b, I don't know, and I also don't know how exactly it's related to the Indo-European languages.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    K7b is a much reliable than K12b, and fits with the vast majority of experiments done so far.


    Mine:

    Atlantic Baltic 64.6 %

    Southern 30.1 %

    West Asian 3.3 %

    South Asian 1.9%

    Siberian 0.0 %

    East Asian 0.0 %

    African 0.0 %


    It is courious how South Asian shows up many times among Europeans, specially in the Globe13 analysis where I got a very similar figure. Dienekes' blogged time ago some of the West Asian segments are sometimes interpreted by the software as South Asian, since the later is quite similar to West Asian for obvious reasons. Anyways, that goes pretty much in line with other results and shows me incredibly close to the Aragonese samples. I guess other Catalans from little towns would get more or less the same.

    By the way, K12b shows 10% Caucasus, 3% Gedrosia, 2% South Asian...so I think it is very likely that at least this Caucasus component does not always reflect reality. Just remove it and then makes perfect sense with K7b.
    i agree with you in respect to K7b.
    K12b is too diluted in markers which represent "noise"

    I wonder what influence south-asian via DougM is represented in Dodecad.

    I have 6 % of south-asian marker in my X chromosome bar ( the only place it appears) and he noted to me that if one is 100% european and south-asian appears in X it it used by himself and BGA to represent extreme eastern europe. I don't know if this has influence dodecad in any way in regards to europeans with south-asian marker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Alan

    Maybe what is useless is a Southwest Asian component then. I've seen it many times in the Erogenes project: at lower resolution I have 5% aprox (the same as globe13), while increasing it I get 0% (identical to Dv3). So to my understanding, that is telling indeed Southwest Asian isn't particularly informative in terms of admixture, not even for Saudis for instance, who would get more East African instead of Southwest Asian.
    Are you saying that south-west asian does not represent the arabian peninsula?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    OK as a whole
    when I was speaking about breaking down 'Caucasian' in North Italy, I was not speaking about the diverses components of this pooling but about the diverse subregions of Northern Italy I know has had a complicated history - not only ancient strata of different sources but also some more recent events and after that sedentarization and compartmentation by valleys etc... with autsomals we don't need too big sample by region but we need more regional samples -
    when I see to Dodecad runs, I found %s as diverging as 12-13 % to 26-27% concerning 'west-asian' in Northern Italy: and I suppose 'west-asian' contains AND 'gedrosian' AND 'cuacasian': very inequal indeed!!! so when I read %s as 22% or more...!?!
    but as you wrote elsewhere current northern Italians are not exactly the genuine ancient inhabitants: surely there is a big difference between ancestry of rural compared to urban population? i "studied" thousands of sportmen of whole Europe and I know sportmen, more yet in hard physical sports, are from rural extraction or lower classes of cities then often closer to ancient populations: I know N-Italians only by this way, surely I should be desappointed if I looked at today streets 'northerners' in Milano or elsewhere...concerning Ötzi, as said, he was surely a mix of diverses stratas of "Italians", where dominated perhaps Y-G and 'sardinian' (central mediterranean for me) but already he received "blood" from newcomers, as by S-East than by N-East so... subsequent NW ALps imiigrant in Italy could have send less 'caucasian' or 'west-asian' to speak less precisely
    for me the first agricultors-breeders were a mix where dominated 'sardinian' but other waves could have send a bit more 'caucasian' before even the metals - and maybe 'sardinian' had already begun to colonize S-W Europe at mesolithical time? 'caucasian' had a weight in the first I-E southern colonies in Europe (see the 'south-Caucasus element in Maykop and the Catacomb culture and surely in Ferghana - but a taste of 'caucasian' was present among some agriculturists - maybe the most of 'caucasian' came before the steppic people, through Anatolia and Bulgaria Romania with the first metals, but without I-E.
    I agree nevertheless 'sardinian' was the core of the first agriculturists (they are found at low level in slavic baltic lands) - the mesolithic ones would have been more on the 'basque' side (look at Scandinavians and Celts, and iberians too) - I know I bet a lot because 'sardinian' and 'basque' are very often grouped as 'mediterranean' or 'south-Europe' but so a part of 'basque' is comprise in 'N' or 'NW-europe'...
    have a good sunday

    IMO , north-east Italy was roughly influenced by people along the danube and sava rivers in very ancient times, while north-west italy had the galllic-liguri/helvetic influence . later in pre-roman times, gallic influence via migrations from modern southern france moved in and through northern italy as far as eastern slovenia and to vienna. The romans came after this.
    The linguistic terminology for northern italian languages is called Gallic-iberian, due to this long term influence by the gauls. central and southern Italy is termed Gallic-italic in language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    IMO , north-east Italy was roughly influenced by people along the danube and sava rivers in very ancient times, while north-west italy had the galllic-liguri/helvetic influence . later in pre-roman times, gallic influence via migrations from modern southern france moved in and through northern italy as far as eastern slovenia and to vienna. The romans came after this.
    The linguistic terminology for northern italian languages is called Gallic-iberian, due to this long term influence by the gauls. central and southern Italy is termed Gallic-italic in language.

    I'm not sure exactly what you mean by people from the Danube. There is, of course, whatever remained of the Paleolithic/Mesolithic stratum, represented in Liguria by the Arena Candide caves, and then you would have the Neolithic peoples. The Neolithic culture in Italy is, however, not Danubian, i.e. derived from LBK, but Cardial.

    You can see it in the map here:
    http://images.wikia.com/ceramica/ima..._en_Europa.png

    Or here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Boians.png

    The Eupedia map is not very different.

    It seems to have followed the coastlines of both the Balkans and Italy, and then moved into the interior. (and other areas of the northern Mediterranean as well)

    After that you would have Bronze Age Italic people, i.e. Indo-Europeans. One theory does hold that the languages were carried by a folk movement that spread up the Danube, but after entering Italy they moved throughout the peninsula wherever Italic languages were spoken. According to most theories, the Ligures may have been an earlier branch of Indo-Europeans, speaking something close to an Italic-Celtic, perhaps. From everything I was taught, Venetic is similarly an Indo-European language with Celtic affinities. There is nothing as of yet to tell us their y dna signatures, much less their autosomal component.

    Finally, you do have the Gallic migrations of the first millennium B.C., which are usually held to have entered Italy from the north or northwest, although there are some sources who hold that some tribes, like the Boii, entered Italy from the area of modern Bohemia. The Wiki article on the Boii isn't bad, in my opinion, as it doesn't assert a certainty which it is impossible to have at the present time. This map shows what I mean.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Boians.png

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'm not sure exactly what you mean by people from the Danube. There is, of course, whatever remained of the Paleolithic/Mesolithic stratum, represented in Liguria by the Arena Candide caves, and then you would have the Neolithic peoples. The Neolithic culture in Italy is, however, not Danubian, i.e. derived from LBK, but Cardial.

    You can see it in the map here:
    http://images.wikia.com/ceramica/ima..._en_Europa.png
    From what I was taught, water travel was the easier and safer mode, for naturally drinking water and because no road system. When I said along, i meant traveled via

    Or here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Boians.png

    The Eupedia map is not very different.

    It seems to have followed the coastlines of both the Balkans and Italy, and then moved into the interior. (and other areas of the northern Mediterranean as well)
    what period is this? is it late bronze ie Mycenae times?

    After that you would have Bronze Age Italic people, i.e. Indo-Europeans. One theory does hold that the languages were carried by a folk movement that spread up the Danube, but after entering Italy they moved throughout the peninsula wherever Italic languages were spoken. According to most theories, the Ligures may have been an earlier branch of Indo-Europeans, speaking something close to an Italic-Celtic, perhaps. From everything I was taught, Venetic is similarly an Indo-European language with Celtic affinities. There is nothing as of yet to tell us their y dna signatures, much less their autosomal component.
    On venetic, the 2012 paper from Uni of Heidelberg states an old language replaced by celtic and later accepting Latin

    Our analysis has reached exactly this conclusion concerning areal phenomena shared between Venetic and Italic with the result that Northern Adriatic Venetic occupies an intermediate position on the traditional classificatory parameters, but belongs to the Celtic type on the basis of the phonological patterning (including lenition in the consonant system based on the tense vs, lax opposition). This fact, combined with morphology which can be identified as Celtic, leads to the conclusion that Northern
    Adriatic Venetic was a variety of Celtic which was subject to areal common developments with
    Italic in the phonology and the lexicon, but remained entirely Celtic in the grammar.

    I am unsure what period they talk about as the venetic have been in Veneto area from archeological finds from 1100BC


    Finally, you do have the Gallic migrations of the first millennium B.C., which are usually held to have entered Italy from the north or northwest, although there are some sources who hold that some tribes, like the Boii, entered Italy from the area of modern Bohemia. The Wiki article on the Boii isn't bad, in my opinion, as it doesn't assert a certainty which it is impossible to have at the present time. This map shows what I mean.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Boians.png
    my initial studies stated the Boii came firstly from modern Alsace. I need to revisit these.



    My world 9 ................similar to K7b
    Admix Results:

    # Population Percent
    1 Amerindian 0.00
    2 East_Asian 0.06
    3 African 0.19
    4 Atlantic_Baltic 56.29
    5 Australasian 0.00
    6 Siberian 0.00
    7 Caucasus_Gedrosia 17.20
    8 Southern 25.49
    9 South_Asian 0.78


    Pct. Calc. Option 1

    1 N_Italian 92.05%
    2 Mordovians 3.99%
    3 Kalash 2.25%
    4 Lezgins 1.51%
    5 Romanians 0.15%
    6 Greek 0.03%
    7 O_Italian 0.01%
    8 S_Italian 0.01%
    9 Chechens 0.00%
    10 Pathan 0.00%

    Total RMSD: 0.269527

    see the veneti link for the latest on venetic people

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    From what I was taught, water travel was the easier and safer mode, for naturally drinking water and because no road system. When I said along, i meant traveled via



    what period is this? is it late bronze ie Mycenae times?


    On venetic, the 2012 paper from Uni of Heidelberg states an old language replaced by celtic and later accepting Latin

    Our analysis has reached exactly this conclusion concerning areal phenomena shared between Venetic and Italic with the result that Northern Adriatic Venetic occupies an intermediate position on the traditional classificatory parameters, but belongs to the Celtic type on the basis of the phonological patterning (including lenition in the consonant system based on the tense vs, lax opposition). This fact, combined with morphology which can be identified as Celtic, leads to the conclusion that Northern
    Adriatic Venetic was a variety of Celtic which was subject to areal common developments with
    Italic in the phonology and the lexicon, but remained entirely Celtic in the grammar.

    I am unsure what period they talk about as the venetic have been in Veneto area from archeological finds from 1100BC




    my initial studies stated the Boii came firstly from modern Alsace. I need to revisit these.



    My world 9 ................similar to K7b
    Admix Results:

    # Population Percent
    1 Amerindian 0.00
    2 East_Asian 0.06
    3 African 0.19
    4 Atlantic_Baltic 56.29
    5 Australasian 0.00
    6 Siberian 0.00
    7 Caucasus_Gedrosia 17.20
    8 Southern 25.49
    9 South_Asian 0.78


    Pct. Calc. Option 1

    1 N_Italian 92.05%
    2 Mordovians 3.99%
    3 Kalash 2.25%
    4 Lezgins 1.51%
    5 Romanians 0.15%
    6 Greek 0.03%
    7 O_Italian 0.01%
    8 S_Italian 0.01%
    9 Chechens 0.00%
    10 Pathan 0.00%

    Total RMSD: 0.269527

    see the veneti link for the latest on venetic people

    I'm guilty of using "Italic" in the broadest possible sense. I'll correct the post above. The Indo-Europeans are generally held to have migrated into Italy sometime around 3,000 B.C. In my opinion, there's some fiddling with the dates to accommodate various theories, i.e. to try to fit it with a Yamnaya movement from the steppes. Since this theory traditionally connects metal working with the Indo-Europeans, there's the additional problem that Oetzi used a copper ax of Remedello style (and had arsenic in his blood) and he is dated to 3300 B.C. So, you either push the Indo-European migration back to the Copper Age, and a G2a Sardinian like Oetzi is part of it, or you push it forward to the beginnings of the Bronze Age. Then, the languages have to be fit into the scheme. This is why I'm rather an agnostic about all of this.

    This article in Wiki is obviously a work in progress. It needs a lot more detail, but the only thing with which I disagree is the statement at the end that Ligurian is not an Indo-European language. The latest papers seem to indicate that it is, although the people speaking it, or speaking any of these languages, would possess an earlier Neolithic substrate.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_peoples_of_Italy

    Sorry, all of this belongs on a different thread. :)

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