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Thread: New map of Caucasian autosomal admixtures in Europe and the Middle East

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Are you saying that south-west asian does not represent the arabian peninsula?
    No. What I'm saying is that this component is slightly East African shifted, but still incredibly similar to Mediterranean. Hence small amounts are likely to be misinterpreted by the software, while huge percents on the other hand hide the aforementioned shift.

    I think the k10a run, even if there's not an East African component, but a Red Sea one instead, is quite ilustrative regarding the issue, and shows interesting results in the Arabian Peninsula when Southwest Asian is not included.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    i agree with you in respect to K7b.
    K12b is too diluted in markers which represent "noise"
    My opinion as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I wonder what influence south-asian via DougM is represented in Dodecad.
    Difficult question. I had no South Asian in that test, so I don't know what to make of it.

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    True, World9 is pretty similar to K7b:

    Atlantic-Baltic: 67.2 %

    Southern: 28.0 %

    Caucasus/Gedrosia: 2.8 %

    South Asian: 1.8 %

    Amerindian: 0.2%

    East Asian: 0.0%

    Siberian: 0.0%

    African: 0.0%

    Australasian: 0.0%

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    In trying to make sense of all of Dienekes' calculators, I try to keep in mind that as much as I enjoy breaking down my own ancestry, the calculators were created in an attempt to unravel the population genetics of Europe. We consumers are beneficiaries of his experiments, but they weren't done for us.

    So, if someone is trying to understand the movement of population groups from North Africa into Europe, the calculators that contain that cluster are important. (Individuals might also want a way to estimate the influence of those groups on their own genetic make-up).

    Similarly, the Globe 13 seems to me to be the best for pulling out the SSA in Europeans.

    In this blogpost, there is an explanation of the progression of the calculators and what they are examining.

    So, using the different calculators of the Dodecad Project, we first have (K7) a contrast between Africa and West Eurasia, then a signal of the shared ancestry between Arabia and East Africa (K10), and finally, strong signals of local ancestry in the two regions.

    Also, K=7 shows North Africa as predominantly West Eurasian with an added African component, K10 shows Mediterranean as modal in Sardinians once again, but also shows it as part of North Africa, and k=12 shows that the Atlantic Med and North West African clusters have formed.

    In terms of the Southwest Asian component, it would be very difficult to do any analysis of the Levant or the greater Middle East without looking at the proportions of Southwest Asian versus West Asian in these populations. That there is a cline in these populations, not only in terms of a north/south gradient, but in terms of religious affiliation, is pretty clearly indicated in this relatively new paper: Haber et al, Genome Wide Diversity in the Levant.
    http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/...l.pgen.1003316

    And discussed here: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/03...-haber-et.html

    In terms of the Caucasus component, the whole point was to see, I think, if Gedrosia could be isolated, at a higher K level, from the West Asian, and use it to possibly track the movements of the "Indo-European" peoples.

    In terms of individual results, I always look at the FST number in the original Oracle program for these runs. The lower it is, obviously, the more it has captured my individual variation. For analysis of the population genetics of Italy, they're all valuable, as they all produce valuable insights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Maciamo, I'm a bit surprised by the 'spot' of 'caucasian' in Guipuzcoa (I believe), lost among a region where 'caucasian' is poor enough - in Iberia
    @MOESAN: I don't see any Caucasus spot there in Basque, but exactly a hole. Maybe you have confused the grey color with a greenish spot? The dark green and grey can be easily confused if the area is small.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    @MOESAN: I don't see any Caucasus spot there in Basque, but exactly a hole. Maybe you have confused the grey color with a greenish spot? The dark green and grey can be easily confused if the area is small.
    OK you're right El Horsto: my great age! my IO screen was not well positioned! like that, it is very more logical! you are my eyes!
    when I compare the two maps, (I know some frontiers are artificial by lack of regional accurate data) I constate a very different distribution of these two autosomals components whatever the way they were composed - as others here I believe (even if I know other minor moves mixed more the different components) that the most of 'caucasian' in western Europe is from Neolithic agricultors and breeders - becuse I'm on it, I add southern Italians show being somewhat more 'greek' than the Greeks themselves (late Slavic influence on N-Greeks?) - later Helladic (Egea-W-Anatolia) and Greek colonies brought some more 'caucasian' but not so much?
    'caucasian' seems not too strong in megalithic zones of Atlantic shores (with some exceptions)
    'gedrosia' is very more occidental and artic in Europe, except the S-E regions close to Anatolia-Near-Eastern - Slavs had erased the few contained in N-E Europe (I'm almost sure they came through North) - a map showing the quotient 'gedrosia'/'gedrosia'+'caucasus' would prove very much more! the mix 'gedrosia-''caucasus' abuses us today - I believe in ancient times they were more separated...
    what is curious, 'gedrosia' is strong among Neo-Celts and Basques, and in some part too among Germans (I-E? pre-I-E? only partly indoeuropeanized?) and in regions were mt H1+H3 are strong too (as recent Y-R1b) - matter to discuss, I think (the challenge is open)
    I red 'long barrows' megalithic settlements (maybe part of a greater megalithic movement) were denser in Britain and North Sea shores + S-Scania (they were a mighty component in Funnelbeaker culture, they did not go back in front of Corded people) - they were surely the heirs of the FIRST MEGALITHS found in Europe, all of them in North-West around the 4000 BC!) - a mighty human group if I judge on the dense and numerous megalithic areas - inFrance the southern megaliths were said to be come down from N-W (I don't know if it still holds ...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    OK you're right El Horsto: my great age! my IO screen was not well positioned! like that, it is very more logical! you are my eyes!
    when I compare the two maps, (I know some frontiers are artificial by lack of regional accurate data) I constate a very different distribution of these two autosomals components whatever the way they were composed - as others here I believe (even if I know other minor moves mixed more the different components) that the most of 'caucasian' in western Europe is from Neolithic agricultors and breeders - becuse I'm on it, I add southern Italians show being somewhat more 'greek' than the Greeks themselves (late Slavic influence on N-Greeks?) - later Helladic (Egea-W-Anatolia) and Greek colonies brought some more 'caucasian' but not so much?
    'caucasian' seems not too strong in megalithic zones of Atlantic shores (with some exceptions)
    'gedrosia' is very more occidental and artic in Europe, except the S-E regions close to Anatolia-Near-Eastern - Slavs had erased the few contained in N-E Europe (I'm almost sure they came through North) - a map showing the quotient 'gedrosia'/'gedrosia'+'caucasus' would prove very much more! the mix 'gedrosia-''caucasus' abuses us today - I believe in ancient times they were more separated...
    what is curious, 'gedrosia' is strong among Neo-Celts and Basques, and in some part too among Germans (I-E? pre-I-E? only partly indoeuropeanized?) and in regions were mt H1+H3 are strong too (as recent Y-R1b) - matter to discuss, I think (the challenge is open)
    I red 'long barrows' megalithic settlements (maybe part of a greater megalithic movement) were denser in Britain and North Sea shores + S-Scania (they were a mighty component in Funnelbeaker culture, they did not go back in front of Corded people) - they were surely the heirs of the FIRST MEGALITHS found in Europe, all of them in North-West around the 4000 BC!) - a mighty human group if I judge on the dense and numerous megalithic areas - inFrance the southern megaliths were said to be come down from N-W (I don't know if it still holds ...)
    I agree with most of what you say. Especially the Gedrosia/Cacuasus ratio seems really like a hot trace, whereas southern european Caucasus admixture has to be interpreted differently as you say.
    Some remarks:
    - I think it is possible that also the Caucasus admix in Balts and Slavs could be of neolithic origin, just more indirectly (perhaps via iranic tribes like Antes).
    - The relation of H1/H3 to R1b is tempting but I'd be cautious because H1/H3 presence in europe is probably older than R1b. I think there are at least two interesting autosomal candidates to consider here: Gedrosian (R1b?) and Atlantic_med (H1/H3?).
    - You think of possible Gedrosian introduction to Funnelbeakers from Megalith peoples, but so far the only Funnelbeaker sample which I know (Gok4) has zero Gedrosian admix. This strongly suggests a later appearance of Gedrosian.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I evocated 'Long Barrows'in this thread to stay open, for their geographic localizations - I don't hold it for a proof of 'gedrosia' component among them... By the way I said I thought 'L-B' played a role in the funnelbeaker complex but were not the creating core of this culture, and they stayed a coastal population and I don't think they had an heavy demic imput in all the regions covered by Funnelbeaker culture that surely involved also more continental peasants (accultured mesolithical people remnants + post LBK people, maybe interations with the 'Globular Amphores' culture) - rheir influence could have been more cultural than demic so concerning Gok4...
    I think too mt H1-H3 could be older in W-Europe than 'gedrosia' and than y-R1b whatever the links we could imagine between both last ones (knowing nevertheless autosomals an Y-HGs are distincts at individual level)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The Caucasian admixture looks more Neolithic (matching particularly well G2a + J1xP58 + J2) and is high among Slavs, but nearly absent in Northwest Europe as well as among the Basques.
    Well, maybe, I'm the exception that proves the rule!
    All my ancestors came from eastern Britany and Maine (Mayenne+Sarthe) in France.
    In K12b I have 13.04% Caucasus (France 8.4%).
    In K12a I have 11.46% East European (France 3.9%), a portion of which is transfered, at K12B, in North Europe and Caucasus ..


    I wonder if U4 mdtna is not related to the Caucasian admixture?
    Myself, i am U4, and there is a high percentage U4 in Maine (11% in the Sarthe by Richard 2007).
    It is possible that there are isolates Caucasians admixtures in Western Europe, as studies, very fragmented, have not yet demonstrated!

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    Quote Originally Posted by gervais View Post
    Well, maybe, I'm the exception that proves the rule!
    All my ancestors came from eastern Britany and Maine (Mayenne+Sarthe) in France.
    In K12b I have 13.04% Caucasus (France 8.4%).
    In K12a I have 11.46% East European (France 3.9%), a portion of which is transfered, at K12B, in North Europe and Caucasus ..


    I wonder if U4 mdtna is not related to the Caucasian admixture?
    Myself, i am U4, and there is a high percentage U4 in Maine (11% in the Sarthe by Richard 2007).
    It is possible that there are isolates Caucasians admixtures in Western Europe, as studies, very fragmented, have not yet demonstrated!
    That is odd indeed. The Caucasian admixture might be a remnant of Neolithic ancestry, perhaps higher in Brittany than in the rest of France.

    Your high East European admixture is actually in line with the percentages observed along the English Channel, from Normandy to Belgium. So you might have more Germanic ancestry (especially Norman) than the average for Brittany.


    The origin of your U4 could be Mesolithic European (I, R1a), Indo-European (R1a or R1b), either Celtic or more recent Germanic invaders. It's probably not Neolithic though. The U4 in the Caucasus is linked to the Indo-Europeans.
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by gervais View Post
    Well, maybe, I'm the exception that proves the rule!
    All my ancestors came from eastern Britany and Maine (Mayenne+Sarthe) in France.
    In K12b I have 13.04% Caucasus (France 8.4%).
    In K12a I have 11.46% East European (France 3.9%), a portion of which is transfered, at K12B, in North Europe and Caucasus ..


    I wonder if U4 mdtna is not related to the Caucasian admixture?
    Myself, i am U4, and there is a high percentage U4 in Maine (11% in the Sarthe by Richard 2007).
    It is possible that there are isolates Caucasians admixtures in Western Europe, as studies, very fragmented, have not yet demonstrated!
    can you do me a favour and run the new Eurogenes K13 in gedmatch, as your K12a and K12b are very similar to my data numbers.

    these are my K13 below
    # Population Percent
    1 North_Atlantic 29.98
    2 West_Med 23.08
    3 East_Med 17.3
    4 Baltic 16.99
    5 West_Asian 8.11
    6 Red_Sea 2.29
    7 South_Asian 1.16
    8 East_Asian 0.56
    9 Sub-Saharan 0.31
    10 Oceanian 0.22


    you are from brittany......strabo states brittany is veneti area...same people as adriatic veneti
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    the old populations having lived for a long time in big towns are very well mixed it is evident, but a local rural level, the big countries and even the regions are far to be "level" , they show differences in percentages of mixed types on short distances (two factors: ancient differences of colonizators and recent drifts by isolation (short endogamy) - archaïc types are seen in some districts neighbouring other districts where they are absent -
    For I believe I know Brittany (West particuliarly) received few of the neolithic peasants compared to more eastern or southern neighbours - in Anjou, there WERE differences between districts (more "neolithical" in North and near the Loire, as well for 'danubian' and 'cardial-baumes-chaudes' types, less in the 'bocage' district of the "Mauges" where I think there are a more 'cromagnon' and 'cromagnoid-borreby-like' imput, by instance (this corner is close to the eastern breton Loire-Atlantique departement, with some similitudes for populations) -
    the ancient studies about skeletons were biased to too much "subtypes" but the 20°Century ones were (in opposition) doing too much rough means for human types - I never heard speaking about regional types in Spain, nevertheless some regions seem showing a bit of 'archaïc' types too ('cromagnon' + 'cromagnoid-borreby' also, seeming not too rare among people of Murcia, by example) - Portugal too (more on the C-Capelle types sometimes) - the studies concerning the sitting-height upon total height or the span show too some neat differences between some regions but were not very often taken in account compared to the eternal cephalic index or statures mean ... -
    so: the autosomals surveys will be efficient when they will be done not on a globally high amount of people but rather on well distinct (regionally, culturally) small groups which ancestry is certain: the number of genes implied is so big that we don't need a huge number, spite what someones think - but all what I say here will become out of play before long because the people of today are marrying all over the world - it becomes urgent!

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    I just add that at last Neolithical period in France, some intrusions of Cardial "types" (with a new mediterranean subtype 'baumes-chaudes') followed the garonne river from Mediterranea and reached E-Poitou and surroundings BUT lived poor remnants in Gwascoigne West the Garonne: an example - it is true it is old but...

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    So the Enetoi were either paphlagonian Turks or linked to some form of pottery from Turkmenistan, but I just can't shake the similarity between ancient armorica's Veneti and north-east Italy's Veneti, there must be some Celtic link as the nearby Carni were celts and I suspect they descended from the carnutes Gauls.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    That is odd indeed. The Caucasian admixture might be a remnant of Neolithic ancestry, perhaps higher in Brittany than in the rest of France.

    Your high East European admixture is actually in line with the percentages observed along the English Channel, from Normandy to Belgium. So you might have more Germanic ancestry (especially Norman) than the average for Brittany.


    The origin of your U4 could be Mesolithic European (I, R1a), Indo-European (R1a or R1b), either Celtic or more recent Germanic invaders. It's probably not Neolithic though. The U4 in the Caucasus is linked to the Indo-Europeans.
    Yes, I also think that U4 is probably very old, and it has not been recently bring in the north-west of France.
    Britany has been hit by two invasions in Neolithic: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...olithique_.png

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    can you do me a favour and run the new Eurogenes K13 in gedmatch, as your K12a and K12b are very similar to my data numbers.

    these are my K13 below
    # Population Percent
    1 North_Atlantic 29.98
    2 West_Med 23.08
    3 East_Med 17.3
    4 Baltic 16.99
    5 West_Asian 8.11
    6 Red_Sea 2.29
    7 South_Asian 1.16
    8 East_Asian 0.56
    9 Sub-Saharan 0.31
    10 Oceanian 0.22


    you are from brittany......strabo states brittany is veneti area...same people as adriatic veneti
    I do not subscribe to gedmatch. I prefer the "Do it yourself" of Dodecad!
    But I am less mediterranean than the French average.
    I made a graph for the 3 models of Dodecad, comparing me to the French average:
    comparaisonmodele.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by gervais View Post
    Yes, I also think that U4 is probably very old, and it has not been recently bring in the north-west of France.
    Britany has been hit by two invasions in Neolithic: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...olithique_.png
    Right - but this map (as other maps) shows the maximal extension of cultural expansion, but does not say anything about demic density of these cultures "initiators" nor even their density of cultural implantation -I hold saying Brittany received few men of the original centers of these 2 neolithical cultures : Cardial left more human remnants in western and southern France a sa whole than in Brittany and "Rubané" people left more human remnants in Alsace/Elsass or Normandy than in Brittany

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Right - but this map (as other maps) shows the maximal extension of cultural expansion, but does not say anything about demic density of these cultures "initiators" nor even their density of cultural implantation -I hold saying Brittany received few men of the original centers of these 2 neolithical cultures : Cardial left more human remnants in western and southern France a sa whole than in Brittany and "Rubané" people left more human remnants in Alsace/Elsass or Normandy than in Brittany

    It's true, of course, that it's often unclear how much demic involvement there is in any given cultural expansion. That said, what evidence leads you to believe that Brittany didn't receive substantial members from the centers of these two neolithic cultures? Or at least significant gene flow via their descendents, descendents who, at least outside the Balkans, seemed to engage in a rather limited amount of inter-marriage with the locals, thereby preserving their genetic signatures.

    I'm waiting to see the actual paper, but if the abstract is correct, this four thousand year old farmer from Burgos (2,000 B.C.) is much the same as the farmer from Sweden, who is much the same as the farmer from the Tyrol. Yes, Gok 4 may have mixed a little more with the prior inhabitants, but basically, farmers from very widely separated areas of Europe share a remarkable genetic similarity.

    http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/rec...d=diva2:665597
    The spread of farming, the neolithisation process, swept over Europe after the advent of the farming lifestyle in the near east approximately 11,000 years ago. However the mode of transmission and its impact on the demographic patterns of Europe remains largely unknown. In this study we obtained : 66,476,944 bp of genomic DNA from the remains of a 4000 year old Neolithic farmer from the site of El Portalón, 15 km east of Burgos, Spain. We compared the genomic signature of this individual to modern-day populations as well as the few Neolithic individuals that has produced large-scale autosomal data. The Neolithic Portalón individual is genetically most similar to southern Europeans, similar to a Scandinavian Neolithic farmer and the Tyrolean Iceman. In contrast, the Neolithic Portalón individual displays little affinity to two Mesolithic samples from the near-by area, La Brana, demonstrating a distinct change in population history between 7,000 and 4,000 years ago for the northern Iberian Peninsula.

    I think it's important to remember how few H/G's there were in Europe when the First Farmers arrived. I don't think it's analogous to the situation in Mexico or South America, where the rise of agriculture had led to the growth of large populations in certain areas.

    Whatever more H/G or more northeastern input contributed to the genome of Europeans would not seem to have arrived in Iberia, for example, until perhaps 1600 B.C. where it made less of an impact than in Central Europe and the Isles perhaps because the central European and Isles farming communities had collapsed due to some combination of climate change, environmental collapse because of over use of the soil, the fact that the Neolithic package of the time was not yet appropriate for the climate and soils of the area, or even that some newcomers from the steppe brought with them some particularly nasty plague, as they did many times thereafter.

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