Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 68

Thread: New map of Caucasian autosomal admixtures in Europe and the Middle East

  1. #1
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,732
    Points
    718,984
    Level
    100
    Points: 718,984, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 38.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    2 members found this post helpful.

    Arrow New map of Caucasian autosomal admixtures in Europe and the Middle East

    After the map of Gedrosian admixture I found it would be interesting to compare the distribution of the 'Caucasus' admixture in the same K12b. Although both peak around West Asia and South Asia, the frequency inside Europe is completely different. The Caucasian admixture looks more Neolithic (matching particularly well G2a + J1xP58 + J2) and is high among Slavs, but nearly absent in Northwest Europe as well as among the Basques. In contrast, the Gedrosian is virtually absent in Slavs but is the highest in Northwest Europe among Europeans and appears linked to the diffusion of R1b lineages.

    It's also interesting how the Caucasian admixture is so unevenly spread within Spain (unlike any other country).



    My book selection---Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  2. #2
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    16,236
    Points
    335,712
    Level
    100
    Points: 335,712, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    After the map of Gedrosian admixture I found it would be interesting to compare the distribution of the 'Caucasus' admixture in the same K12b. Although both peak around West Asia and South Asia, the frequency inside Europe is completely different. The Caucasian admixture looks more Neolithic (matching particularly well G2a + J1xP58 + J2) and is high among Slavs, but nearly absent in Northwest Europe as well as among the Basques. In contrast, the Gedrosian is virtually absent in Slavs but is the highest in Northwest Europe among Europeans and appears linked to the diffusion of R1b lineages.

    It's also interesting how the Caucasian admixture is so unevenly spread within Spain (unlike any other country).



    I agree that at least some of the Caucasus is Neolithic, although I think that the Mediterranean component is also very significant, unless it should be found, for example, that Mesolithic samples from the Balkans already contained it. Also, the southwest Asian was present in the earliest Neolithic farmers.

    Once again, the analysis of Oetzi and Gok 4, including one based on the K=12b calculator.
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/04...neolithic.html

    The most likely explanation for the differing Caucasus numbers for Oetzi and Gok 4 might be that there were various Neolithic migrations, from slightly different areas, and at slightly different times.

    I find it interesting that Otzi's numbers for Caucasus and S.W.Asian are so similar to the numbers of current North Italians and Tuscans. It's the other components that have changed in the last five thousand years.

  3. #3
    Noman
    Guest


    Those two shouldn't expect to be related, and mountains are generally a refugium.

    The caucasian is probably neolithic farmers and gedrosian migratory people who move around a bit. Note that they are not descended from gedrosians or anything, just have had contact with them, or contact with people who contacted them etc. as happens in a cultural exchange. You can see this in all peoples with their neighbors.

  4. #4
    Viscount Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    10-06-12
    Posts
    354
    Points
    8,431
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,431, Level: 27
    Level completed: 47%, Points required for next Level: 319
    Overall activity: 8.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-BY593
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2

    Country: Canada-Ontario



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Thanks for posting nice maps.R1b L23x[51] is also found at elevated levels in the region between the two darkened regions of Gedrosia and Caucasus component. Armenian Syunik-Karabakh region and ancient Iranian tribes[Medes] Northwestern Iranian language; Old Azeri, Gilacki, Talysh, and Luri.

  5. #5
    Banned Achievements:
    OverdriveThree FriendsVeteran10000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651
    Points
    15,622
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,622, Level: 37
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    Of all West Asian/Near Eastern groups Iranic Kurds and Persians have the highest amount of this component. 3000 years ago the Medes Persians & Parthians were very closely related to each other. Even 3000 years later we can see that Kurds (modern descendants of the Medes) and Persians have almost the same amount of this component. Persian and Kurdish populations are still very close to each other. This means that Kurds & Persians didn't changed a lot in the last 3000 years and also that ancient Iranic tribes were for the important part Gedrosian, since this Gedrosian component is very high among all Iranic nations, even in South & Central Asia. Ancient proto-Iranians were West Asian/Gedrosian!

  6. #6
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered
    Fire Haired's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-06-13
    Posts
    689
    Points
    4,121
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,121, Level: 18
    Level completed: 68%, Points required for next Level: 129
    Overall activity: 42.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Df27(Spain)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2(Prussia)

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic, Latino(~6%)
    Country: USA - California



    Macimao dont u think there is a reason why Italy and Greece have so much more mid eastern than the rest of Europe. every aust dna test i have looked at Italy and Greece will have over 3-4 times as much mid eastern groups as the rest of Europe. The more south u go in Italy the higher it gets. Y DNa J also seems to be most popular in Europe around Italy and Greece. Also southeast Europe around Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Romania area have high amounts but less than Greece they also have more E V13 and J than the rest of Europe. I think there is defintley a connection with hg E V13 and J1-J2 and amount of mid eastern blood in diff europeans. Alo I think the reason that Italy and Greece have so much more mid eastern blood than the rest of Europe is because of the ancient Greco Roman world not the Neolithic age.

    Sradine people are true Neolithic west europeans they are probably close to 100% from the people that spread farming acroos Europe. They probably formed form a mix of European and the mid eastern farmers. I would guess that Sardine people orignalley lived in Italy over 6,000 years ago they have much less mid eastern than Italians that is evidence the high amount of mid eastern blood in Italy came after the Neolithic age. There is a connection with the Roman empire and Y DNA J2 in Europe i think alot of Y DNA J in Europe mainly Italy, Greece, and south east Europe came in the Greco Roman age.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    14-10-11
    Posts
    1,048
    Points
    9,076
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,076, Level: 28
    Level completed: 55%, Points required for next Level: 274
    Overall activity: 13.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    Yes
    MtDNA haplogroup
    Yes

    Ethnic group
    German
    Country: Germany



    In Balkans and Italy the Caucasus admixture it is certainly neolithic because Atlantic_med is very high too. But the very low Atlantic_med in Balts and north-Slavs suggests that their Caucasus admixture is from a different source, maybe satem-speaking indo-europeans.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered
    Fire Haired's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-06-13
    Posts
    689
    Points
    4,121
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,121, Level: 18
    Level completed: 68%, Points required for next Level: 129
    Overall activity: 42.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Df27(Spain)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2(Prussia)

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic, Latino(~6%)
    Country: USA - California



    Goga proto Indo Iranian speakers came from Russia. They came out of Yamna culture and migrated acroos central asia eventulley had alot of contact with people from around IRan spread there then also from there spread to were Kurds live today. The gedorsian in Kurds and Iranians is from the pre Indo Iranian speakers. R1b shows a connection with Gedorsian but that does not mean it is unque to R1b just R1b began in that area.

    Maciamo i think thee is deifntley good evidence alot of Y DNA J is Neolithic but i defintley think some is Greco Roman. Why from 31 Y DNa samples from west European farmers dating any where from 7,000 to 4,725 years old not one had hg J it deifntley does not connect with how popular J is today u would except at least one. I am wondering what J1 and J2 subclades in Europe have old enough ages to be Neolithic and pretty much only found in Europe or very rare in areas of the mid east Greek and Italian civilizations had contact with.

    Do u think that Cardium culture and LBK came from the same source. I think that all or almost all farming in Europe was spread by the same family of farmers who orignalley came from a culture around Greece and Anatolia 9,000ybp. I think G2a3 L30 was their main G2a subclade and G2a was their main haplogroup period.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered
    Fire Haired's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-06-13
    Posts
    689
    Points
    4,121
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,121, Level: 18
    Level completed: 68%, Points required for next Level: 129
    Overall activity: 42.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Df27(Spain)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2(Prussia)

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic, Latino(~6%)
    Country: USA - California



    I really doubt the Caucus admixture in Italy and Greece is Neolithic. i made a map of west asian from the globe13 test it is distrubted around Italy Greece and southeast europe almost exactley the same way same with southwest asian. The fact is that Italians, Greeks, and southeast Europeans have more mid eastern than the rest of Europe The farmers that came to Italy came from central Europe why doesnt central Europe have as much and why does southern Italy have more. That makes me think it came through the Mediterranean sea in the Greco Roman age not everything mid eastern in europe is neloithic i get sick of that assumtion.

  10. #10
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    16,236
    Points
    335,712
    Level
    100
    Points: 335,712, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    I really doubt the Caucus admixture in Italy and Greece is Neolithic. i made a map of west asian from the globe13 test it is distrubted around Italy Greece and southeast europe almost exactley the same way same with southwest asian. The fact is that Italians, Greeks, and southeast Europeans have more mid eastern than the rest of Europe The farmers that came to Italy came from central Europe why doesnt central Europe have as much and why does southern Italy have more. That makes me think it came through the Mediterranean sea in the Greco Roman age not everything mid eastern in europe is neloithic i get sick of that assumtion.
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/04...neolithic.html

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/04...neolithic.html

    West Asian and Caucasus are also two different components

  11. #11
    Banned Achievements:
    OverdriveThree FriendsVeteran10000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651
    Points
    15,622
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,622, Level: 37
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    Goga proto Indo Iranian speakers came from Russia. They came out of Yamna culture and migrated acroos central asia eventulley had alot of contact with people from around IRan spread there then also from there spread to were Kurds live today. The gedorsian in Kurds and Iranians is from the pre Indo Iranian speakers. R1b shows a connection with Gedorsian but that does not mean it is unque to R1b just R1b began in that area.
    I don't like to talk about this with you. I'm tired of ignorance among some denials here! You can still believe in stupid fairytales. Lets just agree to disagree, dude! There're no 'European' N1c1, I2a and R1a-Z283 Y-DNA haplogroups in Central Asia! Gedrosian component = R1* + J2a & G2a. This is the same formula of modern-day and ancient Iranic peoples that still speak and spoke Iranic languages. Russians (N1c1, R1a-Z283 & I2a folks) speak a Slavonic language. Slavic nations have nothing to do with Iranic and proto-Iranic nations, since they never spoke Iranic. Iranic R1a is NOT the same as Slavic R1a! The only true Iranians and descendants of the ancient Iranians are moder-day Persians and Kurds (/Medes). Even today among ALL WestAsian peoples, Kurds have the highest amount of Caucasian-Gedrosian component! Together with Caucasian, Gedrosian is the most imporant auDNA component among ALL Iranians, from West (Asia) to East (Cetral Asia)! Ancient Sogdians, Parthians, Bactrians, Persians and Medes were all Caucasian-Gedrosian! We can attest that by looking at the auDNA of modern-day Iranic nations from Kurdistan to Afghanistan!

  12. #12
    Tabaccus Maximus Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Tabaccus Maximus's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-12
    Posts
    169
    Points
    10,333
    Level
    30
    Points: 10,333, Level: 30
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 217
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - SRY 2627
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1a

    Ethnic group
    Galo-Germanic Atlantic Fringe
    Country: USA - Texas



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    After the map of Gedrosian admixture I found it would be interesting to compare the distribution of the 'Caucasus' admixture in the same K12b. Although both peak around West Asia and South Asia, the frequency inside Europe is completely different. The Caucasian admixture looks more Neolithic (matching particularly well G2a + J1xP58 + J2) and is high among Slavs, but nearly absent in Northwest Europe as well as among the Basques. In contrast, the Gedrosian is virtually absent in Slavs but is the highest in Northwest Europe among Europeans and appears linked to the diffusion of R1b lineages.

    It's also interesting how the Caucasian admixture is so unevenly spread within Spain (unlike any other country).
    Great Maps, Maciamo!
    Do you think possibly these maps could be intrepreted the other way around?

    The Gerdosian map, I think, is quite clear as you've said. It corresponds with R1b's movement.
    The Caucasian map could be much, much later though. Could the Ottomans and the Goths could have spread K12b?
    Excluding some of the other wandering peoples, the Gothic and Vandalic influence is much stronger in Spain and Italy than some think. Perhaps the Eastern Germanics had a more eastern and Crimean maternal mix, which tends to disguise their total presence in Spain and Italy. It probably also better explains the uneven distribution in Gothic Spain.

    Edit* Afterthought. I'm ignorant on how these genes are selected in children, but I would imagine a single ancestor in the genealogy of a cross-section of modern people could have spread K12b to many descendants. For example, a single Ottoman soldier who married a local Middle Eastern 400 years ago may now have several million offspring many of which may or may not have K12b. If a bunch of Ottoman soldiers married Middle Eastern women 400 years ago, the gene might be almost universal...?

  13. #13
    Tabaccus Maximus Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Tabaccus Maximus's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-12
    Posts
    169
    Points
    10,333
    Level
    30
    Points: 10,333, Level: 30
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 217
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - SRY 2627
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1a

    Ethnic group
    Galo-Germanic Atlantic Fringe
    Country: USA - Texas



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post

    Interesting, the hotspot over R1b Bashkirostan.
    Also, interesting; the relative softness over Yamanaya.
    Maikop, Kura-Araxes and Northern Mespotamia look fairly hot.
    I would be interested to know its distribution in Asian and Africa.

  14. #14
    Noman
    Guest


    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    Goga proto Indo Iranian speakers came from Russia. They came out of Yamna culture and migrated acroos central asia eventulley had alot of contact with people from around IRan spread there then also from there spread to were Kurds live today. The gedorsian in Kurds and Iranians is from the pre Indo Iranian speakers. R1b shows a connection with Gedorsian but that does not mean it is unque to R1b just R1b began in that area.

    Maciamo i think thee is deifntley good evidence alot of Y DNA J is Neolithic but i defintley think some is Greco Roman. Why from 31 Y DNa samples from west European farmers dating any where from 7,000 to 4,725 years old not one had hg J it deifntley does not connect with how popular J is today u would except at least one. I am wondering what J1 and J2 subclades in Europe have old enough ages to be Neolithic and pretty much only found in Europe or very rare in areas of the mid east Greek and Italian civilizations had contact with.

    Do u think that Cardium culture and LBK came from the same source. I think that all or almost all farming in Europe was spread by the same family of farmers who orignalley came from a culture around Greece and Anatolia 9,000ybp. I think G2a3 L30 was their main G2a subclade and G2a was their main haplogroup period.
    And here we go. The discrepancy here is that the proto indo europeans and the indo european speakers are not the same people as I've been trying to say. Nobody packed up from iran to make a big migration to europe, it just never happened. All the people in that whole area have always been related for all time practically. Also this map shows yamanaya is nothing to do with anything which no one should have thought anyway. Maykop on the other hand obviously took on a lot of that culture.

    It's not that the iranians moved west and became european looking. They always looked european and lately they get more and more influence from mongols and arabs, and by way of them influence to east asia and north africa so they look different now. Nobody looked like khomeni in iran even a couple hundred years ago!

  15. #15
    Banned Achievements:
    OverdriveThree FriendsVeteran10000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651
    Points
    15,622
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,622, Level: 37
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by Noman View Post
    It's not that the iranians moved west and became european looking. They always looked european and lately they get more and more influence from mongols and arabs, and by way of them influence to east asia and north africa so they look different now. Nobody looked like khomeni in iran even a couple hundred years ago!
    Uh, not really. Ancient Greeks described Persians & Medes darker than themselves. The Sumerians described themselves 'black headed'/dark haired. According to me the Sumerians were ancestors of proto-Iranic tribes.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,119
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    After the map of Gedrosian admixture I found it would be interesting to compare the distribution of the 'Caucasus' admixture in the same K12b. Although both peak around West Asia and South Asia, the frequency inside Europe is completely different. The Caucasian admixture looks more Neolithic (matching particularly well G2a + J1xP58 + J2) and is high among Slavs, but nearly absent in Northwest Europe as well as among the Basques. In contrast, the Gedrosian is virtually absent in Slavs but is the highest in Northwest Europe among Europeans and appears linked to the diffusion of R1b lineages.

    It's also interesting how the Caucasian admixture is so unevenly spread within Spain (unlike any other country).



    I would like to know about the oval area in both maps in the caucasus area. Are they the Kabardin people?

    Kabarda or Kabard (Adyghe: Къэбэртайхэр-адыгэ or Qăbărtajxăr-adǝgă; Arabic: القبرطاي أو القبردي‎); are terms referring to a people of the northern Caucasus more commonly known by the plural term Kabardin (or Kebertei as they term themselves). Originally they (with the Besleney (Arabic: البسلني‎) tribe comprised the semi-nomadic eastern branch of what was once the Adyghe tribal fellowship. The Kabardin still consider themselves as a tribe of Adyghe. They speak Kabardian, a North West Caucasian language that represents the easternmost extension of the Circassian language group.

    There is an approach among the Adyghe in Circassia from different tribes to use only the Name Circassians (Adyghe) in Census 2010 in Russia; to reflect and revive the unity of the Adyghe Nation (Adyghes in Republic of Adyghea, Kabardians in Kabardino-Balkaria, Cherkess (Adyghe: Шэрджэс or Šărdžăs) in Karachay–Cherkessia, and the Shapsugs in the southern part of Krasnodar Krai, plus small Adyghe groups in Stavropol Krai and North Ossetia. This approach is widely supported in the Caucasus and among the Circassians in Diaspora.[citation needed]

    if they are adyghe , then maykop culture
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adyghe_people


    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  17. #17
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,732
    Points
    718,984
    Level
    100
    Points: 718,984, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 38.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I agree that at least some of the Caucasus is Neolithic, although I think that the Mediterranean component is also very significant, unless it should be found, for example, that Mesolithic samples from the Balkans already contained it. Also, the southwest Asian was present in the earliest Neolithic farmers.
    The Caucasus admixture is from the K12b admixture, while the Mediterranean is from the K12. They are therefore not mutually exclusive. I don't really like the K12's Mediterranean admixture because it encompass too many different ethnic elements and consequently is not a very coherent marker.

  18. #18
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,732
    Points
    718,984
    Level
    100
    Points: 718,984, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 38.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Tabaccus Maximus View Post
    Great Maps, Maciamo!
    Do you think possibly these maps could be intrepreted the other way around?

    The Gerdosian map, I think, is quite clear as you've said. It corresponds with R1b's movement.
    The Caucasian map could be much, much later though. Could the Ottomans and the Goths could have spread K12b?
    Excluding some of the other wandering peoples, the Gothic and Vandalic influence is much stronger in Spain and Italy than some think. Perhaps the Eastern Germanics had a more eastern and Crimean maternal mix, which tends to disguise their total presence in Spain and Italy. It probably also better explains the uneven distribution in Gothic Spain.

    Edit* Afterthought. I'm ignorant on how these genes are selected in children, but I would imagine a single ancestor in the genealogy of a cross-section of modern people could have spread K12b to many descendants. For example, a single Ottoman soldier who married a local Middle Eastern 400 years ago may now have several million offspring many of which may or may not have K12b. If a bunch of Ottoman soldiers married Middle Eastern women 400 years ago, the gene might be almost universal...?
    The Goths and Vandals had only a very minor impact (under 5%) on the population in the regions where they settled. The Ottomans spread East Asian genes, and their soldiers were from all the Middle East, but they all stayed in the Middle East and in the Balkans. That wouldn't explain how Caucasian DNA got in Europe in the first place. The Caucasian admixture is essentially Neolithic and was probably amplified in Italy and the Balkans through Greco-Anatolian Bronze Age people.

  19. #19
    Tabaccus Maximus Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Tabaccus Maximus's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-12
    Posts
    169
    Points
    10,333
    Level
    30
    Points: 10,333, Level: 30
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 217
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - SRY 2627
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1a

    Ethnic group
    Galo-Germanic Atlantic Fringe
    Country: USA - Texas



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The Goths and Vandals had only a very minor impact (under 5%) on the population in the regions where they settled. The Ottomans spread East Asian genes, and their soldiers were from all the Middle East, but they all stayed in the Middle East and in the Balkans. That wouldn't explain how Caucasian DNA got in Europe in the first place. The Caucasian admixture is essentially Neolithic and was probably amplified in Italy and the Balkans through Greco-Anatolian Bronze Age people.

    I suppose you are right. I read some of the archeogenetic results of European neolithic samples on Dienekes blog and it seems they had the Caucasian mixture.

    I have to admit though, the results of these maps are a bit puzzling. The Transcaucus is puzzling in that it seems to be divided in an East-West fashion genetically between Gedrosian and Caucasian. If you look at your previous map on East Asian admixture, again you see an impact exclusively in the Eastern side of the Caucus.

    That makes me question the ethnic mixture of the Maikop Culture in the Western Caucaus. Possibly it was one divided into several castes. The Kurgan builders may have represented a tiny minority of the population in an upper caste. Obviously those buried in the Kurgans were incredibily wealthy.

    Also, the lack of overlap in a meaningful way is significant. Given the time and generations to present, I would expect the two maps to be identical if they had their genesis in the same relative region.
    If Gedrosian had its genesis in the population of Balochistan, then possibly within a subset, R1b's entry into Europe was much later than previously supposed?

  20. #20
    Noman
    Guest


    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Uh, not really. Ancient Greeks described Persians & Medes darker than themselves. The Sumerians described themselves 'black headed'/dark haired. According to me the Sumerians were ancestors of proto-Iranic tribes.
    Yeah, I know all that but.... for the ancient greeks, I can't find any reason to think were the least bit dark. They used to call just about everyone darker than them. For that and a million other reasons I think it's the opposite. Black-headed is telling because it implies the people around them didn't have black hair.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveThree Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Knovas's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-05-11
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,444
    Points
    9,065
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,065, Level: 28
    Level completed: 53%, Points required for next Level: 285
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1b1a

    Ethnic group
    Catalan
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    This Caucasus component overlaps with Med. Sometimes what is shown as Caucasus here is most likely Med. It is really confusing since it is pretty much like a West Asian component when one checks the distribution, but definitely there's something strange:

    This was the only experiment I got high Caucasus/West Asian figures. Most times I came out very low or even 0%, so for me that's enough reason to take this run with more caution.

    Dienekes' argued this wasn't West Asian, but Caucasus, hence the results were different. However, the Euro7 test also included the Caucasus element with very similar distribution, and my result was 0% (overwhelmingly Southwestern, which is most similar to Med).

    So that's the story, hope it helps.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveThree Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Knovas's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-05-11
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,444
    Points
    9,065
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,065, Level: 28
    Level completed: 53%, Points required for next Level: 285
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1b1a

    Ethnic group
    Catalan
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The Caucasus admixture is from the K12b admixture, while the Mediterranean is from the K12. They are therefore not mutually exclusive. I don't really like the K12's Mediterranean admixture because it encompass too many different ethnic elements and consequently is not a very coherent marker.
    Rather the opposite: it is this Caucasus element what is not very coherent.

  23. #23
    Noman
    Guest


    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    This Caucasus component overlaps with Med. Sometimes what is shown as Caucasus here is most likely Med. It is really confusing since it is pretty much like a West Asian component when one checks the distribution, but definitely there's something strange:

    This was the only experiment I got high Caucasus/West Asian figures. Most times I came out very low or even 0%, so for me that's enough reason to take this run with more caution.

    Dienekes' argued this wasn't West Asian, but Caucasus, hence the results were different. However, the Euro7 test also included the Caucasus element with very similar distribution, and my result was 0% (overwhelmingly Southwestern, which is most similar to Med).

    So that's the story, hope it helps.
    The thing is, if you check every kind of marker you are probably going to get a similar spread but it doesn't mean that the people involved literally up and move to those locations, which will become clear when you realize some will be moving east and in general everything will simply spread out. Depending on what the "marker" is you might be spreading nothing at all but the marker, lots of genes are under selection pressure.

    So all it means is there's contact and some exchange between these peoples. If it were really a wholesale migration then the whole map would be black because unlike y-dna it won't wash out very easily. Which is a good quality about y-dna, you don't get massive false positives, whereas the autosomals are like painting with fire. You can't miss them but they don't necessarily mean anything.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveThree Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Knovas's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-05-11
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,444
    Points
    9,065
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,065, Level: 28
    Level completed: 53%, Points required for next Level: 285
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1b1a

    Ethnic group
    Catalan
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    I know what you mean Noman. And because of this, I give more credit to the regular results.

  25. #25
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,474
    Points
    43,458
    Level
    64
    Points: 43,458, Level: 64
    Level completed: 40%, Points required for next Level: 792
    Overall activity: 21.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    After the map of Gedrosian admixture I found it would be interesting to compare the distribution of the 'Caucasus' admixture in the same K12b. Although both peak around West Asia and South Asia, the frequency inside Europe is completely different. The Caucasian admixture looks more Neolithic (matching particularly well G2a + J1xP58 + J2) and is high among Slavs, but nearly absent in Northwest Europe as well as among the Basques. In contrast, the Gedrosian is virtually absent in Slavs but is the highest in Northwest Europe among Europeans and appears linked to the diffusion of R1b lineages.

    It's also interesting how the Caucasian admixture is so unevenly spread within Spain (unlike any other country).



    Maciamo, I'm a bit surprised by the 'spot' of 'caucasian' in Guipuzcoa (I believe), lost among a region where 'caucasian' is poor enough - in Iberia, 'caucasian' seems linked to 1) late neolithical movements - 2) to bronze ages colonizations from East - the less dense Portugal could be explained by a first wave of neolithical people, more on the side of Y-G2a and 'western mediterranean' ('basque' + 'sardinian'), and maybe by a light Lusitani impact (I-Eans) - in Spain, the central less dense 'caucasian can be due to Celtiberes' and others from central and western Europe? Germanics could have played too -
    for northern Italy, I'm surprised too by the very high level of 'caucasian': a more precise sampling could break down this unity?

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •