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Thread: Origin and ancient history of red hair

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    Origin and ancient history of red hair

    My account is screwed up so all the paragraphs might be combined
    Red hair is extremely rare it only goes above 1% west of Poland, north of central Spain, and south of northern Scandinavian and Finland and also over 5% in Volga Russia. Besides that it is almost non existent. Red hair is definitely the most unique hair color in the world. Originally all Humans had black hair so having red hair is just as crazy as having blue or green hair. I think most people would be suprised that red hair is mentioned in ancient writting and that there was a Roman emperor who was a redhead. That out of the very little over 3,000 year old human remains were we can tell hair color two were redheads and found in tarium basin China. There is actulley alot alot of info to help figure out the origin and history of red hair. There is no doubt red hair goes very far back in pre historic times. I know this is not ancient history but 3 of the first 7 USA presidenst had red hair(Thomas Jefferson 3, James Monroe 5, Andrew Jackson 7)
    Connection with Russia and spread of Germanic Italo Celtic and Indo Iranian languagesHere is a map of R1b in Europe and close areas in Africa and Asia compared to the map of red hair which only includes areas with 1% or more red hair. R1b orignalley probably came from around Iran 18,000ybp. And pounced around the middle east till R1b L23 or a older subclade migrated to southern Russia and Ukriane possibly with proto Indo European language 6,000-8,000ybp. So by around that time you would have had the first white people with mainly R1b. These people were the ones who then spread to western Europe starting 5,000ybp spreading Germanic and Italo Celtic languages and R1b L51-L11 click here it is a thread were i explain it. So if it is true that the Germanic Italo Celts spread red hair to western Europe or at least raised the percentages over 1% they would have gotten that red hair from a non R1b group of people around Russia or Ukraine 8,000ybp.That mean there was a very red hair 15-30% people lived around Russia and Ukraine at least over 8,000ybp. Then when they adopted Indo European languages spread it to western Europe starting 5,000ybp. The people who spread Indo Iranian langauges also had for sure over 1% red hair possibly over 10%. The way i know this is multiple writings form Ancient Greeks including historian herdotus described Indo Iranian speakers in central asia as red haired and blue eyed. Indo Iranian languages were spread from a people who's ancestry came from around northern and central Russia click here for more of a explanation. That they were European and remains had by far mainly blonde hair and light eyes so i am not taking about a east asian or middle eastern people group. The Y DNA, mtDNA, hair color, and eye color for their remains from 3,800ybp and 1,600ybp dont change showing many only breed with each other for over 2,000 years. There is DNA from Scythian they showed the same Y DNa, mtDNA, hair color, and eye color as Adronovo people in Siberia 3,800ybp and the same sythcians were described as red haired by Herdotus. Also even though there less than 20 remains of early Indo Iranians speakers were we can tell hair color two had red hair but were mummies in tarium basin china. The oldest is a woman from 3,400ybp but i cant find any images to show. 3,000 year old Charcehn man 6 feet 6 inches tall. I could only get some info from a real expert who studied him. He said he had red hair other stuff i read like Wikipedia said he had Brown hair and a red beard either way it shows the genes for red hair were in ancient Indo Iranians. The Yeuzhi of ancient western china known by Greeks as Tocherians. I read on Wikpedia and from a expert on a doc. who studied them that they were described by ancient Chinese writers as tall, having high noses, and blonde and red hair with big beards, and blue eyes. So obvisouly they were European and probably related to the tarium mummies of mixed European-east asian people from 4,000ybp and 3,8000 year old Adornovo people in Siberia and all the other Indo Iranains like Sycthians in bronze-iron age central asia. But it seems like they did not speak a Indo Iranian language beacsue we have some of their writting they spoke a Indo European language that is all we know. Painting of red haired Tocherian/Yuezhi and a Chinese i think they were Buddhist Monks. I could not get a date i remeber one said 6th century ad it is probably somewhere around that time. The Tocherians/Yuezhi were conquered in the 600-700;s by Turkic speaking tribe the Ughurs who i think came from around Mongolia. But since Indo Iranian speakers and east asians have been mixing there will sometimes be east asian looking people with red hair and total european east asian mixes in the Ughur's.Here is a example of Ughur with red hair.Red hair today still exists in Indo Iranian speaking ethnic groups. When proto Indo Irnain Abashevo and Sinshta cultures spread out of northern Yamna culture in Russia 5,000ybp. They stareted tos pread throughout asia including all the areas from Iraq-India. Even though they were absorbed into dark haired ethnic groups in that area red hair did not completely die out.Pashuten redhead and his dad in Afghanistan.Kalash redhead in PakistanKurdish redheads in SyriaIzzat Ibrahim al-Douri Iraqi military commander and was vice president of the Iraqi revloutionary Command Council. Until his leader Saddam hussien was defeated by America. I could not find info if he is from Indo Iranian speaking Kurds in Iraq but there is no doubt his red hair is from the same type of Indo Iranian people like Sycthians who migrated out of northern Russia 5,000ybp.So there are two or at least one Indo European speaking people(maybe not Germanic Italo Celts) who migrated out of Russia Ukraine area starting about 5,000ybp both had pretty high amounts of red hair over 1% at the very very least. Also the Udmurt people in central Russia are the only non Germanic Italo Celtic and non indo Iranian speakers to have over 1% they actulley have the highest in the world 15-20% which is more evidence for a connection with Russia and red hair.So with just that information i think that there were people who had over 1% red hair living around Russia and Ukraine over 10,000ybp maybe even 20,000-30,000ybp. But i dont like these red hair maps because most only count areas with 1% or more. red hair is extremely recessive if there is red hair in Ukraine it wont show if red hair does exist acroos Europe and can be proven that it does not come from inter marriage with western Europe that would give a much older age to red hair and give a better idea about it's origin. Mysterious Non European red hairWhen i am talking about non European redheads i don't mean albinos from India or those people in pupae new gunie who have red hair from totally different genes. I mean real redheads with super pale skin and alot of times freckles with the same genes for red hair as European redheads. The Kablye Berbers in the atlas mountains of Moorco are known for having red hair. I already made a thread about this i heard a missionary who went to moorco and because he had pale skin they though he was a kablye. He went to the atlas mountains and said they do look pretty European and there were some redheads. The Kablye are one of the bigger ethnic groups in all of Africa they are the second biggest Berber ethnic group and Berbers take up almost all of north Africa. Riffian man with blonde head hair and red facial hair in Mooroco. Riffian are another Berber ethnic group and i guess they also are known for European features like Kablye. There are some Kablye tribes with 18% blonde hair so obviously they do get their red hair and pale skin from Europeans orignalley but when and who. It makes sense that they live literally right at the border of Africa and Europe but were did they get the blonde hair i doubt from Spanish. It seems they inter married with a group of Europeans like the Indo Iranians mainly blonde haired and high amounts of red hair it is very rare to find a peope group with alot of blonde and alot of red hair together. I made a theory that it came there from Iberia after the last ice age 15,000ybp. Because 19,000-10,000ybp there were huge migrations out of Iberia with mtDNA H1, H3, V, and U5b1 they also went to North Africa and 12,000 year old mtDNA V samples in the atlas mountains prove it happened that long ago. Maybe the people in Iberia back then went extinct or migrated to other areas in Europe and are not the main ancestors of modern Iberians so it is possible they had some red hair i dont know. Besides that i cant think of any idea what group of Europeans inter married with them. The Samartien redhead mystery is my favorite. The Samartiens are mentioned in the New testment of the Bible they were orignalley Jews but worshipped other Gods then Persians got them to inter marry with Assyrians then later they formed their own form of Judism i dont know the full story. They only bred with each other which causes alot of sickness there are only about 700 left. I dont know for sure but i think ever since they started so over 2,000ybp they only bred with each other. There have been aust DNa tests on every single Samartien alove not one had a single drop of European blood. They were typical people from the Syria - Palestine area. Then i saw pictures of them during passover and many looked very European it seemd like more were pale skinned like Europeans than brown skinned. On the news they also showed a little Samartien boy with red hair and freckles and said that red hair is popular for them since they do not inter marry.Redhead Samrtien boy during passover.Other Smartiens. So u can get an idea of what i mean by how suprisngly pale they are.I cant believe that did not become famous how is there 100% mid eastern people with red hair. If this is completely true that shows red hair is from before the European family formed 30,000-60,000ybp. It at least originated in the mid east 50,000-70,000ybp.Red hair in my opinon may have orignated in Russia-Ukriane 12,000-30,000ybp or in another group of Europeans probably over 20,000ybp. Or it originated in the middle east with early Caucasians 50,000-70,000ybp. The first people to have over 1% red hair would deifntley have lived in Paleolithic Europe so over 11,000ybp there were at least some in Russia and Ukriane maybe also in other areas of Europe. Anyone who had red hair has at least great or great grandparents who also had red hair. So every red head is apart of a constant line of redheads going back at least over 15,000ybp to the first redhead. Also both parents need the gene for red hair for one of their children to have red hair. It is pretty common for someone to have either blonde or brown head hair but red facial hair since the genes for red hair work differently.Red hair in ancient historic timesThe reason i said ancient HISTORIC times. Is because most people dont understand that histroic times are extremity young it only means times in history were we have written records. So the vast majority of the world has been recorded very recentley. The first writting that we still have records of and can see what the people are saying is around 6,000 years old in the mid east. So of course there is a very very low chance red hair will be mentioned. The Greeks are the first people in Europe were we have their ancient writing and can understand it. They started to write around 3,500ybp. The oldest mention of red hair is from around 500bc so 2,500ybp by Greek poet Xenphanes here is a quote "
    Men make their Gods in their own image, those of the Ethiopians are black and snob nosed, those of the Thracian's have blue eyes and red hair
    ". In Greek art Thracens are ofentlley depicted as red heads. The Thracian's lived in modern day Bulgaria so just north of Greece. Fresco on Thracian grave in central Bulgaira. Many Thracian graves had the inscription Rufus meaning redhead. Red hair today in Bulgaria does not reach 1% and since they are extremely dark haired and it is hard to believe they were known for red hair in ancient times. The Greeks may have exaggerated the red hair. Just saying i have meet to Romanian redheads which is right next to Bulgaria so it deifntley exists in that area.The next oldest reference i could find for red hair also comes from Greeks. This one is from the mid 400'sBC by Greek Historian Herodotus. I dont know that much about him but it seems he really liked to tell the history of people from around the world about their culture and who they were. Here is a quote
    "The Budni are a large and powerful nation: they have all deep blue eyes, and bright red hair".
    The Budni were a Sythian tribe i already explained about the red hair in Indo Iranain speaking tribes of bronze-iron age central Asia. Right now i cant find any direct sources but i do remeber looking at ancient Roman writing mentiong red hair in the Gauls of central Europe and France. Also they said the Picts and other Insular Celts of Britain were very red haired.Tacitus around 100ad wrote a book about the Germanic tribes. He wrote everything he could about who the Germans were. He said that they all had the same basic phiscal appearance
    "All have fierce blue eyes, red hair, huge frames, fit only for a sudden exertion"
    . So there is another ancient mention of red hair. The oldest depictions of red hair i could find is at least 2,284 years old. It is from the Estrucans who were a powerful civilization in central Italy from 764bc-264bc. Based on the fact that almost all of their paintgs depict people as brown skinned and that ancient writers say they orignalley came from Anatolia not Italy. Means they were not white or at least orignalley and probably had 0% red hair. In Etruscan paintings there might be like two white people and 10 brown skinned people. The white people are probably from Italic or Celtic tribes in that area who are visiting Estrucans. The redhead was probably from a Italic or Celtic tribe. I already mentioned how red hair was probably spread to west Europe by Germanic Italo Celts and red hair is 1-3% in central Italy and a little south of were Estrucans lived. Cato the Elder born in 234bc died in 149bc. He was 100% from Latins who were Italic tribes from around Rome. According to ancient writing when they mention his phiscal appearance they say he had red hair and grey eyes. He came from the general population and his family were known for their service in the Roman military. He was a very traditional Latin and was known as a grumpy old man. He fought in the war against Hannibal when he was 17 and is a very important person in Roman history. He has the oldest written records that we know for sure were written by someone with red hair.Bust of Cato the elder.The Suetoniu book " Life of the twleve Ceasars". Says that Emperor Vitellius the 8th Emperor of Rome was a redhead. He was Emperor from April 17, 69ad - December 20 69ad.ancient Sculpture of Vitellius from what i know the only redhead Roman emperor. From looking at the mummy of Pharaoh Ramses 11. Ruler of Eygpt from 1303 BC – July or August 1213 BC. Accroding to this link they determined he was a redhead.
    Professor P. F. Ceccaldi, with a research team behind him, studied some hairs which were removed from the mummy's scalp. Ramesses II was 90 years-old when he died, and his hair had turned white. Ceccaldi determined that the reddish-yellow colour of the mummy's hair had been brought about by its being dyed with a dilute henna[COLOR=#67B045 !important]solution[/COLOR]; it proved to be an example of the cosmetic attentions of the embalmers. However, traces of the hair's original colour (in youth), remain in the roots, even into advanced old age. Microscopic examinations proved that the hair roots contained traces of natural red pigments, and that therefore, during his youth, Ramesses II had been red-haired. It was concluded that these red pigments did not result from the hair somehow fading, or otherwise altering post-mortem, but did indeed represent Ramesses' natural hair colour. Ceccaldi also studied a cross-section of the hairs, and he determined from their oval [COLOR=#67B045 !important]shape[/COLOR], that Ramesses had been "cymotrich" (wavy-haired). Finally, he stated that such a combination of features showed that Ramesses had been a "leucoderm" (white-skinned person). [Balout, et al. (1985) 254-257.]Balout and Roubet were under no illusions as to the significance of this discovery, and they concluded as follows:"After having achieved this immense work, an important scientific conclusion remains to be drawn: the anthropological [COLOR=#67B045 !important]study[/COLOR] and the microscopic analysis of hair, carried out by four laboratories: Judiciary Medecine (Professor Ceccaldi), Société L'Oréal, Atomic Energy Commission, and Institut Textile de France showed that Ramses II was a 'leucoderm', that is a fair-skinned man, near to the Prehistoric and Antiquity Mediterraneans, or briefly, of the Berber of Africa." [Balout, et al. (1985) 383.]

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    Not all the roman emperors have much description to them but most of the first 12 were either blonde or redhead. Including caesar who was redhead and augustus who was blonde, and from there the emperors become even less italic for the most part.

    Akhenaten and tuetenkhaman were r1b, and I would not be surprised to find they were redhead as well. It's been known a long time a lot of the pharaohs and egyptian nobility were not anything like the current inhabitants but the information is mostly suppressed. Some of them are black, too, which is also mostly swept under the rug for same reasons. Even the current test results weren't publicly released, they got leaked. They have done about 20 more tests and never released the results, obviously they don't like what they are finding.

    That red hair clusters very tightly in the british isles, so that origin doesn't make any sense. It's pretty obvious it was washed out by the r1b newcomers - not the source at all. I'm sure it's a lot more ancient than that, and since it's recessive it no doubt covers much less territiry than it used to.

    Also, mountains and other isolated spots are a refugium. The moroccans in the mountains have so much red hair because that's how everyone in the area used to look. They are not some rarity they are what the norm is, or anyway was. That's how many berbers looked before arabs came. It should have been a lot of redheads and european looking groups plus some outright black people mixed in, according to historic sources.

    Nobody but maciamo and a few people here really think r1b came from iran. If it has any main source outside europe it's obviously anatolia, but much of it seems to radiate out of iberia, not into iberia. And it's doubtful red hair developed surrounded by black hair all around any more than blonde hair would have. Blonde and red hair was probably the usual for all europe at some point in the distant past.

    I don't think that a migration that goes to a new place then looks exactly like it's spreading out from there is impossible but if we are to swallow all these theories it means this is the norm, not the exception.

    To me it's obvious one group radiates out of anatolia and another out of iberia and north africa. Iran was probably r1a in somewhat recent times, but got their language from the PIE that were a different genotype that came first. Possibly black elamites, maybe j2s, maybe something else entirely. And then r1b folk would have gotten that indirectly through contact to r1a, and spread it ever more westward with time.
    Last edited by Noman; 30-08-13 at 23:22.

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    I'm Bulgarian and with red hair where this is uncommon. However my mum is from Ukraine and blond and dad is with dark hair. I married English with dark hair and have two kids one with blond and one with red hair! Really can't understand how these genes works?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elanaar View Post
    I'm Bulgarian and with red hair where this is uncommon. However my mum is from Ukraine and blond and dad is with dark hair. I married English with dark hair and have two kids one with blond and one with red hair! Really can't understand how these genes works?
    That is kind of crazy. I have meet to Romanian redheads. The ancient Thracian's and Dacians who lived in Bulgaria were almost always described as red haired by Greeks. click here . So it is not a surprise to me red hair exists in Bulgaria today. The maps they show of red hair only include areas with 1% or more. I am sure red hair exists throughout Europe. I dont know if it is because of little inter marraige with western Europe or when Germanic Italo Celts were migrating to west Europe. red hair exists in Samaritans who in globe13 test show no traces at all of European blood. Both of ur parents had to of had the red hair gene which means it exists in Ukriane and if ur dad is from Bulgaria and in Bulgaira. And English have alot of red hair 5-10%. My grandparents both with dark hair but some red haired ancestors had two redhead kids. then one of their dark haired kids married someone with dark hair two out of three kids had red hair. Red hair is the most common hair color on my moms side including all the cousins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    That is kind of crazy. I have meet to Romanian redheads. The ancient Thracian's and Dacians who lived in Bulgaria were almost always described as red haired by Greeks. click here . So it is not a surprise to me red hair exists in Bulgaria today. The maps they show of red hair only include areas with 1% or more. I am sure red hair exists throughout Europe. I dont know if it is because of little inter marraige with western Europe or when Germanic Italo Celts were migrating to west Europe. red hair exists in Samaritans who in globe13 test show no traces at all of European blood. Both of ur parents had to of had the red hair gene which means it exists in Ukriane and if ur dad is from Bulgaria and in Bulgaira. And English have alot of red hair 5-10%. My grandparents both with dark hair but some red haired ancestors had two redhead kids. then one of their dark haired kids married someone with dark hair two out of three kids had red hair. Red hair is the most common hair color on my moms side including all the cousins.
    And Serbia (especially east Serbia):


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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    And Serbia (especially east Serbia):

    A family in my neighborhood is serbian and the dad has red hair. Obvisouly it does not just exist in R1b L11 areas just those are the only areas besides volga Russia and proto Indo Iranian speakers who have over 1%

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    Dude. You are ALL ABOUT the red hair, aren't you.

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    My father probably has this as he has red hair, is German/English with some Scottish, and I also have a little bit of red hair but only in my facial hair and it shows up in my scalp hair but it's dark red hair. But I have seen and met people from all over the world who have red hair including from the Middle East, Spain, Brasil, and Southern Italy.

    I asked my dad today if anyone on his mother's side or my grandmother's family had red hair and he said no that it came from his grandfather on his father's side.
    Last edited by redeyednewt; 14-02-16 at 07:27.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    My account is screwed up so all the paragraphs might be combined
    Red hair is extremely rare it only goes above 1% west of Poland, north of central Spain, and south of northern Scandinavian and Finland and also over 5% in Volga Russia. Besides that it is almost non existent. Red hair is definitely the most unique hair color in the world. Originally all Humans had black hair so having red hair is just as crazy as having blue or green hair. I think most people would be suprised that red hair is mentioned in ancient writting and that there was a Roman emperor who was a redhead. That out of the very little over 3,000 year old human remains were we can tell hair color two were redheads and found in tarium basin China. There is actulley alot alot of info to help figure out the origin and history of red hair. There is no doubt red hair goes very far back in pre historic times. I know this is not ancient history but 3 of the first 7 USA presidenst had red hair(Thomas Jefferson 3, James Monroe 5, Andrew Jackson 7)
    Connection with Russia and spread of Germanic Italo Celtic and Indo Iranian languagesHere is a map of R1b in Europe and close areas in Africa and Asia compared to the map of red hair which only includes areas with 1% or more red hair. R1b orignalley probably came from around Iran 18,000ybp. And pounced around the middle east till R1b L23 or a older subclade migrated to southern Russia and Ukriane possibly with proto Indo European language 6,000-8,000ybp. So by around that time you would have had the first white people with mainly R1b. These people were the ones who then spread to western Europe starting 5,000ybp spreading Germanic and Italo Celtic languages and R1b L51-L11 click here it is a thread were i explain it. So if it is true that the Germanic Italo Celts spread red hair to western Europe or at least raised the percentages over 1% they would have gotten that red hair from a non R1b group of people around Russia or Ukraine 8,000ybp.That mean there was a very red hair 15-30% people lived around Russia and Ukraine at least over 8,000ybp. Then when they adopted Indo European languages spread it to western Europe starting 5,000ybp. The people who spread Indo Iranian langauges also had for sure over 1% red hair possibly over 10%. The way i know this is multiple writings form Ancient Greeks including historian herdotus described Indo Iranian speakers in central asia as red haired and blue eyed. Indo Iranian languages were spread from a people who's ancestry came from around northern and central Russia click here for more of a explanation. That they were European and remains had by far mainly blonde hair and light eyes so i am not taking about a east asian or middle eastern people group. The Y DNA, mtDNA, hair color, and eye color for their remains from 3,800ybp and 1,600ybp dont change showing many only breed with each other for over 2,000 years. There is DNA from Scythian they showed the same Y DNa, mtDNA, hair color, and eye color as Adronovo people in Siberia 3,800ybp and the same sythcians were described as red haired by Herdotus. Also even though there less than 20 remains of early Indo Iranians speakers were we can tell hair color two had red hair but were mummies in tarium basin china. The oldest is a woman from 3,400ybp but i cant find any images to show. 3,000 year old Charcehn man 6 feet 6 inches tall. I could only get some info from a real expert who studied him. He said he had red hair other stuff i read like Wikipedia said he had Brown hair and a red beard either way it shows the genes for red hair were in ancient Indo Iranians. The Yeuzhi of ancient western china known by Greeks as Tocherians. I read on Wikpedia and from a expert on a doc. who studied them that they were described by ancient Chinese writers as tall, having high noses, and blonde and red hair with big beards, and blue eyes. So obvisouly they were European and probably related to the tarium mummies of mixed European-east asian people from 4,000ybp and 3,8000 year old Adornovo people in Siberia and all the other Indo Iranains like Sycthians in bronze-iron age central asia. But it seems like they did not speak a Indo Iranian language beacsue we have some of their writting they spoke a Indo European language that is all we know. Painting of red haired Tocherian/Yuezhi and a Chinese i think they were Buddhist Monks. I could not get a date i remeber one said 6th century ad it is probably somewhere around that time. The Tocherians/Yuezhi were conquered in the 600-700;s by Turkic speaking tribe the Ughurs who i think came from around Mongolia. But since Indo Iranian speakers and east asians have been mixing there will sometimes be east asian looking people with red hair and total european east asian mixes in the Ughur's.Here is a example of Ughur with red hair.Red hair today still exists in Indo Iranian speaking ethnic groups. When proto Indo Irnain Abashevo and Sinshta cultures spread out of northern Yamna culture in Russia 5,000ybp. They stareted tos pread throughout asia including all the areas from Iraq-India. Even though they were absorbed into dark haired ethnic groups in that area red hair did not completely die out.Pashuten redhead and his dad in Afghanistan.Kalash redhead in PakistanKurdish redheads in SyriaIzzat Ibrahim al-Douri Iraqi military commander and was vice president of the Iraqi revloutionary Command Council. Until his leader Saddam hussien was defeated by America. I could not find info if he is from Indo Iranian speaking Kurds in Iraq but there is no doubt his red hair is from the same type of Indo Iranian people like Sycthians who migrated out of northern Russia 5,000ybp.So there are two or at least one Indo European speaking people(maybe not Germanic Italo Celts) who migrated out of Russia Ukraine area starting about 5,000ybp both had pretty high amounts of red hair over 1% at the very very least. Also the Udmurt people in central Russia are the only non Germanic Italo Celtic and non indo Iranian speakers to have over 1% they actulley have the highest in the world 15-20% which is more evidence for a connection with Russia and red hair.So with just that information i think that there were people who had over 1% red hair living around Russia and Ukraine over 10,000ybp maybe even 20,000-30,000ybp. But i dont like these red hair maps because most only count areas with 1% or more. red hair is extremely recessive if there is red hair in Ukraine it wont show if red hair does exist acroos Europe and can be proven that it does not come from inter marriage with western Europe that would give a much older age to red hair and give a better idea about it's origin. Mysterious Non European red hairWhen i am talking about non European redheads i don't mean albinos from India or those people in pupae new gunie who have red hair from totally different genes. I mean real redheads with super pale skin and alot of times freckles with the same genes for red hair as European redheads. The Kablye Berbers in the atlas mountains of Moorco are known for having red hair. I already made a thread about this i heard a missionary who went to moorco and because he had pale skin they though he was a kablye. He went to the atlas mountains and said they do look pretty European and there were some redheads. The Kablye are one of the bigger ethnic groups in all of Africa they are the second biggest Berber ethnic group and Berbers take up almost all of north Africa. Riffian man with blonde head hair and red facial hair in Mooroco. Riffian are another Berber ethnic group and i guess they also are known for European features like Kablye. There are some Kablye tribes with 18% blonde hair so obviously they do get their red hair and pale skin from Europeans orignalley but when and who. It makes sense that they live literally right at the border of Africa and Europe but were did they get the blonde hair i doubt from Spanish. It seems they inter married with a group of Europeans like the Indo Iranians mainly blonde haired and high amounts of red hair it is very rare to find a peope group with alot of blonde and alot of red hair together. I made a theory that it came there from Iberia after the last ice age 15,000ybp. Because 19,000-10,000ybp there were huge migrations out of Iberia with mtDNA H1, H3, V, and U5b1 they also went to North Africa and 12,000 year old mtDNA V samples in the atlas mountains prove it happened that long ago. Maybe the people in Iberia back then went extinct or migrated to other areas in Europe and are not the main ancestors of modern Iberians so it is possible they had some red hair i dont know. Besides that i cant think of any idea what group of Europeans inter married with them. The Samartien redhead mystery is my favorite. The Samartiens are mentioned in the New testment of the Bible they were orignalley Jews but worshipped other Gods then Persians got them to inter marry with Assyrians then later they formed their own form of Judism i dont know the full story. They only bred with each other which causes alot of sickness there are only about 700 left. I dont know for sure but i think ever since they started so over 2,000ybp they only bred with each other. There have been aust DNa tests on every single Samartien alove not one had a single drop of European blood. They were typical people from the Syria - Palestine area. Then i saw pictures of them during passover and many looked very European it seemd like more were pale skinned like Europeans than brown skinned. On the news they also showed a little Samartien boy with red hair and freckles and said that red hair is popular for them since they do not inter marry.Redhead Samrtien boy during passover.Other Smartiens. So u can get an idea of what i mean by how suprisngly pale they are.I cant believe that did not become famous how is there 100% mid eastern people with red hair. If this is completely true that shows red hair is from before the European family formed 30,000-60,000ybp. It at least originated in the mid east 50,000-70,000ybp.Red hair in my opinon may have orignated in Russia-Ukriane 12,000-30,000ybp or in another group of Europeans probably over 20,000ybp. Or it originated in the middle east with early Caucasians 50,000-70,000ybp. The first people to have over 1% red hair would deifntley have lived in Paleolithic Europe so over 11,000ybp there were at least some in Russia and Ukriane maybe also in other areas of Europe. Anyone who had red hair has at least great or great grandparents who also had red hair. So every red head is apart of a constant line of redheads going back at least over 15,000ybp to the first redhead. Also both parents need the gene for red hair for one of their children to have red hair. It is pretty common for someone to have either blonde or brown head hair but red facial hair since the genes for red hair work differently.Red hair in ancient historic timesThe reason i said ancient HISTORIC times. Is because most people dont understand that histroic times are extremity young it only means times in history were we have written records. So the vast majority of the world has been recorded very recentley. The first writting that we still have records of and can see what the people are saying is around 6,000 years old in the mid east. So of course there is a very very low chance red hair will be mentioned. The Greeks are the first people in Europe were we have their ancient writing and can understand it. They started to write around 3,500ybp. The oldest mention of red hair is from around 500bc so 2,500ybp by Greek poet Xenphanes here is a quote " ". In Greek art Thracens are ofentlley depicted as red heads. The Thracian's lived in modern day Bulgaria so just north of Greece. Fresco on Thracian grave in central Bulgaira. Many Thracian graves had the inscription Rufus meaning redhead. Red hair today in Bulgaria does not reach 1% and since they are extremely dark haired and it is hard to believe they were known for red hair in ancient times. The Greeks may have exaggerated the red hair. Just saying i have meet to Romanian redheads which is right next to Bulgaria so it deifntley exists in that area.The next oldest reference i could find for red hair also comes from Greeks. This one is from the mid 400'sBC by Greek Historian Herodotus. I dont know that much about him but it seems he really liked to tell the history of people from around the world about their culture and who they were. Here is a quote The Budni were a Sythian tribe i already explained about the red hair in Indo Iranain speaking tribes of bronze-iron age central Asia. Right now i cant find any direct sources but i do remeber looking at ancient Roman writing mentiong red hair in the Gauls of central Europe and France. Also they said the Picts and other Insular Celts of Britain were very red haired.Tacitus around 100ad wrote a book about the Germanic tribes. He wrote everything he could about who the Germans were. He said that they all had the same basic phiscal appearance . So there is another ancient mention of red hair. The oldest depictions of red hair i could find is at least 2,284 years old. It is from the Estrucans who were a powerful civilization in central Italy from 764bc-264bc. Based on the fact that almost all of their paintgs depict people as brown skinned and that ancient writers say they orignalley came from Anatolia not Italy. Means they were not white or at least orignalley and probably had 0% red hair. In Etruscan paintings there might be like two white people and 10 brown skinned people. The white people are probably from Italic or Celtic tribes in that area who are visiting Estrucans. The redhead was probably from a Italic or Celtic tribe. I already mentioned how red hair was probably spread to west Europe by Germanic Italo Celts and red hair is 1-3% in central Italy and a little south of were Estrucans lived. Cato the Elder born in 234bc died in 149bc. He was 100% from Latins who were Italic tribes from around Rome. According to ancient writing when they mention his phiscal appearance they say he had red hair and grey eyes. He came from the general population and his family were known for their service in the Roman military. He was a very traditional Latin and was known as a grumpy old man. He fought in the war against Hannibal when he was 17 and is a very important person in Roman history. He has the oldest written records that we know for sure were written by someone with red hair.Bust of Cato the elder.The Suetoniu book " Life of the twleve Ceasars". Says that Emperor Vitellius the 8th Emperor of Rome was a redhead. He was Emperor from April 17, 69ad - December 20 69ad.ancient Sculpture of Vitellius from what i know the only redhead Roman emperor. From looking at the mummy of Pharaoh Ramses 11. Ruler of Eygpt from 1303 BC – July or August 1213 BC. Accroding to this link they determined he was a redhead.
    Hair and eye colours evovled as a mutation during a time where no ethnicitys existed (no scythians etc.). Why are you making science to myth? I dont get it.. associating celts with red hair is like associating asian looking eyes with han chinese although it is fully wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raspberry View Post
    Hair and eye colours evovled as a mutation during a time where no ethnicitys existed (no scythians etc.). Why are you making science to myth? I dont get it.. associating celts with red hair is like associating asian looking eyes with han chinese although it is fully wrong.
    You're right. The redhead in the Estruscan painting was definitely not Celtic like I thought, instead he was definitely Etruscan. Red hair is more popular in some people than others though. It's accurate to associate Red hair with an ethnicity or region if it is more popular in them. It isn't an exclusively Celtic British Isles(Irish, Scottish, Welsh) trait, but they have lots more of it than anybody else. Ashkenazi Jews(all Jews?) are an exception to the rule for Red hair. They're originally Semitic speakers and they're a SouthWest Asian+SouthEast European mix, but they have a fairly high frequency of red hair. They have so much red hair that in much of Europe if you have red hair people assume you're a Jew. Excuse the immature red hair superiority complex I had back then. I'm the same way with my baseball team and country or anything I'm apart of, it's an aspect of my personality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    You're right. The redhead in the Estruscan painting was definitely not Celtic like I thought, instead he was definitely Etruscan. Red hair is more popular in some people than others though. It's accurate to associate Red hair with an ethnicity or region if it is more popular in them. It isn't an exclusively Celtic British Isles(Irish, Scottish, Welsh) trait, but they have lots more of it than anybody else. Ashkenazi Jews(all Jews?) are an exception to the rule for Red hair. They're originally Semitic speakers and they're a SouthWest Asian+SouthEast European mix, but they have a fairly high frequency of red hair. They have so much red hair that in much of Europe if you have red hair people assume you're a Jew. Excuse the immature red hair superiority complex I had back then. I'm the same way with my baseball team and country or anything I'm apart of, it's an aspect of my personality.
    You're absolutely right. If we have red haired Syrians who's family has been native to the levant for thousands of years, its plain obvious that red hair isn't an "irish thing".

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Since Etruscans are the ancestors of the Sumerians *if I got this right* then this is the direction we should be looking at for red hair origin?

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