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Thread: New distribution map of haplogroup R1b in Eurasia and Africa

  1. #1
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    1 members found this post helpful.

    Arrow New distribution map of haplogroup R1b in Eurasia and Africa

    Eupedia is a website about Europe and so far I have limited the distribution maps of haplogroups to Europe and its periphery. But I thought it would be interesting to see the global distribution, especially in Asia since it is linked to the propagation of Indo-European people and languages. It is obvious from the distribution that R1b-M73 in Central Asia was spread through the Andronovo culture, alongside haplogroup R1a-Z93. The Bashkirs may be the descendants of the Sintashta culture.

    The Uyghur and Mongolian R1b-M73 is in my opinion the result of one of the earliest Indo-European migrations outside the Pontic-Caspian Steppe, the one which founded the Afanasevo culture (c. 3600-2400 BCE), before even the Yamna culture started (from 3300 BCE).


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    Last edited by Maciamo; 30-08-13 at 20:51.
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    Here is a comparative table of the Caucasian, Central Asian and Siberian populations with a high percentage of R1b and the Dodecad K12b's North European and Gedrosian admixtures. Note that the Sardinians have 0% for both admixtures. The R1b percentages were rounded up.

    Population R1b frequency R1a frequency North European admixture Gedrosian admixture
    Chuvashs 4% 32% 52.7% 4.5%
    Kumyks 20% 13% 18.8% 20%
    Lezgins 21.5% 2.5% 13.8% 27.8%
    Mongols 2% 14% 5.5% 5.9%
    Ossetians 10% 2% 19.2% 16.5%
    Tajiks 10% 40% 18.6% 33.9%
    Turkmens 37% 7% 10.3% 28%
    Uyghurs 15% 22% 13.7% 17.1%
    Uzbeks 10% 22% 16% 17.5%
    Last edited by Maciamo; 03-09-13 at 18:12.

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    Thank you. This is a very informative map! As you can see there is no R1b in 'Gedrosia' or to be more precisely in Baluchistan / Indus Valley. I'm very much surprised by R1b distribution and Gedrosia auDNA component in 'Turkmenistan'. People in Turkmenistan do speak Turkic but they are very close to Iranic peoples that live on the Iranian plateau. Also, very much surprised by R1b around The Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex (BMAC) (the Yaz & Oxus civilizations). To my understanding it's the Urheimat of East Iranian folks, like Parthians. According to some scientists it's even the homeland of proto-Iranian or even Indo-Iranian people. Although, I don't support this theory.

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    Hmmm, I still don't have any explanation what R1b is doing in BMAC and the possibility that we can link R1b to BMAC. But I'm sure that we can link Gedrosia component with Indo-Iranian (proto-Iranians) and modern Iranian people, because Gedrosia is very well represented among Iranian speakers. Also, as you can see, Ossestians (speakers of East Iranian language) that are originally East Iranian people from Central Asia are too much mixed with the ancient Eurasian Steppes people and the modern Russians, That's why they have higher North European and Mongoloid auDNA. But I'm certain that ancient East Iranic peoples from BMAC are linked to Gedrosia auDNA!

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    R1b sure spread around.

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    This map is freaking awesome exactly what i was waiting for not just European Y DNA maps. European Y DNa is connected with the rest of the world so to learn about Europe u need to learn about other parts of the world. Maybe u can do this for all Y DNA, U are the best map maker so it would be helpful if u did. Maybe this can lead up in the future to a total Indo European Paternal lineages map. All i can think of right now is R1a1a1 M417 and R1b L51 i doubt all R1b L23 and descendants is Indo European. Well I2a1b may have been spread to Kurds in the mid east with Indo Iranian languages i wonder if there is a trace if I2a1b with Indo Iranian languages. Maybe if u made a Eurasia and Africa map of I2a u could find it.

    I doubt R1b was major in spreading Indo Iranian languages. They may have been almost only R1a1a1b2 Z93 out of 17 ancient Indo Iranian Y DNa samples 16 had R1a1a one from Adoronovo culture in Siberia had Mongliod C. Is there any other Y DNA haplogroup in the indus valley besides R1a1a1b2 Z93 that deifntley came with Indo Iranian languages. If R1b M73 is distributed in a similar way to R1a1a1b2 Z93 then that is good evidence. About Bashkirs being descended from Sinishta culture. Which seems to be Indo Iranian and connected with Adoronovo. I doubt they are mainly descended because out of 4 3,600 year old Adornovo hair color sample two were blonde. And later DNA from INdo Iranians including Sycthans in tagar Russia should very similar mtDNa haplogroups, Y DNa R1a1a, and mainly blonde hair and light eyes. So proto Indo Iranian speakers were probably mainly blonde haired and light eyes and defintley high amounts of red hair (tarium mummies, Herodotus description of Scythians, and red hair in modern Indo Iranian speaking people).

    Did Indo Iranians really make the first Indo European migrations, Since Indo Iranian R1a1a1b2 Z93 is brother to Balto SLavic R1a1a1b1 Z282. and that Balto Slavic Languages and R1a defintley come from Corded ware culture which descends from Yamna culture. It would make sense Indo Iranian languages also descend from Yamna culture and Afanasevo is probably very early Indo Iranian so they probably descended from Yamna.

    What do u mean by Asia is linked to the propagation of Indo-European people and languages. Asia is huge what part of asia are u talking about. Because it seems R1a1a1 M417 spread with Indo European langauages and would have begun with Dneiper Donets culture in Ukraine and R1b L23 seems to have spread with some INdo European laguages and i would guess began around east north Anatolia, north Iraq, and Caucus i guess that is technically asia. In my opinion Indo European languages either began around southern Russia and Ukraine or northern middle east. It seems they spread mainly out of Russia and Ukraine Defintley Balto Slavic and Indo Iranian with Yamna culture.

    I dont think there is a such thing as Indo European people's. because 5,000-6,000 year old DNA samples from Yamna people in south Russia and Ukraine all the Germans said was pale skinned and dark eyed. Indo Iranians 3,800-3,400ybp in Siberia pale skinned light haired and eyed. Those Indo Iranians came straight from the steppes out of Yamna culture. But seem to be unrelated to Southern Yamna people showing even back then there were different types of people speaking Indo European languages. The blood of the first Indo European speakers probably barely exists in modern ones.

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    i really doubt there is a connection with R1a and North Euro. North Euro is almost deifntley Paleolithic European and the only one to originate in Europe it defines being European.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    i really doubt there is a connection with R1a and North Euro. North Euro is almost deifntley Paleolithic European and the only one to originate in Europe it defines being European.
    That's where you are wrong. Dienekes only named the admixtures based on the modern frequencies, not based on the place of origin. This "North European" surely includes various elements originating in people of both haplogroup I and R. It would be nice to differentiate them into separate admixtures, but it hasn't been done yet. Ideally we'd need an ancient DNA sample from a Late Neolithic R1b tribe and see how much is shared with modern populations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    R1b-L51+ is not found on the Steppe only R1b-Z2103+ and R1b-M73+ as well as R1a 93+ are found on the Steppe among the Baskirs and also Komi; it is also found in Iranian speaking areas of Northwestern Iran and Anatolia/Armenian.

    Medes-
    he Medes /midz/[N 1] (from Old Persian Māda-) were an ancient Iranian people[N 2] who lived in an area known as Media and who spoke a northwestern Iranian language referred to as the Median language
    Armenian-
    Armenian is a sub-branch of the Indo-European family, and with some 8 million speakers one of the smallest surviving branches, comparable to Albanian or the somewhat more widely spoken Greek, with which it may be connected (see Graeco-Armenian)
    Proto-Greek-
    The close relatedness of Armenian and Greek sheds light on the paraphyletic nature of the Centum-Satem isogloss.......Close similarities between Ancient Greek and Vedic Sanskrit suggest that both Proto-Greek and Proto-Indo-Iranian were still quite similar to either late Proto-Indo-European, which would place the latter somewhere in the late 4th millennium BC,.
    Bashkir R1b-Z2103 L51-, M73+
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

    011. R1b+L150

    R1b Z2103 Is also found among Digor Ossetians, Jászság Hungarians, and probably Balkarians ,among the older areas of Greece,[Arcadia, Sparta]
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Ossetian/
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

    Ossetians-
    The Ossetians (Ossetian: ирæттæ, irættæ) are an Iranian ethnic group of the Caucasus Mountains, indigenous to the region known as Ossetia.[9][10][11]
    Jászság Hungarians-
    The connection between the modern Jassic people and the Iazyges is disputed. Most Hungarian scholars claim that they were two different Sarmatian groups, and that the Jassic people are relatives of the Alans and the Ossetians.
    Balkarians-
    Balkars were part of Alania and one of the Vainakh tribes who were influenced by Turkic culture after the Mongol invasion's split of the lowlands of Nakh tribes and adopted the language; genetically they are closely related to Chechens and Ingush[4].

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    That's where you are wrong. Dienekes only named the admixtures based on the modern frequencies, not based on the place of origin. This "North European" surely includes various elements originating in people of both haplogroup I and R. It would be nice to differentiate them into separate admixtures, but it hasn't been done yet. Ideally we'd need an ancient DNA sample from a Late Neolithic R1b tribe and see how much is shared with modern populations.
    Mac i never said northeuro orignated in north euro. I do think what all these tests including geno 2.0 keep calling north euro is from paleoithic europe, defines being European, and is most popular in northern euro because it is farther away from non euro inter marriage.

    So many tests have this group they call either norther euro, north east euro, or atlantic baltic. In every test it is distributed the same way dominate east of germany and north of romania most popular in finnish and sami. the fact that la brana had so much north euro and he is a 7,000year old Mesolithic hunter gather from north spain shows it is old. he probably no r1b or r1a in his people his male lineges was probably i2a1a m26. i dont really understand aust dna that well but u cant ignore that north euro seems to have been 100% in Paleolithic(at least mesloithic) Europeans and is what defines being european.

    sure there might be sub groups of north euro from mainly R people. It seems u are going away from its connection with Paleolithic europe and that it is unique to europe. what ever north euro late neloithic r1b people had they got from a non r1b people most likely some type of hg I. Europeans probably used to be like native americans who are 100% from one aust dna group from what i have seen they are extremely extremely un diverse. So i think North euro should be renamed to paleothic european. Sine north euro is the brother to west asian in globe13 that probably means europeans ancestors orignated around Antolia, caucus, iraq-west iran.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Hmmm, I still don't have any explanation what R1b is doing in BMAC and the possibility that we can link R1b to BMAC. But I'm sure that we can link Gedrosia component with Indo-Iranian (proto-Iranians) and modern Iranian people, because Gedrosia is very well represented among Iranian speakers. Also, as you can see, Ossestians (speakers of East Iranian language) that are originally East Iranian people from Central Asia are too much mixed with the ancient Eurasian Steppes people and the modern Russians, That's why they have higher North European and Mongoloid auDNA. But I'm certain that ancient East Iranic peoples from BMAC are linked to Gedrosia auDNA!
    Goga, you might have to dial the timeline back further than the Bactria–Margiana Archaeological Complex (2300–1700 BC).

    Also, please take a look at the R1bx297 project administrator's map for his (Vince Vizachero's) proposed early R1 subclade branching.
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...k/default.aspx

    I'm not sure if his direction for M269 explains the complexity of M269's start. Another view on that is an arrow northwest from North Iran along the Caspian to the Northern Caucasus followed by a counter-clockwise movement around the Black Sea which might have been associated with IE languages.

    There is a connection of early metalworking with the Iranian Plateau and the Caucasus. This would also help explain out R1b somehow stayed out of the way of the large Neolithic advances out of the Near East. They were to the east in the Iranian Plateau and/or on their way to the north side of the Caucasus.

    That's all speculation, but I think that early metalworking may be a key factor.

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