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Thread: Haplogroup J2, Romans, Christianity and Viticulture, OFF TOPIC

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    Haplogroup J2, Romans, Christianity and Viticulture, OFF TOPIC

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I hope I'm not being too pedantic, but I think you can go further; that entire group of emperors until Commodus (192 A.D.), with the possible exception of Antoninus Pius, were of Italic origin, and most were connected with that same colony in Spain.
    Thats true;
    Although the proper line of Italic Emperors was ended with Vespasian [Flavian dynasty]
    Trajan and Hadrian essentially being Italics from the abroad Veteran colony ITALICA;

    Mark Aurel [-Commodus] origins was from Colonia Claritas Iulia Ucubi in Baetica
    - a colony founded by Caesar;

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It's only with the disastrous third century that you get the Balkans emperors. Although one wonders how different they would have been...perhaps in terms of y dna...not all that U-152, but in terms of autosomal, over all genetic similarity? That paper cited by Dienekes maintained that a dna analysis of a Balkan from the Iron Age was "Otzi like".
    I have seen some figures concerning Neolithic admixture in modern populations;
    but none from the Balkans - would be interesting;

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Well, one reason might be the subsequent Moorish invasion, which was followed by an 800 year occupation, following which we have the concerted effort by their most Catholic Majesties Ferdinand and Isabella to expel the Moors and the Jews, (an effort that I don't think was totally successful) which was followed by an also concerted effort to repopulate the southern areas with people from the north, which may indeed be why there isn't more substructure in Spain.

    The same thing may have happened in many places that experienced a lot of migration and mixing during the Germanic and Slavic migrations.
    The flaw in that little theory is that it is well known to both scholars of Islam as well as of Spanish history that those "Moors" 1- did not "occupy" anything in the Iberian Peninsula for "800 years" (not even Granada) & 2- were also nothing but a small elitist foreign minority, the key to the long survival of Islam in some parts of Iberia being obviously due to mass conversions of native peoples to the Islamic faith:


    "What deep roots Islam had struck in the hearts of the Spanish people may be judged from the fact that when the last remnant of the Moriscoes was expelled from Spain in 1610, these unfortunate people still clung to the faith of their fathers, although for more than a century they had been forced to outwardly conform to the Christian religion, and in spite of the emigrations that had taken place since the fall of Granada, nearly 500,000 are said to have been expelled at that time. Whole towns and villages were deserted and the houses fell into ruins, there being no one to rebuild them. These Moriscoes were probably all descendants of the original inhabitants of the country, with little or no admixture of Arab blood; the reasons that may be adduced in support of this statement are too lengthy to be given here; one point only in the evidence may be mentioned, derived from a letter written in 1311, in which it is stated that of the 200,000 Muhammadans then living in the city of Granada, not more than 500 were of Arab descent, all the rest being descendants of converted Spaniards."


    http://archive.org/stream/preachingofislam00arno#page/144/mode/2up


    So the Arabs/Moors of southern Spain would have had even less of an impact than any Roman or Vandal invaders from previous centuries. Like all military invasions, they simply weren't there in large numbers. In fact, it would be expected that Italy itself would have been more affected by the well-known large number of immigrants and slaves imported to the Italian peninsula from all over the empire, particularly from the Eastern Mediterranean regions, like Greece, southern Balkans, Anatolia/Turkey and the Levant.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Damn, what a quick response. Was someone trying to "brown" Spain again?
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drac II View Post
    The flaw in that little theory is that it is well known to both scholars of Islam as well as of Spanish history that those "Moors" 1- did not "occupy" anything in the Iberian Peninsula for "800 years" (not even Granada) & 2- were also nothing but a small elitist foreign minority, the key to the long survival of Islam in some parts of Iberia being obviously due to mass conversions of native peoples to the Islamic faith:


    "What deep roots Islam had struck in the hearts of the Spanish people may be judged from the fact that when the last remnant of the Moriscoes was expelled from Spain in 1610, these unfortunate people still clung to the faith of their fathers, although for more than a century they had been forced to outwardly conform to the Christian religion, and in spite of the emigrations that had taken place since the fall of Granada, nearly 500,000 are said to have been expelled at that time. Whole towns and villages were deserted and the houses fell into ruins, there being no one to rebuild them. These Moriscoes were probably all descendants of the original inhabitants of the country, with little or no admixture of Arab blood; the reasons that may be adduced in support of this statement are too lengthy to be given here; one point only in the evidence may be mentioned, derived from a letter written in 1311, in which it is stated that of the 200,000 Muhammadans then living in the city of Granada, not more than 500 were of Arab descent, all the rest being descendants of converted Spaniards."


    http://archive.org/stream/preachingofislam00arno#page/144/mode/2up


    So the Arabs/Moors of southern Spain would have had even less of an impact than any Roman or Vandal invaders from previous centuries. Like all military invasions, they simply weren't there in large numbers. In fact, it would be expected that Italy itself would have been more affected by the well-known large number of immigrants and slaves imported to the Italian peninsula from all over the empire, particularly from the Eastern Mediterranean regions, like Greece, southern Balkans, Anatolia/Turkey and the Levant.
    There was as far as I know only Berbers ( Moors) in Spain and not Arabs.

    The latest results I know are from 2009
    In January 2009, a study by Capelli et al. Spanish individuals found the total contribution of specific North African male haplotypes in Spain as 7.7%.[17]

    Under 10% is nothing, the real issue is the 22% of L for MtDna in Spain

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2947089/


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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    There was as far as I know only Berbers ( Moors) in Spain and not Arabs.

    The latest results I know are from 2009
    In January 2009, a study by Capelli et al. Spanish individuals found the total contribution of specific North African male haplotypes in Spain as 7.7%.[17]

    Under 10% is nothing, the real issue is the 22% of L for MtDna in Spain

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2947089/


    There were Arab aristocrats in Spain too but they were not numerous enough to make a significant contribution to the modern Spanish gene pool.

    Maybe some of the small amount of Y-DNA group Jin Spain owes something to them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    There was as far as I know only Berbers ( Moors) in Spain and not Arabs.

    The latest results I know are from 2009
    In January 2009, a study by Capelli et al. Spanish individuals found the total contribution of specific North African male haplotypes in Spain as 7.7%.[17]

    Under 10% is nothing, the real issue is the 22% of L for MtDna in Spain

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2947089/
    The Islamic conquest left its mark wherever it went;

    Gerard et al 2006 -
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17216803

    We have analyzed Y-chromosome diversity in the western Mediterranean area, examining p49a,f TaqI haplotype V and subhaplotypes Vb (Berber) and Va (Arab).....Subhaplotype Vb, predominant in a Berber population of Morocco (63.5%), was also found at high frequencies in southern Portugal (35.9%) and Andalusia (25.4%). The Arab subhaplotype Va, predominant in Algeria (53.9%) and Tunisia (50.6%), was also found at a relatively high frequency in Sicily (23.1%) and Naples (16.4%); its highest frequency in Iberia was in northern Portugal (22.8%) and Andalusia (15.5%). In Iberia there is a gradient of decreasing frequencies in latitude for both subhaplotypes Va and Vb, related to eight centuries of Muslim domination (8th to 15th centuries) in southern Iberia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    There was as far as I know only Berbers ( Moors) in Spain and not Arabs.

    The latest results I know are from 2009
    In January 2009, a study by Capelli et al. Spanish individuals found the total contribution of specific North African male haplotypes in Spain as 7.7%.[17]

    Under 10% is nothing, the real issue is the 22% of L for MtDna in Spain

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2947089/


    The problem here is a problem that comes into a lot of population studies, defining what is what.

    The berbers have 20% L mtdna as well. It's not a recent thing, either, but according to studies it's been there about 20k years. Implying that the berbers have always been just like they are now, or at least since last ice age.

    Also implying that the berbers and the spanish r1b has been the same all along, or at least came from the same original group. Either that or they simply killed virtually everyone in spain and repopulated everything south of basque country, but according to historical sources anyway it didn't happen like that. Not that we can always trust them.

    But one of few things I seem to agree with nobody on is, arab expansion left its mark. It's just silly to see people know that arab y-dna is all over italy, spain, north africa, iran and iraq and all kinds of places it never existed until recently then turn around and talk about the genetic continuity of all these places. Same goes for west africa and for mongolia. If anything should be taught by both history and dna results it's that stuff doesn't stay the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Damn, what a quick response. Was someone trying to "brown" Spain again?
    Yep, as usual with the typical ignorant "800 years of Moorish occupation" myth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    There was as far as I know only Berbers ( Moors) in Spain and not Arabs.

    The latest results I know are from 2009
    In January 2009, a study by Capelli et al. Spanish individuals found the total contribution of specific North African male haplotypes in Spain as 7.7%.[17]

    Under 10% is nothing, the real issue is the 22% of L for MtDna in Spain

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2947089/


    The elites were mostly Arab.

    That study made some absurd assumptions with haplogroups that predate even the existence of Islam itself by thousands of years, plus they apparently did not realize (or if they did they tried to ignore it or "explain it" away so they could continue with the agenda) the contradiction that their own data shows more of those haplogroups in NW Spain, where there hardly was much of any "Moorish occupation" to speak of, than in the south, where Islam lasted the longest.

    And there is no "22% of L mtDNA in Spain". You should start worrying about the 9.2% autosomal sub-Saharan African in Italy instead:


    http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...l.pone.0050794

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    The Islamic conquest left its mark wherever it went;

    Gerard et al 2006 -
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17216803

    We have analyzed Y-chromosome diversity in the western Mediterranean area, examining p49a,f TaqI haplotype V and subhaplotypes Vb (Berber) and Va (Arab).....Subhaplotype Vb, predominant in a Berber population of Morocco (63.5%), was also found at high frequencies in southern Portugal (35.9%) and Andalusia (25.4%). The Arab subhaplotype Va, predominant in Algeria (53.9%) and Tunisia (50.6%), was also found at a relatively high frequency in Sicily (23.1%) and Naples (16.4%); its highest frequency in Iberia was in northern Portugal (22.8%) and Andalusia (15.5%). In Iberia there is a gradient of decreasing frequencies in latitude for both subhaplotypes Va and Vb, related to eight centuries of Muslim domination (8th to 15th centuries) in southern Iberia.
    Why doesn't it surprise me that you are once again desperately trying to scrape the bottom of the barrel when it comes to this topic? This study is even worse than the ones trying to use proper haplogroups for similar agendas. No other geneticists except the authors of this junk paper talk about such "subhaplotypes Vb and Va". It's hopelessly flawed and obsolete crap that got superseded and contradicted even by proper haplogroup markers, so needless to say by autosomal studies. What will be next in your arsenal? HLA genes proving that Greeks are related to Ethiopians? Sickle cell anemia proving that Italians are really black Africans?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Wow another excuse for yet another study; And all is one big conspiracy agenda;
    Seems like all scientific studies are flawed and wrong and you are correct;
    But maybe its not them with an agenda; maybe its you;

    And Greeks are what?


    PS: Sickle Cell Animia is actually higher in Spain than in Sicily;

    Oxford University (2012)
    http://www.ox.ac.uk/media/news_relea...ts/121025.html


    Future studies will reveal even more;

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drac II View Post
    The elites were mostly Arab.

    That study made some absurd assumptions with haplogroups that predate even the existence of Islam itself by thousands of years, plus they apparently did not realize (or if they did they tried to ignore it so they could continue with the agenda) the contradiction that their own data shows more of those haplogroups in NW Spain, where there was no "Moorish occupation", than in the south, where Islam lasted the longest.

    And there is no "22% of L mtDNA in Spain". You should start worrying about the 9.2% autosomal sub-Saharan African in Italy instead:


    http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...l.pone.0050794
    Thats the same study that revealed 7.2% sub-saharan Africa autosomal DNA in North Spain and Portugal;
    Listed as 'other Mediterraneans'


    Sub-Saharan Africa autosomal figures from

    Moorjani et al 2011
    - Harvard Uni.
    http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/...l.pgen.1001373

    Spain = 2.4%
    S Italy = 2.7%
    Portugal = 3.2%
    N Italy = 1.1%
    Greece = 1.9%

    Application of f4 Ancestry Estimation suggests that the highest proportion of African ancestry in Europe is in Iberia (Portugal 3.2±0.3% and Spain 2.4±0.3%), consistent with inferences based on mitochondrial DNA and Y chromosomes and the observation by Auton et al. that within Europe, the Southwestern Europeans have the highest haplotype-sharing with Africans.

    But I bet thats also all flawed and wrong and bla bla bla;


    And Sub-Saharan Africa mtDNA in Spain is truly an eye-catcher;

    Cerezo et al 2012
    http://genome.cshlp.org/content/22/5/821.full

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Wow another excuse for yet another study;
    Seems like all of science is flawed and wrong and you are correct;
    You mean like how you try to do whenever you find a study that doesn't go along with your agendas, like you desperately tried to do with the autosomal results of that recent Italian study in another thread (you know where)?

    See, the difference is that I can easily point out that no other genetic studies support the claims of the crappy/obsolete papers you carefully choose whenever it suits you. Just because something manages to get published in some science journal, it doesn't mean it's 100% correct and supported by others.


    PS: Sickle Cell Animia is actually higher in Spain than in Sicily;

    Oxford University (2012)
    http://www.ox.ac.uk/media/news_relea...ts/121025.html


    Future studies will reveal even more;
    According to your silly map, which is of "predicted frequencies of sickle cell haemoglobin" not actual values, France and southern England by themselves have more sickle cell anemia than Spain and Italy put together . This map must be taking into account the population of these countries as a whole, not just the native inhabitants, so it's predicting more sickel cell anemia in countries like France, England and Spain, which have large foreign-derived populations. Other sickle cell maps, which you obviously don't like, showing actual frequencies of this disease among natives, show a pretty different picture:

    http://anthro.palomar.edu/synthetic/...requencies.gif

    http://www.understandingrace.org/ima...le_noflash.jpg

    http://itg.content-e.eu/Generated/pu..._1093_038c.jpg

    Sickle cell anemia was so fairly uncommon in Spain until about a couple of decades ago, that a Spanish doctor even published a paper 10 years ago warning other of his colleagues that they would have to become acquainted with the disease as more immigrants carrying this disease moved to Spain:

    http://zl.elsevier.es/es/revista/ana...editorial-2003


    In Italy, on the other hand, sickle cell anemia has been a well-known disease, quite independently from foreign immigration:

    http://www.haematologica.com/content/83/10/875.full.pdf

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    That silly map is from the Oxford University of 2012;
    Data from: The research by the Malaria Atlas Project, a multinational team of researchers funded mainly by the Wellcome Trust, maps the geographical contemporary distribution of sickle haemoglobin – a genetic disorder causing sickle cell anaemia. It also estimates the number of newborns affected by this condition.

    Where as your maps are not from any scientific source;
    And Sickle-Cell is not a recent phenomena in Spain;

    Miriam Bloom - 1995
    The Benin haplotype is the only one found among sickle cell patients in all but one (Portugal) of the Mediterranean countries of Europe, including Spain, Sicily, Albania, Greece, and Turkey......In Portugal, however, the sickle cell genes that have been analyzed are linked primarily to the Bantu and Senegal haplotypes.

    The most recent medical examinations [Oxford Uni. 2012] have revealed that Sickle Cell is actually low in Sicily 0-3% and higher in Spain;

    - Oxford Uni. 2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Thats the same study that revealed 7.2% sub-saharan Africa autosomal DNA in North Spain and Portugal;
    Listed as 'other Mediterraneans'
    NW Spain + Portugal (the country usually reputed to have the most sub-Saharan influence in Europe), yes, and Italy by itself beat both of them in autosomal results.


    Sub-Saharan Africa autosomal figures from

    Moorjani et al 2011
    - Harvard Uni.
    http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/...l.pgen.1001373

    Spain = 2.4%
    S Italy = 2.7%
    Portugal = 3.2%
    N Italy = 1.1%
    Greece = 1.9%

    Application of f4 Ancestry Estimation suggests that the highest proportion of African ancestry in Europe is in Iberia (Portugal 3.2±0.3% and Spain 2.4±0.3%), consistent with inferences based on mitochondrial DNA and Y chromosomes and the observation by Auton et al. that within Europe, the Southwestern Europeans have the highest haplotype-sharing with Africans.

    But I bet thats also all flawed and wrong and bla bla bla;
    Just in case you forgot, it was I who showed this study to your silly "friend" in that other thread. And apparently it still escapes you that the only way the authors of the study could keep up their agenda of trying to make their results "fit" with what they thought was the accepted results of haplogroup studies was by using the usual tactic of lumping Spain & Portugal together as if they were one entity under the umbrella term "Iberia", because otherwise their results also show that Italy has more of it.


    And Sub-Saharan Africa mtDNA in Spain is truly an eye-catcher;

    Cerezo et al 2012
    http://genome.cshlp.org/content/22/5/821.full
    That map might be showing the effect of the sampling size (larger for Spain), since it shows Portugal with seemingly less of it, when it is actually well known from a bunch of studies that it has higher frequencies of these mtDNA markers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    That silly map is from the Oxford University of 2012;
    Data from: The research by the Malaria Atlas Project, a multinational team of researchers funded mainly by the Wellcome Trust, maps the geographical contemporary distribution of sickle haemoglobin – a genetic disorder causing sickle cell anaemia. It also estimates the number of newborns affected by this condition.
    How mightily dishonest of you to try to pass the mission statement of the project as if it was what the map actually shows. I wouldn't expect any less from you. Read what the actual description of the map itself clearly says (and it plainly shows France and southern England with more of it, obviously showing that it is not reflecting the native population alone):

    An image showing areas with high predicted frequencies of sickle haemoglobin [credit: MAP] is available here:http://www.ox.ac.uk/images/hi_res/15...naemia_MAP.jpg



    Where as your maps are not from any scientific source;
    Says who?:

    http://itg.content-e.eu/Generated/pu...ll_anaemia.htm

    http://anthro.palomar.edu/synthetic/synth_4.htm

    http://www.understandingrace.org/humvar/sickle_01.html

    Unlike yours, they seem to be based on actual frequencies from diverse sources, not "predicted" values. You seem to have a knack for trying to use maps showing speculations and "predictions", not actual facts.

    And Sickle-Cell is not a recent phenomena in Spain;

    Miriam Bloom - 1995
    The Benin haplotype is the only one found among sickle cell patients in all but one (Portugal) of the Mediterranean countries of Europe, including Spain, Sicily, Albania, Greece, and Turkey......In Portugal, however, the sickle cell genes that have been analyzed are linked primarily to the Bantu and Senegal haplotypes.
    Once again, the fact that a concerned Spanish doctor had to warn his colleagues about the emerging issue of sickle cell anemia in Spain as recent as 10 years ago shows that it was not a very common disease, otherwise most of the medical practitioners in Spain would be well aware of what this thing is. In Italy (not just Sicily, as you desperately wish), however, it's been a well-known thing:


    Angela Dispenzieri, MD - Primary Hematology, 2000

    "The prevalence of the sickle cell gene is highest in equatorial Africa, Arabia, India, Israel, Turkey, Greece, and Italy."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drac II View Post
    Just in case you forgot, it was I who showed this study to your silly "friend" in that other thread. And apparently it still escapes you that the only way the authors of the study could keep up their agenda of trying to make their results "fit" with what they thought was the accepted results of haplogroup studies was by using the usual tactic of lumping Spain & Portugal together as if they were one entity under the umbrella term "Iberia", because otherwise their results also show that Italy has more of it.
    I must have forgotten it; because i have no clue what your talking about;

    So Moorjani et al 2011 (Harvard Uni.) is also agenda driven, wrong and flawed;
    Another one for the list;

    And where exactly is Spain and Portugal lumped together ?

    Sub-Saharan Africa admixture results;
    Spain = 2.4%
    S Italy = 2.7%
    Portugal = 3.2%
    N Italy = 1.1%
    Greece = 1.9%

    Im not sure what you are seeing;
    but im seeing the Portuguese with the highest level and N Italians with the lowest level;
    S Italy 2.7% and Spain (all of it) 2.4%;
    With Iberia (total) being the region of Europe with the highest overall;
    And thats a Harvard study from 2011;

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drac II View Post
    How mightily dishonest of you to try to pass the mission statement of the project as if it was what the map actually shows. I wouldn't expect any less from you. Read what the actual description of the map itself clearly says (and it plainly shows France and southern England with more of it, obviously showing that it is not reflecting the native population alone):

    An image showing areas with high predicted frequencies of sickle haemoglobin [credit: MAP] is available here:http://www.ox.ac.uk/images/hi_res/15...naemia_MAP.jpg
    You do know that MAP stands for Malaria Atlas Project and these predictions/estimates are based on their current data;

    the Malaria Atlas Project .... maps the geographical contemporary distribution of sickle haemoglobin .... Our aim was to use available evidence-based epidemiological data from the literature combined with modern mapping and modelling methods to come up with the best maps and estimates.

    I know it must be hard for you to actually read what you dont want to read and look at data maps you dont want to see;
    But its a safe thing to trust in the Studies and resulting data from renown institutions like the Oxford University;

    HemoglobinS (Sickle Cell) is nothing new to Spain;
    Might want to read all about it In Serjeant 1985 studies;

    Haemoglobinopathy Diagnosis - 2006
    The Benin type has also spread to Spain, Portugal, Sicily (perhaps from Greece, perhaps from Sudanese soldiers in Arab armies) and southern mainland Italy, Greece (particularly Macedonia), Albania, Turkey, north-western Saudi Arabia and Oman;
    Last edited by Nobody1; 30-08-13 at 21:29.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    I must have forgotten it; because i have no clue what your talking about;

    So Moorjani et al 2011 (Harvard Uni.) is also agenda driven, wrong and flawed;
    Another one for the list;
    I don't know if there's an agenda behind or not, but I am pretty sure it was largely debunked long ago:

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com.es/2011...-eurasian.html

    And by the way, both 7.7% and 9.2% Sub-Saharan estimations are a joke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drac II View Post
    The elites were mostly Arab.

    That study made some absurd assumptions with haplogroups that predate even the existence of Islam itself by thousands of years, plus they apparently did not realize (or if they did they tried to ignore it or "explain it" away so they could continue with the agenda) the contradiction that their own data shows more of those haplogroups in NW Spain, where there hardly was much of any "Moorish occupation" to speak of, than in the south, where Islam lasted the longest.

    And there is no "22% of L mtDNA in Spain". You should start worrying about the 9.2% autosomal sub-Saharan African in Italy instead:


    http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...l.pone.0050794
    I usually don't engage in discussions on internet sites with some Spanish posters for precisely this reason. What is there to be so concerned about? Is it such a terrible thing to have North African haplotypes or 4-5% of the North African component, or a percent or two of SSA, which is really what it boils down to? Yes, some of it could have come in the Mesolithic or the Neolithic, but to pretend that there was absolutely no admixture during the Moorish occupation, and that old Isabella kicked out every last Moor and Jew or part Moor and Jew is silly. After all, and thank goodness, she didn't have AC or Countries of Ancestry to sniff them out. That doesn't mean that this is in any way a majority component of the genomes either.

    And why always drag comparisons with Italy into the discussion? Who cares? I certainly don't.

    Genetics is genetics...it is what it is...and false or misleading information or just misinformation should be corrected.

    In that regard, if you're going to discuss genetics, please don't post an autosomal study that uses 52 Aims, as you did above. Is it the stone age on this site? That was an abominable embarrassment of a study. Both Italians and Spaniards should be ashamed that their compatriots could put out such garbage. Even the mt dna and y dna analysis didn't use subclades that are clearly available, and the charts were disastrously put together.

    And please don't quote Moorjani et al 2011, either. That's a Reich group paper...they realized their mistakes almost as soon as they wrote it, I think, and quickly corrected things in their following Patterson et al 2012 and Lipson et al 2013 papers.

    This is a fast moving field...you have to keep up with the latest research, and read things in sequence. You can't go hopping around trying to find things that support your point of view, when the data may have been disproved, or at least refined in subsequent studies.

    You also don't really want to get into the pigmentation area, not based on the most recent study. It might induce a coronary in the faint of heart

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    I don't know if there's an agenda behind or not, but I am pretty sure it was largely debunked long ago:

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com.es/2011...-eurasian.html

    And by the way, both 7.7% and 9.2% Sub-Saharan estimations are a joke.
    Sorry, Knovas, I didn't see that you had already posted on Moorjani et al.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drac II View Post
    The elites were mostly Arab.

    That study made some absurd assumptions with haplogroups that predate even the existence of Islam itself by thousands of years, plus they apparently did not realize (or if they did they tried to ignore it or "explain it" away so they could continue with the agenda) the contradiction that their own data shows more of those haplogroups in NW Spain, where there hardly was much of any "Moorish occupation" to speak of, than in the south, where Islam lasted the longest.

    And there is no "22% of L mtDNA in Spain". You should start worrying about the 9.2% autosomal sub-Saharan African in Italy instead:


    http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...l.pone.0050794
    which elites where Arab, have you a link?

    What does religion have to do with Genetics, ?...........i find this absurd. So a special alleles was formed when either jewish, christian, islam, hindu or other religions was created? Please do not bring this stupidity up again...........................who cares about islam for Spain?
    So the paper was correct, it stated that Sicily was very similar to Spain , but the peninsula of Italy was relative minor at 1%. The query is here is that the heel of Italy has the most % apart from Sicily. I can only see it from a later ottoman incursion in the 15th century.

    the 2010 paper , american journal stated.
    MtDNA Haplogroup L lineages are relatively infrequent (1% or less) throughout Europe with the exception of Iberia where frequencies as high as 22%[39] have been reported and some regions of Italy where frequencies between 2 and 3% have been found.

    In Iberia the mean frequency of Haplogroup L lineages reaches 3.83% and the frequency is higher in Portugal (5.83%) than in Spain (2.90%) and without parallel in the rest of Europe. Furthermore, in western Iberia, increasing frequencies are observed for Galicia (3.26%) and northern Portugal (3.21%), through the center (5.02%) and to the south of Portugal (11.38%).[40] Significant frequencies were also found in the Autonomous regions of Portugal, with L haplogroups constituting about 13% of the lineages in Madeira, significantly more than in the Azores.[41] In the Spanish archipelago of Canary Islands, frequencies have been reported at 6.6%.[41]




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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    PD: Nobody, your last post it is not true at all, or at least the conclusions stated in the paper. What North Africans share the most with Iberias is their Sardinian-like ancestry, labeled as Mediterranean in Dodecad experiments. So the gene flow occured mostly the other way around, I don't see the point in denying such thing when North Africans are, obviously, overwhelmingly West Eurasian regarding genetics. So that's the answer to the IBD sharing issue, I think there's no doubt about it.
    Whats not true?
    Its a direct quote from the study p.5/6

    Botigue 2013 - p.5/6
    http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/20...ental/sapp.pdf

    Thats obviously one of their results concerning admixture analysis and IBD sharing;
    Its from June 2013 - so obviously a very new insight;

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Whats not true?
    Its a direct quote from the study p.5/6

    Botigue 2013 - p.5/6
    http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/20...ental/sapp.pdf

    Thats obviously one of their results concerning admixture analysis and IBD sharing;
    Its from June 2013 - so obviously a very new insight;
    I told you what is not true: the significant gene flow did not come from Africa to Europe. Major components speak for itself in that regard, but if you don't want to understand and prefer to focus on absurd conclusions whatever the study is...it's up to you.

    I think there's nothing to add to my explanation. The IBD sharing issue was solved long ago, and I certainly did not expect still some people get involved in pitiful works like the one above. It's like going back 10 years ago, things like this don't cease to amaze me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Actually when dealing with components such as Northwest African or East African, which are not purely African at all, the results should be taken with a lot of caution. For instance, an individual showing less than 1% East African it is unlikely to have any Sub-Saharan ancestry, since the West Eurasian shift can easily produce the aforementioned result. Even 0.5% Sub-Saharan is ridiculously low to be taken seriously (as fact). I know to some extent all Europeans carry some sort of admixture, so keep in mind I refer to something significant, relevant and easy to quantify, which I don't see it is the case in both Italy and Spain (note the one who's posting does not consider himself Spanish).

    Checking idividual Globe13 results, all Europeans have 0.3%, 0.8% (and so on) of something. Time to wonder why.

    Being that said, it seems to me some individuals keep going on trying to give more relevance always to the same exact things. And that's not only biased, but also incredibly boring.

    PD: Nobody, your last post it is not true at all, or at least the conclusions stated in the paper. What North Africans share the most with Iberias is their Sardinian-like ancestry, labeled as Mediterranean in Dodecad experiments. So the gene flow occured mostly the other way around, I don't see the point in denying such thing when North Africans are, obviously, overwhelmingly West Eurasian regarding genetics. So that's the answer to the IBD sharing issue, I think there's no doubt about it.
    On Sub-saharan......this is correct. Even though the Portuguese "owned" the western and south-east African areas and bought many many slaves to Lisbon for selling purposes. The "berber" E1b1b1 marker must have been in iberia, southern france and Italy way before the iron-age as the many in swiss and tyrol areas are noted as very very old branches of it. IMO it was one of the original markers in Iberia from the bronze-age.

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