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Thread: Y-haplogroups of the Volga-Ural region + Saami + Gotland

  1. #26
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    Y-DNA haplogroup

    Country: Russian Federation

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    Quote Originally Posted by matbir View Post
    Vikings if they even been there ones, I thing they didn’t have any impact on Mordvins community. Better candidate for contribution of I1 in Mordvins are Bulgars. They moved from Black Sea to Volga-Kama area and probably took some Goths with them.
    It's hard to agree with you. If Gothic tribes had some clades of I1 then we would have a trail of these certain I1 clades on the route Ukraine->Romania->Pannonia->Italia->Spain. The problem is that we do not have any I1 clade with such distribution. Furthermore, we do not have Scandinavian clades of I1 in Ukraine, Balkans, Panonnia, Italy and Spain. I1 clades found among Tatars and Mordvins are closer to I1 guys from Germany and England but not to I1 guys from Ukraine, Italy and Spain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matbir View Post
    Vikings if they even been there ones, I thing they didn’t have any impact on Mordvins community. Better candidate for contribution of I1 in Mordvins are Bulgars. They moved from Black Sea to Volga-Kama area and probably took some Goths with them.
    How would the Bulgars have considerable levels of I1, I2b and north-west European admixture ?

    Where can I find data about R1b and I subclades for Mordvins? I cannot fully agree with you because Myres et al.2010 Found 2,5% of R1b U106 in Tatars.
    R1b-U106 only represents about 40% of R1b in Scandinavia. There are many other subclades.

    Interesting is how U152 reached southern Urals. I have no idea how it got there.[/QUOTE]

    There are three obvious possibilities:

    1) It is well documented that La Tène Celts who moved into the Pontic Steppe in the first or second century BCE. Some might have ended up in the Volga-Ural region over time. That's the most likely scenario for the high levels in Bashkortostan.

    2) Scandinavians do carry about 2.5% of R1b-U152. If the Vikings did settled in the region, then they might have brought a little bit of U152 with them. A founder effect could have increased the frequency compared to Scandinavia.

    3) Volga Germans in the 18th and 19th centuries.
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    Ones I have read discussion between Soltysiak and Morozova, about Morozowa's paper "Russian ethnic history inferred from mitochondrial DNA diversity"(here is paper, Soltysiak's mail, Morozova's respond). Interesting thing is that Mordvians are distant from Germanics and Volga Germans (which is shown in Morozova's respond) comparing to surrounding Slavic populations, that would lead me to conclusion, that there wasn't not population movement attributing Germanic people.
    In this case it looks like central-north European link to Mordvins is due to military band which conquered Mordva. I am not aware about traces of Goths under the case of I1 subclades, but in Erzya-Moksha DNA Project there are only four tested to further sublade. Case is even more complex, because area with two-three times higher than average I1 frequency is located in east and north-east of East European plane, as shown in “Two Sources of the Russian Patrilineal Heritage in Their Eurasian Context”.

    In matter of R1b-U106 I agree with you.


    In case of Bulgars I guess that they could take some Germanic warriors from around Black See, where even today I2a2 is relatively frequent. I thought that Bulgars are good candidate for arrival of I1 to Volga region, because Chuvashs who are believed to be descendants them have 7,5% of I1. Do you have any record of presence of Varangians in Mordva?

    It is common knowledge that Varangians were merchants in Eastern Europe, but it is not enough to make such a strong genetic impact on this area. Moreover Varengians established Rus in Novgorod and in later times they conquered all east Slavic tribes, and did not left genetic “foot print”. They even could be composed mostly of Finnic and Slavic people with only Rurik band been of Scandinavian ancestry.

    But as I mentioned above this topic not limited to Volga region in concerns also northeastern Russian populations.

    In matter of U152 all three are possibilities, but none of it obvious. The last two are giving more questions than answers. How it ended up that U152 is virtually absent from Bashkirs with one exception in northern subpopulation it peaks at 71% of all male lineages? It doesn’t make sense to be resent founder effect. And first possibility would be interesting if there is any archeological proof.

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