Y-haplogroups of the Volga-Ural region + Saami + Gotland

What I meant to say is that Europeans usually belong to R1b-M269, although it isn't only Europeans of course. In any case M269 probably spread from the North Caucasus and Pontic Steppe first to Europe (Balkans), then much later (about 2000 years later actually, since M269 reached Romania around 4000 BCE, but the Hittites didn't invade Anatolia until about 2000 BCE) to the Middle East. So you could say that M269 ultimately represents a European invasion of the Middle East. Autosomally the West European component of the Dodecad's K12 was surely spread to the Middle East by R1b M269+L23+Z2103.

Can u give a link to were u get these Dodecad K12 results. Because when looking at mid estern people in globe13 the for sure Mesolithic-Paleolithic European group and only one unique to Europe called north Euro. It is almost non existent in all mid easterns except Indo Iranian speakers were it is uselly over 5%. Which makes sense.

Ur theory does make sense. But I still dont get why R1b L23 is so popular in areas were Anatolian languages never dominated unless the Hittites made a huge effect in those areas. I guess it is really spread out in Anatolia which could be because of the Hittites.



Considering that R1b surely stayed between 2000 or 3000 years in the steppe before invading Southeast Europe that is hard to believe that all subclades under L23 evolved so slowly afterwards. The gap between L23 and L11 would be almost 5000 years !

In my view, it was P297 which crossed the Caucasus and divided into M269 and M73 in the Steppe (Pontic vs Caspian).



What I meant was that the R1b-M73 in the Bashkirs was there since the Bronze Age. On the other hand, the Y-haplogroup N lineages probably came later, either with Uralic or Turkic people. Since the modern Bashkirs have been hybridised with Siberian N lineages they do not look anything like their Bronze Age ancestors anymore.

Isn't it according to ur theory it was in the steppes for 2,000-3,000 years. I think it is possible that R1b L23 went up to the steppes just 7,000ybp then to southeast Europe 6,000ybp and developed into R1b L51. While the L23 that stayed in the mid east formed into Z2103. The only Indo European languages that obviously spread from the steppes and Yamna culture in Indo Iranian and Balto Slavic because of their R1a1a1b S224 and Y DNA from their supposedly ancestor culture's which descended from Yamna. I dont really know that much about the ancient cultures but maybe Indo Europeans began in the north mid east. Then one branch spread to the steppes 6,000-7,000ybp mixed culturally with the Bug Dniester people and started Yamna culture. And Germanic Italo Celtic, Greek, Thracen-Dacen, Illyrain, Anatolian, Armenian all migrated out of mid east to southeast Europe or stayed around the north mid east.
 
Mordvins, and udmurts ( same area) the location of Udmurtia correlates quite nicely with Greek accounts of the Budini people, who were essentially described as forest-dwelling light-pigmented hunter-gatherers.
Herodutus stated the budini had bright red hair

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budini

The Budni were Indo Iranian speaking Scythian's so they ad bronze, iron, farming, and alot of other advanced stuff. 3,000 and 3,400 year old redhead mummies in tarium basin China were also most likely indo Iranian speakers. Red hair still pops up in Indo Iranian speakers in the mid east even though they were almost completely melted into those people. Maybe Udmurts have alot of INdo Iranian sycthian blood but i would except their R1a to be Indo Iranian R1a1a1b1 Z93 then.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?91491-Origin-and-ancient-History-of-red-hair
 
Matrbir so the Volga people R1b is mainly R1b M269 . It looks like mainly r1b L23 with some Germanic Italo Celtic branches like Italo Gaulish R1b U152/S28, Germanic R1b s21/U106, and Italo Celtic R1b S116*. I guess that could be evidence for what Maciamo is saying that R1b M269 or maybe R1b L23 migrated out of the steppes to southeast Europe. Because how else do u explain R1b L23 in modern steppes. If u say from the central and north mid east were it is most popular. Then is the major Y DNa haplogroup in that area J match up with how popular it should be if it is from inter marriage. If not then maybe the R1b L23 there is original.
 
The particularity of the Mordvins is their high levels of haplogroups R1b (13.5%), I1 (12%) and I2-M223 (5%), which combined with 26.5% of R1a could mean that they are not just blended with European Russians, but with an even higher percentage of Swedish Vikings, accounting for perhaps 40 to 45% of male lineages. That would explain their high incidence of blue eyes and brown or red hair as opposed to the dominant black in the Volga-Ural region. Blond hair would have been lost with the high percentage of Siberian admixture.
Vikings if they even been there ones, I thing they didn’t have any impact on Mordvins community. Better candidate for contribution of I1 in Mordvins are Bulgars. They moved from Black Sea to Volga-Kama area and probably took some Goths with them.
Mordvins do not have European clades of R1b as well as Scandinavian clades of I1&I2 and R1a. They have typical Central and Eastern European set of I1&I2 and R1a clades that can be found in any Slavic population. Autosomally Mordvins (Erzya) pretty much overlap with Central Russians while Mordvins(Moksha) are closer to Tatars.
By the way Finnic and Turkic people of Volga region have a lot of Central European clades of I1 (5-15%) and no European clades of R1b (especially U106). This means that I1&I2 and R1b clades did not mix in Central Europe in prehistoric times coz R1b clades were virtually absent in Central Europe.
Where can I find data about R1b and I subclades for Mordvins? I cannot fully agree with you because Myres et al.2010 Found 2,5% of R1b U106 in Tatars.

Matrbir so the Volga people R1b is mainly R1b M269 . It looks like mainly r1b L23 with some Germanic Italo Celtic branches like Italo Gaulish R1b U152/S28, Germanic R1b s21/U106, and Italo Celtic R1b S116*. I guess that could be evidence for what Maciamo is saying that R1b M269 or maybe R1b L23 migrated out of the steppes to southeast Europe. Because how else do u explain R1b L23 in modern steppes. If u say from the central and north mid east were it is most popular. Then is the major Y DNa haplogroup in that area J match up with how popular it should be if it is from inter marriage. If not then maybe the R1b L23 there is original.
Bashkirs probably are composed from many populations of different origins. Some of them were carrying M73 but it is not the proving that expansion of this mutation started in this area. I would rather suggest that M73 come from Central Asia with Turkic invaders, whose descendants are Karachays (5,8%), Balkars (10,3%) and Turks (Anatolia 1,1%), while in neighboring non Turkic populations no one was found to be M73. Second thing is that if M73 originated in southern Urals it probably should be found in Balkans (end of steppe highway), but it is not. The case is probably more complex.
Interesting is how U152 reached southern Urals. I have no idea how it got there.
 
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Vikings if they even been there ones, I thing they didn’t have any impact on Mordvins community. Better candidate for contribution of I1 in Mordvins are Bulgars. They moved from Black Sea to Volga-Kama area and probably took some Goths with them.

It's hard to agree with you. If Gothic tribes had some clades of I1 then we would have a trail of these certain I1 clades on the route Ukraine->Romania->Pannonia->Italia->Spain. The problem is that we do not have any I1 clade with such distribution. Furthermore, we do not have Scandinavian clades of I1 in Ukraine, Balkans, Panonnia, Italy and Spain. I1 clades found among Tatars and Mordvins are closer to I1 guys from Germany and England but not to I1 guys from Ukraine, Italy and Spain.
 
Vikings if they even been there ones, I thing they didn’t have any impact on Mordvins community. Better candidate for contribution of I1 in Mordvins are Bulgars. They moved from Black Sea to Volga-Kama area and probably took some Goths with them.

How would the Bulgars have considerable levels of I1, I2b and north-west European admixture ?

Where can I find data about R1b and I subclades for Mordvins? I cannot fully agree with you because Myres et al.2010 Found 2,5% of R1b U106 in Tatars.

R1b-U106 only represents about 40% of R1b in Scandinavia. There are many other subclades.


Interesting is how U152 reached southern Urals. I have no idea how it got there.[/QUOTE]

There are three obvious possibilities:

1) It is well documented that La Tène Celts who moved into the Pontic Steppe in the first or second century BCE. Some might have ended up in the Volga-Ural region over time. That's the most likely scenario for the high levels in Bashkortostan.

2) Scandinavians do carry about 2.5% of R1b-U152. If the Vikings did settled in the region, then they might have brought a little bit of U152 with them. A founder effect could have increased the frequency compared to Scandinavia.

3) Volga Germans in the 18th and 19th centuries.
 
GloomyGonzales

Ones I have read discussion between Soltysiak and Morozova, about Morozowa's paper "Russian ethnic history inferred from mitochondrial DNA diversity"(here is paper, Soltysiak's mail, Morozova's respond). Interesting thing is that Mordvians are distant from Germanics and Volga Germans (which is shown in Morozova's respond) comparing to surrounding Slavic populations, that would lead me to conclusion, that there wasn't not population movement attributing Germanic people.
In this case it looks like central-north European link to Mordvins is due to military band which conquered Mordva. I am not aware about traces of Goths under the case of I1 subclades, but in Erzya-Moksha DNA Project there are only four tested to further sublade. Case is even more complex, because area with two-three times higher than average I1 frequency is located in east and north-east of East European plane, as shown in “Two Sources of the Russian Patrilineal Heritage in Their Eurasian Context”.

In matter of R1b-U106 I agree with you.

Maciamo

In case of Bulgars I guess that they could take some Germanic warriors from around Black See, where even today I2a2 is relatively frequent. I thought that Bulgars are good candidate for arrival of I1 to Volga region, because Chuvashs who are believed to be descendants them have 7,5% of I1. Do you have any record of presence of Varangians in Mordva?

It is common knowledge that Varangians were merchants in Eastern Europe, but it is not enough to make such a strong genetic impact on this area. Moreover Varengians established Rus in Novgorod and in later times they conquered all east Slavic tribes, and did not left genetic “foot print”. They even could be composed mostly of Finnic and Slavic people with only Rurik band been of Scandinavian ancestry.

But as I mentioned above this topic not limited to Volga region in concerns also northeastern Russian populations.

In matter of U152 all three are possibilities, but none of it obvious. The last two are giving more questions than answers. How it ended up that U152 is virtually absent from Bashkirs with one exception in northern subpopulation it peaks at 71% of all male lineages? It doesn’t make sense to be resent founder effect. And first possibility would be interesting if there is any archeological proof.
 
For Gotland I found this based on a sample size of 71 (31 + 40):

https://gotlandsprojektet.se/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Paper-Gotland-DNA-English-FINAL.pdf (page 10) - 31 samples*
https://www.nature.com/articles/5201651/tables/1 - 40 samples

^^^ Combined:

I1 = 35 (49.3%)
R1a = 11 (15.5%)
R1b = 11 (15.5%)
N = 5 (7.0%)
I2 = 3 (4.2%)
T = 2 (2.8%) --- assuming that K*(xN3,P) = T
Q = 2 (2.8%) --- assuming that P*(xR1a,R1b3) = Q
E = 1 (1.4%)
G = 1 (1.4%)

=====

Edit:

*However, some of them are immigrants:

DbbmrJn.png
 

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