Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 28

Thread: Y-haplogroups of the Volga-Ural region + Saami + Gotland

  1. #1
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,746
    Points
    721,092
    Level
    100
    Points: 721,092, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Arrow Y-haplogroups of the Volga-Ural region + Saami + Gotland

    I have added new populations in the Y-DNA tables: the island of Gotland in Sweden, the Saami (Finland+Sweden+Norway), and the six main ethnic groups of the Volga-Ural region in Russia: the Chuvashs, Komi, Mari, Mordvins, Tatars, and Udmurts.

    Gotland distinguishes itself by its extremely high level of haplogroup I1 (50%) - the highest recorded, although Värmland (central-western Sweden) come close with about 45%.

    The Saami (Lapps) are very close to the Finns, but with a bit less N1c1 and a bit more R1a and R1b. That is almost certainly due to intermarriages with Swedes and Norwegians. The highest frequency of R1a and R1b is found among the Saami of northern Sweden.

    The Volga-Ural ethnicities are surprisingly distinct from one another.

    The northern Komi, Mari and Udmurts are the closest with one another. They mostly Uralic/Siberian, with percentages of haplogroup N ranging between 50% and 67%, and seem to have a fairly recent European Russian admixture, which already incorporates relatively high levels of Scandinavian I1 (and even a bit of I2-M223 for the Udmurts). The admixture must therefore date from after the Viking era, in the last 1000 years.

    The Mordvins, Tatars and Chuvashes all have typical European Russian admixture (mostly R1a, with some I1, I2a and R1b). They also all carry between 20 and 30% of Middle Eastern or Balkanic Y-DNA (haplogroups E1b1b, G2a, J2 and T), considerably more than European Russians. Unfortunately the main study about these peoples (Tambets et al. 2004) does not include the detail about other haplogroups than I, R1a, R1b, N and Q.

    Tatarstan is said to have been settled by Islamised Bulgars. Considering their high percentages of haplogroups G (not necessarily G2a), J2 and T, these Bulgars from Central Asia might have carried a substantial number of Persian lineages.

    The particularity of the Mordvins is their high levels of haplogroups R1b (13.5%), I1 (12%) and I2-M223 (5%), which combined with 26.5% of R1a could mean that they are not just blended with European Russians, but with an even higher percentage of Swedish Vikings, accounting for perhaps 40 to 45% of male lineages. That would explain their high incidence of blue eyes and brown or red hair as opposed to the dominant black in the Volga-Ural region. Blond hair would have been lost with the high percentage of Siberian admixture.

    The Bashkirs, which were already listed in the Y-DNA tables, are the most interesting in my eyes because they are the only ones that appear to completely lack Russian or Scandinavian admixture, due to the complete absence of haplogroup I. Their extremely high frequency of R1b (up to 55% in south-east Bashkortostan) is not the typical European R1b-M269 either, but the Central Asian M73. They are therefore probably the direct descendants of the Chalcolithic or Early Bronze Age R1b that migrated from the Caucasus to the Volga-Ural region and who expanded over Siberia and Central Asia, notably through the Andronovo culture (see history of R1b-M73). Apart from R1b, the Bashkirs have very little Middle Eastern Y-DNA, just 0.5% of G (I would guess G2a3b1) and 2% of J2 (I'd say J2b2).
    My book selection---Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  2. #2
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,746
    Points
    721,092
    Level
    100
    Points: 721,092, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Here are the autosomal admixtures from the Dodecad Project's K12. As you can see the Mordvins do have a higher percentage of West European and Mediterranean than the Russians or the Chuvashes, which confirms their partial Swedish descent.

    Both the Chuvashes and the Mordvins have a higher West Asian admixture than either the Russians or Swedes, which also makes sense based on their higher percentage of E1b1b, G2a, J2 and T. What stands out is the very low Mediterranean component in the Chuvashes, while the Mordvins is alamost as high as the Swedes. Their Middle Eastern admixture must therefore have different origins.

    Population East European West European Mediterranean West Asian East Asian
    Chuvashs 43.5% 22% 1% 8% 23%
    Mordovians 32.5% 38% 13% 7.5% 7.5%
    Russians 48% 32% 8% 4% 6%
    Swedes 13.5% 65% 14% 4.5% 0.5%
    Finns 33% 53% 6% 0.5% 6%

    Let's have a closer look at the Middle Eastern admixtures using K12b.

    Population Gedrosia Caucasus Southwest Asia
    Chuvashs 4.5% 10% 4%
    Mordovians 4% 12.5% 0.5%
    Russians 1.5% 11.5% 1.5%
    Swedes 7.7% 1.2% 0.8%
    Finns 0.5% 1.5% 2.5%

    Here we can see clearly that the one admixture that Volga-Ural people have in greater amount than European Russians is the Gedrosia component. The Gedrosian admixture could either be a remnant from the Bronze Age R1b-M73 population living in the Volga-Ural region (surviving in the Bashkirs) and/or could have come through another migration, like the Bulgars of Tatarstan.

    The Caucasian component, found in ancient Neolithic samples, could date from an early Neolithic migration to the steppes, probably linked to E1b1b and T, which both appear to be quite well established around Russia.

    The Chuvashes also have a surprisingly high level of Southwest Asian admixture, which remains unexplained. The funny thing is that the Finns, who have close to no Middle Eastern Y-DNA except 1% of E1b1b, and some of the lowest West Asian, Gedrosian or Caucasian admixtures in Europe, have a record high Southwest Asian admixture (2.5% at the K12b, although under 1% at K12) for northern Europe - levels comparable to the Portuguese, North Italians and Romanians ! A lot of haplogroup T (3.5%) has also been found in Estonia, who are close relatives of the Finns. This reinforces my suspicion that a direct migration from Southwest Asian bringing haplogroups E1b1b and T brought the Neolithic to Northeast Europe, at least Finland, Estonia and Russia.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 03-09-13 at 20:40.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered
    Fire Haired's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-06-13
    Posts
    689
    Points
    4,121
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,121, Level: 18
    Level completed: 68%, Points required for next Level: 129
    Overall activity: 42.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Df27(Spain)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2(Prussia)

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic, Latino(~6%)
    Country: USA - California



    I think it is important to learn as much as possible about ethnic groups around that area. Because Indo European languages began around there or at least spread out of Yamna culture in that area. Do u have any info on what subclades of R1a they have because it is the most popular Y DNA haplogroup besides Uralic N. Do they have mainly Balto Slavic R1a1a1b1 Z283, Indo Iranian R1a1a1b2 Z93, or their ancestor R1a1a1b S224 and proto Indo European R1a1a1 M417.

    It seems pretty obvious that Balto Slavic R1a1a1b1 Z283 and Indo Iranian R1a1a1b2 Z93 came from the same Yamna culture source. Since these people live in areas that used to be apart of Yamna culture i am not surprised they have so much R1a i bet alot of R1a1a1b S224 and R1a1a1 M417. Why isn't Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1 L51 seem to have a origin in Russia and Ukraine but instead the north Mid east and southeast Europe. Do u think that maybe Indo European languages are older than Yamna culture. And that they originated in the north mid east then moved up to Russia and Ukraine 6,000-8,000ybp. And that only Balto Slavic and Indo Iranian languages come from Ukraine Russia area and Bug Dniester and Yamna cultures. MAybe other languges also formed up there but were only in the southern spot i dont know. Because only Indo Iranian and Balto Slavic languages obvisouly are full of R1a1a1 M417 and come from Yamna Bug Dniester world.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered
    Fire Haired's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-06-13
    Posts
    689
    Points
    4,121
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,121, Level: 18
    Level completed: 68%, Points required for next Level: 129
    Overall activity: 42.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Df27(Spain)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2(Prussia)

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic, Latino(~6%)
    Country: USA - California



    but with an even higher percentage of Swedish Vikings, accounting for perhaps 40 to 45% of male lineages. That would explain their high incidence of blue eyes and brown or red hair as opposed to the dominant black in the Volga-Ural region.
    I though the same at first about the red hair in volga Russia but how do u explain 10-15% in udmurts and 3-5% in most of Scandinavia and Denmark with some 5-10%. I really doubt their red hair is from Vikings plus it is only 45% of direct male lineages over 50% of Finnish have Y DNa N which is mongliod but do they have slanted eyes and black hair.

    Blond hair would have been lost with the high percentage of Siberian admixture.


    That is kind of assuming red hair is much more recessive than blonde hair why would Siberian admixture only take out the blonde hair. Since they don't have that much blonde hair is more evidence their red hair is not from Vikings.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered
    Fire Haired's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-06-13
    Posts
    689
    Points
    4,121
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,121, Level: 18
    Level completed: 68%, Points required for next Level: 129
    Overall activity: 42.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Df27(Spain)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2(Prussia)

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic, Latino(~6%)
    Country: USA - California



    is not the typical European R1b-M269 either, but the Central Asian M73.
    Dont u mean European and middle eastern. Since M269 son L23 and grandson Z2103 are over 20% in Antolia and most of Iraq. I dont get why u call M269 the European branch. In my opinion Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1 L51 which is the son of R1b1a2a L23 comes from a migration out of the north mid east just 6,000-8,000ybp. And that There is no way R1b1a2a L23 or R1b1a2a2 Z2103 originated in southeast Europe because of how popular they are in the mid east even in areas that were never Antolian Indo European. In my opinion M269 is probably from the mid east i would guess around Caucus, Anatolia, and Iraq R1b1a2a L23 brought it to Europe.

    They are therefore probably the direct descendants of the Chalcolithic or Early Bronze Age R1b that migrated from the Caucasus to the Volga-Ural region and who expanded over Siberia and Central Asia, notably through the Andronovo culture (seehistory of R1b-M73).
    I dont think u should say direct descendants because that can confuse people. That they are like 100% from those people. Albanians are direct descendants of orignally sub sharen African Y DNA E since they have over 20% E1b1b V13 but they defintley are not black and mainly descended of the first y DNa E people.

    What Andronovo culture i would guess since R1b1a1 M713 is kind of an old R1b branch. That it has a old age but maybe not wouldnt it be Andronovo cultures ancestors who first spread it. And just Indo Iranians period. I remember one time u said something like Bashikirs are the descendants of i think Abashevo culture or some other iNdo Iranian culture. I would not say that ithink u need to consider other factors. Bronze and Iron age Indo Iranian DNA samples show they were mainly blonde haired and light eyed unlike Bashikirs. Also when looking at their mtDNA i saw a huge constintcy with Indo Iranians from 1,600ybp and 3,800ybp so Bashkirs would have to show sometype of similarity in mtDNa too. Also the tarum mummies, ancient description of Indo Iranians, and red hair in modern Indo Iranian speakers is all proof they had over 3% red hair which i doubt Bashkirs do. The Indo Iranians in central asia like Scythian's seems to have stayed unmixed for over 3,000 years they were a distinct ethnic group which is now extinct their are no more full blooded people from proto Indo Iranian speakers.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered
    Fire Haired's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-06-13
    Posts
    689
    Points
    4,121
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,121, Level: 18
    Level completed: 68%, Points required for next Level: 129
    Overall activity: 42.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Df27(Spain)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2(Prussia)

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic, Latino(~6%)
    Country: USA - California



    I would assume there would be some native I2a1b in the eastern European ones. Do u think that the over 15% I2a1 in Kurds might because Indo Iranian languages or at least their ancestor language came from Russian Yamna culture so eastern Europe. I wonder if there are traces of I2a1b in other Indo Iranian speakers. his reminds me of I2a1b2.

    Here is a map of it from FTDNA


    Seems like it is not just British and since it is so high in Britanny i would think pre Germanic British so from at least Insular Celtic time. It is found i guess in most of western and central europe and north eastern Europe. I think it may have something to do with spead of farming. Since farming in Europe the two main cultures i can think of for western and central Europe are LBK and Cardiel both have the same mainly G2a and E V13 source in Greece so they had to migrate through eastern Europe maybe they picked up some native I2a1b and formed their own subclade.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered
    Fire Haired's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-06-13
    Posts
    689
    Points
    4,121
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,121, Level: 18
    Level completed: 68%, Points required for next Level: 129
    Overall activity: 42.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Df27(Spain)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2(Prussia)

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic, Latino(~6%)
    Country: USA - California



    The funny thing is that the Finns, who have close to no Middle Eastern Y-DNA except 1% of E1b1b, and some of the lowest West Asian, Gedrosian or Caucasian admixtures in Europe, have a record high Southwest Asian admixture (2.5% at the K12b, although under 1% at K12)
    I totally agree i noticed that in the globe13 test they have alot of their southwest asian too. It does not match the west Asian vs southwest Asian percentages found in the rest of Europe. There is a west and east european divide at Germany and Poland were southwest asian becomes more popular and west asian less popular but Finnish have surprisingly to much. If it pops up in other tests there is a for real Southwest asian admixture in Finland that might come from a diff source than the rest of Europe.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...tUE9kaUE#gid=2

  8. #8
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,746
    Points
    721,092
    Level
    100
    Points: 721,092, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    That is kind of assuming red hair is much more recessive than blonde hair why would Siberian admixture only take out the blonde hair. Since they don't have that much blonde hair is more evidence their red hair is not from Vikings.
    You mean that red hair is less recessive than blond hair. Actually it isn't a problem of being recessive or not. There is a gradient in hair pigmentation from white hair (albino, no melanin produced in hairs) to black hair, passing through light blond, dark blond, light brown and dark brown. However red hair is controlled by a different mutation (in the MC1R gene), so that it is combined with the actual hair colour, from very fair (which gives carrot red hair) to very dark (which gives auburn hair). I have not checked personally by I assume that the Mordvins have more auburn or reddish brown hair than bright red hair.

  9. #9
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,746
    Points
    721,092
    Level
    100
    Points: 721,092, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    Dont u mean European and middle eastern. Since M269 son L23 and grandson Z2103 are over 20% in Antolia and most of Iraq. I dont get why u call M269 the European branch. In my opinion Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1 L51 which is the son of R1b1a2a L23 comes from a migration out of the north mid east just 6,000-8,000ybp.
    What I meant to say is that Europeans usually belong to R1b-M269, although it isn't only Europeans of course. In any case M269 probably spread from the North Caucasus and Pontic Steppe first to Europe (Balkans), then much later (about 2000 years later actually, since M269 reached Romania around 4000 BCE, but the Hittites didn't invade Anatolia until about 2000 BCE) to the Middle East. So you could say that M269 ultimately represents a European invasion of the Middle East. Autosomally the West European component of the Dodecad's K12 was surely spread to the Middle East by R1b M269+L23+Z2103.

    There is no way R1b1a2a L23 or R1b1a2a2 Z2103 originated in southeast Europe because of how popular they are in the mid east even in areas that were never Antolian Indo European. In my opinion M269 is probably from the mid east i would guess around Caucus, Anatolia, and Iraq R1b1a2a L23 brought it to Europe.
    Don't trust modern frequencies. Archaeology tell us that steppe people migrated first to Southeast Europe, stayed there a long time, then moved to Central Europe and Anatolia. The 2000 years interval in Southeast Europe is consistent with the development of the L51, then of the L11 and Z2103 subclades before being spread in opposite directions.

    If L23 evolved in the Middle East before it spread to the Pontic Steppe, then a lot of M269 and L23 could be non-Indo-European. The Greek and Albanian R1b (L23+, and usually L51-) would be non-IE, although the Assyrian and Ossetian ones (both L23+, L51+, Z2103+) would be Indo-European. It doesn't make sense.

    Considering that R1b surely stayed between 2000 or 3000 years in the steppe before invading Southeast Europe that is hard to believe that all subclades under L23 evolved so slowly afterwards. The gap between L23 and L11 would be almost 5000 years !

    In my view, it was P297 which crossed the Caucasus and divided into M269 and M73 in the Steppe (Pontic vs Caspian).

    I dont think u should say direct descendants because that can confuse people. That they are like 100% from those people. Albanians are direct descendants of orignally sub sharen African Y DNA E since they have over 20% E1b1b V13 but they defintley are not black and mainly descended of the first y DNa E people.

    What Andronovo culture i would guess since R1b1a1 M713 is kind of an old R1b branch. That it has a old age but maybe not wouldnt it be Andronovo cultures ancestors who first spread it. And just Indo Iranians period. I remember one time u said something like Bashikirs are the descendants of i think Abashevo culture or some other iNdo Iranian culture. I would not say that ithink u need to consider other factors. Bronze and Iron age Indo Iranian DNA samples show they were mainly blonde haired and light eyed unlike Bashikirs. Also when looking at their mtDNA i saw a huge constintcy with Indo Iranians from 1,600ybp and 3,800ybp so Bashkirs would have to show sometype of similarity in mtDNa too. Also the tarum mummies, ancient description of Indo Iranians, and red hair in modern Indo Iranian speakers is all proof they had over 3% red hair which i doubt Bashkirs do. The Indo Iranians in central asia like Scythian's seems to have stayed unmixed for over 3,000 years they were a distinct ethnic group which is now extinct their are no more full blooded people from proto Indo Iranian speakers.
    What I meant was that the R1b-M73 in the Bashkirs was there since the Bronze Age. On the other hand, the Y-haplogroup N lineages probably came later, either with Uralic or Turkic people. Since the modern Bashkirs have been hybridised with Siberian N lineages they do not look anything like their Bronze Age ancestors anymore.

  10. #10
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,746
    Points
    721,092
    Level
    100
    Points: 721,092, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    I would assume there would be some native I2a1b in the eastern European ones. Do u think that the over 15% I2a1 in Kurds might because Indo Iranian languages or at least their ancestor language came from Russian Yamna culture so eastern Europe. I wonder if there are traces of I2a1b in other Indo Iranian speakers. his reminds me of I2a1b2.

    Here is a map of it from FTDNA


    Seems like it is not just British and since it is so high in Britanny i would think pre Germanic British so from at least Insular Celtic time. It is found i guess in most of western and central europe and north eastern Europe. I think it may have something to do with spead of farming. Since farming in Europe the two main cultures i can think of for western and central Europe are LBK and Cardiel both have the same mainly G2a and E V13 source in Greece so they had to migrate through eastern Europe maybe they picked up some native I2a1b and formed their own subclade.
    I hadn't seen this map yet, but it looks like some I2a-P37 lineages were picked up in Southeast Europe by R1b (between 4000 and 2500 BCE) and followed the migration of R1b-L11 to Bohemia and Germany, then mostly joined the R1b-L21 branch to the Atlantic coast of Europe.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,119
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have added new populations in the Y-DNA tables: the island of Gotland in Sweden, the Saami (Finland+Sweden+Norway), and the six main ethnic groups of the Volga-Ural region in Russia: the Chuvashs, Komi, Mari, Mordvins, Tatars, and Udmurts.

    Gotland distinguishes itself by its extremely high level of haplogroup I1 (50%) - the highest recorded, although Värmland (central-western Sweden) come close with about 45%.

    The Saami (Lapps) are very close to the Finns, but with a bit less N1c1 and a bit more R1a and R1b. That is almost certainly due to intermarriages with Swedes and Norwegians. The highest frequency of R1a and R1b is found among the Saami of northern Sweden.

    The Volga-Ural ethnicities are surprisingly distinct from one another.

    The northern Komi, Mari and Udmurts are the closest with one another. They mostly Uralic/Siberian, with percentages of haplogroup N ranging between 50% and 67%, and seem to have a fairly recent European Russian admixture, which already incorporates relatively high levels of Scandinavian I1 (and even a bit of I2-M223 for the Udmurts). The admixture must therefore date from after the Viking era, in the last 1000 years.

    The Mordvins, Tatars and Chuvashes all have typical European Russian admixture (mostly R1a, with some I1, I2a and R1b). They also all carry between 20 and 30% of Middle Eastern or Balkanic Y-DNA (haplogroups E1b1b, G2a, J2 and T), considerably more than European Russians. Unfortunately the main study about these peoples (Tambets et al. 2004) does not include the detail about other haplogroups than I, R1a, R1b, N and Q.

    Tatarstan is said to have been settled by Islamised Bulgars. Considering their high percentages of haplogroups G (not necessarily G2a), J2 and T, these Bulgars from Central Asia might have carried a substantial number of Persian lineages.

    The particularity of the Mordvins is their high levels of haplogroups R1b (13.5%), I1 (12%) and I2-M223 (5%), which combined with 26.5% of R1a could mean that they are not just blended with European Russians, but with an even higher percentage of Swedish Vikings, accounting for perhaps 40 to 45% of male lineages. That would explain their high incidence of blue eyes and brown or red hair as opposed to the dominant black in the Volga-Ural region. Blond hair would have been lost with the high percentage of Siberian admixture.

    The Bashkirs, which were already listed in the Y-DNA tables, are the most interesting in my eyes because they are the only ones that appear to completely lack Russian or Scandinavian admixture, due to the complete absence of haplogroup I. Their extremely high frequency of R1b (up to 55% in south-east Bashkortostan) is not the typical European R1b-M269 either, but the Central Asian M73. They are therefore probably the direct descendants of the Chalcolithic or Early Bronze Age R1b that migrated from the Caucasus to the Volga-Ural region and who expanded over Siberia and Central Asia, notably through the Andronovo culture (see history of R1b-M73). Apart from R1b, the Bashkirs have very little Middle Eastern Y-DNA, just 0.5% of G (I would guess G2a3b1) and 2% of J2 (I'd say J2b2).
    Does this old David Faux paper on vikings in central asia fit your ideas?

    http://www.davidkfaux.org/CentralAsi...NAEvidence.pdf
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,119
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    You mean that red hair is less recessive than blond hair. Actually it isn't a problem of being recessive or not. There is a gradient in hair pigmentation from white hair (albino, no melanin produced in hairs) to black hair, passing through light blond, dark blond, light brown and dark brown. However red hair is controlled by a different mutation (in the MC1R gene), so that it is combined with the actual hair colour, from very fair (which gives carrot red hair) to very dark (which gives auburn hair). I have not checked personally by I assume that the Mordvins have more auburn or reddish brown hair than bright red hair.
    Mordvins, and udmurts ( same area) the location of Udmurtia correlates quite nicely with Greek accounts of the Budini people, who were essentially described as forest-dwelling light-pigmented hunter-gatherers.
    Herodutus stated the budini had bright red hair

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budini

  13. #13
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    23-07-11
    Posts
    131
    Points
    6,293
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,293, Level: 23
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 257
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a

    Country: Russian Federation



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The particularity of the Mordvins is their high levels of haplogroups R1b (13.5%), I1 (12%) and I2-M223 (5%), which combined with 26.5% of R1a could mean that they are not just blended with European Russians, but with an even higher percentage of Swedish Vikings, accounting for perhaps 40 to 45% of male lineages. That would explain their high incidence of blue eyes and brown or red hair as opposed to the dominant black in the Volga-Ural region. Blond hair would have been lost with the high percentage of Siberian admixture.
    Mordvins do not have European clades of R1b as well as Scandinavian clades of I1&I2 and R1a. They have typical Central and Eastern European set of I1&I2 and R1a clades that can be found in any Slavic population. Autosomally Mordvins (Erzya) pretty much overlap with Central Russians while Mordvins(Moksha) are closer to Tatars.
    By the way Finnic and Turkic people of Volga region have a lot of Central European clades of I1 (5-15%) and no European clades of R1b (especially U106). This means that I1&I2 and R1b clades did not mix in Central Europe in prehistoric times coz R1b clades were virtually absent in Central Europe.

  14. #14
    Banned Achievements:
    OverdriveThree FriendsVeteran10000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651
    Points
    15,622
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,622, Level: 37
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Let's have a closer look at the Middle Eastern admixtures using K12b.

    Population Gedrosia Caucasus Southwest Asia
    Chuvashs 4.5% 10% 4%
    Mordovians 4% 12.5% 0.5%
    Russians 1.5% 11.5% 1.5%
    Swedes 7.7% 1.2% 0.8%
    Finns 0.5% 1.5% 2.5%

    Here we can see clearly that the one admixture that Volga-Ural people have in greater amount than European Russians is the Gedrosia component. The Gedrosian admixture could either be a remnant from the Bronze Age R1b-M73 population living in the Volga-Ural region (surviving in the Bashkirs) and/or could have come through another migration, like the Bulgars of Tatarstan.

    The Caucasian component, found in ancient Neolithic samples, could date from an early Neolithic migration to the steppes, probably linked to E1b1b and T, which both appear to be quite well established around Russia.
    You're making 1 fundamental mistake. IF you argue about aDNA components you also should take mtDNA into consideration.
    It's absolutely possible that Gedrosia component is also correlated with mtDNA haplogroups U7! And it seems that mtDNA haplogroup U7 is an 'Indo-Iranian' haplogroup.
    There's a lot of mtDNA hg. U7 in the Steppes. So it's possible that Gedrosia component in the Eurasian Steppes is a legacy from the Iranic speakers..

  15. #15
    Viscount Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    10-06-12
    Posts
    354
    Points
    8,431
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,431, Level: 27
    Level completed: 47%, Points required for next Level: 319
    Overall activity: 8.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-BY593
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2

    Country: Canada-Ontario




    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The Bashkirs, which were already listed in the Y-DNA tables, are the most interesting in my eyes because they are the only ones that appear to completely lack Russian or Scandinavian admixture, due to the complete absence of haplogroup I. Their extremely high frequency of R1b (up to 55% in south-east Bashkortostan) is not the typical European R1b-M269 either, but the Central Asian M73. They are therefore probably the direct descendants of the Chalcolithic or Early Bronze Age R1b that migrated from the Caucasus to the Volga-Ural region and who expanded over Siberia and Central Asia, notably through the Andronovo culture (see history of R1b-M73). Apart from R1b, the Bashkirs have very little Middle Eastern Y-DNA, just 0.5% of G (I would guess G2a3b1) and 2% of J2 (I'd say J2b2).
    The Tartars/ Bashkirs ,Khazakstan/Kirgiz/people also carry R1b Z-2103, found in Osset Digor and in Razgrad, ancient Greece.
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

    Since there is limited information about German R1b Kromsdorf sample [ie R-M269+] the oldest dated sample of R1b Z2103 [although not definitive] is probably the Pardubice sample in Czech which is 400+/-km from Kromsdorf dated to roughly 1180AD found in a Church and tested by dr Vanek. U98VT.
    The haplotype belongs to a male skeleton found at the 12th century cemetary of the church of St.Margaret, Podlazice, CZE
    http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.a...wuid=U98VT&p=1

  16. #16
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,746
    Points
    721,092
    Level
    100
    Points: 721,092, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post


    The Tartars/ Bashkirs ,Khazakstan/Kirgiz/people also carry R1b Z-2103, found in Osset Digor and in Razgrad, ancient Greece.
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults
    I hadn't checked the Bashqort Clans DNA Project, but I am glad to see that I was right about them carrying also G2a3b1 lineages. I am surprised though that R1b-M73 is only a minority of R1b lineages and that there are actually many R1b-M269 and R1b-L23 (L150). If M269 and L23 also went east to the Volga-Ural region, then how comes that Central Asian R1b has a higher proportion of M73 ? Perhaps we just don't have enough data from Central Asia at present.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 04-09-13 at 19:38.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    04-01-12
    Posts
    125
    Points
    10,961
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,961, Level: 31
    Level completed: 59%, Points required for next Level: 289
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Country: Poland



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The Bashkirs, which were already listed in the Y-DNA tables, are the most interesting in my eyes because they are the only ones that appear to completely lack Russian or Scandinavian admixture, due to the complete absence of haplogroup I.
    Haplogroup I is virtually absent in Bashkirs, because in Lobov Artem's study( Structure of the Gene Pool of Bashkir Subpopulations, 2009) 2 men out of 471 was found to be carrying I M170 and one of them was P37 positive, that makes 0,42% of simple size.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Their extremely high frequency of R1b (up to 55% in south-east Bashkortostan) is not the typical European R1b-M269 either, but the Central Asian M73.
    The results of Lobov’s and Natalie Myres' studies tells different story.
    First from Lobov's study:
    R1b M73 R1b M269 n
    Saratow and Samara Oblast 1 9 50
    Perm 1 36 43
    Sterlibashevsky District 0 0 52
    Western-Orenburg Oblast 0 10 43
    Eastern-Orenburg Oblast 0 3 34
    Abzielilowsky District 44 6 80
    Baymaksky 1 72 89
    Burzyansky District 15 26 80
    all 62 162 471
    13,2% 34,4%
    And From Myres' study:
    M343* S116*
    Circum-Uralic region N M479* (xM73xM269) M73 M269 all M269(xL23) L23(xM412) U106(xU198) (xM529xU152) U152
    Chuvashes (Russia) 117 0 0 0 0,026 0 0,017 0,009 0 0
    Komis (Perm Oblast, Russia) 61 0 0 0 0,131 0 0,115 0 0,016 0
    Udmurts (Russia) 54 0 0 0 0,037 0 0,037 0 0 0
    Tatars (Kazan, Russia) 80 0 0,013 0,013 0,063 0 0,025 0,025 0,013 0
    Tatars (Bashkortostan, Russia) 39 0,026 0 0,026 0,103 0 0,077 0,026 0 0
    Bashkirs South-east (Bashkortostan, Russia) 329 0 0 0,234 0,359 0,024 0,322 0,003 0,003 0,006
    Bashkirs Western (Bashkortostan, Russia) 54 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    Bashkirs South (Bashkortostan, Russia) 79 0 0 0 0,152 0,025 0,114 0 0 0,013
    Bashkirs North (Bashkortostan, Russia) 70 0 0 0,014 0,743 0 0,029 0 0 0,714
    Bashkirs South-west (Bashkortostan, Russia) 54 0 0 0,019 0,167 0 0,167 0 0 0
    Bashkirs all 586 0 0 0,135 0,326 0,017 0,215 0,002 0,002 0,090

    R1b M73 is 2.5 times less frequent then R1b M269.

    Maris in "The Genetic Legacy of Paleolithic Homo sapiens sapiens in Extant Europeans: A Y Chromosome Perspective", Ornella Semino 2000, were found to have 6,5%( 3 out of 46) F*( xM170,M172,M201,M69,M9) what probably is J1. Zoe Rosser in "Y-Chromosomal Diversity in Europe Is Clinal and Influenced Primarily by Geography, Rather than by Language" found 3 out of 48( 6,3%) Maris belonging to haplogroup J.
    Udmurts - 3 out of 43( 7%) were found to belong to I M170 in Semino et al.(2000) while 0 out of 89 in "Phylogeography of Y-Chromosome Haplogroup I Reveals Distinct Domains of Prehistoric Gene Flow in Europe", Siiri Rootsi 2004.
    Bashkirs are only one nation from this region which have considerable amount of central and eastern Asian haplogroups: 11/471( 2,34%) C, 4/471(0,85%) O, 3/471(0,64%) L, C+O+L = 3,83%.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Apart from R1b, the Bashkirs have very little Middle Eastern Y-DNA, just 0.5% of G (I would guess G2a3b1) and 2% of J2 (I'd say J2b2).
    Lobov found J2 in 13/471 (2,76%) what is rather 3 then 2. Or may by you have some different study?

    In my opinion Volga-Ural region is udersampled, from many different studies there are results, and it may be the case of high diversity in frequencies of haplogroups in each nation subpopulations.

    Edit: Semino found the same F* as in Maris in 2/43 Udmurts.
    Last edited by matbir; 04-09-13 at 20:11.

  18. #18
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,746
    Points
    721,092
    Level
    100
    Points: 721,092, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Thanks for your feedback, Matbir. That's just what I needed to know.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered
    Fire Haired's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-06-13
    Posts
    689
    Points
    4,121
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,121, Level: 18
    Level completed: 68%, Points required for next Level: 129
    Overall activity: 42.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Df27(Spain)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2(Prussia)

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic, Latino(~6%)
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    You mean that red hair is less recessive than blond hair. Actually it isn't a problem of being recessive or not. There is a gradient in hair pigmentation from white hair (albino, no melanin produced in hairs) to black hair, passing through light blond, dark blond, light brown and dark brown. However red hair is controlled by a different mutation (in the MC1R gene), so that it is combined with the actual hair colour, from very fair (which gives carrot red hair) to very dark (which gives auburn hair). I have not checked personally by I assume that the Mordvins have more auburn or reddish brown hair than bright red hair.
    Since how red hair is distributed shows absolutely no connection to blonde or just fair hair. I am not surprised that the genes work differently. It seems most blondes have a little brown and it would make sense blonde hair is just really light brown hair. But both redheads and blondes almost always have light eyes probably because both hair colors are just paler like light eyes are to brown eyes.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered
    Fire Haired's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-06-13
    Posts
    689
    Points
    4,121
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,121, Level: 18
    Level completed: 68%, Points required for next Level: 129
    Overall activity: 42.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Df27(Spain)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2(Prussia)

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic, Latino(~6%)
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I hadn't seen this map yet, but it looks like some I2a-P37 lineages were picked up in Southeast Europe by R1b (between 4000 and 2500 BCE) and followed the migration of R1b-L11 to Bohemia and Germany, then mostly joined the R1b-L21 branch to the Atlantic coast of Europe.
    'When u say I2a-P37 dont u mean I2a1b M423 since we are talking about I2a1b2 L161.1. I kind of dis agree i do trust age estimates a little and since FT DNA said 6,600 years old. That is to old for it to be connected with R1b L11 Germanic Italo Celtic migrations which probably did not arrive in Germany till 5,000ybp. Since it about as popular in Poland as GErmany and goes pretty far east that might be more of a sign that it is not from Germanic Italo Celts. I do think proto German speakers brought it to Southern Norway and Sweden starting 3,500-4,000ybp just like they brought I2a2a M223.

    I think it was probably spread at sometime during the Neolithic age. It kind of matches LBK culture. And since the family of farmers that spread acroos Europe first spread through Anatolia then Greece then eastern Europe they could have picked up I2a1b from the hunter gathers in east Europe then brought it as they went more west.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered
    Fire Haired's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-06-13
    Posts
    689
    Points
    4,121
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,121, Level: 18
    Level completed: 68%, Points required for next Level: 129
    Overall activity: 42.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Df27(Spain)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2(Prussia)

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic, Latino(~6%)
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    What I meant to say is that Europeans usually belong to R1b-M269, although it isn't only Europeans of course. In any case M269 probably spread from the North Caucasus and Pontic Steppe first to Europe (Balkans), then much later (about 2000 years later actually, since M269 reached Romania around 4000 BCE, but the Hittites didn't invade Anatolia until about 2000 BCE) to the Middle East. So you could say that M269 ultimately represents a European invasion of the Middle East. Autosomally the West European component of the Dodecad's K12 was surely spread to the Middle East by R1b M269+L23+Z2103.
    Can u give a link to were u get these Dodecad K12 results. Because when looking at mid estern people in globe13 the for sure Mesolithic-Paleolithic European group and only one unique to Europe called north Euro. It is almost non existent in all mid easterns except Indo Iranian speakers were it is uselly over 5%. Which makes sense.

    Ur theory does make sense. But I still dont get why R1b L23 is so popular in areas were Anatolian languages never dominated unless the Hittites made a huge effect in those areas. I guess it is really spread out in Anatolia which could be because of the Hittites.



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Considering that R1b surely stayed between 2000 or 3000 years in the steppe before invading Southeast Europe that is hard to believe that all subclades under L23 evolved so slowly afterwards. The gap between L23 and L11 would be almost 5000 years !

    In my view, it was P297 which crossed the Caucasus and divided into M269 and M73 in the Steppe (Pontic vs Caspian).



    What I meant was that the R1b-M73 in the Bashkirs was there since the Bronze Age. On the other hand, the Y-haplogroup N lineages probably came later, either with Uralic or Turkic people. Since the modern Bashkirs have been hybridised with Siberian N lineages they do not look anything like their Bronze Age ancestors anymore.
    Isn't it according to ur theory it was in the steppes for 2,000-3,000 years. I think it is possible that R1b L23 went up to the steppes just 7,000ybp then to southeast Europe 6,000ybp and developed into R1b L51. While the L23 that stayed in the mid east formed into Z2103. The only Indo European languages that obviously spread from the steppes and Yamna culture in Indo Iranian and Balto Slavic because of their R1a1a1b S224 and Y DNA from their supposedly ancestor culture's which descended from Yamna. I dont really know that much about the ancient cultures but maybe Indo Europeans began in the north mid east. Then one branch spread to the steppes 6,000-7,000ybp mixed culturally with the Bug Dniester people and started Yamna culture. And Germanic Italo Celtic, Greek, Thracen-Dacen, Illyrain, Anatolian, Armenian all migrated out of mid east to southeast Europe or stayed around the north mid east.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered
    Fire Haired's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-06-13
    Posts
    689
    Points
    4,121
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,121, Level: 18
    Level completed: 68%, Points required for next Level: 129
    Overall activity: 42.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Df27(Spain)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2(Prussia)

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic, Latino(~6%)
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Mordvins, and udmurts ( same area) the location of Udmurtia correlates quite nicely with Greek accounts of the Budini people, who were essentially described as forest-dwelling light-pigmented hunter-gatherers.
    Herodutus stated the budini had bright red hair

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budini
    The Budni were Indo Iranian speaking Scythian's so they ad bronze, iron, farming, and alot of other advanced stuff. 3,000 and 3,400 year old redhead mummies in tarium basin China were also most likely indo Iranian speakers. Red hair still pops up in Indo Iranian speakers in the mid east even though they were almost completely melted into those people. Maybe Udmurts have alot of INdo Iranian sycthian blood but i would except their R1a to be Indo Iranian R1a1a1b1 Z93 then.

    http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...ry-of-red-hair

  23. #23
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered
    Fire Haired's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-06-13
    Posts
    689
    Points
    4,121
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,121, Level: 18
    Level completed: 68%, Points required for next Level: 129
    Overall activity: 42.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Df27(Spain)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2(Prussia)

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic, Latino(~6%)
    Country: USA - California



    Matrbir so the Volga people R1b is mainly R1b M269 . It looks like mainly r1b L23 with some Germanic Italo Celtic branches like Italo Gaulish R1b U152/S28, Germanic R1b s21/U106, and Italo Celtic R1b S116*. I guess that could be evidence for what Maciamo is saying that R1b M269 or maybe R1b L23 migrated out of the steppes to southeast Europe. Because how else do u explain R1b L23 in modern steppes. If u say from the central and north mid east were it is most popular. Then is the major Y DNa haplogroup in that area J match up with how popular it should be if it is from inter marriage. If not then maybe the R1b L23 there is original.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    04-01-12
    Posts
    125
    Points
    10,961
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,961, Level: 31
    Level completed: 59%, Points required for next Level: 289
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Country: Poland



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The particularity of the Mordvins is their high levels of haplogroups R1b (13.5%), I1 (12%) and I2-M223 (5%), which combined with 26.5% of R1a could mean that they are not just blended with European Russians, but with an even higher percentage of Swedish Vikings, accounting for perhaps 40 to 45% of male lineages. That would explain their high incidence of blue eyes and brown or red hair as opposed to the dominant black in the Volga-Ural region. Blond hair would have been lost with the high percentage of Siberian admixture.
    Vikings if they even been there ones, I thing they didn’t have any impact on Mordvins community. Better candidate for contribution of I1 in Mordvins are Bulgars. They moved from Black Sea to Volga-Kama area and probably took some Goths with them.
    Quote Originally Posted by GloomyGonzales View Post
    Mordvins do not have European clades of R1b as well as Scandinavian clades of I1&I2 and R1a. They have typical Central and Eastern European set of I1&I2 and R1a clades that can be found in any Slavic population. Autosomally Mordvins (Erzya) pretty much overlap with Central Russians while Mordvins(Moksha) are closer to Tatars.
    By the way Finnic and Turkic people of Volga region have a lot of Central European clades of I1 (5-15%) and no European clades of R1b (especially U106). This means that I1&I2 and R1b clades did not mix in Central Europe in prehistoric times coz R1b clades were virtually absent in Central Europe.
    Where can I find data about R1b and I subclades for Mordvins? I cannot fully agree with you because Myres et al.2010 Found 2,5% of R1b U106 in Tatars.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    Matrbir so the Volga people R1b is mainly R1b M269 . It looks like mainly r1b L23 with some Germanic Italo Celtic branches like Italo Gaulish R1b U152/S28, Germanic R1b s21/U106, and Italo Celtic R1b S116*. I guess that could be evidence for what Maciamo is saying that R1b M269 or maybe R1b L23 migrated out of the steppes to southeast Europe. Because how else do u explain R1b L23 in modern steppes. If u say from the central and north mid east were it is most popular. Then is the major Y DNa haplogroup in that area J match up with how popular it should be if it is from inter marriage. If not then maybe the R1b L23 there is original.
    Bashkirs probably are composed from many populations of different origins. Some of them were carrying M73 but it is not the proving that expansion of this mutation started in this area. I would rather suggest that M73 come from Central Asia with Turkic invaders, whose descendants are Karachays (5,8%), Balkars (10,3%) and Turks (Anatolia 1,1%), while in neighboring non Turkic populations no one was found to be M73. Second thing is that if M73 originated in southern Urals it probably should be found in Balkans (end of steppe highway), but it is not. The case is probably more complex.
    Interesting is how U152 reached southern Urals. I have no idea how it got there.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    23-07-11
    Posts
    131
    Points
    6,293
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,293, Level: 23
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 257
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a

    Country: Russian Federation



    Quote Originally Posted by matbir View Post
    Where can I find data about R1b and I subclades for Mordvins? I cannot fully agree with you because Myres et al.2010 Found 2,5% of R1b U106 in Tatars.
    I’d be surprised if Tatars did not have small amounts of U106 they lived side by side for 250 years with Volga Germans.

    Here’s FTDNA project for Erzya-Moksha
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ysnp
    Last edited by GloomyGonzales; 15-09-13 at 13:59.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •