I2a2b, R1a L664, and R1b S21 from 3,000ybp German Urnfield culture

[Fire Haired]

Just something for the time-line;

Jastorf was an Iron-age culture so it could not have influenced the Nordic-Bronze-age that preceded it;
Jastorf (Iron-age) was in turn influenced by the Hallstatt and LaTene Iron-age of the Danube/Alpine zone;


Sophie Bergerbrant - Bronze Age Identities (2007)
Kristiansen (1998:68ff) argues that the Nordic Bronze Age culture was composed of elements of general European origin, such as tumulus barrows and later urn burials, and components of genuine Nordic origin, e.g. the lurs and female belt ornaments.

Apart from the Burial rites (Tumulus/Urns) also the Weaponry [Griffzungenschwerter] is identical to
the Urnfield culture complex;

Urnfield Griffzungenschwerter in the Nordic-Bronze-age ~1200 BC;

The Nordic-Bronze-age did not greatly diff. from the Urnfield culture complex;
Which is also manifested by the continued Hallstatt and LaTene influence in Jastorf during the Iron-age;

All of this needs to be viewed of course within the broad archaic Indo-European context of
proto-Keltic and proto-Germanic;

Lichtenstein cave was part of the Urnfield culture complex - Unstrut-Gruppe;

Probably because Urnfield and Nordic bronze age went back to the same ancestor 4,500-5,000ybp so just 1,000-2,000 years before the two cultures strated. I think they go back to a Germanic Italo Celtic speaking father culture with R1b L11.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...-and-conqueres-of-Bronze-Iron-age-west-Europe

 

[Fire Haired]

Tabaccus Maximus i hope u noticed that it said Nordic bronze age had Tumlu burials same thing as KUrgens so deifntley Indo Europeans.

 

[Tabaccus Maximus]

Just something for the time-line;

Jastorf was an Iron-age culture so it could not have influenced the Nordic-Bronze-age that preceded it;
Jastorf (Iron-age) was in turn influenced by the Hallstatt and LaTene Iron-age of the Danube/Alpine zone;


;

I don't disagree with what you've said. Let me clarify my point
which was that a latter Urnfield 'descended' culture like Jastorf influenced the Nordic Bronze age culture (already ancient).
And that the Nordic Bronze age wasn't necessarily 'germanic speaking' but came under the influence of a culture to the South.

Basically, the German Urheimat may belong futher South and that would be in the Urnfield.

In short, I think the ydna results of the Urnfield cemetery support that point to a degree.
1. An evolution of a culture of people begining in the vicinity of Dacia, Thracia, Moesia
2. Migrating during the Bronze Age collapse and contributing to the formation of the Urnfield (I2a2b, R1b-S21)
3. Heavily influencing and expanding on on the North Sea R1b-U152 and North Bronze Age R1a cultures occupied by a mix of people ultimately descending from the ancient Beaker and Corded Ware cultures.

 

[Tabaccus Maximus]

OK, I don't get it. You think I2-L38 has a Dacian and Moesian connection? Do you have a specific challenge to De Beule's network analysis of eastern L38 samples that would indicate a migration the other direction? I2-L38 really isn't very common in the region you're proposing, and although De Beule's analysis is the only one I've seen, it doesn't support high diversity there either.

And that's not to even go into R1b-S21. That's eastern too now?

As to the first question, I would say that a component within the Urnfield has a connection to Southeast Europe. In my view, the genetic results of the Urnfield cemetery may eventually support that hypothesis, but I will concede I don't have much to offer other than a thin interpretation based on a single snapshot. The heavy distribution of haplogroup I seems to correspond with a racial type that is unusually tall and strongly built. The descriptions and reliefs featuring Dacians, Thracians and Gatae show people unusually tall even by standards of presumed IE derived peoples. The body composition of these people looks to me (amatueur) more than coincidental to the type seen in the North Sea area. I think it's probable that the people in the North Sea/Scandinavia area are more directly descended from a European ancestral to the later D-T-G peoples. I'll explain why I am skeptical of the paleolithic origins of the larger haplogroup in Europe below.
As to the second:
I don't think that De Beule's paper nullifies my original point. It's reasonable to agrue that I2a2b's presence in modern SE Europe could be in large part explained by Folk Migrations or the Holy Roman Empire, however L38's youth also means that it had to have developed about the time just prior to the Urnfield expansion. So the apparent German descent of many of the families in these areas don't also necessarily negate its recent origin in the same place.
Also, I found one of your earlier posts on this site regarding the potential bottlenecking of the 11 or so major clades. If it is the case that I's subclades were severely bottlenecked during the early or late neolithic, it would make sense that all or most of those remnant clades were similarly located during whatever cataclysm, rather than being spread out over the continent. If they shared a common fate, they probably shared it together. And it could have easily been a plague caused by climate change at the end of the Neolithic that decimated the farming communities of Europe, not necessarily bizerk Indo-Europeans. The bizarre distribution of I may be a result of founder effect after the bottleneck of an older haplotype like I, not necessarily disconnected vestiges of the paleolithic.

 

[Tabaccus Maximus]

Also R1b S21, I2a2, and red hair in Scandinavia has very similar distributions because they were all spread by Grmanic speakers into Scandinavia starting with Nordic bronze age culture.

Well, for that matter, you could say the same about the later Thracians. So the fact that someone has red hair doesn't make them speak German. Who's to say that the Nordic Bronze age people didn't speak proto-Celtic? Not saying they did, just asking.

 

[Fire Haired]

Well, for that matter, you could say the same about the later Thracians. So the fact that someone has red hair doesn't make them speak German. Who's to say that the Nordic Bronze age people didn't speak proto-Celtic? Not saying they did, just asking.

What i am saying is the Nordic Bronze age culture was defintley Indo European. And that I2a2, R1b S21, and red hair obvisouly come from the same migration into Scandnavia from central Europe which is defintley from the same migration GErmanic languages came with and Nordic bronze age culture. German speakers did not migrate out of far northern Germany, netherlands, and south Scandnavia untill around 700bc in the iron age. And nordic bronze age culture ended in 500bc. It seems obvious to me Germanic languages exsisted very far north and that decendants of Nordic bronze age culture later migrated south adn we know they spoke german languages. It makes total sense. R1b S116 Italo Celts the brother group to R1b S21 German were already all over western Europe mainly France with Tumlus culture 3,500ybp and probably made it to the British isles with R1b l21 around that time. Why would German languages only be in south Scandinavia since 2,700ybp Nordic bronze age is the right time and place for early German speakers.

No way am i saying German speakers or proto Germanic italo Celtic speakers were the first redheads. Of course red hair exists in other people like Thracens,, proto Indo Iranian speakers, Samartiens. Origin and Ancient history of red hair.