I2a-Din came to the Balkans and Dinaric Alps with the Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians

[Aberdeen]

well terms being used in this forum and others , as an example, R1a is slavic and I1 is germanic etc, is distorting the truth to gain, either some nationalistic lands or to prove that in old history ( ancients ) that they existed. Its to justify the existence of the nation they are in, not realising that nations only emerged in the 18th century.............pure paranoia

In many cases, it's perhaps less paranoia than a tendency to generalize. It should be obvious that some of us have a new-found interest in DNA, as a result of having our own DNA analysed recently, but are generalists without much knowledge of genetics.

[Plutarch]

I2a1 P37.2

I2a1b L178/S328, M423

I2a1b1 M359.2/P41.2

I2a1b2 L161.1/S185

I2a1b3 L621/S392 (Former I2a2a in the Y2010 tree, L69.2)

I2a1b3a L147.2 (din s/n)

I-M423[edit]
Haplogroup I-M423 is the most frequent Y-chromosome Haplogroup I-M170 in Central and Eastern European populations, reaching its peak in the Western Balkans, most notably in Dalmatia (50-60%[1]) and Bosnia-Herzegovina (up to 71%,[17] avg. 40-50%[1]). A greater variance of this group has been found in Ireland and Great Britain, but overall frequency is very low (2-3%). Haplogroup I-M423 is virtually absent in Fennoscandia, Western and Southwestern Europe.

I-L69.2 (L69.2(=T)/S163.2) {rs9786274} is typical of the South Slavic populations of south-eastern Europe, being highest in Bosnia-Herzegovina (>50%).[1] Haplogroup I-L69.2 is also commonly found in north-eastern Italians.[12] There is also a high concentration of I-L69.2 in north-east Romania, Moldova and western Ukraine. Several groups have determined the common occurrence of this subclade in the South Slavic-speaking populations to be the result of "pre-Slavic" paleolithic settlement in the region. Peričić et al. for instance places its expansion to have occurred "not earlier than the YD to Holocene transition and not later than the early Neolithic”.


Can somebody help me to decide Which of those two are Illyrian, i. e. Bosnian moslems and Croats, M423 or L69.2, since L147.2 is probably original Croat, Serb and bosnian Serb?

[Eldritch]

Can somebody help me to decide Which of those two are Illyrian, i. e. Bosnian moslems and Croats, M423 or L69.2, since L147.2 is probably original Croat, Serb and bosnian Serb?

None of them is.

[gyms]

Several groups have determined the common occurrence of this subclade in the South Slavic-speaking populations to be the result of "pre-Slavic" paleolithic settlement in the region.

This is outh ofdate.

Lazaridis, I. et al. (2013), Ancient human genomes suggest three ancestral populations for Europeans, pre-print online 23 December 2013. http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2013/12/23/001552


Analysis of ancient DNA can reveal historical events that are difficult to discern through study of present-day individuals. To investigate European population history around the time of the agricultural transition, we sequenced complete genomes from a ~7,500 year old early farmer from the Linearbandkeramik (LBK) culture from Stuttgart in Germany and an ~8,000 year old hunter-gatherer from the Loschbour rock shelter in Luxembourg. We also generated data from seven ~8,000 year old hunter-gatherers from Motala in Sweden. We compared these genomes and published ancient DNA to new data from 2,196 samples from 185 diverse populations to show that at least three ancestral groups contributed to present-day Europeans. The first are Ancient North Eurasians (ANE), who are more closely related to Upper Paleolithic Siberians than to any present-day population. The second are West European Hunter-Gatherers (WHG), related to the Loschbour individual, who contributed to all Europeans but not to Near Easterners. The third are Early European Farmers (EEF), related to the Stuttgart individual, who were mainly of Near Eastern origin but also harbored WHG-related ancestry. We model the deep relationships of these populations and show that about ~44% of the ancestry of EEF derived from a basal Eurasian lineage that split prior to the separation of other non-Africans.


Loschbour, Heffingen [LSB 1] (6220-5990 BC): dark hair, 50% probability of blue eyes. Y-DNA I2a1b* (L178+, M423+, P37.2+, L460+, M438+, L68+, P38+, M170+, M359.2-, L161.1-, L621-)

Motola males c. 6000 BC:

Motola 2: I* (P38+ , U179+ , L41+, M253-, L37-)
Motola 3: I2 (L68+, M258+, U179+, L181-, L417-)
Motola 9: I* (P38+, P40-)
Motola 12: I2a1b* (L178+, M423+, P37.2+, L460+, L68+, M170+, M258+, U179+, M359.2-, L621-)
(Jean M)

[Plutarch]

So, you claim that other Bosnians like Croats and moslems from I2a Happlotypes also belong, "just like 99% of the Serbs" to the I2a1b3a L147.2 (din s/n) subcluster?

[kamani]

Several groups have determined the common occurrence of this subclade in the South Slavic-speaking populations to be the result of "pre-Slavic" paleolithic settlement in the region.

This is outh ofdate.

Lazaridis, I. et al. (2013), Ancient human genomes suggest three ancestral populations for Europeans, pre-print online 23 December 2013. http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2013/12/23/001552


Analysis of ancient DNA can reveal historical events that are difficult to discern through study of present-day individuals. To investigate European population history around the time of the agricultural transition, we sequenced complete genomes from a ~7,500 year old early farmer from the Linearbandkeramik (LBK) culture from Stuttgart in Germany and an ~8,000 year old hunter-gatherer from the Loschbour rock shelter in Luxembourg. We also generated data from seven ~8,000 year old hunter-gatherers from Motala in Sweden. We compared these genomes and published ancient DNA to new data from 2,196 samples from 185 diverse populations to show that at least three ancestral groups contributed to present-day Europeans. The first are Ancient North Eurasians (ANE), who are more closely related to Upper Paleolithic Siberians than to any present-day population. The second are West European Hunter-Gatherers (WHG), related to the Loschbour individual, who contributed to all Europeans but not to Near Easterners. The third are Early European Farmers (EEF), related to the Stuttgart individual, who were mainly of Near Eastern origin but also harbored WHG-related ancestry. We model the deep relationships of these populations and show that about ~44% of the ancestry of EEF derived from a basal Eurasian lineage that split prior to the separation of other non-Africans.


Loschbour, Heffingen [LSB 1] (6220-5990 BC): dark hair, 50% probability of blue eyes. Y-DNA I2a1b* (L178+, M423+, P37.2+, L460+, M438+, L68+, P38+, M170+, M359.2-, L161.1-, L621-)

Motola males c. 6000 BC:

Motola 2: I* (P38+ , U179+ , L41+, M253-, L37-)
Motola 3: I2 (L68+, M258+, U179+, L181-, L417-)
Motola 9: I* (P38+, P40-)
Motola 12: I2a1b* (L178+, M423+, P37.2+, L460+, L68+, M170+, M258+, U179+, M359.2-, L621-)
(Jean M)

So in a nutshell, the south-slavic I2a-Din did not exist 8000 years ago, because around that time all we find is its distant ancestors.

[gyms]

"So in a nutshell, the south-slavic I2a-Din did not exist 8000 years ago, because around that time all we find is its distant ancestors. "

Yes ,in Northern Europe and Scandinavia.

[Plutarch]

I actually think that Slaws were begotten through Sarmatians and Gets (Thracians) in Sarmizegetusa. Now, Thracians are a mix of a majority of I2a and R1a. Wasn't there any analysis of the skeletons of those preceeding populations?

[james stock]

"So in a nutshell, the south-slavic I2a-Din did not exist 8000 years ago, because around that time all we find is its distant ancestors. "

Yes ,in Northern Europe and Scandinavia.

No, you cannot prove with the existence of an older branch that the younger branch doesn't exist, even in Northern Europe or Scandinavia. It doesn't logically follow.

[gyms]

"Now, Thracians are a mix of a majority of I2a and R1a. "
OK. but how do you know that?Is there any Thracian aDNA?

[gyms]

No, you cannot prove with the existence of an older branch that the younger branch doesn't exist, even in Northern Europe or Scandinavia. It doesn't logically follow.

Riht.According to Ken Nordtvedt y haplogroup I2a1b3a is 2030 years old.

[adamo]

How did an I2a3* alpine (L233-) man end up in the Pisa region of Tuscany, any suggestions or info on this branch would be much appreciated. Which migrations could have brought it and where is it most frequent?

[adamo]

Would it have arrived via recent migration or is it a piece of italian pre-history?

[sparkey]

How did an I2a3* alpine (L233-) man end up in the Pisa region of Tuscany, any suggestions or info on this branch would be much appreciated. Which migrations could have brought it and where is it most frequent?

Would it have arrived via recent migration or is it a piece of italian pre-history?

Nordtvedt places it at over 3000 years old, and its center of diversity seems to be north of Italy (although samples of it are sparse), indicating that it probably came from the north within the last 3000 years. I'm having trouble getting more specific than that. Perhaps a Cisalpine Gaul marker that drifted westward from the Senigallia area to the Pisa area in the Middle Ages or something? (Total speculation without much ground.)

[adamo]

So it's quite young....it's difficult cause there's a lot of Europe north of Italy on both sides lol, it doesn't seem to have anything to do with celts that's the particularity, there really isn't any info on this subclade it's depressing.

[adamo]

What region of Europe more or less is it found in? Germany, holland? At what frequency?

[Dule84]

For me it is interesting to find out to which haplogroups belonged the members of old Balkan cultures, for example people who created the culture at Lepen Whirl, eastern Serbia (peak about 7,000 years ago). Skeletons of these people has been saved and probably it is possible to determine haplogroups (I started thread on it).

Also Vincha culture (Serbia, Romania) who had early period (7,500-6,800 years ago) and late period (6,800-6,200 years ago). Researches of this kind will surely be performed and we see results.

"After quite a number of old tested DNA from Neolithic sites in region Starcevo primarily as well as the surrounding Neolithic cultures, there is little doubt that the majority of the population consisted of Vinca population is predominantly belonged to haplogroup G2a. He is here and there to be some Cro-Magnon and I haplogroups. In autosomal dna today nearest formerly Vinca were the inhabitants of Sardinia."

This information is not 100% official

[LeBrok]

"After quite a number of old tested DNA from Neolithic sites in region Starcevo primarily as well as the surrounding Neolithic cultures, there is little doubt that the majority of the population consisted of Vinca population is predominantly belonged to haplogroup G2a. He is here and there to be some Cro-Magnon and I haplogroups. In autosomal dna today nearest formerly Vinca were the inhabitants of Sardinia."

This information is not 100% official

This seems to be right. Welcome to Eupedia Dule84.

[Cip]

I2a1b in Balkans is clearly of Slavic derivation and has nothing to do absolutely with indigenous Thraco Illyrians, which would have been mostly E-V13, J2 with probably a R1b elite.

Then how do you explain the I2a-Din in kurdish population and the hi % of I2a in Vlachs and Romanian all around in Balkans?

[slodok]

Did Dinaric anthropology is closer to Cro Magnon than any one from *old* I haplogrups.Something stink big time.

[DuPidh]

Then how do you explain the I2a-Din in kurdish population and the hi % of I2a in Vlachs and Romanian all around in Balkans?

Explanation: Before Slavs making it to the Balkans spend a lot of time in Romania. Many Slavs were absorbed in today's Romanian population. Its believed that the initial homeland of I2a is Ukraine-Romania border. Same thing for Kurd's its Slavic invasion.

[DuPidh]

Dinarics are often considered a sub-race of white race. They have physical traits that makes them distinguishable. But one can not say that I2 is responsible for Dinaricity. Dinarics are present all over Europe and if my observations are right Dinarics appear where early farmers are present. Dinaricity is not a Slavic trait. Its almost nonexistent in Poland, Russia, Belarus etc...

[gyms]

Dinaric for I2a... is a nickname invented by Ken Nordtvedt. It's nothing.

[LeBrok]

Dinarics are often considered a sub-race of white race.

Never heard that before. You should change your friends.

[DuPidh]

Never heard that before. You should change your friends.

Really! Google "Coon and races" and you will hear about it. Coon was an anthropologist at Harvard. Its not my invention. Dinaricity is a physical characteristic that I can not define, that distinguishes the person from other Europeans. Coon thought that Dinarics were byproduct of Mediterraneans meeting the Nordics or something like that. Other words hybrids of Mediterranean looking people with Celts or other European sub races. You never noticed that a German physically looks different from an Italian? My view was that Ia is not responsible for dinaricity since some south Slavic countries are not Dinarics.