I2a-Din came to the Balkans and Dinaric Alps with the Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians

[Nik]

Even North Albanians can score more than 20% Baltic on Gedmatch K13, so Bosnia's results aren't any surprise.

Anyway, it seems logical that the ancestor of CTS10228 came to Eastern Europe from Germany of France with Celts or Germanics. It's closest cousin as far as I remember is I2a-Disles.

As for its distribution in the Balkans, personally I see the Goths are a more important contributor rather than Slavs. What comes to mind are the Thracian Goths, Moesian Goths, and Pannonian Goths which could have been later Romanized just like we find many native/Vlach tribes in Montenegro and Herzegovina belonging to I1.

 

[Kingslav]

Even North Albanians can score more than 20% Baltic on Gedmatch K13, so Bosnia's results aren't any surprise. Anyway, it seems logical that the ancestor of CTS10228 came to Eastern Europe from Germany of France with Celts or Germanics. It's closest cousin as far as I remember is I2a-Disles. As for its distribution in the Balkans, personally I see the Goths are a more important contributor rather than Slavs. What comes to mind are the Thracian Goths, Moesian Goths, and Pannonian Goths which could have been later Romanized just like we find many native/Vlach tribes in Montenegro and Herzegovina belonging to I1.

It is not possible for Goths to carry I2A-DIN to Balkans, Goths at this period were still inhabiting Scandinavia.

"Sometime around the 1st century AD, Germanic peoples may have migrated from Scandinavia to Gothiscandza, in present-day Poland. Early archaeological evidence in the traditional Swedish province of Östergötland suggests a general depopulation during this period." - Goths Wikipedia

The Celts can be found in Western European DNA where R1B is peaking at over 80% or more.

 

[Nik]

I didn't say Goths brought it, I said they could have contributed by absorbing many tribes and bringing them down to the Balkans. And we know that they absorbed many Getae/Dacians, Bastarnae, Roxolani, Scythians, etc.

Similarly, when we say Slavs bringing I2a-Din to the Balkans, it's highly likely that many knowledgeable members think that they contributed to its distribution by either having pushed the clade further South or absorbed it. I don't think that the majority of members believe that I2a-Din was present during the ethnogenesis of early Proto-Slavs.

 

[Kingslav]

Here is about Thracians.


"It is generally proposed that a proto-Thracian people developed from a mixture of indigenous peoples and Indo-Europeans from the time of Proto-Indo-European expansion in the Early Bronze Age. Divided into separate tribes, the Thracians did not manage to form a lasting political organization until the Odrysian state was founded in the fifth century BC. A strong Dacian state appeared in the first century BC, during the reign of King Burebista. Including the Illyrians, the mountainous regions were home to various peoples regarded as warlike and ferocious Thracian tribes, while the plains peoples were apparently regarded as more peaceable. Thracians inhabited parts of the ancient provinces of Thrace, Moesia, Macedonia, Dacia, Scythia Minor, Sarmatia, Bithynia, Mysia, Pannonia, and other regions of the Balkans and Anatolia. This area extended over most of the Balkans region, and the Getae north of the Danube as far as beyond the Bug and including Panonia in the west. There were about 200 Thracian tribes."- Thracians Wikipedia

 

[Kingslav]

Even North Albanians can score more than 20% Baltic on Gedmatch K13, so Bosnia's results aren't any surprise.

Anyway, it seems logical that the ancestor of CTS10228 came to Eastern Europe from Germany of France with Celts or Germanics. It's closest cousin as far as I remember is I2a-Disles.

As for its distribution in the Balkans, personally I see the Goths are a more important contributor rather than Slavs. What comes to mind are the Thracian Goths, Moesian Goths, and Pannonian Goths which could have been later Romanized just like we find many native/Vlach tribes in Montenegro and Herzegovina belonging to I1.

West Balkans is showing I1 Haplogroup 5% Kosovo, Herzegovina, and Montenegro. Goth Vikings migration? However, southwestern Ukraine, I1 haplogroup is rarely found at rate of 1.1%, so unlikely that Goths had contribution to I2A-DIN.

Here is Ukrainian averages Y-DNA Haplogroups

50% R1A1
21% I2A
8.7% E1B1B1
6.5% N1C
5.5% J2A1
3.3% G2A
2.2% R1B1B2 Celts?
1.1% Q1
1.1% H1A
1.1% I1 Goths?
0.5% T

 

[Dumidre]

Hello,
I'm new in this forum and a novice when it comes to paleo-genetics... I did a DNA test with National Geographic and my regional ancestry came 53% Italy, 44% Eastern European and 3% Jewish Diaspora. My paternal line is I-L621 and my maternal line is H6A1A. I am born in Romania from parents that come from the same region (at least 4 generations). I'm looking at my 53% Italian DNA and I'm guessing is from the Roman colonization of Dacia (the percentage is quite higher than the Romanian average)... the only explanation I found is that Pons Aluti (a Roman Fort designed to protect the Dacian Malvensis border) was only 15 miles from my ancestors village, hence heavily Roman presence. What makes me wonder is the Eastern European part of my DNA. Where do we position de Dacian DNA? Is it Eastern European, is it Southern European? My Y-DNA is I-L621... is it as old as my Dacian ancestors or is it from the more recent Slavic expansion to the south? I would appreciate your level headed input. (I'm not trying to start another heated debate about the subject).
Thanks!

 

[Nik]

West Balkans is showing I1 Haplogroup 5% Kosovo, Herzegovina, and Montenegro. Goth Vikings migration? However, southwestern Ukraine, I1 haplogroup is rarely found at rate of 1.1%, so unlikely that Goths had contribution to I2A-DIN.

Ukraine is in the Balkans according to you?

 

[Kingslav]

Ukraine is in the Balkans according to you?

Ukraine is Eastern Europe.

Odessa, Vinnytsia, Chernivtsi, Zakarpattia Oblasts where Im from are latitudinally aligned with Zagreb, Ljubljana, Budapest places generally considered North Balkans so I will leave that for your interpretations.

I never said once Ukraine is in Balkans for record. This is irrelvant though, DNA is shared despite any border imaginations.

 

[Azzurro]

here is part of cts10228 in yfull 5.04v



its age is 5300ybp

ybp is set at = 1950 AD

so age of CTS10228 is 1950-5300 = 3350BC ............that is the age of the first positive CTS10228 .................who do you think was around in south Poland in 3350BC ?


then we have TMRCA
(TMRCA) estimates can be given based on DNA test results and established mutation rates as practiced in genetic genealogy,

so that result is 1950-2300 = 350BC ..............again who was in south Poland at the time of 350BC .................we all know it was not slavic or are you trying to rewrite history ?

............................

CTS10228 came from

I-CTS4002SK1240/YP198/S23503 * CTS10936 * YP195/S24427+6 SNPsformed 6600 ybp, TMRCA 5300 ybp info

so it's negative ( if it is found ) would be 1300 older than 3350BC

I guess you completely misunderstood what I am saying, even in the Yfull picture you posted you see there is also one from France which I mentioned and you completely ignore. Also when the * is marked like we see in that Southern Pole and that French individual it means they share all the mutations of I-CTS10228 until 2300 ybp meaning that's when it branched off. I don't understand how I am trying to rewrite history when I am suggesting either a Scythian or Celtic origin for this subclade, maybe it is you who tries to rewrite history like saying the Albanians are descendants of Bastarnae and are not Illyrians, its very clear that I-CTS10228 suffered a bottleneck from 5300 ybp to 2300 ybp thats 3000 years.

 

[Leka]

Goths were predominantly I1-Z63 but perhaps they also carried some I2a2 and R1b, which can be found in the Balkans today in small percentage. Z63 though is the line that really fits their movements best, samples found in the Balkans (Albanians, Montenegrins...etc) are closely related to Germans, some eastern Slavic groups and as west as Spaniards (where Goths actually settled). If Goths or Germanics in general had anything to do with CTS10228, we would also bee seeing similar distribution like that of Z63, and even Spaniards would be carrying it.

That's not the case now, is it?

 

[Trojet]

and the slavs where not there at the time of CTS10228 ...................you are more than 1000 years difference

Sure, the Slavs just dropped out of the sky during Early Middle Ages. What you're essentially saying here is that since the Slavs were not mentioned at 300 BC, their ancestors must've not existed, LOL.

@Azzurro, it appears you ended up in Sile's bad list, just because you said Albanians are Illyrians.
And you're absolutely right that Sile is the one who constantly tries to rewrite history.

 

[Sile]

I guess you completely misunderstood what I am saying, even in the Yfull picture you posted you see there is also one from France which I mentioned and you completely ignore. Also when the * is marked like we see in that Southern Pole and that French individual it means they share all the mutations of I-CTS10228 until 2300 ybp meaning that's when it branched off. I don't understand how I am trying to rewrite history when I am suggesting either a Scythian or Celtic origin for this subclade, maybe it is you who tries to rewrite history like saying the Albanians are descendants of Bastarnae and are not Illyrians, its very clear that I-CTS10228 suffered a bottleneck from 5300 ybp to 2300 ybp thats 3000 years.

I never ignore the french person, i noted in other post, that it was likely he was from South-Poland

I also am saying that the marker cannot be Scythian or sarmatian

I bastarnae are of gallic/germanic mix as per historians and cannot be albanians if bulgarian and romanaian scholars are correct in their theory that the albanians originate from a land lock people called the carpi from the carpathian mountains
The Romans held all of albania lands since 146BC and never mentioned any Albanians until 150AD , they never mentioned illyrians there either, but did mention macedonians there ( including royal tombs of macedonians in albania )

The bastarnae where eventually fully absorbed into gothic society on the vicinity of the black sea by 200AD................and we know that 200 years later the goths invaded the roman empire and settled for over 200 years in ancient illyrian plus italian lands

 

[Sile]

Sure, the Slavs just dropped out of the sky during Early Middle Ages. What you're essentially saying here is that since the Slavs were not mentioned at 300 BC, their ancestors must've not existed, LOL.

@

who is talking about the middle-ages?

read what I said............the slavs where not in Poland until , at the earliest 600AD .....they where not in Poland before 600AD, I cannot make it any clearer .................you seem to think the slavs have been in poland since the bronze or iron age ...............let me know if you think this

You do not actually think that the slavs have always been where they are since time began , do you?

 

[Nik]

Goths were predominantly I1-Z63 but perhaps they also carried some I2a2 and R1b, which can be found in the Balkans today in small percentage. Z63 though is the line that really fits their movements best, samples found in the Balkans (Albanians, Montenegrins...etc) are closely related to Germans, some eastern Slavic groups and as west as Spaniards (where Goths actually settled). If Goths or Germanics in general had anything to do with CTS10228, we would also bee seeing similar distribution like that of Z63, and even Spaniards would be carrying it.

That's not the case now, is it?

This was for me or what?

If yes, read again what I wrote.

 

[Kingslav]

I guess you completely misunderstood what I am saying, even in the Yfull picture you posted you see there is also one from France which I mentioned and you completely ignore. Also when the * is marked like we see in that Southern Pole and that French individual it means they share all the mutations of I-CTS10228 until 2300 ybp meaning that's when it branched off. I don't understand how I am trying to rewrite history when I am suggesting either a Scythian or Celtic origin for this subclade, maybe it is you who tries to rewrite history like saying the Albanians are descendants of Bastarnae and are not Illyrians, its very clear that I-CTS10228 suffered a bottleneck from 5300 ybp to 2300 ybp thats 3000 years.

We can rule out Celtic Origin for I2A-DIN with 2.2% R1B in Ukraine and similar R1B rates all across the board in this region Eastern Europe.

 

[Leka]

This was for me or what?

If yes, read again what I wrote.

My post was generally addressed to the folks who are mentioning Germanic tribes in this discussion (same applies for Celtic tribes too). Didn't read your post too closely, but if you believe Goths carried it then it was for you as well.

 

[DuPidh]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qfyAkkBR46k

I score 99.5% Eastern European with Ancestry DNA, this does not imply my ancestry is 99.5% Indo-European. There is many groups incorporated into Slavic ethnogenesis that you will not find with Ancestry DNA. You are better off looking at Gedmatch ancient calculators. On youtube there is example of Bosnian score 79% East Europe with Ancestry DNA. The link above is example Bosnian 23andme, 65.6% Balkan, 21.4% Eastern European.

Skip to 2:50-3:30 important info for I2A-DIN thread.

Balkan is also Slavic DNA. Albanians are included in Italy/Greece category

 

[Azzurro]

Sure, the Slavs just dropped out of the sky during Early Middle Ages. What you're essentially saying here is that since the Slavs were not mentioned at 300 BC, their ancestors must've not existed, LOL.

@Azzurro, it appears you ended up in Sile's bad list, just because you said Albanians are Illyrians.
And you're absolutely right that Sile is the one who constantly tries to rewrite history.

For me there is undeniable evidence for an Illyrian and Albanian link whether or not he agrees, what is your opinion on the pre-origins of I-CTS10228 before the Slavic expansion, your opinion would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Kingslav]

Balkan is also Slavic DNA. Albanians are included in Italy/Greece category

Yes Albanians results mostly Italy/Greece with Ancestry, and mostly Greek with the Myheritage

 

[Azzurro]

I never ignore the french person, i noted in other post, that it was likely he was from South-Poland

I also am saying that the marker cannot be Scythian or sarmatian

I bastarnae are of gallic/germanic mix as per historians and cannot be albanians if bulgarian and romanaian scholars are correct in their theory that the albanians originate from a land lock people called the carpi from the carpathian mountains
The Romans held all of albania lands since 146BC and never mentioned any Albanians until 150AD , they never mentioned illyrians there either, but did mention macedonians there ( including royal tombs of macedonians in albania )

The bastarnae where eventually fully absorbed into gothic society on the vicinity of the black sea by 200AD................and we know that 200 years later the goths invaded the roman empire and settled for over 200 years in ancient illyrian plus italian lands

We don't know for sure he was from Southern Poland, but I agree we have to leave that possibility.

I disagree with you for the potential origin of I-CTS10228, I think there is a very good chance of it being Scythian and/or Sarmatian/Getae, two downstreams of I-CTS10228 which branched off earlier A2512 and SK1412 can only be from these two sources, as for the first line ended up in Greece and the other stretches all the way to the Volga two areas which the Bastarnae or any Germanic tribe ever reached and especially with those current TMRCA's. Then we get into two other branches of I-CTS10228 which are I-PH908 and I-S17250 which expanded with the Slavic migrations it very apparent with their modern distribution. To me it seems this line originally came from somewhere near where the Proto-Slavs were located, thus it spread from East to West, and the Scythian connection would make the most sense.