I2a-Din came to the Balkans and Dinaric Alps with the Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians

[Garrick]

Again, do you even understand genetics and archeology? Zarubintsy culture and Bastarnae are recorded circa since 3rd century BCE, while I-CTS10228 had TMRCA circa 3800 YBP i.e. circa 1800 BCE.

Evidence Zarubintsy culture is Bastarnatian is very important, and in previous pages there is a lot about Bastarnae, their origin and movements, I don't want repeat.

For example in #1117 is sublimated, who wants to read.

Bastarnae are strong candidate as carriers of I-CTS10228.

[Garrick]

How do you even dare to say that I do not trust scientists, institutes, and academies enough? Unlike you who don't trust some of them because of a consideration which ideologically doesn't fit your narrative? You cannot differentiate scientific opinion weight? Your argumentation is simply wrong and contradicting.

No.

Respectable Austrian Institute and scientists of this Institute are competent, neutral (not interested party) and much more reliable source than local scientists who really are much more biased.

If you notice I very rare, almost never, use Serbian sources, not because I consider them bad, but because of criteria of neutrality.

[LABERIA]

My theory about Bastarnae nothing to do with today's nations, South Slavic, Eastern Slavic, Western Slavic, nothing to do with Poreklo and I don't know what else. I never mentioned Boii. I have no idea how people link some things.

Really member Sile introduced Bastarnae as possible carriers of I-CTS10228. Never before that I thought about Bastarnae in this direction.

I was interested if Sile is right or no and started to explore. There are a lot of interesting things, and everything what was interesting to me I put in the forum.

Yes, here it is how Sile introduced the Bastarnae:

I have a work colleague, an Albanian heritage , who says ( was told by his gfather ) albanians originate as part the Bastanae ( mixed people ) and where part of the 80000 contingent that went from the south Carpathians mountain area to Macedonia to help Philip of Macedon defeat the advancing illyrians from the north .......I think it was about 350BC

I doubt that..........but the bastanae ....where a bastard people of different races

[Sile]

Yes, here it is how Sile introduced the Bastarnae:

yep and he provided me with
The most enigmatic ‘barbarian’ people to appear in southeastern Europe in the late Iron Age are undoubtedly the Bastarnae (Βαστάρναι / Βαστέρναι) tribes.
While archaeological/numismatic evidence indicates that the Bastarnae tribes had reached the Danube Delta as early as the second half of the 4th c. BC, they first appear in historical sources in connection with the events of 179 BC as allies of Philip V of Macedonia in his war with Rome (Livy 40:5, 57-58), and remain a constant factor in the history of southeastern Europe for over 500 years. Due to the fact that archaeologists have failed to associate a particular archaeological culture with the Bastarnae, the ethnic origin of this people has hitherto remained shrouded in mystery, with a lack of clarity on whether they were initially of Scythian, Germanic or Celtic origin. However, as illustrated below, a chronological analysis of the ancient sources relating to the Bastarnae in general, and archaeological, numismatic and linguistic evidence from the territory of the Bastarnae Peucini tribe in particular, enables us to finally shed some light on this question.
Later authors such as Dio Cassius (3rd c. AD – Dio LI.23.3, 24.2) and Zosimus (late 5th/early 6th c. AD – Zosimus I.34) define the Bastarnae as ‘Scythians’, and to a great extent this is true. By the late Roman period the Bastarnae tribes had been living in the region vaguely referred to as ‘Scythia’ for over half a millennium, and mixing with the local tribes (‘mixed marriages are giving them to some extent the vile appearance of the Sarmatians’ – Tac. Ger. 46). Thus, they were by this stage indeed Scythians, in the same way, for example, the Celtic Scordisci in Thrace are referred to in Roman sources as ‘Thracians’, having inhabited the region of Thrace for a number of centuries. However, as with the latter case, geographical situation by no means indicates ethnic origin.
While sources such as Strabo (early 1st c. AD – see below), and Tacitus (circa 100 AD; Tac. Ger. 43), are often cited to support the view that the Bastarnae were of Germanic origin, in fact a closer analysis of the testimony of both these sources reveals that neither is certain about who the Bastarnae were. While Strabo informs us that the Bastarnae lived mixed with the Thracian and Celtic tribes in Thrace, both north and south of the river, he also admits, ‘I know neither the Bastarnae, nor the Sarmatae nor, in a word, any of the peoples who dwell above the Pontus’ (Strabo VII, 2:4). Tacitus states the following:
‘Peucini, quos quidam Bastarnas, vocunt sermon cultu, sede ac domiciliis ut Germani agunt’ (Tac. op cit.), i.e. – he informs us not that the Bastarnae were Germani, but that they were ‘similar to the Germani’. In this case one should bear in mind that many of the Celts who migrated into southeastern Europe and Asia-Minor from the end of the 4th c. BC onwards originated from the Belgae group of Celtic tribes (see also ‘Galatia’ article), who are described in ancient sources as being most like the Germani.
The other ancient authors are clear on the ethnic origin of the Bastarnae. The earliest source, Polybius (200-118 BC; XXIV 9,13) refers to them as Celtic (Galatians), while Livy (59 BC – 17 AD) tells us that they had the same customs and spoke the same language as the Celtic Scordisci, and also mentions close military and political ties between the Bastarnae and Scordisci (Livy 40:57). Plutarch (46 – 120 AD; Aem. 9.6) refers to them as ‘Gauls on the Danube who are called Bastarnae’.

THE BASTARNAE IN THRACE
It was in the wake of the aforementioned events of 179 BC that the Peucini, the southern branch of the Bastarnae, were drawn south of the Danube into Thrace. They were at this stage a powerful military and political force in southeastern Europe, which is illustrated by the enthusiasm that Philip V of Macedonia showed at the prospect of being allied to them:
‘The envoys whom he had sent to the Bastarnae to summon assistance had returned and brought back with them some young nobles, amongst them some of royal blood. One of these promised to give his sister in marriage to Philip’s son, and the king was quite elated at the prospect of an alliance with that nation’ (Livy 40:5).
Although Philip’s sudden death meant that the joint attack on Rome by the Macedonians and Bastarnae came to nothing, by this time a large group of the (Peucini) Bastarnae had already migrated into Thrace, and a group of 30,000 of them subsequently settled in Dardania; another larger group of Bastarnae returned eastwards and settled in the area of today’s eastern Bulgaria (Livy 40:58), where Bastarnae kingdoms were established in the Dobruja area. At the beginning of the 1st c. AD Strabo (VII, 3:2) mentions that the ethnic make-up of this area consisted of a complex mix of Thracians, Scythians, Celts and Bastarnae:
“the Bastarnae tribes are mingled with the Thracians, more indeed with those beyond the Ister (Danube), but also with those this side. And mingled with them are also the Celtic tribes…”.
A thriving ‘barbarian’ culture emerged in this area (southeastern Romania/northeastern Bulgaria) during the 2nd/ 1st c. BC, based on a symbiotic relationship between these various groups and the Greek Black Sea colonies – a culture which was brought to a brutal end in the mid 1st c. BC by the destructive rampage of the Getic leader Burebista, which also paved the way for the Roman conquest of the Dobruja.
A policy was implemented by the Macedonian King Philip V in 179 BC. In order to neutralize the Dardanii tribes, traditional Macedonian enemies, Philip struck a deal with the Celtic Scordisci and the Bastarnae, whereby the latter would be resettled in Dardania, thus eliminating the Dardanii threat, and ensuring Bastarnae help for Macedonia’s planned war with Rome (Livy 40:57, 41:19).
The Sevtopolis experiment failed miserably when, in the face of the Celtic advance, the Thracians simply abandoned the city and fled. Philip’s partially successful attempt to resettle the Bastarnae in Dardania produced no long term benefits for Macedonia, and following his death the Bastarnae refused to fight for Philip’s son, Perseus, in his war with Rome.
https://books.google.com.au/books?id...onians&f=false
What do you mean that there where no Bastanae in the balkans?

[Sile]

https://albanianstudies.weebly.com/dardanians.html
Even albanians sites are claiming links with the Dardanians..
..
But in my Opinion, the dardanii are the most northern genetic alignment we can see with the Albanians, .......albanians are genetically more greek than northern Balkan people

[LABERIA]

https://albanianstudies.weebly.com/dardanians.html
Even albanians sites are claiming links with the Dardanians..
..
But in my Opinion, the dardanii are the most northern genetic alignment we can see with the Albanians, .......albanians are genetically more greek than northern Balkan people

First, we don't know if the link provided by you is Albanian or not.
Second, this "My Albanian studies" sounds ridiculous, because all these so-called studies are just a collection of pages from Wikipedia, or better from the Anonymous of Wikipedia. Can you show me a study in the link provided by you that it's not just a copy paste from Wikipedia but it's a personal contribution of the person/s behind this blog?
And third, of course we Albanians claim links with Dardanians, Epirotes and other Illyrian tribes. Some toponyms, names, etc, are preserved by Albanians from antiquity in our days. For example, the name of the most famous Dardani King, Bardhyl or the name of Pirro of Epir, the name of the Illyrian Queen Teuta in the Albanian modern name Tefta, etc, continued to be used without interruption.

[hrvat22]

Wonomyro

Do you know that many of them had Croatian ancestry only 2-3 generations back? (Check their surnames...)

I2a2 'Dinaric-S' (I-CTS10228>S20602/YP196 probably S17250+ and PH908+) we recommend Z16983 or A5913 or Big Y test
Trento Giorgio Trento 1891-1946 Umago Croatia Italy

There are more Italians under Dinaric-S and under Dinaric-N.

[Sile]

First, we don't know if the link provided by you is Albanian or not.
Second, this "My Albanian studies" sounds ridiculous, because all these so-called studies are just a collection of pages from Wikipedia, or better from the Anonymous of Wikipedia. Can you show me a study in the link provided by you that it's not just a copy paste from Wikipedia but it's a personal contribution of the person/s behind this blog?
And third, of course we Albanians claim links with Dardanians, Epirotes and other Illyrian tribes. Some toponyms, names, etc, are preserved by Albanians from antiquity in our days. For example, the name of the most famous Dardani King, Bardhyl or the name of Pirro of Epir, the name of the Illyrian Queen Teuta in the Albanian modern name Tefta, etc, continued to be used without interruption.

You can deflect all you like about anything, but in the end we know
1 - The romans knew nothing of or wrote of any Albanians in modern Albania, Kosovo or Montenegro until 150AD.
2 - The Illyrians are noted in historical documents in the eastern alps as far back as 1400BC and not noted in Dalmatia before 600BC and not noted anywhere near Albania until 400BC
So , in the end the Albanians are assuming an ancient race to have some history for themselves. In the end you could not be in Albania in ancient times because that was only Greek-Corinthians or Epirote from before 700BC. Albanians cannot claim Illyrian because they did not arrive anywhere near Albania until the ancient macedonians noted them in 400BC . It leaves only 3 possibilities -
1 - a migration from somewhere after the Romans seized all of modern Albania and Macedonia in 138BC
2 - Albanians where only Dardanians and renamed themselves which is why the Albanian populace has always been small
3 - Albanians are a thracian tribe that split off from the thracian Moesian tribes after the celtic invasion of modern Serbia.

[hrvat22]

Sile

The Illyrians are noted in historical documents in the eastern alps as far back as 1400BC

Which haplotypes from there come to Balkans?

Albanians cannot claim Illyrian because they did not arrive anywhere near Albania until the ancient macedonians noted them in 400BC

Which haplotypes prove this?

a migration from somewhere after the Romans seized all of modern Albania and Macedonia in 138BC

Which haplotypes prove this?

Albanians are a thracian tribe that split off from the thracian Moesian tribes after the celtic invasion of modern Serbia.

Which haplotypes prove this?

In the end you could not be in Albania in ancient times because that was only Greek-Corinthians or Epirote from before 700BC.

Which haplotypes prove this?


You just love to talk, talk, talk.

[Sile]

Which haplotypes from there come to Balkans?
Which haplotypes prove this?
Which haplotypes prove this?
Which haplotypes prove this?
Which haplotypes prove this?
You just love to talk, talk, talk.

Compiling data samples from many papers I can conclude with my guess would be something like (see below ) ........the R1a at 15% might be a bit high but having 10% in pre-roman friuli ( early iron-age ) should be fine.
I-M253 25%
R-U106 25%
R-M417 15%
J2-M241 9%
E-M78 7%
G- 5%
T-M70 4%
L- 2%
I-S23 2%
J1-M267 2%



Aquileia, la Dalmazia e l'Illirico
Centro di antichità altoadriatiche, Casa Bertoli, Aquileia

Format Book Published
Udine : Tip. Chiandetti, 1985.
Language Italian

[hrvat22]

Sile

I am interested in concrete branches of concrete haplotypes that prove migration from your claim i.e specific persons with those haplogroups from public database.

When I prove arrival of Croats to Balkans then I attach genetics and historical records that prove that arrival (what we have now).

The Illyrians are noted in historical documents in the eastern alps as far back as 1400BC
Which haplotypes from there come to Balkans?

Eastern alps haplotypes and Balkans haplotypes. Migration from point A to point B

Do you understand?

[Wonomyro]

.......the R1a at 15% might be a bit high but having 10% in pre-roman friuli ( early iron-age ) should be fine.

Would you be so kind to give us a link to the paper. Or maybe just a table with haplogroup description. Thanks!

[Miroslav]

Evidence Zarubintsy culture is Bastarnatian is very important, and in previous pages there is a lot about Bastarnae, their origin and movements, I don't want repeat.

For example in #1117 is sublimated, who wants to read.

Bastarnae are strong candidate as carriers of I-CTS10228.

There's a lack of evidence, what you wrote about Bastarnae is far-fetched without any proper evidence and argumentation. There's almost anything to catch as meaningful. Considering Bastarnae as strong candidate is banging empty straw, while I-CTS10228 had TMRCA so many centuries ago before the formation of the Bastarnae that relating them i.e. using I-CTS10228 instead some other more downward and contemporary SNP branch is intentionally misleading. Trash.

[LABERIA]

You can read this post here.

[Angela]

Please remove all posts which do not concern the movements of ancient peoples, i.e. the subject of the original post. You may repost them on the Balkanian Disagreements thread. I will wait until 8Pm EST. At that point, I will go back at least a couple of pages and remove all such posts still remaining.

Once again, stay on topic.

Anyone who continues to post off-topic material will receive an infraction.

[Bachus]

In South Serbia the situation was a little bit different from what can you imagine.

On which situation you think?

[Wonomyro]

Please remove all posts which do not concern the movements of ancient peoples, i.e. the subject of the original post. You may repost them on the Balkanian Disagreements thread. I will wait until 8Pm EST. At that point, I will go back at least a couple of pages and remove all such posts still remaining.

Once again, stay on topic.

Anyone who continues to post off-topic material will receive an infraction.

I agree. Thank you.

However, some of these discussions are part of a multidisciplinary approach, where linguistics, and history may help us to identify ancient ethnicities that were the initial carriers of the haplogroup I2a-Din. I would remind that the I2a haplogroup has a peak in the area where at least two present day nations claim its ancestry. That is the reason why we have a hot debate. I hope that some posts on the linguistic and history which are based on objective sources may help reader to get the clearer picture on the origin of the I2a haplogrop in Dinarides. Limiting ourselves only to genetics we will never be able to answer the question from the thread caption.

Please, keep some of these posts that may seem off topic if you believe that they are useful.

[Dumidre]

Back to genetics please...
I2a-DIN and such...
"languages change but blood (genetics) stays"...

[Angela]

Well, I hope all of you are very happy now that you got infractions and one of you is banned AGAIN for accumulation of points. I specifically said no more off topic posts. A number of you went on to post about refugees, the start of WW1 and other material irrelevant to the topic and insulting one another to boot.

Are people in the Balkans incapable of following rules or just rules enforced by women? Well, no matter.

I'll now go back and remove all this distracting off topic material.

You have only yourselves to blame.

There is a thread specifically set up for you to beat your nationalistic chests on yet you refuse to use it. Why do you insist on ruining academic threads? Transfer all such discussions there.

[Angela]

You can deflect all you like about anything, but in the end we know
1 - The romans knew nothing of or wrote of any Albanians in modern Albania, Kosovo or Montenegro until 150AD.
2 - The Illyrians are noted in historical documents in the eastern alps as far back as 1400BC and not noted in Dalmatia before 600BC and not noted anywhere near Albania until 400BC
So , in the end the Albanians are assuming an ancient race to have some history for themselves. In the end you could not be in Albania in ancient times because that was only Greek-Corinthians or Epirote from before 700BC. Albanians cannot claim Illyrian because they did not arrive anywhere near Albania until the ancient macedonians noted them in 400BC . It leaves only 3 possibilities -
1 - a migration from somewhere after the Romans seized all of modern Albania and Macedonia in 138BC
2 - Albanians where only Dardanians and renamed themselves which is why the Albanian populace has always been small
3 - Albanians are a thracian tribe that split off from the thracian Moesian tribes after the celtic invasion of modern Serbia.

You make another such disparaging comment against any ethnic group whatsoever and you'll get another infraction. Are you ready for another ban for accumulation of points?

[Garrick]

It is unbelievable - how many times I said do not open the pandora's box, which itself is not related to the topic, but Serbs and Croats with Albanian friend, a very Balkan trio, cannot stop writing about they do not know i.e. think they do yet are recycling one and the same chauvinistic "evidence" and "reasoning" they were "educated" on the street and demagogues. I am calling the moderators to stop them before this becomes another ruined forum thread.

I agree with you, and if someone like bickering there is thread "Balkan disagreement".

Yes we don't agree about Dr Francesco Borri, and some other things but it is normal that people have opposite views in intellectual discussion.

I remember very useful discussion with you about main thing in this thread, I-CTS10228, there are four theories about this, if it is Thracian, German, Slavic or Illyrian origin.

We didn't agree but this discussion was very useful. If Bastarnae (and Scirii) were carriers of I-CTS10228 this would be German theory.

Although some scholars link Bastarnae with Celts, and for some scholars Bastarnae are only Bastarnae because they were big (numerous) people, however Bastarnae had German influence. It can be that Mesolitic survivors I-CTS10228 carriers mixed with Germans, I1 carriers, before migration toward Dacian and Sarmatian border areas.

I remember that you told me that more attention give Thracian theory. And you can see posts of member AlGreen #1122 who thinks I-CTS10228 is Thracian.

Really Thracian theory is very interesting. If tomorrow someone prove that Bastarnae theory is not plausible only possibility is that Thracian theory is plausible. No doubt that I-CTS10228 was in genetic fund of Thracians before Slavs. But it can be because of mixed Bastarnae with Thracians during long period.

[Wonomyro]

this is empty

[Wonomyro]

..........

[davef]

^^ take it outside buddy ;)
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...781#post523781

[Garrick]

Do you know that the whole present day Croatia was once a part of Roman Empire? There were numerous Roman colonies in Pannonia and Dalmatia. Also in Serbia (Moesia) and Bosnia (still Dalmatia). Where is now their admixture? Do you think that these Italians who lived in the corner of Istria have anything to do with the Roman colonists during the Roman period in Panonnia and Dalmatia. Let’s imagine that the Italian refugees are still there. What would that change in our conclusion? The Italian admixture on the Maciamo’s map would be few percent bigger for all Croatia, but in that case we would know that this is due to numerous Italian presence in Istria. In case that these few municipalities with Italian majority remained in Italy, Maciamo’s map of Croatia would look the same as now because these Italians would not affect Croatian statistics. Do you understand what you're talking about? The Italian admixture is not a number of Italian humans vs. number of Croatian humans in the 20th century. It is a percentage in every tested Croat and in every tested Italian in Croatia taken together. It takes centuries for that. People get married. Genes of ancient Romans would not all escape to Istria! Something would obviously remain in Croatian people who stayed in Croatia. Please compare the map of Roman Empire with the map of Italian admixture. You will notice that the almost whole territory of the former Empire is covered with Italian-like admixture, except on the Slavic countries across the Adriatic. Do you think it is only because Yugoslav partisans expelled (part of) Italians from Istria? What is about Serbia then? Where are the Italians from Serbia that we have such small percentage of the Italian admixture there? (Should I ask instead where are 500,000 Germans from Serbia now?) Do you believe that a higher percentage of Italian admixture in Spain exists because they expelled less Italians during WWII? Did you understand all that?

I could explain with a lot of data during centuries about Italians in Dalmatia, including islands, not only Italians in Istria, or speakers of some kind of Italo-Western languages during centuries. And yes Maciamo's picture would be different. But I think it is better that Italians or anything else explain, for many reasons, only my intention was reaction on the picture and nothing more.