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Thread: I2a-Din came to the Balkans and Dinaric Alps with the Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    War again? Croatia is commonly packed along with Balkans (geographically spite unperfectly) by Western Europeans because of its ancient appartenance to old Yougoslavia, without being attached too tightly to a specific vision of culture/race etc... and its Dalmatian part is very much in the Wester Balkans geographic area, I think.
    otherwise, Croatians on PCA's based on autosomes are almost everytime close to Hungarians, more Central Europe and less Southeastern Europe than Romanians, Bulgarians or Albanians, by instance, and it is not disputed, I believe. Their phenotypes as a whole evocate also more Central Europe than Southern Europe, this last term being very unprecise in itself concerning phenotypes.
    But I find a bit too sensitive the reactions of someones as if to be "Balkan" would be kind f insult. Everyone with a little bit of culture knows that the region shelters a lot of different people which share nevertheless common parts of ancestry and of history (including numerous wars where they were sometimes on the same side, sometimes in the opposite ones), what does not mean they can be "reduced' to a signle pop.
    So everyone can make some precisions without it would be obliged to turn into a verbal war.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    War again? Croatia is commonly packed along with Balkans (geographically spite unperfectly) by Western Europeans because of its ancient appartenance to old Yougoslavia, without being attached too tightly to a specific vision of culture/race etc... and its Dalmatian part is very much in the Wester Balkans geographic area, I think.
    otherwise, Croatians on PCA's based on autosomes are almost everytime close to Hungarians, more Central Europe and less Southeastern Europe than Romanians, Bulgarians or Albanians, by instance, and it is not disputed, I believe. Their phenotypes as a whole evocate also more Central Europe than Southern Europe, this last term being very unprecise in itself concerning phenotypes.
    But I find a bit too sensitive the reactions of someones as if to be "Balkan" would be kind f insult. Everyone with a little bit of culture knows that the region shelters a lot of different people which share nevertheless common parts of ancestry and of history (including numerous wars where they were sometimes on the same side, sometimes in the opposite ones), what does not mean they can be "reduced' to a signle pop.
    So everyone can make some precisions without it would be obliged to turn into a verbal war.
    Dalmatia lies completely in southeastern Europe. However ''western balkans'' is post-2000 geopolitical term for countries of ex-Yugoslavia + Albania, which still did not join euro-atlantic integrations. It has little historical value. Otherwise, there would exist ''northern'', ''eastern'' and ''southern'' Balkans as well, which of course does not.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I am a Croat and I don't feel offended when people in Switzerland, here where I live call Croatia a Balkan country. What does it mean at all? Geographically? Yes, Balkan starts somewhere in the North-West. So where is the border? There are a few definitions but let's say it's the river Sava. Myself, I'm from northern Croatia, so techically I'm not even from Balkan. But many of my fellow countrymen are from the other side, I certainly have some ancestry from there too. What is so bad about being from Balkan? Are you a better person if you're from central Europe and not from Balkan? In the historical and cultural sense, Croatia is a part of Balkan (as well as of central Europe), at least a good part of it. Being Catholic and not Orthodox or Muslim doesn't make the difference, religion isn't the criteria here. I would recommend you to embrace this fact, to live with it in peace. Don't show yourself better than it is, there's no need for it. And if you doubt that Croatia is a Balkan country, just look at it's government.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxCRO View Post
    Balkan is not a historically geographic term. Geograpically, Croatia is crossroads of central and southeastern Europe.However southestern Europe is not synonomous with balkans. Greece is best example for that. And even geographically cca. 45% of Croatia lies in southeastern Europe, the rest being central.Romania lies almost completely outside of southeastern Europe, however people usually refer to it as balkan country, because it was primarly geopolitical concept related with Ottoman occupation.Historically, Croatia became part of balkan geopolitically in 1918. However, so did Slovenia. I am not ignoring that part of history ofcourse, but since it was one unsucessful and painful episode we prefer to put emphasis on almost 1000 years before that. You must understand, our genetically related southern slavic neighbours have very different history, religion and culture than we do. Therefore, balkan identity is something very foreign to most of us.I have no idea what kind of Croats you met, but only Bosnian-Herzegovian Croats are balkan people, with balkan culture and history related with that part of the world.They are our link with that region. And not less Croat, nevertheless. Equally worthy, but simply very different as other balkan people are.I am absolutely anti-racist. Just don't want to be said what I am by foreigners with their prejudices and lack of knowledge. Croatian history and identity is quite complex topic.To say we are not genetically southern European people is not racism but simple fact. Europe is not split in north and south only, but there are many populations who fluctuate between the two, like Croats do, or like French do.

    And genetics doesn't relate with culture and regional belonging. Some of closest people to Croats genetically are Bosniak muslims, who are as foreign as they can be culturally, historically and politically from us. Hope I made quality point.
    Why is istria part of the balkans when it has part of the alps ......julian alps which slovenia has as well .................clearly the term balkans is based on national borders ( wrong system ) and not geography .
    some also have Romania as part of the balkans and other do not

    Clearly there are too many sensitive people who decide what is what based on if it will effect others feelings and not based on fact
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by don_joe View Post
    . And if you doubt that Croatia is a Balkan country, just look at it's government.
    This is final proof of your own ignorance, because by implications Croatian government is ''bad'' you imply it's connection with balkan, which seem to you be negative.While I do not identify with balkan identity, I wouldn't be so foolish to imply balkan means everything negative. Italy is quite famous for it's unstable governments, does it sudenly makes it balkan country ? Can you elaborate us what is balkan about Croatian culture and history ? And the geographical definition by sava river does not hold any value, because quite a lot of territory south of sava belongs to panonnian plain, same unit as teritories north of it. From pure geographical pow, transition from central to southeastern Europe begins with dinaric mountain range.

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    Quote Originally Posted by don_joe View Post
    What is so bad about being from Balkan?
    It is factually wrong, to start with. It is, however, your right to call yourself whatever you like, listen to music you like,...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    It is factually wrong, to start with. It is, however, your right to call yourself whatever you like, listen to music you like,...
    For them, being less affluent and more corrupted than let say Switzerland, makes it balkan country, ignoring the fact, if Albania or Bulgaria suddenly become most developed countries in Europe, they would still remain balkan countries, because their identity is such.

    Problem is this people who push balkan identity actually do not respect it like I do.
    I do not consider central europe to be any better than balkan is, but simply that region is what I'm familiar with.
    German or Czech criminal and rapist is still central european, and Albanian or Bosnian doctor or architect is still a balkan person.

    Balkans does not equal povetry and wars, actually there were more wars in western Europe compared to Balkans in last 1000 years.
    Balkan has spacific history and culture, which Croatia doesn't really belongs to, but not because it's ''better'' than it, but because it has simply very different cultural/historical development.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxCRO View Post
    This is final proof of your own ignorance, because by implications Croatian government is ''bad'' you imply it's connection with balkan, which seem to you be negative.


    Well noticed! He unintentionally made the point more convincing that we would do!

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    This is the only true and valid balkan litmus test:

    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    This is the only true and valid balkan litmus test:

    Ćevapčići is bosnian dish, you can find them native in Serbia and few other countries too. In Croatia this food is not part of our traditional cusine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    , I think. otherwise, Croatians on PCA's based on autosomes are almost everytime close to Hungarians, more Central Europe and less Southeastern Europe
    When we are already comparing Croatia to Hungary as “indisputably Central European”, then look at some interesting facts about the capitals:

    The Ottomans conquered Buda in 1526, as well in 1529, and finally occupied it in 1541.[79] The Turkish Rule lasted for more than 140 years.
    Zagreb, Croatian capital, never fell under the Turkish Rule...

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    Where did I write something negative about Balkan? That about the goverment was to emphasise that it has more similarities with other Balkan governments than with the most of other European ones. I don't need to go into further detail. Let me see, where do you have your definition of Balkan and Balkan culture and history? Maybe you could teach me something. Clear the difference for me please, why is Croatian cultural background different than that of the Balkans?

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    Quote Originally Posted by don_joe View Post
    Where did I write something negative about Balkan? That about the goverment was to emphasise that it has more similarities with other Balkan governments than with the most of other European ones.
    what are those similarities ? Croatia has quite decent government as of now, and moderate economic growth. I'm not their voter, but I don't think you as person living in diaspora has enough insight in it.What are the differences of ''other european governments'' compared to Croatian one, and to ''other balkan governments'' ? I didn't quite understand your point.
    I don't need to go into further detail. Let me see, where do you have your definition of Balkan and Balkan culture and history? Maybe you could teach me something. Clear the difference for me please, why is Croatian cultural background different than that of the Balkans?
    Yes, you do. Rules of debate put burden of proof on you, since you are one to claim croatia is historically and culturally part of balkan world. You cannot simply say something, and than request other side to prove why it is not so. But since I'm polite, I will add main difference between Croatia and ''balkans'' doesn't lie in Ottoman occupation, but quite preceeds it, when medieval Europe was split in western (Frankish) and eastern (Byzantine) realm, with completely different societal, political and philosophical development and idea of state. No need to say, Croatia followed Frankish one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by don_joe View Post
    Where did I write something negative about Balkan? That about the goverment was to emphasise that it has more similarities with other Balkan governments than with the most of other European ones.
    Could you pls. elaborate what you meant by similarities between governments?

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    If you two racists don't stop this provocative t-rolling, you're out of here. You destroy every thread you join and do your best to make this site a laughing stock or a duplicate of some racist, anthroforum. You also make Croatians look awful, and they don't deserve it, most of whom, and certainly the ones I've met and am honored to call friends, are wonderful people.

    One way or another it's going to stop.

    @Moesan, Don Joe,
    Thank you for interjecting some sanity into the discussion.


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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    High degree of corruption, nationalism, the state holding a major part of economy causing the constant growth of national debth and unemployment rate and people leaving the country to survive, etc. Oh, I have some insight, I have family there. So, the same like Serbia, Kosovo, Greece, Romania and other Balkan countries. Thank you for being polite but is the Frankish area of influence the official definition or your own?

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    Quote Originally Posted by don_joe View Post
    High degree of corruption, nationalism, the state holding a major part of economy causing the constant growth of national debth and unemployment rate and people leaving the country to survive, etc. Oh, I have some insight, I have family there. So, the same like Serbia, Kosovo, Greece, Romania and other Balkan countries. Thank you for being polite but is the Frankish area of influence the official definition or your own?
    We should not rely on impressions but to stick to the facts instead. In order to interjecting some sanity into the discussion, I am linking a map of countries rated by Social Progress Index, which is, I think, the most objective and relevant measure for this discussion:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/2017_Social_Progress_Index_map.svg

    More information here:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social...res_by_country

    The SPI measures the well-being of a society by observing social and environmental outcomes directly rather than the economic factors. The social and environmental factors include wellness (including health, shelter and sanitation), equality, inclusion, sustainability and personal freedom and safety

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxCRO View Post
    Ćevapčići is bosnian dish, you can find them native in Serbia and few other countries too. In Croatia this food is not part of our traditional cusine.
    Look at the map and the definition of peninsula https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balk...nsula_line.jpg


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    If you two racists don't stop this provocative t-rolling, you're out of here. You destroy every thread you join and do your best to make this site a laughing stock or a duplicate of some racist, anthroforum. You also make Croatians look awful, and they don't deserve it, most of whom, and certainly the ones I've met and am honored to call friends, are wonderful people.

    One way or another it's going to stop.

    @Moesan, Don Joe,
    Thank you for interjecting some sanity into the discussion.
    @Angela, would you stop calling us racist , or I will be forced to report you to another moderator ? Before you ban us who you disagree with, could you please show any evidence of racist and hateful posts written by me or another Croat member ? Thank you.

    I could write you make Italians look awful, for simple disagreeing with you, but that would be quite primitive, wouldn't it ?

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    ^^International norms don't matter, geography doesn't matter, history doesn't matter, nothing matters to these two jokers except the fact that Croatians have a little less West Asian and Mediterranean, and a little more steppe, which they don't realize is itself 40% Iran CHG like/CHG like, than the rest of you.

    They obviously don't want to be associated in any way with the rest of you because they're "superior" on account of these differences. If it wasn't so humorous in a black humor sort of way, it would be pathetic.

    No amount of logic or reasoning will work with people like this. They're a hopeless case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by don_joe View Post
    High degree of corruption, nationalism, the state holding a major part of economy causing the constant growth of national debth and unemployment rate and people leaving the country to survive, etc. Oh, I have some insight, I have family there. So, the same like Serbia, Kosovo, Greece, Romania and other Balkan countries. Thank you for being polite but is the Frankish area of influence the official definition or your own?
    That's quite terrible argumentation. High degree of corruption is problem of all post-socialist countries, from Russia to Albania, and absolutely not related with being balkan or not.
    As for nationalism, are Hungary, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, and lately Austria part of balkan too ? Because their governments are several degrees more nationalist than current croatian is (please check their offical stance towards non-European immigration and compare it with Croatian). If you aren't aware, current centre-right government of Croatia formed coalition with left-liberals, who are complete opposite of nationalist.

    Leaving the country to survive ? Oh, I see, than million of Spaniards, southern Italians and Poles are balkanites too, aren't they ? Social problems you are talking about have no relation with cultral and historical belonging to balkans, which you again reduce to povertry and backwardness.

    Quite prejudiced, I'd say.

    For your last sentence, have you learned history ? For you understand fundamental differences between Byzantine and Frankish state concents ? Are you aware, Croats grew from former Frankish vassals to their indipendent Kingdom ? Do you understand, our state and political traditions differ radicaly from, Serbian or Bulgarian ones ?

    I need to know do you posses basic historical knowldge before continuing debate with you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxCRO View Post
    @Angela, would you stop calling us racist , or I will be forced to report you to another moderator ? Before you ban us who you disagree with, could you please show any evidence of racist and hateful posts written by me or another Croat member ? Thank you.

    I could write you make Italians look awful, for simple disagreeing with you, but that would be quite primitive, wouldn't it ?
    Every time you post something trying to disassociate yourself and your countrymen from the rest of the Balkans, mainly based on the fact that you have a little less West Asian and Mediterranean than they do, you are revealing your ultra-nationalism and racism.

    These are the kind of attitudes which led to the Balkan Wars and the atrocities that were committed.

    I have never given a single infraction to someone for disagreement over the facts. I give them for racism, t-rolling, dishonestly, denigration of other ethnic groups, violations of forum rules, and violations of standards of decent, civilized human contact.

    When I see posts like that, which bring this site into disrepute, the person responsible gets an infraction. It's as simple as that.

    I'm sorry if you can't understand that.

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    Though Angela gave you the axe (or another mod) here's evidence in case you come back or choose to lurk, maxcro:
    "I will ask you to refrain using Croatia in relation with ''balkans'' because I find it offensive and degratory. We don't identify with ''balkans'', ''balkan nations'' and so on, perhaps the Italians or other foreigners do, but now when you know it's not so well accepted among mainstream Croatian society I politely ask you to change your approach."

    You come off as saying that it's offensive to associate Croatians with Albanians, Romanians, Bulgarians, Serbians etc as if you're having any closeness with them genetic or culturally is something undesirable.
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

  24. #1374
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    ^^He didn't come off as saying that: he was saying that. Alex Fritz apparently agrees with him and his racist world view.

    I always knew he was a phony and probably from the Balkans. Another fake part Italian. Now he can go back to moribund anthrogenica and post his incomprehensible, loaded with irrelevant facts content, and whine about me and this site like the little baby he is...If I weren't a lady there are other words I could have used.

    Maybe he can use the extra time to ask his mother where the hell his "Italian" ancestors came from, and whether his father's family came from East Germany. :) These kinds of people would last a flat minute, no more, on any operation. How incredibly lame.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    ^^He didn't come off as saying that: he was saying that. Alex Fritz apparently agrees with him and his racist world view.

    I always knew he was a phony and probably from the Balkans. Another fake part Italian. Now he can go back to moribund anthrogenica and post his incomprehensible, loaded with irrelevant facts content, and whine about me and this site like the little baby he is...If I weren't a lady there are other words I could have used.

    Maybe he can use the extra time to ask his mother where the hell his "Italian" ancestors came from, and whether his father's family came from East Germany. :) These kinds of people would last a flat minute, no more, on any operation. How incredibly lame.
    I love how you get back at these t-rolls, it's always entertaining to read your posts describing them or exploiting their bad arguments; they're real witty and not something you'd want to be on the receiving end of :), I swear you can make a big grown man feel minuscule with your words when he asks for it.

    Anthrogenica is badly infected but it's not all bad. Yes there's still sikeliot and his infinitely ongoing Sicilian /Southern Italian obsession (is he ever going to STOP??) , horrible calculators and other forms of discrimination that's ignored by the lazy moderators but Kurd still posts there as well as some of the better members here.

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