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Thread: I2a-Din came to the Balkans and Dinaric Alps with the Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians

  1. #1376
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxCRO View Post
    That's quite terrible argumentation. High degree of corruption is problem of all post-socialist countries, from Russia to Albania, and absolutely not related with being balkan or not.
    As for nationalism, are Hungary, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, and lately Austria part of balkan too ? Because their governments are several degrees more nationalist than current croatian is (please check their offical stance towards non-European immigration and compare it with Croatian). If you aren't aware, current centre-right government of Croatia formed coalition with left-liberals, who are complete opposite of nationalist.

    Leaving the country to survive ? Oh, I see, than million of Spaniards, southern Italians and Poles are balkanites too, aren't they ? Social problems you are talking about have no relation with cultral and historical belonging to balkans, which you again reduce to povertry and backwardness.

    Quite prejudiced, I'd say.

    For your last sentence, have you learned history ? For you understand fundamental differences between Byzantine and Frankish state concents ? Are you aware, Croats grew from former Frankish vassals to their indipendent Kingdom ? Do you understand, our state and political traditions differ radicaly from, Serbian or Bulgarian ones ?

    I need to know do you posses basic historical knowldge before continuing debate with you.
    Even if I prove to you that I indeed have some basic historical knowledge, you would twist it again to try to prove your point, involving everybody from Attila the Hun to Merovingian dynasty. The manner how you do it is far from polite. I'm not going to insult. One should only read your posts and compare that what you assert to the facts which are available in internet. Just look at the map of Balkan Peninsula. Hello...what Franks and their vassals are you talking about?

    Here I have something for you:

    Corruption perceptions index

    http://emerging-europe.com/voices/vo...ing-economies/

    European competitiveness index

    http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/E...ompetitiveness

    Did you find Croatia? Where did you start your search, on the top or on the bottom? What success are you talking about? Just click through a few informative pages before you come here and spread fake news and alternative history of civilisations.

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    Balkan is a term with plenty of meanings.

    Is Croatia a Balkan country/nation?


    Historically? No.

    Culturally? No. (with few exceptions)

    Confessionally? No.

    Politically? No.

    Linguistically? No.

    Self-declaratively? No.

    Geographically? Only partly, if we accept the strict geographical definition, which is dubious.

    And the most relevant for this thread - genetically?




    So, Croatia is not part of the Balkans, I get it. Let's move on...
    The thread is about how I2-Din was brought to the Balkans...

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    Honestly even though I do not like the idea but South Slavs look very different from the northern ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Honestly even though I do not like the idea but South Slavs look very different from the northern ones.
    We are mixed with Albanians and Vlachs and that's why we are different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by don_joe View Post
    Where did I write something negative about Balkan? That about the goverment was to emphasise that it has more similarities with other Balkan governments than with the most of other European ones. I don't need to go into further detail. Let me see, where do you have your definition of Balkan and Balkan culture and history? Maybe you could teach me something. Clear the difference for me please, why is Croatian cultural background different than that of the Balkans?
    I can teach you something. There is an older name for Balkan and that is Helm. Which name foreigners use for it isn't of too much importance to us. We are used to nice foreign words like sciavo, slave, serf, and such.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blood of Prosara View Post
    I can teach you something. There is an older name for Balkan and that is Helm. Which name foreigners use for it isn't of too much importance to us. We are used to nice foreign words like sciavo, slave, serf, and such.
    Sorry, I don't understand you. Slav is an indigenous slavic word. It comes from "sloviti" or to talk, so did the Slavs call themselves. It's the opposite of "Nijemci", which means mute, like he or she doesn't speak our language and which is even today a slavic word for Germans. Helm is a btw a german word for a helmet. I've never heard it being used for the Balkans. But maybe you can teach me.

    Sent from my SM-G965F using Eupedia Forum mobile app

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cip View Post
    Yes. My Hg is G2a - Z29424 negativ to all subgroups TMRCA 3200 years - paleo-balkanic origin. (...)
    We are on the same path. I am G2a - P303 but very likely L13. I do not know beyond that. My grandparents are from the south. Is it not believed that the Cucutenians had a strong G2 component besides I2? It would not be surprising that the Dacians had also a significant proportion of G2a. Bigger that it is here today.

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    I see that too much discussions focus on the spread of haplogroups, but this represent very little of the human genome. I think this haplogroups are losing on the road very quickly and making room for others who thrive on the same genetic background.
    Probably the most important are the autosomal variations?

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    How did an I2a3* alpine (L233-) man end up in the Pisa region of Tuscany, any suggestions or info on this branch would be much appreciated. Which migrations could have brought it and where is it most frequent?
    I belong to I2a3* Alpine, what is his family name, is he of arberesh (medieval albanian) origin?

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    delete............................................ .......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have given more thought about the origin of I2a-Din (L621>L147.2) and came to the following conclusion.

    During the Mesolithic the I2a1 (P37.2) hunter-gatherers must have occupied a vast part of western, central and eastern Europe. Central and western European I2a1 lineages only survive at low frequencies in three newly identified subclades: L1286, L1294 and L880. The south-western M26 branch was absorbed by Neolithic farmers of the Cardium Pottery culture, whose descendants are found mostly in modern Sardinians and Basques.

    The eastern branch, I2a1b (M423) were hunter-gatherers from the Carpathian region and/or from further north (Poland, Belarus, western Ukraine). Those in the Carpathian basin would have mixed with Middle Eastern Neolithic farmers and founded the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture (4800-3000 BCE). The whole region from Romania to Poland would then have been absorbed by the Proto-Indo-European Corded Ware culture (2900-2400 BCE).

    After being Indo-Europeanized, I2a-L621 would have become the dominant paternal lineage among southern Slavs, while R1a remained dominant among northern Slavs.

    The presence of I2a-L621 in Romania and Bulgaria could be attributed to the migration of the ancient Dacians and Thracians, who emerged as a mixture of of indigenous peoples (I2a1b) and Indo-Europeans (R1a) sometime between 3000 and 1500 BCE.

    The Illyrians, an IE tribe who conquered the territory of former Yugoslavia circa 1200-1000 BCE, might have been an offshoot from the Dacians or the Thracians, or a closely related tribe from the Carpathian basin.

    I used to think that I2a1b in the Dinaric Alps were the remnants of the original hunter-gatherers and that only the I2a1b outside the Dinaric Alps and Balkans were integrated to the Corded Ware culture and became Proto-Slavs, then Slavs. However there is so little difference between the Dinaric and other Eastern European I2a1b, all belonging to the same deep subclade (L621>CTS4002>...>L147.2) that they must all descend from a fairly recent ancestor and have expanded no earlier than 3000 to 1500 BCE.
    And what are your toughts now, 7 years later, and 2 years later of the Eupedia I2 site upload?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gidai View Post
    I see that too much discussions focus on the spread of haplogroups, but this represent very little of the human genome. I think this haplogroups are losing on the road very quickly and making room for others who thrive on the same genetic background.
    Probably the most important are the autosomal variations?
    I don't agree.
    Uniparental markers, and even more the males ones (Y haplogroups at first place) are of worth, these last ones because a lot of our old societies have been patriarcal and patrilocal during a long enough time: they don't illustrate our total genetic composition but tell a lot about some important actors of our history, good or bad ones. It depends on what you want to know...

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    So... Are the I2-Din guys are Illyrian descendants, or Bastarnae, or Thracian...?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Szigmund View Post
    So... Are the I2-Din guys are Illyrian descendants, or Bastarnae, or Thracian...?

    I2a1-CTS10228 (Dinarid) arrived in Balkans with 7th century Slavic migrations across the Carpathian mountains. However their further origin is from East Europe being native hunter-gatherers there since Paleolitik.
    They were ultimately slavicised around Ukraine/Poland/BelaRus by their conquerors R1a - original Slavic language carriers regarding East Europe.

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  16. #1391
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    The TMRCA 1850 ybp of S17250 (according to https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/ ) is very interesting, because the first sources of the Slavs are from 6th century, so app. 350 years later (for sure it's not means that Slavs didn't existed before 500 AD). I am really curious who were the I-S17250 people (and maybe I-Y3120 and I-CTS10228) people before the R1a Slav migration and conquer.
    Which is the most up-to-date map of the wandering of I2 people, or particularly I-S17250?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Szigmund View Post
    The TMRCA 1850 ybp of S17250 (according to https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/ ) is very interesting, because the first sources of the Slavs are from 6th century, so app. 350 years later (for sure it's not means that Slavs didn't existed before 500 AD). I am really curious who were the I-S17250 people (and maybe I-Y3120 and I-CTS10228) people before the R1a Slav migration and conquer.
    Which is the most up-to-date map of the wandering of I2 people, or particularly I-S17250?
    Per FTDNA a new major CTS10228 subbranch was found: FT80992. The two samples in this subbranch are from Hungary and Germany. It looks like CTS10228 came from western locations prior to arriving in east Europe, as basal branches have been found in two males, of French and German descent. An “ancient” Y3120 sample from an estimated 1,000 or so years ago was posted in YFull, from Ukraine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    Dinarid? What do you mean?

    Maybe i should have said Dinaric. In either case its geographical term, i guess they nicknamed I2a-CTS10228 "Dinaric" because of its high presence around Dinaric Alps reaching percentages as high as 70 % among Catholics from Bosnia and Hercegovina. But also in similar high but somewhat lower percentages can be found among Muslims in Bosnia.

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