I2a-Din came to the Balkans and Dinaric Alps with the Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians

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I misspoke R1B: Italy and Western Europe...

Region/HaplogroupI1 I2b1 I2*+I2b2 I2a R1a R1b G J2 J* + J1 E1b1b T L Q Total
Abruzzo (3) (2) (0) (1) 5 38 9 22 6 11 6 3 0 107
3% 2% 0% 1% 4.5% 35.5% 8.5% 21% 5.5% 10.5% 5.5% 3% 0%
Apulia (10) (4) (1) (15) 13 117 52 94 13 82 6 1 0 426
2.5% 1% 0% 3.5% 3% 27.5% 12% 22% 3% 19% 1.5% 0% 0%
Basilicata (2) (1) (0) (7) 3 29 10 17 2 23 (6) 0 0 104
2% 1% 0% 6.5% 3% 28% 9.5% 16.5% 2% 22% 6% 0% 0%
Calabria (4) (1) (0) (2) 5 48 18 54 9 30 (4) (3) 2 182
2% 0.5% 0% 1% 2.5% 26.5% 10% 29.5% 5% 16.5% 2% 1.5% 1%
Campania (6) (2) (1) (9) 6 62 24 38 13 34 8 0 0 214
3% 1% 0.5% 4% 3% 29% 11% 18% 6% 16% 4% 0% 0%
Emilia-Romagna 9 0 0 1 2 97 17 28 3 31 2 0 0 192
5% 0% 0% 0.5% 1% 50.5% 9% 14.5% 1.5% 16% 1% 0% 0%
Friuli-Venezia Giulia 10 1 6 19 2 5 0 3 0 1 0 47
21.5% 2% 13% 40.5% 4% 10.5% 0% 6.5% 0% 2% 0%
Latium (33) (6) (6) (4) 8 112 43 72 7 63 18 0 7 386
8.5% 1.5% 1.5% 1% 2% 29% 11% 18.5% 2% 16.5% 4.5% 0% 2%
Liguria 5 0 2 3 1 60 12 12 4 22 2 1 0 125
4% 0% 1.5% 2.5% 1% 48% 9.5% 9.5% 3% 17.5% 1.5% 1% 0%
Lombardy 2 1 3 1 3 47 8 5 0 8 1 0 0 80
2.5% 1% 4% 1% 4% 59% 10% 6% 0% 10% 1% 0% 0%
Marches (5) (5) (0) (7) 8 83 19 60 16 32 6 1 0 245
2% 2% 0% 3% 3% 34% 8% 24.5% 6.5% 13% 2.5% 0.5% 0%
Molise 4 1 1 1 0 7 7 3 1 4 0 0 0 29
14% 3.5% 3.5% 3.5% 0% 24% 24% 10.5% 3.5% 14% 0% 0% 0%
Piedmont 1 0 2 0 1 16 3 2 1 2 1 0 0 30
3.5% 0% 7% 0% 3.5% 53.5% 10% 6.5% 3.5% 6.5% 3.5% 0% 0%
Sardinia (4) (24) (20) 864 28 423 274 202 89 218 (40) (7) (3) 2293
0% 1% 1% 37.5% 1% 18.5% 12% 9% 4% 9.5% 1.5% 0.5% 0%
Sicily (22) (5) (1) (19) 29 169 54 149 33 133 25 1 7 653
3.5% 1% 0% 3% 4.5% 26% 8.5% 23% 3.5% 20.5% 4% 0% 1%
Tuscany (14) (6) (4) 5 15 200 34 44 7 35 8 2 0 380
4% 1.5% 1% 1.5% 4% 52.5% 9% 11.5% 2% 9% 2% 0.5% 0%
Trentino-South Tyrol (99) 29 267 (16) (41) (0) 34 18 14 - 523
21% 5.5% 47.5% 3% 8% 0% 6.5% 3.5% 2.5% -
Umbria 1 0 1 0 0 14 6 9 2 3 0 0 0 37
2.5% 0% 2.5% 0% 0% 38% 16% 24.5% 5.5% 8% 0% 0% 0%
Veneto 8 0 1 0 2 38 5 15 1 12 2 6 0 92
8.5% 0% 1% 0% 2% 41.5% 5.5% 16.5% 1% 13% 2% 6.5% 0%
 
I tried to copy and paste an link about R1B posted in this website but I don't think it will go through... It was about Italy broken down on regions and, interestingly enough R1B was the highest percentage ( that's why I placed Italy as R1B in relation with the Romanian DNA)... I should have said Italy and Western Europe...
 
It was a rhetorical question regarding the high percentage I2a-din in Dalmatia.
 
According to the written evidence, the whole of Dalmatia was said to have been overrun by the Slavs about 641/2.
https://books.google.com/books?id=J...AA#v=onepage&q=slavs overrun dalmatia&f=false

Then who were these Slavs that overran Dalmatia?

http://researchomnia.blogspot.com.au/2016/07/vlachs-in-venetian-dalmatia.html

some scholars say they where early slavs who settled in dalmatia and others who use genetics state that dalmatia was an illyrian-roman mix , before venetians or slavs arrived.

see the link ,it is interesting
 
http://www.archeo.uw.edu.pl/swarch/S...B-s205-212.pdf

Citations about Slavs migrating into the Balkans, describing their height:

1. Procopius of Caesarea:

- "(...) Nay further, they [Slavs] don't differ at all from one another in appearance. For they are all exceptionally tall and stalwart men, while their bodies and hair are neither very fair or very blonde, nor indeed do they incline entirely to the dark type, but they are slightly ruddy in color. (...)"

- "(...) Valerian chose one of the Slavs who are men of mighty stature. (...)"

2. Theophilact Simokatta

"(...) The Emperor was with great curiosity listening to stories about this tribe [Slavs], he has welcomed these newcomers from the land of barbarians, and after being amazed by their height and mighty stature, he sent these men to Heraclea. (...)"

3. Theophanes the Confessor:

"(...) The Emperor was admiring their [Slavic] beauty and their stalwart stature. (...)"

4. Caesarius of Nazianzus:

He described Slavs as "numerous and tall", if I'm not mistaken (but I don't have exact quotation at hand).
 
I don't understand the point of the title as the ethnogenesis of the mentioned ethnic groups happened in the Balkans. Most of the Balkan specific I subclades seem to be there from the Mesolithic period so it's a native Balkan genetic marker and only specific to some Serbians, Northern Albanians, Croatians the most.
 
Y-I2a1b-Din has is close ancestors in E-N-E Europe, not in the Balkans, if I don't mistake, spite their more remote ancestors were everywhere in Europe but for the most at low densities. The debate is about its ties with Proto-Slavs or with Thracians-Dacians or Illyrians.
My guess is it was present in N-Carpathians since a long time and knew a first "boom" as well with some Slavic tribes as with Thracians or Dacians, why not with tribes akin to Illyrians (all of them speaking satem languages, at first sight) - an other founder effect encreased recently their % in Western Balkans, as the S-Slavs colonized these lands, until Dalmatia. I wonder if their input did not help to differentiate Slavs from Balts in their genesis? Maciamo says this haplo could have been dominant among CTC (Tripolye, before Slavs rising); the Y-haplos we have todate in CTC is Y-G2a, but a handful Y-haplos can't be taken as absolute proof. Perhaps the NW parts of CTC were more I2a1 based or the I2a1 tribes had an independant culture influenced by CTC: here precise archeology is needed. But this discussion, if maybe hopeless, is not without basis.
 
Who are these mysterious people?

Mysterious people are Mesolithic survivors: I-CTS10228 carriers.

We can see now new data, what is written is confirmed.

TMRCA for Alsace carrier is 3800 years!

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/

It corresponds our knowledge that movement of I-CTS10228 carriers was from West toward East not in opposite direction.

It is clear that I-CTS10228 is not Slavic. Therefore construction of the whole haplogroup as "I2a-Slav" is stupid.

And I-CTS10228 came to the Balkans much before Slavs.

I-A2512 found in Greece, TMRCA 2200 years, nothing to do with Slavs.

Bastarnae is the best candidate for these Mesolithic survivors. And Bastarnae first time arrived to the Balkans, deep in the Thracian territory, 179 BC, 30,000 people. Later Bastarnae settled Balkans in much bigger numbers.
 
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Mysterious people are Mesolithic survivors: I-CTS10228 carriers.

We can see now new data, what is written is confirmed.

TMRCA for Alsace carrier is 3800 years!

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/

It corresponds our knowledge that movement of I-CTS10228 carriers was from West toward East not in opposite direction.

It is clear that I-CTS10228 is not Slavic. Therefore construction of the whole haplogroup as "I2a-Slav" is stupid.

And I-CTS10228 came to the Balkans much before Slavs.

I-A2512 found in Greece, TMRCA 2200 years, nothing to do with Slavs.

Bastarnae is the best candidate for these Mesolithic survivors. And Bastarnae first time arrived to the Balkans, deep in the Thracian territory, 179 BC, 30,000 people. Later Bastarnae settled Balkans in much bigger numbers.

Maybe or maybe not. There is no factual confirmation as of yet for your speculations as no ancient I-CTS10228 has yet been found in the Balkans. No one knows when it arrived. The date of its TMRCA is also not conclusive as it could have a TMRCA of 2200 years and still have arrived in the Balkans with Slavic speakers.

I realize you desperately want this to be true, Garrick, and that's fine, but newbies shouldn't be misled into thinking that there is any proof as of yet.
 
Maybe or maybe not. There is no factual confirmation as of yet for your speculations as no ancient I-CTS10228 has yet been found in the Balkans. No one knows when it arrived. The date of its TMRCA is also not conclusive as it could have a TMRCA of 2200 years and still have arrived in the Balkans with Slavic speakers.

I realize you desperately want this to be true, Garrick, and that's fine, but newbies shouldn't be misled into thinking that there is any proof as of yet.

Off topic, but I'm so glad that you're back!
 
Before the Slavic migration (570 AD-7th century) there have been 3 centuries of other "Barbarian
Invasions".
Reposted here:
The other thread is not getting attention.
From 250 AD on ,several waves of different people migrated West and South:
Goths (Visigoths,Ostrogoths, Vandals),Avars,Huns,Eruli,Kutriguri,Alamans etc etc etc.

The effects of invasions,destructions of cities and towns,killings and slavery were tremendous.
Northern Balkans are described by Byzantine chronographers as a deserted land.
 
Maybe or maybe not. There is no factual confirmation as of yet for your speculations as no ancient I-CTS10228 has yet been found in the Balkans. No one knows when it arrived. The date of its TMRCA is also not conclusive as it could have a TMRCA of 2200 years and still have arrived in the Balkans with Slavic speakers.

I realize you desperately want this to be true, Garrick, and that's fine, but newbies shouldn't be misled into thinking that there is any proof as of yet.

Yes, Angela you're right, for all newbies: it is theory.

But theory which has strong foundations and new findings in archeology, history, genetics are good correspond.

In short:

One of strong points are findings and proofs of Ukrainian scientists:

Zarubintsy culture is Bastarnaian dominantly.

In this way thesis of Soviet scientists that Zarubintsy culture was Slavic is rejected.

But Zarubintsy culture is predecessor of Kiev culture which was Slavic. It means Bastarnae had one of main roles in complex Slavic ethnogenesis, they became part of Slavic population.

We know movement Bastarnae people from Vistula area and surrounding to Dacian and Sarmatian borders, Bastarnae mixed with Sarmatians and Dacians.

We know that Bastarnae entered in the Romania and Balkans more times in big numbers, and mixed with local Dacian/Thracian population.

From histrorical sources we know that Bastrnae were very numerous that some authors highlight they are not tribe but people (modern term nation!).

Origin of Bastarnae is mysterious.

For most scientists they were Germans, some scientists think they were Celts, and there are more opinions.

What we know yet, they probably were nomads.

Considering the time and areas of their appearance, their movements, timely and territorial, Bastarnae are right candidate that they were dominantly I-CTS10228 carriers.

I-CTS10228 carriers were Old European Mesolitic survivors, according new findings I-CTS10228 is formed 5300 ago, and TMRCA is 3800 years.

I-CTS10228* is man from Alsace (Bas-Rhin), France.

We know that I-M423, ancestor of I-CTS10228, is found is Loschbour, Louxembourg, 8000 years old man from Mesolithic.

We can assume where in Europe Mesolitic survivors could lived and moved, probably Western/Central Europe, and beyond.

Central Europe today according the World Factbook is made up of the following countries: Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Slovenia, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary and Poland.

They could have contact with proto-Celts and Celts, and Illyrians etc.

Germanic tribes had arrived from North.

When Bastarnae formed dominantly from Mesolithic survivor population I-CTS10228 carriers, they could have some Celtic elements, even Illyrian.

But probably with flow of time more German (I1), therefore it can be possible that Bastarnae mostly were mix I-CTS10228 (dominantly) and any I1 in any ratio.

What is interesting there are opinions among scientists that their name is from the word bastard.

Maybe they could look to other populations as unknown.

They probably adopted German language.

I-CTS10228 carriers could be in other tribes too (as Sciiri for example) but probably in much less numbers.

In areas where and time when they lived Mesolithic survivors didn't have contact with R1a clades who are dominant in Slavic population. How Bastarnae moved to the East they could have contact.

In 200 BC Bastarnae inhabited the region between Carpatian mountains, and to the north till river Dnieper and to the south borders of Dacia.

Balkans: I-CTS10228 since 179 BC till Slavic arriving 6th century

* Bastarnae first enterd in Balkans, area in todays Macedonia 179 BC.

* Bastarnae settled Balkans brought from the Balkan rulers (not as invaders!), some sources speak about process of "ethnic engineering" where imperial rulers did massive deportation/settling of ethnic groups as part of military/political plan.

* Bastarnae mixed with Thracians/Dacians (today's Romania, Moldavia, and Balkan countries Serbia, Bulgaria, Macedonia etc.)

* One Western source claims that substantial part of Balkan population till 5 century AD was mixed Tracian/Bastarnae!

* Plus, we can have in mind with the growth power of Goths Bastarnae became their allies, and they participated in Gothic invasions in the Balkans. It means, in Gothic invasions, I-CTS10228 arrived in the Balkans too.

Ancient Y-DNA samples in Central Europe and samples in the Romania/Balkans 200 BC-570 AD will confirm or disprove these assumptions.

An habit can be complicating because Bastarnae practiced burning process till 900 degrees Celsius.

But we can suppose scientists can find appropriate samples.

Story about Bastarnae is fascinating it is story about struggle for survival, in one period of history I-CTS10228 carriers barely survived but after that they spread in many directions.

First Homo sapiens in Europe during 45,000 to 28,000 years ago, belonged CT, C1a, C1b, F and I. I survived, developed in I1 and I2 and I-CTS10228 carriers are today more numerous I2 carriers in Europe.
 
Garrick, are you Slav? Yes? Do you have Slavic haplogroup? Yes? Is there anything else that you don't understand?
 

Illyrian homeland from late bronze-age to early iron-age
The Nori are recorded as the oldest at around 1300BC
red = Illyrians and tribe names mentioned by Historians
Purple = Venetic area
Green = Rhaetic area
Blue = Gallic-Celts
..
The Delmatae moved from southern Austria to the Adriatic around the times of 500BC to 600BC, they are the Dalmatians
 
Mysterious people are Mesolithic survivors: I-CTS10228 carriers.

We can see now new data, what is written is confirmed.

TMRCA for Alsace carrier is 3800 years!

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/

It corresponds our knowledge that movement of I-CTS10228 carriers was from West toward East not in opposite direction.

It is clear that I-CTS10228 is not Slavic. Therefore construction of the whole haplogroup as "I2a-Slav" is stupid.

And I-CTS10228 came to the Balkans much before Slavs.

I-A2512 found in Greece, TMRCA 2200 years, nothing to do with Slavs.

Bastarnae is the best candidate for these Mesolithic survivors. And Bastarnae first time arrived to the Balkans, deep in the Thracian territory, 179 BC, 30,000 people. Later Bastarnae settled Balkans in much bigger numbers.

Y-I2a1b as other I2 is old in Europe, allover Europe or almost, since before the Neolithic, everybody knows that. We cannot be sure of the precise place of birth (development is more interesting) of the first bearers of I-CTS10228. We know (it isn't so old) Y-I2a2 was rather the denser in Central Balkans but also in some late farmers groups of N-E Hungary and even S-Ukraina and Poland. But the hilly and mountainous regions of the Carpathians (S-Poland/Slovakia/N-Romania/NW-Ukraina could have sheltered among others the ancestors of -CTS10228, in small numbers at first. Possible partial acculturation with CTC could have launched a demographic boom, later. I already wrote this. I have the impression later contacts with Y-R1a Balto-Slavic pops, themselves then sedenting could have produced a numerous mix of people, disrupting the Balto-Slavic group to create by evolution the defined Slavic group. Of course the mix was not level by force concerning proportions of DNA. At thsi stage, if true, we can say by simplification I-CTS... is a "slavic" marker, but by abuse; it was only one of the eof synthesis, and surely not all its bearers are in this case. This doesn't exclude other pops, geographically close, were rather Y-I-CTS... with few of other Y-haplos and with other languages. What name(s) they had, I don't know! BTW Your Bastarnae seem having stayed rather in EASTERN Balkans and Carpathian Bassin, not in W-Balkans. We KNOW Slavic tribes came very later to W-Balkans and that they brought R1a and I-CTS... is almost without doubt; but I don't exclude they picked other ethnies even richest than them in I-CTS on the road, or pushed them before them... We lack ancient DNA of W-Balkans, and over a long span of time, to judge.
But I have not the pretention to name these other tribes or ethnies in detail nor to affirm there had been before them numerous I-CTS... in DInaric ALps as long as I 'll not have ancient DNA to prove it.
 
Illyrian homeland from late bronze-age to early iron-age...

What you wrote is the old and debunked theory about the Lusatian origin of the Illyrians, actually, you wrote some mambo jambo original research. Since the 1960s is supported the so-called "autochthonous" model.
 

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