I2a-Din came to the Balkans and Dinaric Alps with the Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians

Genetics can verify, confirm historical, archaeological evidence and, corroborated with attested cultures, can trace the movement of populations over time.
That's why any sort of assumptions that lack scientific evidence is pure nationalistic nonsense.
As for the predominant I2a in Balkans and around the Carpathian, cannot be anything but Thracian - Getae - Dacian - Illyrian.
All areas of I2 spread were inhabited by Thracians and is also known that Illyrians are the mix of Hallstatt culture with the expending Thracian / Cimmerian, advancing on Danube, over areas of Austria today.
Not to mention that most predominantly I2a areas in Ukraine, Moldova, Romania were inhabited for hundreds of years by Thracians - Getae - Dacian tribes.
Tyragetae on Dnister - NW of Black Sea, Dacian Carpi attested to move from 4th BC from between Dniper-Dnister to Moldova and E Romania, then relocated to areas of SW Ukraine and Slovakia, NE Pannonia, then relocated around Pecs - Hungary today by 4th AD; Costoboci in S-SW Ukraine, Buri, Ratacenses in Pannonia, Byephi, Albocenses (posiblly Dacian -Illyrian that are the Albanians today) on Tysa River, Ansamenses in North Romania, Moesi, Paeoni, etc and the mix of Thracian-Illyrian, Dacian-Illyrian tribes.
Those were all indigenous carriers of predominantly I2/R1b, I2/R1a, I2/E-V13.
Which you wont find to the originally Celtic, Germanic tribes, of predominanly R1b / I1 mix.
And also the so called 'slavic' DNA R1a1 we know is only partially slavic. South Slavs, have a solid 'Ancient' R1a or from preexisting Balkans, ,Danube Carpathian cultures, mostly aquired by slavic speaking through assimilation of preexisting populations.
'Safely' called 'Slavic' DNA can be only Z280-Z282, found mostly in West-Slavs and the traces of those in South-Slavs.
As for the statement that that Norse have some Thracian DNA, it is attested that Cimbri appeared upon the arrival of Thracian / Cimmerian tribes in Jutland about 7-800 BC. They carried the I2 into N Germany and through Jutes, Cimbri into Britain. Also the I2a into Italy, Spain and Sardinia.
 
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Genetics can verify, confirm historical, archaeological evidence and, corroborated with attested cultures, can trace the movement of populations over time.
That's why any sort of assumptions that lack scientific evidence is pure nationalistic nonsense.
As for the predominant I2a in Balkans and around the Carpathian, cannot be anything but Thracian - Getae - Dacian - Illyrian.
All areas of I2 spread were inhabited by Thracians and is also known that Illyrians are the mix of Hallstatt culture with the expending Thracian / Cimmerian, advancing on Danube, over areas of Austria today.
Not to mention that most predominantly I2a areas in Ukraine, Moldova, Romania were inhabited for hundreds of years by Thracians - Getae - Dacian tribes.
Tyragetae on Dnister - NW of Black Sea, Dacian Carpi attested to move from 4th BC from between Dniper-Dnister to Moldova and E Romania, then relocated to areas of SW Ukraine and Slovakia, NE Pannonia, then relocated around Pecs - Hungary today by 4th AD; Costoboci in S-SW Ukraine, Buri, Ratacenses in Pannonia, Byephi, Albocenses (posiblly Dacian -Illyrian that are the Albanians today) on Tysa River, Ansamenses in North Romania, Moesi, Paeoni, etc and the mix of Thracian-Illyrian, Dacian-Illyrian tribes.
Those were all indigenous carriers of predominantly I2/R1b, I2/R1a, I2/E-V13.
Which you wont find to the originally Celtic, Germanic tribes, of predominanly R1b / I1 mix.
And also the so called 'slavic' DNA R1a1 is only partially slavic. South Slavs, have a solid 'Iranic' R1a or from preexisting Balkans, ,Danube Carpathian cultures, mostly aquired by slavic speaking through assimilation of preexisting populations.
'Safely' called 'Slavic' DNA can be only Z280-Z282, found mostly in West-Slavs and the traces of those in South-Slavs.
As for the statement that that Norse have some Thracian DNA, it is attested that Cimbri appeared upon the arrival of Thracian / Cimmerian tribes in Jutland about 7-800 BC. They carried the I2 into N Germany and through Jutes, Cimbri into Britain. Also the I2a into Italy, Spain and Sardinia.

I would like to see some thracian-gtae-dacian aDNA but I can't find any.
Could you please help me with that?
 
What you wrote is the old and debunked theory about the Lusatian origin of the Illyrians, actually, you wrote some mambo jambo original research. Since the 1960s is supported the so-called "autochthonous" model.
The timing, location and admixtures of these samples fit with the Illyrian colonisation of the Dinaric Alps, which is thought to have taken place between 1600 and 1100 BCE. The Illyrians may have been late Steppe migrants from the Volga region that were forced out of the Steppe by the invasion of the northern R1a tribes who established the Srubna culture (from 2000 BCE).
from a recent paper (above )
Gimbatus estimated it between 1500 and 1300 BC and origins in the eastern alps
Gimbatus is back in favour, she was correct about Yannaya etc etc................
you need to update yourself
regards
 
I would like to see some thracian-gtae-dacian aDNA but I can't find any.Could you please help me with that?
Can we find any Pelasg or Phrygyan or Dardani today? We can't because their genes are carried by those cultures that came over the areas of spread and replaced them as Greeks, Turks, Italians, etc.. What we do is associate the predominant HGs to a culture of predominant people, inhabiting an area, during a certain period of time.Obviously that is related to the time-frame a culture spreads over an area, aside of the HG. About the populations around the lower and middle Danube, in and around the Carpathian Mountain, lets not turn around the tail and place them as they have been attested for Millennia, as GETAE. Either they were MassaGetae East of Caspian, TysaGetae on Vistula, TyraGetae, SamoGetae, SarmoGetai, Daco-Getae, Daoi, Mysi, Illiry etc. they were Getae tribes. So were the later wave of Thracians that entered Balkans and advanced to central Europe on Danube. Acording to all sources Getae and Thracians spoke the same language and the Illyrians are the offsprings of Thracians arrival on Middle Danube, while the Dacians are the Gava Culture that developed, about the same time, in Transylvnia today.No matter how we take it, the age and area of spread of Getae family coincides with a high mix of I2a / R1b-L23, I2a / old R1a, I2a / E-V13.Higher E-V13 south of Danube, from first neolithic farmers and predominant I2a north of Danube, nearby its place of origin.Highest M-423 in Dalmatia shows only that slavic migration brought assimilated Getae tribes from SW Ukraine - Carpi, Costoboci, Ansamenses and Buri, Ratacensi, Albocensi, Byephi in Pannonia and Tysa, or ther Dacian-Illyrian, Thracian-Illyrian found on way.And btw, Carpi and Costoboci were also located in Moldova few hundred years, prior to Goths arrival at NV of Black Sea, then exactly in their spot at SW Ukraine appear White Croats, about the time of Avar arrival in the area.I strongly suspect that one of tribes in Avar alliance made their subjects the Dacian-Getae tribes found at SW and West Ukraine and also that Avar invasion into Pannonia and Balkans triggered mass migration of their subjects / slaves, in the areas were the Ostrogoth and Gepid Kingdoms have been destroyed. There are no 'slavs' attested to fight along Avars, but they become 'slavs' first time in history when the Byzantines mention the revolt of the 'servs', the slaves of the greedy and merciless Avars, servs led by a Samo.. to form the Serbian state. V turned B along with the introduction of old-church slavonic.Is known that introduction of Church Slavonic and slavic orthodoxy since X century was a declaration of independence from East and West Roman Empires, meant to break the spiritual and linguistic bond. Based on this indigenous Balkan populations were gradually assimilated. And the process of assimilation continues to date, while there are still pockets of Vlachs spread all over Balkans, and states like Greece don't recognize minorities and the right to study, preserve mother tongue, others like Serbs mass assimilated hundreds of thousands of Vlach even in the last century.So there are the original carriers of I2-Din, in those they found there and on way to assimilate, in the last 1,500 years or so.
 
I would like to see some thracian-gtae-dacian aDNA but I can't find any.
Could you please help me with that?
I would like to see some thracian-gtae-dacian aDNA but I can't find any.
Could you please help me with that?

Can we find any Pelasg or Phrygyan or Dardani today? We can't because their genes are carried by those cultures that came over the areas of spread and replaced them as Greeks, Turks, Italians, etc..

What we do is associate the predominant HGs to a culture of predominant people, inhabiting an area, during a certain period of time.
Obviously that is related to the time-frame a culture spreads over an area, aside of the HG.

About the populations around the lower and middle Danube, in and around the Carpathian Mountain, lets not turn around the tail and place them as they have been attested for Millennia, as GETAE.
Either they were MassaGetae East of Caspian, TysaGetae on Vistula, TyraGetae, SamoGetae, SarmoGetai, Daco-Getae, Daoi, Mysi, Illiry etc. they were Getae tribes. So were the later wave of Thracians that entered Balkans and advanced to central Europe on Danube. Acording to all sources Getae and Thracians spoke the same language and the Illyrians are the offsprings of Thracians arrival on Middle Danube, while the Dacians are the Gava Culture that developed, about the same time, in Transylvnia today.

No matter how we take it, the age and area of spread of Getae family coincides with a high mix of I2a / R1b-L23, I2a / old R1a, I2a / E-V13.
Higher E-V13 south of Danube, from first neolithic farmers and predominant I2a north of Danube, nearby its place of origin.
Highest M-423 in Dalmatia shows only that slavic migration brought assimilated Getae tribes from SW Ukraine - Carpi, Costoboci, Ansamenses and Buri, Ratacensi, Albocensi, Byephi in Pannonia and Tysa, or ther Dacian-Illyrian, Thracian-Illyrian found on way.

And btw, Carpi and Costoboci were also located in Moldova few hundred years, prior to Goths arrival at NV of Black Sea, then exactly in their spot at SW Ukraine appear White Croats, about the time of Avar arrival in the area.
I strongly suspect that one of tribes in Avar alliance made their subjects the Dacian-Getae tribes found at SW and West Ukraine and also that Avar invasion into Pannonia and Balkans triggered mass migration of their subjects / slaves, in the areas were the Ostrogoth and Gepid Kingdoms have been destroyed.

There are no 'slavs' attested to fight along Avars, but they become 'slavs' first time in history when the Byzantines mention the revolt of the 'servs', the slaves of the greedy and merciless Avars, servs led by a Samo..(given the area of initial location possibly a Samo-Getae) to form the Serbian state. V turned B along with the introduction of old-church slavonic.
Is known that introduction of Church Slavonic and slavic orthodoxy since X century was a declaration of independence from East and West Roman Empires, meant to break the spiritual and linguistic bond. Based on this indigenous Balkan populations were gradually assimilated. And the process of assimilation continues to date, while there are still pockets of Vlachs spread all over Balkans, and states like G don't recognize minorities and the right to study, preserve mother tongue, others like S assimilated hundreds of thousands of V even in the last century.

So there are the original carriers of I2-Din, in those they found there and on way to assimilate, in the last 1,500 years or so.
 
Makes a lot of sense to me.
 

Genetics can verify, confirm historical, archaeological evidence and, corroborated with attested cultures, can trace the movement of populations over time.
That's why any sort of assumptions that lack scientific evidence is pure nationalistic nonsense.

Genetics confirm historical records only for Croat arrival to Balkans.

As for the predominant I2a in Balkans and around the Carpathian, cannot be anything but Thracian - Getae - Dacian - Illyrian.

From 5th century exclusively Croatian.

Tyragetae on Dnister - NW of Black Sea, Dacian Carpi attested to move from 4th BC from between Dniper-Dnister to Moldova and E Romania, then relocated to areas of SW

As far as I know, migration starts from White Croatia or few hundred years earlier.

http://www.waughfamily.ca/Ancient/Tree and Map for Hg I.pdf

Green pins belong to the Souther Carpathian branch, which is characterized by SNP Y2613. Its common ancestor is estimated as living 2300±300 years before present.
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?hl=en&mid=1uIEV-Unzie9mLufrQJyWb4fD9zg
 
Genetics confirm historical records only for Croat arrival to Balkans.



From 5th century exclusively Croatian.



As far as I know, migration starts from White Croatia or few hundred years earlier.

http://www.waughfamily.ca/Ancient/Tree and Map for Hg I.pdf


https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?hl=en&mid=1uIEV-Unzie9mLufrQJyWb4fD9zg
Of course, the Croats, the cream of Slavs and the bravest. How could we think otherwise?! What surprises me is the fact that after so many years of rading and thinking on a subject you didn't notice your strong confirmation bias. The force is strong with you...
lol, By force I mean Nationalism, the blind love and believe in your Ethnic Superiority.

Or maybe I'm too harsh. Maybe you are changing your views with time. Didn't you claim before that Slavs always lived in Balkans? Or was it Milos or something like that? Pasting countless "proofs" of the only "truth".
 
What if "Croats" was just another name for the people known today as ancient Slavs? I mean the real name, not the one attached to them by Byzantines...
 

Or maybe I'm too harsh. Maybe you are changing your views with time. Didn't you claim before that Slavs always lived in Balkans? Or was it Milos or something like that? Pasting countless "proofs" of the only "truth".





Hahahahhaaha.. Croats come to Balkans and do not live there before coming, this should be a logic.

Of course, the Croats, the cream of Slavs and the bravest. How could we think otherwise?! What surprises me is the fact that after so many years of rading and thinking on a subject you didn't notice your strong confirmation bias. The force is strong with you...
lol, By force I mean Nationalism, the blind love and believe in your Ethnic Superiority.


Unfortunately this is what genes says. Genes do not know about nationalism, chauvinism, etc., they simply confirm or dispute history records and draw migration of tribe, peoples etc.
 
What if "Croats" was just another name for the people known today as ancient Slavs? I mean the real name, not the one attached to them by Byzantines...

Very possible, it is known that Goths called Carpathians as Croatian mountains.
 
I'm not that deep into history and genetics but I'm astonished about how I2a map correlates with the map of Vlachs. There are a lot of I2a carriers in Croatia and in Bosnia-Herzegovina, especially in the south. I read recently about Vlach tribe Bunjevci moving from west Herzegovina in the middle ages to Dalmatia and even before Bunjevci there were other local Vlachs mixing with the Slavic Croatian newcomers since their arrival around 7th century. The Croats kept their identity but the folks in the south were predominantly of Vlach origin. In all of the west Balkan countries we have I2a where the Vlachs are present or assimilated. In my eyes, it seems that this HG is not that "Slavic" at all.

Another question is, the Vlachs as descendants of Illyrians, Thracians and Celts have obviously in the western parts more I2a. How come Albanians, if they are directly connected to Illyrians, are much higher in E-V13 like the Romanians and Greeks where the Thracians and related peoples were present?

As I mentioned, I'm not asserting anything, I'm just interested in our origin, since in the Balkans the country borders are political boundaries where certain myths are distorting facts and the plain truth. I only want to be educated and do not want to offend anyone's beliefs. But this is a forum where we talk facts.

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I'm not that deep into history and genetics but I'm astonished about how I2a map correlates with the map of Vlachs. There are a lot of I2a carriers in Croatia and in Bosnia-Herzegovina, especially in the south. I read recently about Vlach tribe Bunjevci moving from west Herzegovina in the middle ages to Dalmatia and even before Bunjevci there were other local Vlachs mixing with the Slavic Croatian newcomers since their arrival around 7th century. The Croats kept their identity but the folks in the south were predominantly of Vlach origin. In all of the west Balkan countries we have I2a where the Vlachs are present or assimilated. In my eyes, it seems that this HG is not that "Slavic" at all.

Another question is, the Vlachs as descendants of Illyrians, Thracians and Celts have obviously in the western parts more I2a. How come Albanians, if they are directly connected to Illyrians, are much higher in E-V13 like the Romanians and Greeks where the Thracians and related peoples were present?

As I mentioned, I'm not asserting anything, I'm just interested in our origin, since in the Balkans the country borders are political boundaries where certain myths are distorting facts and the plain truth. I only want to be educated and do not want to offend anyone's beliefs. But this is a forum where we talk facts.

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Thre is litle problem with that.
The population of Russia (without Crimea) is 144.463.451 million people.
The Y-DNA haplogroup I is found between zero and 26.8 percent among Russian men. Their average frequency is 17.6% when all regions of Russia are taken into account, but a little higher (23.5%) when the scope is limited to central and southern Russia. Some members of the "Russia-Slavic DNA Project" carry the sub-types I2a and I2a2 ( 10-15% is I2a-"Din" ).
There is 8-10 milion I2a people (at least) in Russia.Are they of vlach origin?
 
Thre is litle problem with that.
The population of Russia (without Crimea) is 144.463.451 million people.
The Y-DNA haplogroup I is found between zero and 26.8 percent among Russian men. Their average frequency is 17.6% when all regions of Russia are taken into account, but a little higher (23.5%) when the scope is limited to central and southern Russia. Some members of the "Russia-Slavic DNA Project" carry the sub-types I2a and I2a2 ( 10-15% is I2a-"Din" ).
There is 8-10 milion I2a people (at least) in Russia.Are they of vlach origin?
You have a point there. But they have maybe something more in common with the Vlachs than the Croat newcomers in the south. In north Croatia people are more "Slavic" with much less I2a and much more R1a. Though, I can not tell for sure with which of these two groups the I2a core is. I just see this correlation. Thanks.

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Bunjevci are croatian subetnic group. The name "Bunjevci" is just a nickname given to a part of them. In the past some called them "Vlachs" due to their social status and way of living (transhumance), but rarely. They are most likely a mix of Croats and old Dalmatians. However, their Y-DNA and autosomal genetics are different from real Vlachs and Albanians.
 
Bunjevci are croatian subetnic group. The name "Bunjevci" is just a nickname given to a part of them. In the past some called them "Vlachs" due to their social status and way of living (transhumance), but rarely. They are most likely a mix of Croats and old Dalmatians. However, their Y-DNA and autosomal genetics are different from real Vlachs and Albanians.
Could you give me any link to more info? I've read a few different theories about them. It is possible, they had a few centuries of time to get mixed with "Croats" but not in large numbers and even those Croats were already mixed with locals. Thank you.

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I'm not that deep into history and genetics but I'm astonished about how I2a map correlates with the map of Vlachs. There are a lot of I2a carriers in Croatia and in Bosnia-Herzegovina, especially in the south. I read recently about Vlach tribe Bunjevci moving from west Herzegovina in the middle ages to Dalmatia and even before Bunjevci there were other local Vlachs mixing with the Slavic Croatian newcomers since their arrival around 7th century. The Croats kept their identity but the folks in the south were predominantly of Vlach origin. In all of the west Balkan countries we have I2a where the Vlachs are present or assimilated. In my eyes, it seems that this HG is not that "Slavic" at all.



As I mentioned, I'm not asserting anything, I'm just interested in our origin, since in the Balkans the country borders are political boundaries where certain myths are distorting facts and the plain truth. I only want to be educated and do not want to offend anyone's beliefs. But this is a forum where we talk facts.

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Bunjevci coming from western Herzegovina, there is I2a in the epicenter up to 70% (Croatians).
Vlach genetics is not I2a , Vlach genetics is E1b, R1b, J2, I2a dinaric-N, R1a with migration from Southeast Balkans. It is interesting that Vlach groups also have I2a dinaric-N types with White Croat mutation I-S17250 which means that Croats are assimilated into Vlachs groups through 1500 years of living in Greece, Albania, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Romania.

Therefore that Bunjevci are Vlach origin they should have and other haplogroups not just one or two.

I2a that exist in western Herzegovina is precisely from migration of White Croats to Roman Dalmatia.

Another question is, the Vlachs as descendants of Illyrians, Thracians and Celts have obviously in the western parts more I2a. How come Albanians, if they are directly connected to Illyrians, are much higher in E-V13 like the Romanians and Greeks where the Thracians and related peoples were present?
Vlachs are mixture of 5.6 haplogroups, this means that they have an indigenous E1b, J2, R1b types and I2a and R1a types that comes with Slavs. Possible they have R1a and I2a types that came to Balkans before Croat and Slavs haplotypes , it will be seen in future .
 
You have a point there. But they have maybe something more in common with the Vlachs than the Croat newcomers in the south. In north Croatia people are more "Slavic" with much less I2a and much more R1a. Though, I can not tell for sure with which of these two groups the I2a core is. I just see this correlation. Thanks.Sent from my SM-G900F using Eupedia Forum mobile app
Croats are I2a and R1a types, I2a is stronger in the south Croatia, R1a is stronger in the north Croatia, but R1a is second haplotype in the south and I2a is second haplotype in the north. Croats are mix of R1a and I2a types. Later comes Vlach-Albanian haplogroups which are mixed with these R1a and I2a types in Croatia.
 

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