I2a-Din came to the Balkans and Dinaric Alps with the Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians

In case you arent aware, ukraine and south poland were part of the dacian world. Some i2a-din tmrca in south europe precedes the slavic expansion by hundreds of years

Maybe it isnt dacian, it could be celtic, it could be ostrogothic, all possibilies remain until we get more ancient dna to confirm and so far just like v-13 it has been hard to come by possibly due to cremation. So, what do you think is dacian y dna or did they just dissapear into thin air?

What you need to understand is i2a is the original marker of europeans and has been in europe for 20,000+ years so it makes little sense for it to all of a sudden expand in europe with late arrivals from the east (slavs) where i2 has very little history

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...chromosome-lineages-in-Europe-Each-circle.png

In case you weren't aware, Ukraine and South Poland overlapped/were a part of the Proto-Slavic urheimat.

I wouldn't rush to any conclusions based on generalizations by Roman and Greek accounts. They tended to broadly generalize large swathes of people. I mean they classified people as Germanic based solely on lifestyles and dress. Even in instances where they admittedly distinguish the language as non-German.

The Roman's were notorious for that. There is zero evidence Dacia proper extended as far as Rome assumed, at least in an ethno-longuistice and genetic sense.

For the longest Slavs were called Scythians and Sarmatians even by medieval accounts. Because they occupied the same territories. Proto-Slavs could have had some geneflow into Northernmost Dacian territories. However, the overwhelming majority of I-Y3120 was entrenched in the Slavic culture since before the accounts of their arrival on the Danube.

Tmrca doesn't always mean it's been there that long. There's plenty of Americans who share large tmrcas throughout the nation. Are you going to tell me the Anglo-Saxons arrived much earlier than the actual time their ancestors came to the New world?

The simple fact is the majority of micro-satelite diversity is within and around the Proto-Slavic urheimat. Not found in one ancient non-Slavic or non-Avaro-Slavic, Viking or other DNA.

The Celtic origin based on western branches is overblown. The common ancestor Y3120 has with its Western cousin under CTS10228 predates the Proto-Celts back to the Bronze Age.

You mentioning 20k years of I2a Paleolithic presence is no grounds to deny the Slavic affiliation of Y3120. You're going back before the ice age. You can do that with R1a too, back to a time they were Siberian dudes. That statement of yours is irrelevant to the discussion. I-Y3120 goes back to one man around 200BCE. Antiquity. 99% of his descents are found mostly in South, East and minimally West Slavs(which makes this East Germanic/Celtic argument even flimsier).

I don't know what Dacian DNA is like. If I had to guess purely on what we know about Paleolithic YDNA right now, I imagine E-V13 was prevelant, and to some extent R1b, and J2. Including rare branches of I2 that were found.

That map is irrelevant to I-Y3120 which we are discussing. It's history in East Slavs is a fact. We have aDNA for it, we have 10-20% in East Slavs with high micro-satelite diversity. Could some singletons of I-Y3120 be linked to Dacians? Sure maybe. But there's no evidence for it. And most of it wouldn't be connected to them anyways.
 
Crazy how "Mr. Holier than thou" Mount can get a really important thread banned on that place.

Yea its a shame. I see Gashgubetin started a thread. Let's see how long it lasts before getting closed lol.
 
There a lot of theories on the Carpatho-Balkan sphere, some being that most people where essentially Thracians, but largely mixed with Illyrian, Scythian, Sarmatian, Celtic and Balto-Slavic in particular.
Especially the Dacians and Costobocci, whereas in Bastarnae the Germanic element was more dominant, otherwise very mixed too, Iazyges Sarmatian dominant, but equally mixed.
The results we got so far seen to confirm this: Different people entered the wider zone and as a rule, they mixed.
Therefore there will be bith fairly pure groups, dominated by say Thracian and Germanic, but there will be also a lot of mixed and diverse people.
The I2 is hard to pin down because it was probably no dominant lineage before it grew with the Slavs.
 
In case you weren't aware, Ukraine and South Poland overlapped/were a part of the Proto-Slavic urheimat.
I wouldn't rush to any conclusions based on generalizations by Roman and Greek accounts. They tended to broadly generalize large swathes of people. I mean they classified people as Germanic based solely on lifestyles and dress. Even in instances where they admittedly distinguish the language as non-German.
The Roman's were notorious for that. There is zero evidence Dacia proper extended as far as Rome assumed, at least in an ethno-longuistice and genetic sense.
For the longest Slavs were called Scythians and Sarmatians even by medieval accounts. Because they occupied the same territories. Proto-Slavs could have had some geneflow into Northernmost Dacian territories. However, the overwhelming majority of I-Y3120 was entrenched in the Slavic culture since before the accounts of their arrival on the Danube.
Tmrca doesn't always mean it's been there that long. There's plenty of Americans who share large tmrcas throughout the nation. Are you going to tell me the Anglo-Saxons arrived much earlier than the actual time their ancestors came to the New world?
The simple fact is the majority of micro-satelite diversity is within and around the Proto-Slavic urheimat. Not found in one ancient non-Slavic or non-Avaro-Slavic, Viking or other DNA.
The Celtic origin based on western branches is overblown. The common ancestor Y3120 has with its Western cousin under CTS10228 predates the Proto-Celts back to the Bronze Age.
You mentioning 20k years of I2a Paleolithic presence is no grounds to deny the Slavic affiliation of Y3120. You're going back before the ice age. You can do that with R1a too, back to a time they were Siberian dudes. That statement of yours is irrelevant to the discussion. I-Y3120 goes back to one man around 200BCE. Antiquity. 99% of his descents are found mostly in South, East and minimally West Slavs(which makes this East Germanic/Celtic argument even flimsier).
I don't know what Dacian DNA is like. If I had to guess purely on what we know about Paleolithic YDNA right now, I imagine E-V13 was prevelant, and to some extent R1b, and J2. Including rare branches of I2 that were found.
That map is irrelevant to I-Y3120 which we are discussing. It's history in East Slavs is a fact. We have aDNA for it, we have 10-20% in East Slavs with high micro-satelite diversity. Could some singletons of I-Y3120 be linked to Dacians? Sure maybe. But there's no evidence for it. And most of it wouldn't be connected to them anyways.

Lets wait and see. Proto slavs did not form in poland, they formed much further east (how do you explain slavic language being spoken in russia??) where i2a did not exist. I am fairly confident that i2a-din had nothing to do with proto slavs and was picked up by them when they moved to central/south europe. Like i said, it makes no sense for people that moved out of the "steppe" last - slavs to exclusively carry the european hunter gatherer line which was in south, north and west europe for 20 thousand years

You need to understand that r1b is a recent arrival into europe from the steppe and wiped out i2a everywhere it expanded but r1b never overran south europe to a similar extent where i2a continued to exist. Meanwhile r1a doesnt have much/any ancient history in south europe so a scenario of it coming out of the steppe and replacing i2a does not exist. I2a has been around since the beginning in europe and became part of various cultures/tribes that passed by, surviving and expanding with some at different rates

https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/...np-shotgun.png

This is a very nice tool - https://camayal.info/wa/treetom/?id=...sRKHMEIOlddPdc
 
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There a lot of theories on the Carpatho-Balkan sphere, some being that most people where essentially Thracians, but largely mixed with Illyrian, Scythian, Sarmatian, Celtic and Balto-Slavic in particular.
Especially the Dacians and Costobocci, whereas in Bastarnae the Germanic element was more dominant, otherwise very mixed too, Iazyges Sarmatian dominant, but equally mixed.
The results we got so far seen to confirm this: Different people entered the wider zone and as a rule, they mixed.
Therefore there will be bith fairly pure groups, dominated by say Thracian and Germanic, but there will be also a lot of mixed and diverse people.
The I2 is hard to pin down because it was probably no dominant lineage before it grew with the Slavs.

The same is true for R-L1029. It together with I-Y3120 mimic founder effects/bottlenecks and spreads almost perfectly if not with a large overlap.

Microsatelite diversity for Y3120 is around South Belarus/Polesiya and Northern Ukraine. R-L1029, depending on studies has a microsatelite diversity around South East Poland/southwest Belarus and North/Northwest Ukraine. If you trust 3rd part tools like the heatmaps, diversity for R-L1029 is between West Poland, East Germany and Czechia with a core in Bohemia.

But I think these calculators exclude alot in comparison to these studies.

Is it possible some singletons moved with these groups? Sure. I mean we already have L1029 in a La Tene eastern Celt in Czechia and downstream at that. So is a singleton under Y3120 possible as well? Sure.

If any fit that possibility under Y3120 it's Y18831. Yet there is still no guarantee.

The Roman's generalized and lumped alot of people together. Some Northern Dacian groups were probably more Celtic/Sarmatian/Scythian/Pre-Slavic or all the above.

If we are talking about the Dacians South of the Carpathians, they will undoubtedly be paleo-balkan in majority when it comes to Y-DNA. And their R1a will likely be Z93 and I2 related to some now extinct clades that make up a very small percent.

At times Dacia Proper corresponded to the present-day countries of Romania and Moldova, as well as smaller parts of Bulgaria, Serbia, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, and South West Ukraine area.

So, assuming R-L1029 and I-Y3120 were on the fringes of North East Carpathians and neighbors to the Northernmost Dacians, who were pretty mixed to begin with, one could perhaps link them to later "Free Dacians" that were described as a collection of fringe tribes outside the Roman sphere of influence who together with migrants from Dacia proper, would eventually undergo Latinization.

Yet, these are mentioned later being destroyed by an invasion that consisted of the Huns, Sciri and Carpi. Yet Carpi are referred to as Dacian. And in some as Celts or even Slavs. Kncludong the Costoboci.

The reality is, some of these North Eastern Most "Dacians" were not Dacians at all and merely lumped together by Roman's for some similarities and maybe allegiances. Some of these tribes literally occupied parts of the Proto-Slavic urheimat. You can call them Dacian if you want.

But it would merely be a superficial label.

I don't expect I-Y3120 or R-L1029 to show up in Dacia proper. And if it does, it's likely some atypical lineages that expanded with the East La Tene Celts that entered the Balkans.

But again this would be rare singletons. Most subclades expanded with Slavs. Regardless if they were Carpi, Costoboci, Daci or w.e. their descendants would habe mostly expanded from the North East in the early medieval.
 
That R1a in La Tene was clearly an outlier both by Y-DNA and autosomal tendencies, and everyone agrees on that. Instead of imagining Italo-Celtic-like (highly unlikely, these groups have little (Eastern Germanic influence) to none R1a) we should just go to more realistic Balto-Slavic-like.

Same applies to I2a2-Din, so far, it has strikingly association and correlation with the migration of Slavic people. In fact, it was well known 10 years ago when Kenn Nordvedt already stamped and clarified its origin.
 
TaktikatEMalet is not an Albanian.
He has been for years on some fora, registered originally as "Kastrioti1443". He is either an Italian with real or not/real Arberesh origin story, or he is related to Albania but he is a foreigner.

He is worried he might be I2a Din, hence this blabbering. :LOL:

The same is true for R-L1029. It together with I-Y3120 mimic founder effects/bottlenecks and spreads almost perfectly if not with a large overlap.
Microsatelite diversity for Y3120 is around South Belarus/Polesiya and Northern Ukraine. R-L1029, depending on studies has a microsatelite diversity around South East Poland/southwest Belarus and North/Northwest Ukraine. If you trust 3rd part tools like the heatmaps, diversity for R-L1029 is between West Poland, East Germany and Czechia with a core in Bohemia.

I think you called me somewhere "Serbian trash", well I have never ever been to Belgrade for ex., though I could have.. I never, ever identified as a Serb, in any documents. My paternal family is Serbian/Montenegrin.
What kind of a Serb would fathom his ancestors to have been Turkic? No kind of a Serb.

Plus I know some Albanian since 2016.. Why would I study the language "I dislike".. I like all tribal peoples.

About slave thing. As Papazoglu showed, there were non-Illyrian underclass people living as their subjects. Proto-Albanians are almost certainly among them.

You, as a Shkia, should understand the meaning of the word. After all Slavs were called Sclaveni, and this was understood in old Latin documents to mean slaves.

It is your hg that is originally Slavic, as R1a Z280 clades were Baltic originally, and I2a are Bastarnae that got smashed by the Dacians and Sarmatians so they ran towards the R-M458 and R-Z280 people, joining them..

That is the only truth on the topic of I2a Din.
 
That R1a in La Tene was clearly an outlier both by Y-DNA and autosomal tendencies, and everyone agrees on that. Instead of imagining Italo-Celtic-like (highly unlikely, these groups have little (Eastern Germanic influence) to none R1a) we should just go to more realistic Balto-Slavic-like.

Same applies to I2a2-Din, so far, it has strikingly association and correlation with the migration of Slavic people. In fact, it was well known 10 years ago when Kenn Nordvedt already stamped and clarified its origin.

Depends which one you're referring to. The R1a La Tene from Hungary was obviously Balto-Slavic like.


The R-L1029 la tene from Czechia was only 25% balto-slavic like, and celto-germanic for the remainder of genome with a superficial similarity to modern Scandinavians. He was also confirmed to be buried with a Celtic arm ring. His specific singleton is also not really that common in the broader expanse of L1029 which obviously mostly expanded in the early medieval with Slavs. Including I-Y3120.

However, it's obvious some geneflow into La Tene from neighboring Pomeranian/Lusatian cultures happened.

We also have a R-M458 in late Hallstatt that was majority Italo-Celtic with a big chunk of Iron Age Baltic admixture suggesting migration from further North-East some generations earlier.
 
TaktikatEMalet is not an Albanian.
He has been for years on some fora, registered originally as "Kastrioti1443". He is either an Italian with real or not/real Arberesh origin story, or he is related to Albania but he is a foreigner.
He is worried he might be I2a Din, hence this blabbering. :LOL:
I think you called me somewhere "Serbian trash", well I have never ever been to Belgrade for ex., though I could have.. I never, ever identified as a Serb, in any documents. My paternal family is Serbian/Montenegrin.
What kind of a Serb would fathom his ancestors to have been Turkic? No kind of a Serb.
Plus I know some Albanian since 2016.. Why would I study the language "I dislike".. I like all tribal peoples.
About slave thing. As Papazoglu showed, there were non-Illyrian underclass people living as their subjects. Proto-Albanians are almost certainly among them.
You, as a Shkia, should understand the meaning of the word. After all Slavs were called Sclaveni, and this was understood in old Latin documents to mean slaves.
It is your hg that is originally Slavic, as R1a Z280 clades were Baltic originally, and I2a are Bastarnae that got smashed by the Dacians and Sarmatians so they ran towards the R-M458 and R-Z280 people, joining them..
That is the only truth on the topic of I2a Din.

Biggest nonsense ive read. Any i2a is a line to be proud of as it is the original european hunter gatherer line. Whats your problem with arbereshe or gjergj kastrioti or 1443? These are all important things in albanian history, arbereshe had 10%+ i2a-din and they are the only source we have that is close to "ancient albanian" dna

It is not possible for i2a-din to have gotten "smashed" if it had a rapid expansion over last 2000 years like you are suggesting. I2a originally had nothing to do with slavs (it was definitely assimilated by them), it is an uber european line that has been in europe for 22,000+ years

And you made all that nonsense up about dacians and sarmatians as they were allies to bastarnae -

"The Bastarnae first came into conflict with the Romans during the first century BC when, in alliance with Dacians and Sarmatians, they unsuccessfully resisted Roman expansion into Moesia and Pannonia. Later, they appear to have maintained friendly relations with the Roman Empire during the first two centuries AD. This changed c. 180, when the Bastarnae are recorded as participants in an invasion of Roman territory, once again in alliance with Sarmatian and Dacian elements. In the mid-3rd century, the Bastarnae were part of a Gothic-led grand coalition of lower Danube tribes that repeatedly invaded the Balkan provinces of the Roman Empire.

Many Bastarnae were resettled within the Roman Empire in the late third century."
 
Biggest nonsense ive read. Any i2a is a line to be proud of as it is the original european hunter gatherer line. Whats your problem with arbereshe or gjergj kastrioti or 1443? These are all important things in albanian history, arbereshe had 10%+ i2a-din and they are the only source we have that is close to "ancient albanian" dna
It is not possible for i2a-din to have gotten "smashed" if it had a rapid expansion over last 2000 years like you are suggesting. I2a originally had nothing to do with slavs (it was definitely assimilated by them), it is an uber european line that has been in europe for 22,000+ years
And you made all that nonsense up about dacians and sarmatians as they were allies to bastarnae -
"The Bastarnae first came into conflict with the Romans during the first century BC when, in alliance with Dacians and Sarmatians, they unsuccessfully resisted Roman expansion into Moesia and Pannonia. Later, they appear to have maintained friendly relations with the Roman Empire during the first two centuries AD. This changed c. 180, when the Bastarnae are recorded as participants in an invasion of Roman territory, once again in alliance with Sarmatian and Dacian elements. In the mid-3rd century, the Bastarnae were part of a Gothic-led grand coalition of lower Danube tribes that repeatedly invaded the Balkan provinces of the Roman Empire.
Many Bastarnae were resettled within the Roman Empire in the late third century."
Bastarnae where a germanic and partly finnic group of people ( various tribes ) coming out of non coastal modern Poland...............they where invited to move to northern Macedonia area circa 350BC by the macedonian king ............nearly 100000 moved ( men women and children ) they where to quell the dardanians that where putting pressure on the paeonian and macedonian northern frontier

The Bastarnae were used by the Macedonian kings Philip V and Perseus against their Thracian enemies
 
Bastarnae where a germanic and partly finnic group of people ( various tribes ) coming out of non coastal modern Poland...............they where invited to move to northern Macedonia area circa 350BC by the macedonian king ............nearly 100000 moved ( men women and children ) they where to quell the dardanians that where putting pressure on the paeonian and macedonian northern frontier
The Bastarnae were used by the Macedonian kings Philip V and Perseus against their Thracian enemies

The Bastarnae were considered a mixed tribe of Germanic, Celtic and Dacian elements rather, but no details being known and there was and is always a lot of speculation about their real ethnic character. Probably ancient DNA will help to resolve it. A lot of the North Carpathain groups were essentially Celtic-Thracian/Dacian mixed groups, before the Germanics came, and the latter picked some of these up. Which might be part of the reason for E-V13 appearing in Gothic areas.
 
What do people make of dys448=20 presence in south europe? Most of it predates south slavic migration by hundreds of years and it has greater diversity and frequency in greece and albania instead of south slavic countries
 
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The Bastarnae were considered a mixed tribe of Germanic, Celtic and Dacian elements rather, but no details being known and there was and is always a lot of speculation about their real ethnic character. Probably ancient DNA will help to resolve it. A lot of the North Carpathain groups were essentially Celtic-Thracian/Dacian mixed groups, before the Germanics came, and the latter picked some of these up. Which might be part of the reason for E-V13 appearing in Gothic areas.

That's what they were called by different authors, but that is not any proof they were mixed or changed ethnicity. They were simply an obscure group at the edges of Rome, hard to identify, so the authors identified them as they understood it. However based on material culture they are best seen as the archeological culture that brought Jastorf material to Ukraine and Moldova. There was a migration of Jastorf elements eastward that reached even the Desna river, the new culture is called Zarubintsy. Russian archeologists have linked this intrusion to the Gubin group of Jastorf culture. Even before it's migration to the east, when Gubin group occupied the left bank of the Oder river, it had unusual strong contact with the Przeworks culture. This implies that even when it was part of the Jastorf cultural horizon, these Gubin Jastorfers were treated on the hostile side by the main Jastorf group(Germanics) and had to ally themselves with the R1a proto-Venedi to keep their entity alive.
I2a-Dinaric friendly relations with the R1a tribes began on the modern German-Polish border and lasted until both groups merged and formed the Slavs.

I have not seen this mentioned, I have also stopped following much of the chat, maybe others have proposed it by now. But I am pretty confident the migration to Ukraine occurred when the Scythian power fell(Sarmatian intrusions). The Bastarnae took the opportunity and risk to settle frontier lands that no one would dare because of Scythian raids. Their success was temporary, because in time the new masters of the steppe were just as unbearable as the Scythians. This forced most of the Bastarnae tribes to flee northward toward the pripet marshes and south eastern Poland intensifying their contact and relationship with the R1a tribes. In time they merged and appear in history as we know them.....Slavs.

This hypothesis has been around a decade, it's pretty solid. I have not seen any better proposals. To me it fits, the same way your explanation of E-V13 does.
If I remember correctly a rare branch, an insignificant brother branch of I2a-Dinaric main line, has been found among a few Poles and East Germans, suggesting it's starting point was on the eastern north German plain.
 
That's what they were called by different authors, but that is not any proof they were mixed or changed ethnicity. They were simply an obscure group at the edges of Rome, hard to identify, so the authors identified them as they understood it. However based on material culture they are best seen as the archeological culture that brought Jastorf material to Ukraine and Moldova. There was a migration of Jastorf elements eastward that reached even the Desna river, the new culture is called Zarubintsy. Russian archeologists have linked this intrusion to the Gubin group of Jastorf culture. Even before it's migration to the east, when Gubin group occupied the left bank of the Oder river, it had unusual strong contact with the Przeworks culture. This implies that even when it was part of the Jastorf cultural horizon, these Gubin Jastorfers were treated on the hostile side by the main Jastorf group(Germanics) and had to ally themselves with the R1a proto-Venedi to keep their entity alive.
I2a-Dinaric friendly relations with the R1a tribes began on the modern German-Polish border and lasted until both groups merged and formed the Slavs.

I have not seen this mentioned, I have also stopped following much of the chat, maybe others have proposed it by now. But I am pretty confident the migration to Ukraine occurred when the Scythian power fell(Sarmatian intrusions). The Bastarnae took the opportunity and risk to settle frontier lands that no one would dare because of Scythian raids. Their success was temporary, because in time the new masters of the steppe were just as unbearable as the Scythians. This forced most of the Bastarnae tribes to flee northward toward the pripet marshes and south eastern Poland intensifying their contact and relationship with the R1a tribes. In time they merged and appear in history as we know them.....Slavs.

This hypothesis has been around a decade, it's pretty solid. I have not seen any better proposals. To me it fits, the same way your explanation of E-V13 does.
If I remember correctly a rare branch, an insignificant brother branch of I2a-Dinaric main line, has been found among a few Poles and East Germans, suggesting it's starting point was on the eastern north German plain.

It is possible but what do you make of dinaric south and dinaric north? Dinaric north looks to have more ancient history in europe, could those be bastarnae (disputed as celts or germanic in origin)? Maybe when the bastarnae merged with the r1a slavs dinaric south formed and rapidly expanded
 
About slave thing. As Papazoglu showed, there were non-Illyrian underclass people living as their subjects. Proto-Albanians are almost certainly among them.

This is completely nonsense and not based on any kind of historical evidence. It is pure wishful thinking.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanoi

This is the thing about many of you people on these boards. You are mostly people who rely on emotional arguments and wishful thinking theories.
 
This is completely nonsense and not based on any kind of historical evidence. It is pure wishful thinking.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanoi

This is the thing about many of you people on these boards. You are mostly people who rely on emotional arguments and wishful thinking theories.

I would ignore him, he's Serb.
 
It is possible but what do you make of dinaric south and dinaric north? Dinaric north looks to have more ancient history in europe, could those be bastarnae (disputed as celts or germanic in origin)? Maybe when the bastarnae merged with the r1a slavs dinaric south formed and rapidly expanded


Dinaric South represents a conservative group that did not mix much the R1a, but kept to themselves, while I2a North formed tribes/communities with various R1a tribes. I2a Dinaric south is the conservative element among Bastarnae. Even in modern day, they are the most aggressive of all Slavs.
 
Dinaric South represents a conservative group that did not mix much the R1a, but kept to themselves, while I2a North formed tribes/communities with various R1a tribes. I2a Dinaric south is the conservative element among Bastarnae. Even in modern day, they are the most aggressive of all Slavs.
Wow, nice! Where’s this data from? Netflix? Barbarians TV series? Or Vikings.
 

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