I2a-Din came to the Balkans and Dinaric Alps with the Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians
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Academic sources are mostly stuck at I-M423 subclade and, at least in Croatian academic sources, over a decade unanimously consider autochthonous origin. Everything else, especially Eupedia and genetic hobbyists (Klyosov's work is labeled as pseudoscientific), are not academic sources. Currently, we are at the stage of ideological theorization, anyone who is trying to sell one or another story is simply a demagogue, but the scientific consideration is at least official or mainstream, which many forget. That's why the topic is discussed so extensively at forums, we do not have any ancient sample with I-CTS10228 subclade.
Autosomal DNA is not of much use if we're discussing for a period older than 300 years. There several possible reasons some populations are more closely related than to others.
There will never be any "consensus" at Eupedia if we discuss these things with people named Miroslav, etc.
What we currently know about I2a-Din aka I2a-CTS10228 is what I posted in my recent posts here. Take this from someone who has been deeply involved in this field for years now. Bottom line: In today's age of Next Generation Sequencing and ancient DNA, the evidence is overwhelming that it came to the Balkans with Slavic expansions.
In light of all this evidence, anyone who still pushes for the "indigeneous" theory is either not (well) informed in this field, or is intentionally spreading misleading information due to nationalistic reasons.
Of course Angela is welcomed to add anything else.
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We already have some kind of consensus on Eupedia when you have on I2 article pushed ideological hypothesis. The forum is another thing, however, both this and Serbian DNA Project among others are not official and reliable sources someone can cite. Maciamo and others are the ones who decide to make a stand for specific hypothesis promotion. It's their problem they support and promote a theory not based on any evidence, and ignorance of contradicting information. Well, if you're making names, then sincerely we really can not have consensus with people like you who do not know when was Bronze Age in Europe.
"The evidence is overwhelming", what you say is just a funny mantra, nothing more or less. Stop to repeat and misguide yourself and others, there is no evidence. Unless you want to act according to the quote by A. Hitler "If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed".
Apsurdistan
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Ok you guys are just starting to have an argument on a personal level. It's not helping the others who are trying to learn something by absorbing FACTUAL information.
The most important fact in the objective discussion is finding if something is or is not a fact, and a fact is there's still no evidence. All those who want to learn something factual need to understand that before they go to read both Eupedian or some other project presentation of the haplogroup origin and expansion. If you, and those with a similar level of understanding, want to learn something and change the current conversation, a good start would be a list of questions.
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How am I gonna ask any viable questions when you just say "there is no evidence" what do you mean there's no evidence of what? If there's no evidence then what is all the arguing about, we shouldn't even be having the discussion then.
I could ask a whole bunch of quesrions, I don't even know where to start though.
What is your major beef with Trojet cuz he claims that I2a1b hasn't been found in ancient Balkans and that the subclade is too young to not be Slavic? And it's found in significant percentages only in Slavic countries or semi-Slavic like Romania Hungary. And you think that he's wrong. Why?
Pardon me if I misunderstood or missed anything but I'm trying to follow...
I could ask a whole bunch of quesrions, I don't even know where to start though.
What is your major beef with Trojet cuz he claims that I2a1b hasn't been found in ancient Balkans and that the subclade is too young to not be Slavic? And it's found in significant percentages only in Slavic countries or semi-Slavic like Romania Hungary. And you think that he's wrong. Why?
Pardon me if I misunderstood or missed anything but I'm trying to follow...
A. Papadimitriou
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What we know is that [FONT=fira_sanslight]E1b1b1a1b1 existed close to Split ~8000 years ago. I don't know how they interpret it but it could mean that E1b1b subclades found in Europe played a role in Cardial Neolithic (?).
And then there is the J2b2a in Vrgorac in Bronze Age Croatia [/FONT][FONT=fira_sansbold](1700-1500 BCE) [/FONT][FONT=fira_sanslight]which maybe has something to do with historical Illyrians.
I think those are the only things we know about Western Balkans. The rest would be educated guesses. The argument 'hasn't been found' isn't valid because the samples are minimal. Other arguments may be more convincing.[/FONT]
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Yeah I guess to summarize Miroslav is saying there's just not enough ancient DNA evidence the CTS-(i don't know the number it's too long w/e it is) sublcade to jump to conclusions. And he's right same thing can be said about I1 and its subclades. But Trojet is also right and others who wanna jump on that bandwagon.
And another thing I don't know why some people from my own neck of the woods just vehemently want to deny any idea of a Slavic expansion and that those are mainly our roots. Is it that important how long our ancestors dwelled in the Balkans and stayed on one patch of dirt? Either way it was all a long time ago and whatever the case may be we still probably have a significant portion of indigenous Balkan and of course broadly European genetics. And is it really that relevant for today? I just don't get what's the fuss. I do want to know about mankind history especially my own roots but I'll accept facts or whatever seems the most plausible whatever it may be.
And another thing I don't know why some people from my own neck of the woods just vehemently want to deny any idea of a Slavic expansion and that those are mainly our roots. Is it that important how long our ancestors dwelled in the Balkans and stayed on one patch of dirt? Either way it was all a long time ago and whatever the case may be we still probably have a significant portion of indigenous Balkan and of course broadly European genetics. And is it really that relevant for today? I just don't get what's the fuss. I do want to know about mankind history especially my own roots but I'll accept facts or whatever seems the most plausible whatever it may be.
I agree.However that sample is from Bronze age,the first mention of Illyrians is much later yet not specifically defined area,many people later were lump under that name even the Pannonians,the rest is archeological speculations like for many other people with some proposing migration from Lusatian culture and so on or Vucedol in this matter.Much like "Indo Europeans".Illyria like province much like Germania was inhabited by people of different origins or different languages not a kin.Encheleans were perhaps the first Illyrians by name in mythology either living near present Ohrid or maybe Montenegro.See Illyrii proprie dicti of Pliny also.Same goes with name Slav first was applied to much smaller group of people before it shifted.Hence the constructed history based on more "facts" than on guess can be their first mention according to moderate historians like Curta or Danijel Dzino.The second also write about Illyrians.Reconstructing cultures and also migrations were wild guesses of Romanticists,Nazis and ideologicaly charged people.Just see how many cultures are attributed to Slavs and some even take this hypothesis as fact even today.Edit: my guess for haplogroups J2b2 and E1b1b is that both of them were farmers creating the Cardial culture and later intermixing with G2a farmers from further inland,mixing was easy cause all were farmers,then finaly mixing with hunter gatherers (I2a and others) maybe after adopting agriculture or common way of life,later will come the steppe people creating the happy family we know today.I'll leave the so called migration period from here.
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I mentioned politics and not by accident, but honestly I'm not interested more to write about it, only several sentences now.
Russian scientists (and I had polemics with on of them) strongly pushed idea that I-CTS10228 is Slavic marker.
Do you know why, because if it is true Russia can have strong influence in the Balkans on Southern Slavic countries.
If it is science or politics, unfortunately it is much more politics.
It is the easiest way that Garrick does not participate in the forum.
Honestly, I'm only interested for science and truth, but I'm an individual, some strategists developed whole system.
Unfortunately when it comes to the Balkans politics is ahead of science and truth.
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A. Papadimitriou
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Yes, I agree with you. We said for example that there are no Illyrians in Homer. I am also aware that in Middle Ages the term was used for South Slavs, basically Bosnians, Croats and Serbs but currently we can say that J2b2a etc. may have something to do with some Illyrians.
Ok. But autosomal dna shows we are definitely pretty closely related to other Slavs...
The mean population pairwise genetic distances for South Slavs (D[SUB]Nei[/SUB] = 0.239 for NRY; F[SUB]ST[/SUB] = 0.0009 for autosomal data) (Tables A,B in S1 File) are comparable or higher to the ones for East Slavs despite the smaller region within the Balkan Peninsula that they occupy. Furthermore, Slovenians lie close to the non-Slavic-speaking Hungarians, whereas eastern South Slavs group is located together with non-Slavic-speaking but geographically neighboring Romanians and, to some extent, with Greeks.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0135820
As a bronze age haplogroup certainly was present among people called Illyrians,I do not know to what extend but except Albanians It is present also in Greeks and to lesser extent South Slavs.Thus I will think of it as "farmer" haplogroup,bronze age balkan not as ethnic marker if we can speak of present or antuquity "ethnicities" when this haplogroup entered the Balkans, as some here try.Illyrians and Greeks were different people,if this was ethnic marker they should have been same.
DuPidh
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Slavs are like Greeks. They claim everything! The way Slavs claim Illyrians are Slavs ,so do Greeks claim Epiros is Greek. Its the same sickness. Megalomania! Greeks claim Anatolia is Greek, Macedonia is Greek, Epiros is Greek, Cyprus is Greek, the moon, the sun etc... But the DNA shows otherwise... When Dna of Greeks is studied Greece is divided in small parcels east,west, Center, south, islands, north, Thesalia etc.. as it was Germany. Why is the division done you think? To hide the fact that genetically Greeks Macedonians are Bulgarians, Thesalians are Albanians, Cretans are Middle Eastern etc.. In other words genetically Greeks are not a nation but a collection of local populations. Had Greeks been a nation genetically speaking their haplogroups would have been pronounced the way Albanians are!
A. Papadimitriou
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You seem to care more about what Greeks are than the Greeks themselves. Find something else to do.
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Hungarians absorbed a lot of Slavs who lived in the Carpathian basin, it is no surprise.
Romania who was a crossroad for many invaders, the same thing happened there.
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