I2a-Din came to the Balkans and Dinaric Alps with the Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians

Starčevo-K?r?s-Criş

You seem to jump from Early Neolithic straight away in Early Iron Age, like nothing happened in Middle/Late Neolithic, Chalcolithic, Early/Middle Late Bronze Age. Well, a lot of movements happened during that time. We can start with Psenicevo-Babadag (E-V13) and using reverse logic we can deduce these group of people were part of Carpatho-Danubian Urnfield descended people. If E-V13 was in inner Balkans, then the most probable candidate is the Northern hemisphere of Bubanj-Hum Early Bronze Age which covered mostly modern-day Serbia.

I wouldn't exclude a minority presence in the Starčevo-K?r?s-Criş cultural block. That would make sense from a variety of perspectives, including the fact that it settled the Upper Tisza-Northern Carpathian zone. A minority presence and survival in the Eastern part of the distribution is thinkable.
 
I wouldn't exclude a minority presence in the Starčevo-K�r�s-Criş cultural block. That would make sense from a variety of perspectives, including the fact that it settled the Upper Tisza-Northern Carpathian zone. A minority presence and survival in the Eastern part of the distribution is thinkable.

An achievement of the Gava culture was
its breaching of the lower Danube-Stara Planina barrier, and the
influence of its bossed and channelled pottery spread southwards to affect
the Chatalka and the Pshenichevo cultures of the Thracian Plain, the
Babadag of the West Pontic coastline and the Megalithic of the eastern
Rhodope and Strand j a hills. 48

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...an-case/page18?p=643541&viewfull=1#post643541


A very direct conclusion on why the Kapitan Andreevo (Svilengrad samples, part of Psenicevo-Babadag Cultural Complex) E-V13 are descended from Gava/Carpathian Urnfielders, or in wider sende known as Channeled/Kanellure.

If E-V13 is to be found in Iron Age Albania or Greece then its origin should be well known. It wasn't Western Balkans for sure since heavy E-V13 ancient samples lack both J2b2-L283 and R1b-Z2103 and vice-versa.

article_prehistoric-pottery_1-1024x918.jpg
 
This topic is about i2a-din not v13. The proto slavs (r1a) picked up i2a when moving through central europe but who were these i2a previously? Can it be linked to dacians or celts?
 
We are mixed with Albanians and Vlachs and that's why we are different.
Not really, what business have bosnians or croatians to mix with proto albanians or vlachs?? South slavs look different because they mixed with paleo southeuropean people - some of these were the ancestors of proto albanians but not albanians regionally

We already know that e-v13 is mostly a paleo south european line and same case for r1b z2103, j2b l283 is a bit more confusing as it seems to be a minor lineage and same case for j2a outside of greece. However these are not quite enough to make south slavs look different to other slavs who are mostly 50%+ r1a. I think the main reason lies with i2a which they picked up in central/south europe early on and i would assume it is likely a dacian line but other tribes cannot be ruled out yet until we
find ancient dna. E-v13 has already been impossible to find from BC so far and a similar case with i2a - in my opinion these 2 lineages along with others were constantly cremating until the romans came along and changed their culture
 
Not really, what business have bosnians or croatians to mix with proto albanians or vlachs?? South slavs look different because they mixed with paleo southeuropean people - some of these were the ancestors of proto albanians but not albanians regionally

We already know that e-v13 is mostly a paleo south european line and same case for r1b z2103, j2b l283 is a bit more confusing as it seems to be a minor lineage and same case for j2a outside of greece. However these are not quite enough to make south slavs look different to other slavs who are mostly 50%+ r1a. I think the main reason lies with i2a which they picked up in central/south europe early on and i would assume it is likely a dacian line but other tribes cannot be ruled out yet until we
find ancient dna. E-v13 has already been impossible to find from BC so far and a similar case with i2a - in my opinion these 2 lineages along with others were constantly cremating until the romans came along and changed their culture
So, you're still confused on what J2b is, and J2a, but you think i2a might be a Dacian lineage? It hasn't even been found in the Balkans during Pre-Roman times, and was proven to have arrived into the Balkans from north-east of the Carpathian region around 1500 years ago. The clades have TMRCAs that are too young to be Dacian or Paleo-Balkan.

To be real with you, I'm not convinced that you are Albanian, because you think J2b2 is Celtic/Italic/unknown, even though the evidence right now are in favor of Illyrian origins, and because you think I2 could be Dacian. If you truly are Albanian, you need to realize how destructive it is to say, that i2a, which most South Slavs belong to, could be Dacian (when there is zero to little proof of this possibility), in the same breath as saying you are unsure what J2b2 is, even though it was found in Proto-Illyrian lands, in which the highest frequency are in Northern Albanians from the mountains..

It's beyond me how you are confused with J2b2 being Paleo-Balkan, but have a 'hunch' that i2a could be Paleo-Balkan..
 
When the Slavs invaded the Balkans, they met 4 different groups

1. Partly Romanized Paleo-Balkan people (some would become ancestors of Albanians)
2. Fully Romanized Paleo-Balkan people (some would become ancestors of Vlachs/Aromanians/Romanians)
3. Greeks
4. Romans

In places like Herzegovina, Montenegro, Kosova, N. Macedonia, & Southern Serbia, there used to be Paleo-Balkan people prior to the Slavs invading

The plague of Justinian killed a lot of people, weakened the frontier by the Danube, which allowed Slavs to make their advance

The relationship between Slavs, Vlachs, and Albanians goes back to the Middle Ages. During the time of Stefan Dusan, he recorded 'Albanian/Vlach' names in a church document, in today's Southern Serbia. It was also noted that he considered the shepherds of the region (Vlachs, Albanians) to be second-class citizens, so there is no doubt that Albanians and Vlachs were among the Slavs

The origin of some of the oldest Montenegrin tribes, are disputed as either having Albanian or Vlach origin, with Albanians in favor of Albanian origin, and Serbs/Montenegrins in favor of Vlach origin. For example, the Kuci and Piperi, to name a few

Albanians and Bosnians have had relations too, the Albanians living in the north in Kosova/Montenegro, mingled with Bosnians from Sanxhak to Herzegovina. So did the Vlachs that were there too. Albanians on the coasts of Croatia, mixed with Croatians too. There were Albanian settlements on the coasts of Croatia from 400+ years ago, during Ottoman times, possibly even before

There are DNA projects for Montenegro and Sanxhak that I've read about on Slavic fora, IIRC about 25-35% of them are E-V13, about 10% R1b. Most of them belonging to Albanian clades

The history of Albanians, Vlachs/Romanians, and South Slavs were definitely intertwined in the Middle Ages, with all groups influencing each other's culture, language, and genes
 
It would be great if some moderator would close this thread as it is just a nationalistic playground for a lost cause. I2a-Y3120 spread with the Slavic invasions in the early middle ages and played an important role in the formation of the Proto-Slavic ethnogenesis.
There are many up to date papers on I2a-Y3120 or in other words I2a-Slav and its non existence in the ancient Balkans be it pre-Roman or Roman related.

 
So, you're still confused on what J2b is, and J2a, but you think i2a might be a Dacian lineage? It hasn't even been found in the Balkans during Pre-Roman times, and was proven to have arrived into the Balkans from north-east of the Carpathian region around 1500 years ago. The clades have TMRCAs that are too young to be Dacian or Paleo-Balkan.
To be real with you, I'm not convinced that you are Albanian, because you think J2b2 is Celtic/Italic/unknown, even though the evidence right now are in favor of Illyrian origins, and because you think I2 could be Dacian. If you truly are Albanian, you need to realize how destructive it is to say, that i2a, which most South Slavs belong to, could be Dacian (when there is zero to little proof of this possibility), in the same breath as saying you are unsure what J2b2 is, even though it was found in Proto-Illyrian lands, in which the highest frequency are in Northern Albanians from the mountains..
It's beyond me how you are confused with J2b2 being Paleo-Balkan, but have a 'hunch' that i2a could be Paleo-Balkan..
I know what j2b l283 is and we still await samples from ancient albania/kosovo/montenegro to find out what people from our actual land carried instead of people hundred miles away in croatia. Croatia is not south europe so why do you expect me to mention it?

Where was it proven to travel 1500 years ago, its 2300 years ago on yfull. I2a-din hasnt been found in pre roman south europe just like v13 hasn't so what do you make of v13? Paleo south european people were cremating until the romans changed their culture and then we get v13 + i2a-din showing up

What is destructive about suggesting i2a-din being potentially dacian? If you look at the region they covered it correlates with modern distribution of i2a-din apart from the push west in more recent times -

"Dacians were the ancient Indo-European inhabitants of the cultural region of Dacia, located in the area near the Carpathian Mountains and west of the Black Sea. They are often considered a subgroup of the Thracians.[4] This area includes mainly the present-day countries of Romania and Moldova, as well as parts of Ukraine,[5] Eastern Serbia, Northern Bulgaria, Slovakia,[6] Hungary and Southern Poland.[5]"

Anyway, you need to look at tosk and especially arbereshe results - not just ghegs when studying albanian y dna. J2b l283 doesnt have a universal spread amongst albanians, i imagine it has multiplied in certain regions due to founder effects because it is an insignificant line amongst majority of south europeans
 
It would be great if some moderator would close this thread as it is just a nationalistic playground for a lost cause. I2a-Y3120 spread with the Slavic invasions in the early middle ages and played an important role in the formation of the Proto-Slavic ethnogenesis.
There are many up to date papers on I2a-Y3120 or in other words I2a-Slav and its non existence in the ancient Balkans be it pre-Roman or Roman related.
According to you, one of the newest tribes to get into europe from the EAST, slavs (mostly r1a) somehow managed to restore the original european hunter gatherer line to europe with a frequency of 30%+ in places like bosnia? Why is i2a so low in russia compared to r1a? Why is it a major line in south slavs but not other slavs?
 
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So, you're still confused on what J2b is, and J2a, but you think i2a might be a Dacian lineage? It hasn't even been found in the Balkans during Pre-Roman times, and was proven to have arrived into the Balkans from north-east of the Carpathian region around 1500 years ago. The clades have TMRCAs that are too young to be Dacian or Paleo-Balkan.

To be real with you, I'm not convinced that you are Albanian, because you think J2b2 is Celtic/Italic/unknown, even though the evidence right now are in favor of Illyrian origins, and because you think I2 could be Dacian. If you truly are Albanian, you need to realize how destructive it is to say, that i2a, which most South Slavs belong to, could be Dacian (when there is zero to little proof of this possibility), in the same breath as saying you are unsure what J2b2 is, even though it was found in Proto-Illyrian lands, in which the highest frequency are in Northern Albanians from the mountains..

It's beyond me how you are confused with J2b2 being Paleo-Balkan, but have a 'hunch' that i2a could be Paleo-Balkan..


https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...ans-Full-paper?p=629274&viewfull=1#post629274


there is ancient I2a found in croata
 
According to you, one of the newest tribes to get into europe from the EAST, slavs (mostly r1a) somehow managed to restore the original european hunter gatherer line to europe with a frequency of 30%+ in places like bosnia? Why is i2a so low in russia compared to r1a? Why is it a major line in south slavs but not other slavs?

Because it just is.
 
You are off topic the thread is about Slavic I2a-Y3120 and not one neolithic basal I2a2 sample from Potocari. These are completely different haplogroups.

Thanks to your childish bickering with ShpataeMadhe, the Albanian Y-DNA thread on anthro was permanently closed. That ban extends to any new threads on the same topic as well.
 
It would be great if some moderator would close this thread as it is just a nationalistic playground for a lost cause. I2a-Y3120 spread with the Slavic invasions in the early middle ages and played an important role in the formation of the Proto-Slavic ethnogenesis.
There are many up to date papers on I2a-Y3120 or in other words I2a-Slav and its non existence in the ancient Balkans be it pre-Roman or Roman related.


The same way you had the Albanian Y-DNA thread on anthro permanently closed?
 
Absolutely pathetic.
 
According to you, one of the newest tribes to get into europe from the EAST, slavs (mostly r1a) somehow managed to restore the original european hunter gatherer line to europe with a frequency of 30%+ in places like bosnia? Why is i2a so low in russia compared to r1a? Why is it a major line in south slavs but not other slavs?

Come on man you know better. And you know why. It's mostly due to founder effects and bottlenecks. The highest microsatelite diversity of I-Y3120 is Ukraine/Poland/Belarus.

And it's 2200ybp tmrca to one man. Not 2300. Most of Y3120 in South Slavs are due to founder effects and bottlenecks where R1a remained more dominant in West and East Slavs.

Also it's not non-existant. There's some 10-20% I-Y3120 in East Slavs. Higher than R-M458 got instance which is still mostly expanding with Slavs.

There's more founder effects in R1a among Albanians and still none in Y3120. One would expect if it was Dacian, there would be more Y3120 founder effects in Albanians given the time preceding the Slavs, and proximity to Proto-Albanians.

Assuming Slavs were only R1a is foolish. They weren't inbred.

Also, we actually have non-Slavic R1a in La Tene and no Y3120 outside of medieval Slavic samples.
 
Come on man you know better. And you know why. It's mostly due to founder effects and bottlenecks. The highest microsatelite diversity of I-Y3120 is Ukraine/Poland/Belarus.
And it's 2200ybp tmrca to one man. Not 2300. Most of Y3120 in South Slavs are due to founder effects and bottlenecks where R1a remained more dominant in West and East Slavs.
Also it's not non-existant. There's some 10-20% I-Y3120 in East Slavs. Higher than R-M458 got instance which is still mostly expanding with Slavs.
There's more founder effects in R1a among Albanians and still none in Y3120. One would expect if it was Dacian, there would be more Y3120 founder effects in Albanians given the time preceding the Slavs, and proximity to Proto-Albanians.
Assuming Slavs were only R1a is foolish. They weren't inbred.
Also, we actually have non-Slavic R1a in La Tene and no Y3120 outside of medieval Slavic samples.

In case you arent aware, ukraine and south poland were part of the dacian world. Some i2a-din tmrca in south europe precedes the slavic expansion by hundreds of years

Maybe it isnt dacian, it could be celtic, it could be ostrogothic, all possibilies remain until we get more ancient dna to confirm and so far just like v-13 it has been hard to come by possibly due to cremation. So, what do you think is dacian y dna or did they just dissapear into thin air?

What you need to understand is i2a is the original marker of europeans and has been in europe for 20,000+ years so it makes little sense for it to all of a sudden expand in europe with late arrivals from the east (slavs) where i2 has very little history

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...chromosome-lineages-in-Europe-Each-circle.png
 

However these are not quite enough to make south slavs look different to other slavs who are mostly 50%+ r1a.

Bosnian Serbs have E1b as the second haplotype in the population, there are Serbs, Montenegrins, etc. I guess we have something indigenous based on that. There is also the Balkan R1b as well as J2 which exists in the southern Slavs.


Not really, what business have bosnians or croatians to mix with proto albanians or vlachs??

Where I said that "bosnians or croatians mix with proto albanians"? Please quote. Also how do you mean "what business have bosnians or croatians with Vlachs or Albanians"?

Are you familiar with our history as well as with the migrations of Vlachs in which there may be and Albanians towards Croatia, Bosnia etc?
 
The same way you had the Albanian Y-DNA thread on anthro permanently closed?

Crazy how "Mr. Holier than thou" Mount can get a really important thread banned on that place.
 

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