I2a-Din came to the Balkans and Dinaric Alps with the Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians

[hrvat22]

Wonomyro

Do you know that many of them had Croatian ancestry only 2-3 generations back? (Check their surnames...)

I2a2 'Dinaric-S' (I-CTS10228>S20602/YP196 probably S17250+ and PH908+) we recommend Z16983 or A5913 or Big Y test
Trento Giorgio Trento 1891-1946 Umago Croatia Italy

There are more Italians under Dinaric-S and under Dinaric-N.

 

[Sile]

First, we don't know if the link provided by you is Albanian or not.
Second, this "My Albanian studies" sounds ridiculous, because all these so-called studies are just a collection of pages from Wikipedia, or better from the Anonymous of Wikipedia. Can you show me a study in the link provided by you that it's not just a copy paste from Wikipedia but it's a personal contribution of the person/s behind this blog?
And third, of course we Albanians claim links with Dardanians, Epirotes and other Illyrian tribes. Some toponyms, names, etc, are preserved by Albanians from antiquity in our days. For example, the name of the most famous Dardani King, Bardhyl or the name of Pirro of Epir, the name of the Illyrian Queen Teuta in the Albanian modern name Tefta, etc, continued to be used without interruption.

You can deflect all you like about anything, but in the end we know
1 - The romans knew nothing of or wrote of any Albanians in modern Albania, Kosovo or Montenegro until 150AD.
2 - The Illyrians are noted in historical documents in the eastern alps as far back as 1400BC and not noted in Dalmatia before 600BC and not noted anywhere near Albania until 400BC
So , in the end the Albanians are assuming an ancient race to have some history for themselves. In the end you could not be in Albania in ancient times because that was only Greek-Corinthians or Epirote from before 700BC. Albanians cannot claim Illyrian because they did not arrive anywhere near Albania until the ancient macedonians noted them in 400BC . It leaves only 3 possibilities -
1 - a migration from somewhere after the Romans seized all of modern Albania and Macedonia in 138BC
2 - Albanians where only Dardanians and renamed themselves which is why the Albanian populace has always been small
3 - Albanians are a thracian tribe that split off from the thracian Moesian tribes after the celtic invasion of modern Serbia.

 

[hrvat22]

Sile

The Illyrians are noted in historical documents in the eastern alps as far back as 1400BC

Which haplotypes from there come to Balkans?

Albanians cannot claim Illyrian because they did not arrive anywhere near Albania until the ancient macedonians noted them in 400BC

Which haplotypes prove this?

a migration from somewhere after the Romans seized all of modern Albania and Macedonia in 138BC

Which haplotypes prove this?

Albanians are a thracian tribe that split off from the thracian Moesian tribes after the celtic invasion of modern Serbia.

Which haplotypes prove this?

In the end you could not be in Albania in ancient times because that was only Greek-Corinthians or Epirote from before 700BC.

Which haplotypes prove this?


You just love to talk, talk, talk.

 

[Sile]

Which haplotypes from there come to Balkans?
Which haplotypes prove this?
Which haplotypes prove this?
Which haplotypes prove this?
Which haplotypes prove this?
You just love to talk, talk, talk.

Compiling data samples from many papers I can conclude with my guess would be something like (see below ) ........the R1a at 15% might be a bit high but having 10% in pre-roman friuli ( early iron-age ) should be fine.
I-M253 25%
R-U106 25%
R-M417 15%
J2-M241 9%
E-M78 7%
G- 5%
T-M70 4%
L- 2%
I-S23 2%
J1-M267 2%



Aquileia, la Dalmazia e l'Illirico
Centro di antichità altoadriatiche, Casa Bertoli, Aquileia

Format Book Published
Udine : Tip. Chiandetti, 1985.
Language Italian

 

[hrvat22]

Sile

I am interested in concrete branches of concrete haplotypes that prove migration from your claim i.e specific persons with those haplogroups from public database.

When I prove arrival of Croats to Balkans then I attach genetics and historical records that prove that arrival (what we have now).

The Illyrians are noted in historical documents in the eastern alps as far back as 1400BC
Which haplotypes from there come to Balkans?

Eastern alps haplotypes and Balkans haplotypes. Migration from point A to point B

Do you understand?

 

[Wonomyro]

.......the R1a at 15% might be a bit high but having 10% in pre-roman friuli ( early iron-age ) should be fine.

Would you be so kind to give us a link to the paper. Or maybe just a table with haplogroup description. Thanks!

 

[Miroslav]

Evidence Zarubintsy culture is Bastarnatian is very important, and in previous pages there is a lot about Bastarnae, their origin and movements, I don't want repeat.

For example in #1117 is sublimated, who wants to read.

Bastarnae are strong candidate as carriers of I-CTS10228.

There's a lack of evidence, what you wrote about Bastarnae is far-fetched without any proper evidence and argumentation. There's almost anything to catch as meaningful. Considering Bastarnae as strong candidate is banging empty straw, while I-CTS10228 had TMRCA so many centuries ago before the formation of the Bastarnae that relating them i.e. using I-CTS10228 instead some other more downward and contemporary SNP branch is intentionally misleading. Trash.

 

[LABERIA]

You can read this post here.

 

[Angela]

Please remove all posts which do not concern the movements of ancient peoples, i.e. the subject of the original post. You may repost them on the Balkanian Disagreements thread. I will wait until 8Pm EST. At that point, I will go back at least a couple of pages and remove all such posts still remaining.

Once again, stay on topic.

Anyone who continues to post off-topic material will receive an infraction.

 

[Bachus]

In South Serbia the situation was a little bit different from what can you imagine.

On which situation you think?

 

[Wonomyro]

Please remove all posts which do not concern the movements of ancient peoples, i.e. the subject of the original post. You may repost them on the Balkanian Disagreements thread. I will wait until 8Pm EST. At that point, I will go back at least a couple of pages and remove all such posts still remaining.

Once again, stay on topic.

Anyone who continues to post off-topic material will receive an infraction.

I agree. Thank you.

However, some of these discussions are part of a multidisciplinary approach, where linguistics, and history may help us to identify ancient ethnicities that were the initial carriers of the haplogroup I2a-Din. I would remind that the I2a haplogroup has a peak in the area where at least two present day nations claim its ancestry. That is the reason why we have a hot debate. I hope that some posts on the linguistic and history which are based on objective sources may help reader to get the clearer picture on the origin of the I2a haplogrop in Dinarides. Limiting ourselves only to genetics we will never be able to answer the question from the thread caption.

Please, keep some of these posts that may seem off topic if you believe that they are useful.

 

[Dumidre]

Back to genetics please...
I2a-DIN and such...
"languages change but blood (genetics) stays"...

 

[Angela]

Well, I hope all of you are very happy now that you got infractions and one of you is banned AGAIN for accumulation of points. I specifically said no more off topic posts. A number of you went on to post about refugees, the start of WW1 and other material irrelevant to the topic and insulting one another to boot.

Are people in the Balkans incapable of following rules or just rules enforced by women? Well, no matter.

I'll now go back and remove all this distracting off topic material.

You have only yourselves to blame.

There is a thread specifically set up for you to beat your nationalistic chests on yet you refuse to use it. Why do you insist on ruining academic threads? Transfer all such discussions there.

 

[Angela]

You can deflect all you like about anything, but in the end we know
1 - The romans knew nothing of or wrote of any Albanians in modern Albania, Kosovo or Montenegro until 150AD.
2 - The Illyrians are noted in historical documents in the eastern alps as far back as 1400BC and not noted in Dalmatia before 600BC and not noted anywhere near Albania until 400BC
So , in the end the Albanians are assuming an ancient race to have some history for themselves. In the end you could not be in Albania in ancient times because that was only Greek-Corinthians or Epirote from before 700BC. Albanians cannot claim Illyrian because they did not arrive anywhere near Albania until the ancient macedonians noted them in 400BC . It leaves only 3 possibilities -
1 - a migration from somewhere after the Romans seized all of modern Albania and Macedonia in 138BC
2 - Albanians where only Dardanians and renamed themselves which is why the Albanian populace has always been small
3 - Albanians are a thracian tribe that split off from the thracian Moesian tribes after the celtic invasion of modern Serbia.

You make another such disparaging comment against any ethnic group whatsoever and you'll get another infraction. Are you ready for another ban for accumulation of points?

 

[Garrick]

It is unbelievable - how many times I said do not open the pandora's box, which itself is not related to the topic, but Serbs and Croats with Albanian friend, a very Balkan trio, cannot stop writing about they do not know i.e. think they do yet are recycling one and the same chauvinistic "evidence" and "reasoning" they were "educated" on the street and demagogues. I am calling the moderators to stop them before this becomes another ruined forum thread.

I agree with you, and if someone like bickering there is thread "Balkan disagreement".

Yes we don't agree about Dr Francesco Borri, and some other things but it is normal that people have opposite views in intellectual discussion.

I remember very useful discussion with you about main thing in this thread, I-CTS10228, there are four theories about this, if it is Thracian, German, Slavic or Illyrian origin.

We didn't agree but this discussion was very useful. If Bastarnae (and Scirii) were carriers of I-CTS10228 this would be German theory.

Although some scholars link Bastarnae with Celts, and for some scholars Bastarnae are only Bastarnae because they were big (numerous) people, however Bastarnae had German influence. It can be that Mesolitic survivors I-CTS10228 carriers mixed with Germans, I1 carriers, before migration toward Dacian and Sarmatian border areas.

I remember that you told me that more attention give Thracian theory. And you can see posts of member AlGreen #1122 who thinks I-CTS10228 is Thracian.

Really Thracian theory is very interesting. If tomorrow someone prove that Bastarnae theory is not plausible only possibility is that Thracian theory is plausible. No doubt that I-CTS10228 was in genetic fund of Thracians before Slavs. But it can be because of mixed Bastarnae with Thracians during long period.

 

[Wonomyro]

this is empty

 

[Wonomyro]

..........

 

[davef]

^^ take it outside buddy
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30592-Balkanian-disagreements/page41?p=523781#post523781

 

[Garrick]

Do you know that the whole present day Croatia was once a part of Roman Empire? There were numerous Roman colonies in Pannonia and Dalmatia. Also in Serbia (Moesia) and Bosnia (still Dalmatia). Where is now their admixture? Do you think that these Italians who lived in the corner of Istria have anything to do with the Roman colonists during the Roman period in Panonnia and Dalmatia. Let’s imagine that the Italian refugees are still there. What would that change in our conclusion? The Italian admixture on the Maciamo’s map would be few percent bigger for all Croatia, but in that case we would know that this is due to numerous Italian presence in Istria. In case that these few municipalities with Italian majority remained in Italy, Maciamo’s map of Croatia would look the same as now because these Italians would not affect Croatian statistics. Do you understand what you're talking about? The Italian admixture is not a number of Italian humans vs. number of Croatian humans in the 20th century. It is a percentage in every tested Croat and in every tested Italian in Croatia taken together. It takes centuries for that. People get married. Genes of ancient Romans would not all escape to Istria! Something would obviously remain in Croatian people who stayed in Croatia. Please compare the map of Roman Empire with the map of Italian admixture. You will notice that the almost whole territory of the former Empire is covered with Italian-like admixture, except on the Slavic countries across the Adriatic. Do you think it is only because Yugoslav partisans expelled (part of) Italians from Istria? What is about Serbia then? Where are the Italians from Serbia that we have such small percentage of the Italian admixture there? (Should I ask instead where are 500,000 Germans from Serbia now?) Do you believe that a higher percentage of Italian admixture in Spain exists because they expelled less Italians during WWII? Did you understand all that?

I could explain with a lot of data during centuries about Italians in Dalmatia, including islands, not only Italians in Istria, or speakers of some kind of Italo-Western languages during centuries. And yes Maciamo's picture would be different. But I think it is better that Italians or anything else explain, for many reasons, only my intention was reaction on the picture and nothing more.

 

[Wonomyro]

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