R1b-U152 L2*

Where did R1b-U152 L2* in the Balkans originate from?


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U152 and Subclades Phylogenetic Tree by Richard Rocca *Updated October 2014*


FTDNA_U152_Project_Tree.png
 

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My results for CTS 9490 came back negative! Does that give me an asterisk for Z150*?

Also, here is a reply I posted on another forum which is somewhat flawed as I was responding to a thread which was asking where Z49 originated. It does seem as though my Z150 could be Ionian Greek!

The speculation is based upon my high number of matches to these studies:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...4/?tool=pubmed

The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean

Roy King concurs:

Roy J King Jr
To
Me
Apr 27, 2013

Dear Curtis,
Yes, I think you could definitely have paternal ancestry from the Phocaean Greeks in Massalia. There was a huge trade between the Greeks of Massalia and the surrounding Celto-Ligurians of Southern France with ample evidence of Greek wine amphora all across the region. As in my paper, we see a male mediated immigration with the likely scenario of Greek males marrying local women. This pattern is evident in some of the founding myths of Massalia as well. I haven't looked at M269 (mostly V13 and in our subsequent G paper, L13/M529), but clearly M269/U152 lineages could have also traversed the Mediterranean with the Greek colonists.
Hope this is helpful and thanks for the additional insights!
Best,


GD of 0 ------9
GD of 1 ------9
GD of 2 ------4
GD of 3 ------3
GD of 4 ------5

Out of 72 subjects of Ionian Greek grandparents I match 30 of them. 9 at a genetic distance of 0. This comparison uses only 6 markers however. That is what make it speculative!

Regards,
Curtis
 
My results for CTS 9490 came back negative! Does that give me an asterisk for Z150*?


Regards,
Curtis

an asterick means , at this point in time there is no more subclades fro you

In human genetics, * is used to denote that someone is a member of a haplogroup and not any of its subclades

An asterick has never meant in genetics ......"and everything after "
 
"an asterick means , at this point in time there is no more subclades fro you"


Of course that is what it means!


"In human genetics, * is used to denote that someone is a member of a haplogroup and not any of its subclades"

Of course as well!


"An asterick has never meant in genetics ......"and everything after ""


Where on earth did you ever come up with that notion??
 
My results for CTS 9490 came back negative! Does that give me an asterisk for Z150*?

Also, here is a reply I posted on another forum which is somewhat flawed as I was responding to a thread which was asking where Z49 originated. It does seem as though my Z150 could be Ionian Greek!

The speculation is based upon my high number of matches to these studies:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...4/?tool=pubmed

The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean

Roy King concurs:

Roy J King Jr
To
Me
Apr 27, 2013

Dear Curtis,
Yes, I think you could definitely have paternal ancestry from the Phocaean Greeks in Massalia. There was a huge trade between the Greeks of Massalia and the surrounding Celto-Ligurians of Southern France with ample evidence of Greek wine amphora all across the region. As in my paper, we see a male mediated immigration with the likely scenario of Greek males marrying local women. This pattern is evident in some of the founding myths of Massalia as well. I haven't looked at M269 (mostly V13 and in our subsequent G paper, L13/M529), but clearly M269/U152 lineages could have also traversed the Mediterranean with the Greek colonists.
Hope this is helpful and thanks for the additional insights!
Best,


GD of 0 ------9
GD of 1 ------9
GD of 2 ------4
GD of 3 ------3
GD of 4 ------5

Out of 72 subjects of Ionian Greek grandparents I match 30 of them. 9 at a genetic distance of 0. This comparison uses only 6 markers however. That is what make it speculative!

Regards,
Curtis

Hi Curtis, it is just a matter of time before your particular subclade of Z150 becomes apparent. All you need is somebody to do a Big Y or Full Genomes who matches one of your private SNPs. The Greek connection is very possible ... not sure I would want to bet money on it just yet though. It would be great if more U152's could get tested ... there are many private SNPs that are new public-styled subclades just waiting to be discovered. The L21 team are ahead of us, they have done some good work threading the needle ... they have gone several steps further ... Z49 is going to be interesting!
 
Hi Curtis, it is just a matter of time before your particular subclade of Z150 becomes apparent. All you need is somebody to do a Big Y or Full Genomes who matches one of your private SNPs. The Greek connection is very possible ... not sure I would want to bet money on it just yet though. It would be great if more U152's could get tested ... there are many private SNPs that are new public-styled subclades just waiting to be discovered. The L21 team are ahead of us, they have done some good work threading the needle ... they have gone several steps further ... Z49 is going to be interesting!

Thanks for replying!

The answers for all of us seem so close, yet they are probably so far away. I just hope we figure these origins out during my lifetime!

Curtis
 
FYI for the Z150 folks, SNP FGC12382 is now available at YSEQ.net. I tried to include the direct link but I don't' have enough posts yet.


BTW, this SNP is on my branch of Z150/Z12222.
 
Is this the link? btw I tested for CTS9490 and it was negative.

Welcome to eupedia Mark!

Curtis
That's the one.
I've been on Eupedia for a while...just don't post much. But with this post I now have enough to post links.

Curtis, I hope you do the YSEQ SNP test so we can find out if you are on my branch.
 
I have just learned that my father is R-Z150. This is all very new to us.
We can trace our direct male ancestor to Barlac, Gascogne, France in 1720. I can not find it on any current maps, but this is what he stated in his will.
 
That's the one.
I've been on Eupedia for a while...just don't post much. But with this post I now have enough to post links.

Curtis, I hope you do the YSEQ SNP test so we can find out if you are on my branch.

lol. I thought that is what you were thinking! I will send my order in soon.

Curtis
 
French ancestors

I have just learned that my father is R-Z150. This is all very new to us.
We can trace our direct male ancestor to Barlac, Gascogne, France in 1720. I can not find it on any current maps, but this is what he stated in his will.

Greetings Baham and welcome to this forum!

I am interested in seeing your Father's STR results. Have you uploaded them to ysearch.org? It is a free site and a great place to do family genetic genealogy research.

Also the best group you can join is the FTDNA group: R-U152 and Subclades Research Project. Here is the url:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-U152/default.aspx?section=ycolorized

Regards,
Curtis
 
Thank you so much, Curtis.
I will see if I can give you those results, after I get permission.
Like I said, this is all new. Ysearch.org sounds interesting, and so does that FTDNA group.

Thanks again,
Denyse
 
Thanks to next-generation sequencing technology we now have 8 main branches stemming from U152 and 18 branches from L2. If you are U152 please purchase an NGS test (Big Y, Full Genomes) and help us build on this!

Two levels downstream from U152
U152 Org Chart 14 Dec 14v2.jpg

Two levels downstream from L2
L2 Org Chart-13-dec-14.jpg

Credit goes to Richard Rocca.
 
Thanks to next-generation sequencing technology we now have 8 main branches stemming from U152 and 18 branches from L2. If you are U152 please purchase an NGS test (Big Y, Full Genomes) and help us build on this!

Two levels downstream from U152
View attachment 6952

Two levels downstream from L2
View attachment 6953

Credit goes to Richard Rocca.

I just ordered Big Y!! Anyone know how long it takes to get the results?

Product
Date
Batch
Big Y
12/18/2014Batched 601

12/17/2014Ordered 601

Pending
Completed

601


 
I just ordered Big Y!! Anyone know how long it takes to get the results?

Product
DateBatch
Big Y
12/18/2014Batched601
12/17/2014Ordered601
PendingCompleted 601


Hi Curtis, from experience I can tell you that the Big Y takes a while ... at least 3 months. The advantage of testing (Big Y) with FTDNA is their matching program. If anybody has one of your private SNPs it will show up and you will see it. Good luck!
 
Lack of L2 in Spain could be an important research project

Hi
While I like the ideas behind what has been said.
I do have some concern about what appears to be a real problem with Spain.
After the Moors were driven out of Spain they drove out any Jews who would not convert to Catholicism. Many of those Jews went into France and up the West coast of France. If and it is a broad "if" these people were L2 this could have two results. One the lack of L2 in Spain today (would need to find Jewish skeletons in Spain and do DNA to prove this) Two this could have caused the larger than expected level of L2 in France as a lot of the Jews became Huguenots and there seems to be a large number of L2's in the old Huguenot areas.
I may be wrong but i sure would love to have the money to carry out the DNA testing and then follow up with how many of theHuguenots who left France for England, Holland, Belgium were L2
A lot of these Jews were also traders who spread themselves along trade routes through Europe and Great Britain.
I may be wrong but sometimes looking for Why something is not there can be as rewarding than looking for what is there now
Regards
Harry
 
Hi
While I like the ideas behind what has been said.
I do have some concern about what appears to be a real problem with Spain.
After the Moors were driven out of Spain they drove out any Jews who would not convert to Catholicism. Many of those Jews went into France and up the West coast of France. If and it is a broad "if" these people were L2 this could have two results. One the lack of L2 in Spain today (would need to find Jewish skeletons in Spain and do DNA to prove this) Two this could have caused the larger than expected level of L2 in France as a lot of the Jews became Huguenots and there seems to be a large number of L2's in the old Huguenot areas.
I may be wrong but i sure would love to have the money to carry out the DNA testing and then follow up with how many of theHuguenots who left France for England, Holland, Belgium were L2
A lot of these Jews were also traders who spread themselves along trade routes through Europe and Great Britain.
I may be wrong but sometimes looking for Why something is not there can be as rewarding than looking for what is there now
Regards
Harry
Harry and Liz,

I very much agree with your logic!

Just a suggestion - perhaps you could start a new thread with your ideas as this one addresses the Balkan origins of L2. My L2,Z142,Z49,Z150 paternal ancestors may have taken this route as well as I am seeing some ancient autosomal dna hits along the border of Spain and France and hints of living in the Pyreenes on both the Spanish side as well as the French side. There are some ancient bones found in caves in Spain but not with viable y-DNA results just with autosomal.
 
Dorians - Earliest Source of Italic L2?

.....
The Balkans (Greece, Romania etc.) have a significant amount of R1b-U152 L2* that may or may not belong to either one of these two Roman subclades. If future studies show this to be the case then where did these non-Roman subclades of R1b-U152 L2* originate from?
Please consider this a un-academic hypothesis, and can be thought of as a request to locate public studies that may suggest agreement or refute it.
While Greece has been mentioned several times through the first 3 pages (current tally), no one has posited that L2 came to the Italian peninsula via the Dorians (in spite of Dorianfinder's name). [Irritating that the word Dorian in this text is appearing as an unknown word or misspelled word. Greeks must fight every step of the way.]
The Dorians swept down the west coast of the Balkans and into Greece presumably from point(s) north and east of the juncture of the Balkans and what is now Italy. As I recall, the Dorians are thought of as Italo-Celts, so it is logical that the group that fostered the Greek Dorians had a presence in Italy. From the Dorian waves came the Spartans and the Macedonians - warrior cultures - high in R1b Y DNA. It is clear that the Romans were by culture very different from the Etruscans and other pre-Romans in the peninsula. The Romans were a warrior culture. While they later had professional armies, they were a citizen army not unlike the Spartans, just not as regimented in their society, but perhaps more regimented, if possible, in their warrior state.
Here is the connection to the L2s (this post). I am an L2 from an area in Greece related geographically/historically to the Dorians. (Maternal family - the males, are R1bs, from an area close to Sparta, but I do not know the frequency of L2 among them.)
So, given the frequency map that Angela provided showing a high frequency in the north east of Italy of L2, while it might fit many other scenarios, it certainly fits a 'Dorian-like' pattern of movement, perhaps at the same time. I suppose linguistically, this could mean that the Dorians (forgive me) did not speak Greek but rather another proto-IE, or that the Italo-Dorians lost their Greek tongues in their travails going into the peninsula. Of course language would be a secondary issue at this point.
If supported, then the Dorians spawned the Spartans, Macedonians and Romans - so the bad asses of the ancient world.
 
Last edited:
Please consider this a un-academic hypothesis, and can be thought of as a request to locate public studies that may suggest agreement or refute it.
While Greece has been mentioned several times through the first 3 pages (current tally), no one has posited that L2 came to the Italian peninsula via the Dorians (in spite of Dorianfinder's name). [Irritating that the word Dorian in this text is appearing as an unknown word or misspelled word. Greeks must fight every step of the way.]
The Dorians swept down the west coast of the Balkans and into Greece presumably from point(s) north and east of the juncture of the Balkans and what is now Italy. As I recall, the Dorians are thought of as Italo-Celts, so it is logical that the group that fostered the Greek Dorians had a presence in Italy. From the Dorian waves came the Spartans and the Macedonians - warrior cultures - high in R1b Y DNA. It is clear that the Romans were by culture very different from the Etruscans and other pre-Romans in the peninsula. The Romans were a warrior culture. While they later had professional armies, they were a citizen army not unlike the Spartans, just not as regimented in their society, but perhaps more regimented, if possible, in their warrior state.
Here is the connection to the L2s (this post). I am an L2 from an area in Greece related geographically/historically to the Dorians. (Maternal family - the males, are R1bs, from an area close to Sparta, but I do not know the frequency of L2 among them.)
So, given the frequency map that Angela provided showing a high frequency in the north east of Italy of L2, while it might fit many other scenarios, it certainly fits a 'Dorian-like' pattern of movement, perhaps at the same time. I suppose linguistically, this could mean that the Dorians (forgive me) did not speak Greek but rather another proto-IE, or that the Italo-Dorians lost their Greek tongues in their travails going into the peninsula. Of course language would be a secondary issue at this point.
If supported, then the Dorians spawned the Spartans, Macedonians and Romans - so the bad asses of the ancient world.

I really don't like speculating about yDna lines absent some ancient dna and just going by modern distributions as that has been proven to lead to so many incorrect conclusions.

However, for what it's worth, I'll put in my two cents.

I've certainly read the speculation that perhaps the Dorics were a Celtic group and therefore carried U-152.

I see some problems with that. For one thing, there is very little U-152 in Greece. Most of the R1b in Greece is, to my recollection, of the so-called "Armenian"-Yamnaya variety. If the Dorics carried U-152, there couldn't have been very many of them.

Also, everything I understand about the Indo-European migrations, the yDna lineages connected to them, and the development of the Indo-European languages tells me that U-152 is intimately associated with the proto-Italo-Celtic language group, and that the hot-spot for the speakers of this language group and this yDna was in Central Europe. Greek language speakers are separate.

Therefore, if the Dorics carried U152, I don't see how they could originally have been Greek speakers.
 

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