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Thread: R1b-U152 L2*

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    R1b-U152 L2*

    The study of Sardinian Y-DNA by Francalacci et al. (2013) suggests that subclades of R1b-U152 found in Sardinia have Roman origins as opposed to Italic and Alpine Celtic subclades of R1b-U152.

    Maciamo states, 'All four top level subclades of U152 were found in Sardinia, but in very different proportions from the continent, especially north of the Alps where L2 makes up over two thirds of the lineages.'

    In contrast the following subclades of R1b-U152 were found on Sardinia:
    1. Z192 is the main subclade in Sardinia (58.5% of all U152)
    2. Z56 (10%, half of being Z144+)
    3. L2 (7.8%, exclusively Z49+ and Z347+)
    4. Z36 (5.5%, half of it Z54+)
    The Z49+ or Z347+ mutations seem to suggest Roman subclades of R1b-U152 L2. What about those subclades that do not carry these two mutations?

    The Balkans (Greece, Romania etc.) have a significant amount of R1b-U152 L2* that may or may not belong to either one of these two Roman subclades. If future studies show this to be the case then where did these non-Roman subclades of R1b-U152 L2* originate from?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    The Z49+ or Z347+ mutations seem to suggest Roman subclades of R1b-U152 L2. What about those subclades that do not carry these two mutations?

    The Balkans (Greece, Romania etc.) have a significant amount of R1b-U152 L2* that may or may not belong to either one of these two Roman subclades. If future studies show this to be the case then where did these non-Roman subclades of R1b-U152 L2* originate from?
    Are only L2 and its subclades being considered signs of "Roman" presence because that's the majority of U-152 that appears outside of Italy?

    However, if all of U-152 was present in Italy by the time that Rome was consolidating its power, i.e. was present by the Copper-Bronze Age, then wouldn't all of its subclades have left traces in the Empire? And wouldn't the subclades strongest in the center, like Z36 and Z56, have been part of the mix among the men who served as Roman Legionnaires in the earliest conquests?

    L2 is actually higher as a percentage of the total as one goes north. So, once troops were raised in Gallia Cisalpina, it would definitely appear among them and there might be traces in the places where they served.

    Someone who is tracing his own particular U-152 lineage might want to see which particular legions were stationed in his ancestral area, and then check to see where the legions were originally formed, as that might give some clues?

    FWIW, I think this is a good analysis of U-152 in Italy.
    http://r1b.org/?page_id=242

    Off topic here, but I also think that other y lineages would have left some trace. Most of the Italian peninsula was "Roman" pretty early on.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Are only L2 and its subclades being considered signs of "Roman" presence because that's the majority of U-152 that appears outside of Italy?
    L2 is of particular interest as it's a relatively late marker and descends from R1b-U152 which is considered by many an Italo-Celtic marker. What interests me is the distribution of R1b-U152 L2 subclades that are found at higher frequencies outside major Roman settlements. The U152 subclades project is proving of value in this respect as we can see in this table. France and Germany appear to have higher frequencies of L2 than Italy suggesting that L2 may have something to tell us about the spread of pre-Roman R1b-U152.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    However, if all of U-152 was present in Italy by the time that Rome was consolidating its power
    This would be possible if R1b-U152 originated in Italy which has not been determined yet, in fact most speculate that it originated in the Hallstatt and La Tène cultures. This would explain why we are beginning to find such high frequencies of L2 in regions proximal to non-Italic, Alpine regions connected to the Hallstatt/La Tène culture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    ...the subclades strongest in the center, like Z36 and Z56, have been part of the mix among the men who served as Roman Legionnaires in the earliest conquests?
    Not sure if Z36 or Z56 are strongest in Roman centers but I'm interested in finding out more about your source as I'm looking for info specifically linked to these subclades. The U152 Subclades Project has presently got Switzerland (Z36, 27%) and Iberia (Z56, 33%) with the highest frequencies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    L2 is actually higher as a percentage of the total as one goes north. So, once troops were raised in Gallia Cisalpina, it would definitely appear among them and there might be traces in the places where they served.
    Would be interesting to see the subclade frequencies for these areas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Someone who is tracing his own particular U-152 lineage might want to see which particular legions were stationed in his ancestral area, and then check to see where the legions were originally formed, as that might give some clues?
    This would be a worthwhile exercise, thanks for suggesting it. I plan to do something similar when the subclade frequencies become more readily available.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    FWIW, I think this is a good analysis of U-152 in Italy.
    http://r1b.org/?page_id=242
    The following caught my attention in the link you posted. A large sample of 948 men in Brabant and 643 in Poland were R1b-U152 and more than 2/3 of them were found to be +L2. This contrasts rather nicely with approximately 1/3 for Italy which had a sample of 661 men with R1b-U152.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    Would be interesting to see the subclade frequencies for these areas.
    According to the latest study:

    Boattini et al 2013 -
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0065441

    NW Italy = 32.2% R1b-U152 [18.6% U152 / 12.4% L2 / 1.2 L20] - 161 samples
    NE Italy = 19.2% R1b-U152 [5.5% U152 / 12.3% L2 / 1.4 L20] - 73 samples

    64.0% of U152 in NE Italy is L2
    38.5% of U152 in NW Italy is L2


    Cluster maps from the same study:

    DAPC analysis of STRs variation for the most frequent Y-chromosome haplogroups.
    NWI: North Western Italy; SEI: South Eastern Italy; SAR: Sardinia; IBE: Iberian Peninsula; BAL: Balkan Peninsula; GER: Germany;


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    L2 is of particular interest as it's a relatively late marker and descends from R1b-U152 which is considered by many an Italo-Celtic marker. What interests me is the distribution of R1b-U152 L2 subclades that are found at higher frequencies outside major Roman settlements. The U152 subclades project is proving of value in this respect as we can see in this table. France and Germany appear to have higher frequencies of L2 than Italy suggesting that L2 may have something to tell us about the spread of pre-Roman R1b-U152.



    This would be possible if R1b-U152 originated in Italy which has not been determined yet, in fact most speculate that it originated in the Hallstatt and La Tène cultures. This would explain why we are beginning to find such high frequencies of L2 in regions proximal to non-Italic, Alpine regions connected to the Hallstatt/La Tène culture.



    Not sure if Z36 or Z56 are strongest in Roman centers but I'm interested in finding out more about your source as I'm looking for info specifically linked to these subclades. The U152 Subclades Project has presently got Switzerland (Z36, 27%) and Iberia (Z56, 33%) with the highest frequencies.



    Would be interesting to see the subclade frequencies for these areas.



    This would be a worthwhile exercise, thanks for suggesting it. I plan to do something similar when the subclade frequencies become more readily available.



    The following caught my attention in the link you posted. A large sample of 948 men in Brabant and 643 in Poland were R1b-U152 and more than 2/3 of them were found to be +L2. This contrasts rather nicely with approximately 1/3 for Italy which had a sample of 661 men with R1b-U152.
    I don't know where U-152 originated...I've seen reasoned speculation that puts the first expansion, which has more chance of actually being determined, somewhere in southeast France, northwest Italy, but it could be that it happened in the central Alps perhaps, or even a bit east.

    I have more confidence in the fact that it was most probably already in Italy by the late Copper Age/early Bronze Age.

    IBD analysis like that of Ralph and Coop support this position at least to the extent that there was very little inflow into Italy post 4-500 years B.C., so I think that lets out any significant "Germanic" contribution.

    I'm also unpersuaded that most of it came with the first millennium B.C. so called "Celtic" or "Gallic" migrations, as it shows up far too frequently in areas that never experienced those migrations. Although, of course, modern distributions are not ideal for measuring these things, as even in Italy, we have had gene flow between neighboring regions, I don't think that would be enough to account for the high levels into the center and south of Italy. So, unless some contrary evidence should appear, I think it's most likely it was already in place by the Bronze Age.

    At any rate, in 49 B.C., all of Gallia Cisalpina was granted citizenship, and so the men of that whole area would as of that date be required to serve in the legions. Actually, by 58 B.C., Julius Caesar was already recruiting troops from north of the Po to swell his numbers for the invasion of Gaul. Troops had been recruited from South of the Po even before that.

    So, any legions formed in those areas after these dates would most probably have been carrying U-152, no matter when their specific lineage may have arrived in Italy, and could have spread it to whereever the legion was stationed.

    In terms of the kind of analysis of which you're speaking, the difficulty is in determining whether someone's brand of U-152 came from the Romans, or the French, or the Swiss, or the Poles, who also possessed it to some degree. This is less of a problem with the non-L2 branches of U152, because they are rarer among non-Italians, although you can certainly find Z36 in high numbers in France, for example.

    As I said, the presence of certain legions raised in certain areas and then deployed for long periods of time in your ancestral areas might give you more information, but I don't see how you would every really know. Although, to be honest, I didn't think we'd see this kind of progress in detailed y dna analysis.

    As to the Z36 and Z56 versus the L2 numbers in Italy, while it's true that there may be proportionally more L2 in the north and particularly in the northeast than in, say, Tuscany, where the split is more even, in Brescia, for example, U152* is 62% of the total U-152. And as soon as you decide that it is an east/west split, with the east dominated by L2 and the west by U152XL2, you see that the highest L2(not L20) is in La Spezia on the west coast (25%) and Treviso (24.2%) on the east coast. My point is that there aren't simple, immutable divisions here. Someone's Z36 could come from Tuscany or Liguria or Lombardia or the Veneto although certain areas might have a higher probablitliy.

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    What about latest markers for L2, one is Z49 and the other is Z367. ?

    TMRCA states for L2+ could be born in present Belgium or Western Germany. Earlier it was stated eastern France and Corsica.
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    What about latest markers for L2, one is Z49 and the other is Z367. ?

    TMRCA states for L2+ could be born in present Belgium or Western Germany. Earlier it was stated eastern France and Corsica.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    And as soon as you decide that it is an east/west split, with the east dominated by L2 and the west by U152XL2, you see that the highest L2(not L20) is in La Spezia on the west coast (25%) and Treviso (24.2%) on the east coast. My point is that there aren't simple, immutable divisions here.
    Looking to more recent times the Balkans may have received an injection of R1b-U152 subclades during the Latin Empire of Constantinople and Venetian/Genoan rule. In the case of Venice the 24% L2 found in Treviso could be a possible source or maybe not. After-all if we expect there to have been some form of exodus then maybe we should be looking for a source of L2 that does not have the highest frequency, perhaps less than.

    Before and after the Latin Empire of Constantinople there were Normans and Angevins establishing themselves throughout the Eastern Mediterranean. Research and commercial testing of L2 subclades should shed more light on whether areas such as Maine-et-Loire (Anjou), Brabant (Belgium/Wallonia) or Brittany (Normandy) have a preponderance of certain L2 markers.

    Current commercial testing by FTDNA suggests that Z49 levels are highest in Switzerland whereas France is leading in terms of Z367. By contrast, Italy is lagging behind Switzerland, France, Germany, Scandinavia and Iberia. Maybe Italy experienced a form of 'brain-drain' before certain L2 subclades had the opportunity to establish themselves properly?

    L2 (as a percentage of U152+ individuals) is currently at significantly higher levels in France (76%), Belgium-Luxemburg (73%) and Scandinavia (71%), than in Austria (60%), Switzerland (58%), Germany (57%), Eastern Europe (57%) and Italy (55%).

    It's too early to say for sure but there seems to be more to L2 than meets the eye.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    L2 (as a percentage of U152+ individuals) is currently at significantly higher levels in France (76%), Belgium-Luxemburg (73%) and Scandinavia (71%), than in Austria (60%), Switzerland (58%), Germany (57%), Eastern Europe (57%) and Italy (55%).
    It's too early to say for sure but there seems to be more to L2 than meets the eye.
    Exactly;
    And the significance of R1b-U152/L2+ within the total populations should also not be neglected;


    For example;

    Bavaria (218 samples) = 10.0% R1b-U152 [3.6% U152* / 6.4% L2 (L2*/L20)] - Rebala et al 2012
    North Italy (131 samples) = 32.2% R1b-U152 [18.6% U152* / 13.6% L2 (L2*/L20)] - Boattini et al 2013

    63.6% of all U152 in Bavaria is L2 [L2*/L20] / 42.2% of all U152 in North Italy is L2 [L2*/L20]
    The classic (roughly) 1/3 to 2/3 ratio;

    So the significance of U152/L2+ within North Italy is lower than in Bavaria;
    However - the overall significance of U152/L2+ is still higher in North Italy because its 2x more frequent [13.6%] in the total population than in Bavaria [6.4%] total population;


    Another example;

    In Iberia L2+ within U152 is 50% / In Tuscany L2+ within U152 is 28.3%;
    However only 2.9% of Iberia is R1b-U152 [Bekada et al 2013 / 1971 samples] -that would mean (of 50%) only 1.45% of the total Iberian population is U152/L2+; Where as in Tuscany 10.6% of the total population is U152/L2+ [Boattini et al 2013 / 123 samples]

    So U152/L2+ has a far greater significance in the Tuscan population than in the Iberian population because it is 7x more frequent than in Iberia; R1b-U152 (all) in Tuscany = 37.4% - Boattini et al 2013

    Rebala et al 2012
    http://bhusers.upf.edu/dcomas/wp-con...Rebala2013.pdf
    Bekada et al 2013
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%....0056775-Pala1
    Boattini et al 2013
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0065441

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'm also unpersuaded that most of it came with the first millennium B.C. so called "Celtic" or "Gallic" migrations, as it shows up far too frequently in areas that never experienced those migrations. Although, of course, modern distributions are not ideal for measuring these things, as even in Italy, we have had gene flow between neighboring regions, I don't think that would be enough to account for the high levels into the center and south of Italy. So, unless some contrary evidence should appear, I think it's most likely it was already in place by the Bronze Age.
    R1b-U152 is to be viewed in a broader Indo-European context - an archaic context;
    An archaic Indo-European stock that branched out into the proto-Keltic and proto-Italic;
    Being the major lineage amongst the Italics and a substantial lineage amongst the proto-Keltic and Keltic;

    There is no doubt in my mind that R1b-U152 came to Italy with the Indo-European Umbrians [ITALICS] during the Bronze-age; Emerging with the first substantial Indo-European culture in the Po valley - the Terremare ~1500 BC [1500 - 1100 BC] and continuing with the Urnfield complex of Villanova I, Golasecca and Este ~1300 BC;

    Indo-European Umbrians were akin to Indo-European proto-Kelts of the Tumulus and Urnfield Complex
    The link is mostly attested in Archaeology and Linguistics but also in Historical documentation:

    Cambrian Institute - The Cambrian Journal (1862)
    And Caius Sempronius, (De Divis. Ital.) - "The portion of the Apennines from the sources of the Tiber to the Nar, the Umbri inhabit, the oldest stock of the Old Gael, (Veteres Galli), as Augustus writes"
    [Apenninum colunt Ligures, portionem vero Apennini inhabitant Umbri, prima veterum Gallorum proies, ut Augustus scribit]

    James C. Prichard - Ethnography of Europe: Vol.III (1841)
    Solinus informs us that Bocchus, a writer who has been several times cited by Pliny, reported the Umbri to have been descended from the ancient Gauls; and a similar account of their origin has been adopted, either from the same or from different testimony, by Servius, Isidore, and other writers of a late period.
    [Bocchus (affranchi lettre de Sylla) absolvit Gallorum veterum propaginem Umbros esse]
    [Umbri, Italiae gens est, sed Gallorum veterum propago]

    Guy Bradley - Ancient Umbria (2000) [Oxford Uni. Press]
    This tradition could go back at least to Marcus Antonius (Gnipho) in early 1st cent. BC. See Servius, Aen. 12. 753: sane Umbros Gallorum veterum propaginem esse Marcus Antonius refert: hos eosdem, quod tempore aquosae cladis imbribus superfuerunt Ombrous ἡ Ὀμβρική / Ὀμβρικός cognominatos. "Indeed Marcus Antonius reports that the Umbrians are an offspring of the ancient Gauls; and that this same people, because they survived the rains in a time of watery disaster, were called the Ombroi'"

    Within this broader archaic Indo-European context U152 could also be part as a minor element within other Indo-European groups such as the proto-Germanics since (modern-day):
    North Jutland: 4.8% R1b-U152 - [Myres 2011 /45 samples]
    Mecklenburg: 6.8% R1b-U152 - [Rebala 2012 /131 samples]

    U152 is also present in Poland and Slovakia (~3% -Rebala et al 2012) and as far East as the Ural mountains [North Bashkirs/Bashkortostan] - Myrers et al 2011

    All this signalizing a much broader archaic Indo-European range;
    which is however the most substantial and frequent amongst the Indo-European Kelts and Italics and modern-day areas of the former Keltic and Italic realms;

    Myres et al 2011 -
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3039512/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    What about latest markers for L2, one is Z49 and the other is Z367. ?

    TMRCA states for L2+ could be born in present Belgium or Western Germany. Earlier it was stated eastern France and Corsica.
    I don't think there's been any academic testing for the very newest markers. Commercial testing is very unreliable because Italians just don't test very much.

    I'm not sure what you mean by your comment about TMRCA. Even if there was agreement about how to compute these dates, that doesn't tell you where a particular snp was born, nor, more importantly, in my view, where it first started to spread. That involves a lot of speculation looking at known cultures in existence at the time, their spread as tracked by material culture and a lot of other things.

    From things I've read recently, a respected U-152 analyst has held for a long time that U-152 may have first expanded in southeastern France or northwestern Italy, but that perhaps L2 developed in the eastern Beaker areas.

    This is all highly speculative.

    In terms of this thread, I was merely trying to show that L2 in the Balkans might have numerous sources both from within Italy and from without.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    Looking to more recent times the Balkans may have received an injection of R1b-U152 subclades during the Latin Empire of Constantinople and Venetian/Genoan rule. In the case of Venice the 24% L2 found in Treviso could be a possible source or maybe not. After-all if we expect there to have been some form of exodus then maybe we should be looking for a source of L2 that does not have the highest frequency, perhaps less than.

    Before and after the Latin Empire of Constantinople there were Normans and Angevins establishing themselves throughout the Eastern Mediterranean. Research and commercial testing of L2 subclades should shed more light on whether areas such as Maine-et-Loire (Anjou), Brabant (Belgium/Wallonia) or Brittany (Normandy) have a preponderance of certain L2 markers.

    Current commercial testing by FTDNA suggests that Z49 levels are highest in Switzerland whereas France is leading in terms of Z367. By contrast, Italy is lagging behind Switzerland, France, Germany, Scandinavia and Iberia. Maybe Italy experienced a form of 'brain-drain' before certain L2 subclades had the opportunity to establish themselves properly?

    L2 (as a percentage of U152+ individuals) is currently at significantly higher levels in France (76%), Belgium-Luxemburg (73%) and Scandinavia (71%), than in Austria (60%), Switzerland (58%), Germany (57%), Eastern Europe (57%) and Italy (55%).

    It's too early to say for sure but there seems to be more to L2 than meets the eye.

    I totally agree about the other possible sources for L2 in Greece and the Balkans. I don't know if I can lay my hands on the paper again, but I once read an analysis of marriages on Crete between the natives and Venetians, for example, so we know that it happened.

    As for the Angevins, I don't know about their R1b breakdown...I had some idea that they might be less U-152 than, say, the Burgundians.

    I'm not very comfortable speculating based on commercial testing. These collections are in no way a representative sample. For example, is the total number of testees from Italy equal to those from these other countries? I would be surprised if they were. In my experience, Italians have very little interest in this kind of testing, apart perhaps from some Padania types in the Veneto or Lombardia. Also, are the Italian testees from Italy or are they diaspora Italians by and large?

    Even with academic sampling, I think that the current method of testing people who say that all four of their grandparents came from a certain area is inadequate, and becoming more so with each passing year, especially in places where there has been substantial internal emigration for from 100-200 years. Just to take the French as an example, from everything I know of them, a very large percentage have lineages from all over the country.

    That's why I find the Boattini et al results more persuasive than prior ones as concerns mt dna and y dna in Italy. They used an autochtonous surname approach to weed out the samples, as well as the four grandparent filter. The same approach is being used by the People of the British Isles Project. Already, the Boattini approach has unearthed unexpected amounts of L-21 and other non-U152 R1b lineages, and has shown the multiple waves of certain y dna haplogroups.

    Again, as to the source or first expansion of some of these markers, I would agree with you that the current highest frequency is not always the best indicator of origin. On the other hand, diversity sometimes just means that there have been multiple movements of that marker into a certain area. Nothing is as simple as it has sometimes been made out to be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    the overall significance of U152/L2+ is still higher in North Italy because its 2x more frequent [13.6%] in the total population than in Bavaria [6.4%] total population
    If one considers the history of Northern Italy and the proposed connection between R1b-U152/L2+ and Rome then a frequency of 6.4% of the entire Bavarian population is more significant.

    Northern Italy's economy and cultural Renaissance was epic, if Bavaria ... traditional enemy of Rome has half the population of R1b-U152/L2+ compared to Tuscany, that is also relevant.

    Variance of R1b-U152+ subclades are more suggestive than frequencies. L2+ is the topic of discussion and the established centers if any of its subclades.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    If one considers the history of Northern Italy and the proposed connection between R1b-U152/L2+ and Rome then a frequency of 6.4% of the entire Bavarian population is more significant.

    Northern Italy's economy and cultural Renaissance was epic, if Bavaria ... traditional enemy of Rome has half the population of R1b-U152/L2+ compared to Tuscany, that is also relevant.
    R1b-U152 comes from outside of Italy - post# 9
    So thats the most significant fact to begin with;
    I have written about it too many times but again on post# 9 about the broader Indo-European context of R1b-U152; So in my opinion also the Illyrians or Thracians or Hellenes could be a source (as minor element of the broader Indo-European context) for R1b-U152/L2+ in the Balkans;

    Bavaria isnt even the area with the highest R1b-U152 frequency in Germany; The Upper Rhine area is even higher; But i have no academic data on the sub-clade variance of R1b-U152 in the Upper Rhine area; I was more surprised as to how high (substantially) R1b-U152 is in North Germany [Mecklenburg Baltic coast] 6.8% - Rebala et al 2012 /131 samples and also East Germany 8.5% - Myres et al 2011 /47 samples

    In Balkans i know that Croatia (might) have the highest frequency of R1b-U152 of 6.5% - Myres et al 2011 /108 samples Greece is 4.1% - Myres et al 2011 /171 samples and Crete much higher; Do you have additional studies and figures?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    Variance of R1b-U152+ subclades are more suggestive than frequencies. L2+ is the topic of discussion and the established centers if any of its subclades.
    Of course; but the overall frequency of the sub-clade within a population shouldnt be neglected;

    Best example is Tuscany; if you only take the internal variance of U152 in Tuscany than L2+ makes up only 28.3% of all U152 in Tuscany; so based on that value alone one might assume that L2+ is very low in Tuscany; but in reality the overall frequency of U152/L2+ in Tuscany is 10.6% of the total population that means every tenth Tuscan is U152/L2+ and thats pretty significant;

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I totally agree about the other possible sources for L2 in Greece and the Balkans. I don't know if I can lay my hands on the paper again, but I once read an analysis of marriages on Crete between the natives and Venetians, for example, so we know that it happened.

    As for the Angevins, I don't know about their R1b breakdown...I had some idea that they might be less U-152 than, say, the Burgundians.

    I'm not very comfortable speculating based on commercial testing. These collections are in no way a representative sample. For example, is the total number of testees from Italy equal to those from these other countries? I would be surprised if they were. In my experience, Italians have very little interest in this kind of testing, apart perhaps from some Padania types in the Veneto or Lombardia. Also, are the Italian testees from Italy or are they diaspora Italians by and large?

    Even with academic sampling, I think that the current method of testing people who say that all four of their grandparents came from a certain area is inadequate, and becoming more so with each passing year, especially in places where there has been substantial internal emigration for from 100-200 years. Just to take the French as an example, from everything I know of them, a very large percentage have lineages from all over the country.

    That's why I find the Boattini et al results more persuasive than prior ones as concerns mt dna and y dna in Italy. They used an autochtonous surname approach to weed out the samples, as well as the four grandparent filter. The same approach is being used by the People of the British Isles Project. Already, the Boattini approach has unearthed unexpected amounts of L-21 and other non-U152 R1b lineages, and has shown the multiple waves of certain y dna haplogroups.

    Again, as to the source or first expansion of some of these markers, I would agree with you that the current highest frequency is not always the best indicator of origin. On the other hand, diversity sometimes just means that there have been multiple movements of that marker into a certain area. Nothing is as simple as it has sometimes been made out to be.
    I doubt very much L2 is venetian, but NW Italian ( genoese )and SE France ( provenzal) and corsican.
    The history states that crete and cyrpus and other east med. areas was Genoese , then after 5 venetian-genoese wars , with the 5th ending in 1431. The Venetians took control of the eastern med and with it crete and cyprus and other areas. we have no knowledge how long the Genoese occupied crete, but it was prior 1204. cyprus was genoese as they build famagusta fortifications and used the island for cotton and wine production. The Venetian took it via Catherine Cornaro wedding with the frankish king.
    Then we have the aragonese/catalan/navaresse dominion of Greek mainland via the Navarra company around the 13th century.
    The L2 in Treviso is mostl likely from the 17th century. The venetian nation which bordered the grisons of Switzerland, had a contract of 150 years to hire Grison men as mercenaries, most settled in veneto....and lastly, the corse people of corsica served also in the venetian military ( as they hated the Genoese) and settled also in the venetian plains.

    I would really like to know the age of this L2 in treviso

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I doubt very much L2 is venetian, but NW Italian ( genoese )and SE France ( provenzal) and corsican.
    The history states that crete and cyrpus and other east med. areas was Genoese , then after 5 venetian-genoese wars , with the 5th ending in 1431. The Venetians took control of the eastern med and with it crete and cyprus and other areas. we have no knowledge how long the Genoese occupied crete, but it was prior 1204. cyprus was genoese as they build famagusta fortifications and used the island for cotton and wine production. The Venetian took it via Catherine Cornaro wedding with the frankish king.
    Then we have the aragonese/catalan/navaresse dominion of Greek mainland via the Navarra company around the 13th century.
    The L2 in Treviso is mostl likely from the 17th century. The venetian nation which bordered the grisons of Switzerland, had a contract of 150 years to hire Grison men as mercenaries, most settled in veneto....and lastly, the corse people of corsica served also in the venetian military ( as they hated the Genoese) and settled also in the venetian plains.

    I would really like to know the age of this L2 in treviso
    I don't know if L2 appeared first in the northwest or the northeast, but regardless, there is more L2 in the northeast now than in the northwest as a percent of U152. In terms of absolute percentages, the two areas seem about the same; 12.4% in the NW, vs. 12.3% in the NE.

    As per Nobody 1's post above:
    According to the latest study:

    Boattini et al 2013 -
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0065441

    NW Italy = 32.2% R1b-U152 [18.6% U152 / 12.4% L2 / 1.2 L20] - 161 samples
    NE Italy = 19.2% R1b-U152 [5.5% U152 / 12.3% L2 / 1.4 L20] - 73 samples

    64.0% of U152 in NE Italy is L2
    38.5% of U152 in NW Italy is L2

    ,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't know if L2 appeared first in the northwest or the northeast, but regardless, there is more L2 in the northeast now than in the northwest as a percent of U152. In terms of absolute percentages, the two areas seem about the same; 12.4% in the NW, vs. 12.3% in the NE.

    As per Nobody 1's post above:
    According to the latest study:

    Boattini et al 2013 -
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0065441

    NW Italy = 32.2% R1b-U152 [18.6% U152 / 12.4% L2 / 1.2 L20] - 161 samples
    NE Italy = 19.2% R1b-U152 [5.5% U152 / 12.3% L2 / 1.4 L20] - 73 samples

    64.0% of U152 in NE Italy is L2
    38.5% of U152 in NW Italy is L2

    ,
    I agree, but what I refer to was that L2 was once known as Nw-Italian, corsican and SE-french marker. It is now referred to a belgium-west german marker. Someone clearly needs to define what it is

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    A personal supposition: maybe too generalist and intuitive: the dicotomy L2/L20 and others deserve to be closer seen by me! Italy received surely U152 principally from Celts AND Italics: but density in West stays bigger -

    so I put it here, even if obsolete:
    a region in Austria and surroundings could have conserved a contact zone between Celts and Italics: when the first waves of every group had yet leaved the «cradle» before reaching farther countries (I think in gaelic, celtiberic on a side gone on the traces of Lusitanians and Ligurians, and in latine-sabellic in another), the others would had remained in this first zone, keeping on a bit more close: this last groups (future gallic and brittonic(s), osco-umbrian ones) could have underwent the Qw- >> P- shift (and for someones the S- >> H- shift in common with Dorians (?) - it would be interesting to know more about the affinities of all these different subgroups -

    I thought previously Y-R1b-S28-U152 demic growth inside P312 (scientists speak of a global demographic encrease at Urnfield times, at least in Poland and around) could, roughly, correspond to the eclosion of the Urnfield movement, implying these cultural and linguistic groups, vaguely «cousin» and stayed in a more central european position (it is not to say U152 is born at Urnfields time nor in the very center of Urnfield birthplace!!!)

    • already, just before the eclosion of Urnfield group of Lusace were seen tumuli people, archeologically close to the Celts (ethnically, it is an other point?) infiltring W-SW Poland through Bohemia or N.Moravia... the «Urnfield» style came after, but not by force through great additive demic imput,even if I think there were some tribes movements at the beginning – but now, when I see the weakness of N-E Italy and E-C & S-E Italy ofr Y-R1b as a whole, in lands of Veneti and Osco-Umbrians, I rather think Y-R1b-U152 in SW-Poland was from the Tumuli people, pre-Lusacian: hard to make my «religion» here!!! or maybe these last Italics found an already dense population of central Balkans origin there, from Calcholithic times?(Y-E1b+Y-J2 of some subclade, following the neolithical people (Y-G2a + Y-J2 of other subclade)
    • the hotspot of Y-I2a1b in S-E Eastern Germany in the Lusacian center could at the contrary show the «Illyrians-Karpodacians» brought a lot of Y-I2a1b surely mixed with others HGs
    • LOOK AT MAPS

    among Celts or supposedly Celts of Belgica Y-R-U152 had surely some weight – even today, the presence of U152 among southern English people is too high compared to N-Germany and Scandinavia percentages to be due only to Anglo-Saxons heritage, so some of the Celts stayed in S-E England or by centuries osmose recovered some places in S-E England; in all cases, Cornwall (a possible partial refuge for S-E Brittons) possedes more Y-R-U152 than Wales and Ireland (my post about voicing of initial stops F and S in western english modern dialects and in Brittany and W-germanic dialects) - I believe the first waves of Celts, the more atlantic ones, were more on the Y-R1b-L21-S145 model – Belgae occupied S-E and E Britannia: History says that, and some Classical Ancients even if we have to be cautious with their testimonies, said the S-E Brittons were shorter for stature and sturdier than the other Brittons (in short, they were more similar to the bulk of the Gaulish population of the time) – Julius Caesar wrote the Belgae were higher statured than the Celts (central Gauls) but shorter than the true Germanics – U152 is low enough among the belgian netherlander speaking population of today (mean: about 10,3% in a good sample) spite evident remnants of pre-germanic population among them, it is a pity we lack yet a good sampled DNA study about Wallonia! Plus: according to some surveys (sample value?) Luxemburg people show also a good taste of Y-R-U152 and even if germanic speaking today they surely have a good taste of ancient Belgae populations – apparently, in E-Baviera-W-Bohemia after the Völkerwanderungen time, the so called Germanics were more a mix of genuine Germanics and Celts-Pre-Celts than pure Germanics and kept some celtic archeologic traits even if changing language – (by anthropologic remnants we do know the Germanics going southwards kept more the plains and valleys when older populations kept the higher slopes and highlands in southern Germany and Switzerland) – So the bulk of the Belgae population did not trace back to an old emigration towards the North Sea shores but maybe rather by a more recent emigration from Bohemia or surroundings (roughly taken because we know this mountainous regions knew different cultures, one neighbouring another sometime before mixing and crossing: no mean %s immediatly, it would be naive to believe that, old tribes did not propose a social insurence to newcomers! Some scholars say Belgae people came from this area – the few links remarked with italic could be the proof of kept contacts rather than the proof of pre-separation archaïsms? My readings were affirmations more than demonstrations (B. Sergent) – but DNA is a demic marker uneasy to date; I am sure La Tène period participated too in partial redistribution of Y-HGs and in particular, of Y-R1b-U152 – but more strictly among celtic or celticized populations; I speak here about demic movements implying Y-R-U152, not about the cradle: it would have been between E-France-Switzerland-NW-Italy and U152 was already present at high rates among the people that became the «Ligurians» but the future core of U152 stayed in contact with more eastern populations and participate lately to the formation of other more or less derived cultures and their movements, if loosing weight in %s... the presence of it in N-Croatia and Greece (even! Galati!) followed surely enough the La Tène expansion towards East* -
    *the only but big problem I have is its heavy presence among ONE (ONLY!) group of Bashkirs, but more samplings and historic details could explain it someday...
    – the problem in Europe is that the same centers could have been the origin of diversely evolved cultural aspects – the Belgae story is linked, maybe, to La Tène consequences than to Urnfields?
    if my hypothesis of a DNA part is solid enough, the linguistic one concerning Belgae is very fragile- &: D. Faux spoke also of a Cimbri theory concerning SE-England envolving the Vikings era (but it falls concerning Cornwall) – all the way I keep prefering thinking Teutons and Cimbri were more Celts than Germanics...and maybe were they Belgae (see about Germanics formation in other thread)

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    In terms of R1b u152, it reaches highest frequencies in north-western and north-central Italy (50%) and Tuscany (40%). It englobes 50% of Swiss males. Alsace region and Var regions of France both have 20% u152; Auvergne has 17% Nord pas de Calais has about 17-18% as well I believe north-western France has about 20% as well, continuing into north-east France, Belgium has 18-20% across most of the country and southernnengland has 16%. As for Germany, I've seen a study claiming 34.5% of men from Freiburg Im Breisgau are R1b S-21; another 23% of the males where R1b-S28 (u152) and another 28% belonged to any other form of R1b-M269. In the city of Mainz, only 18% of males where R1b-S21, and only 12% where R-S28. Another 26% belonged to other forms of M269. The city of Munster has about 49% R1b S21 and 17% of R1b u-152; 34% of the men are another form of M269. Overall according to this study on western German males, about 34% of men of western Germany are u106, 18% are u152 and 30% are some other form of M269

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    Map of haplogroup R1b u152
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Clearly it's virtually entirely restricted to Italy,Switzerland, France and Belgium.

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    Richard A. Rocca stated the following last year (see below). Note that with the Big Y results coming in this information is likely to change somewhat:

    France and Britain

    - We knew that L2 made up a larger percentage of U152 outside of Italy before, but now we know that L2 outside of Italy is primarily Z49 and Z367 in France and Britain. In general terms, this suggests that the U152-L2 in Britain is mostly of French (as in the geographical region) origin.

    Switzerland, the Rhine and Italy
    - There are still a lot of hidden lineages for L2 (xZ49, Z367) especially in Italy, Switzerland and the Rhine (so basically outside of France and Britain).
    - Z36 forms a larger percentage of U152 frequency from western Switzerland to Tuscany than anywhere else and seems not to have been heavily involved with L2 in France or Britain.
    - Within central Italy, L2 was curiously much lower than U152 (xL2) in the FTDNA samples, and now we know it is mostly attributed to Z36 and Z56.
    - Within Tuscan Z36, almost all of it is Z54/Z143 which looks like a regional group as it is almost non-existent in FTDNA samples.
    - We didn't know what to expect in Sardinia, but now we know U152 is heavily Z192 (and probably higher with its parent PF6658/Z193). It could be that this is due to an initial founder effect from coastal Tuscany as Z192 is also important there.
    - In central Italy, Z56 sub lineages seem to be more frequent in Z144/Z145/Z146

    The Low Countries
    - Z367+Z34+ seems to have a stronger presence in the Low Countries than outside of it.


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    U152>L2>Z49, British Origins

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Someone who is tracing his own particular U-152 lineage might want to see which particular legions were stationed in his ancestral area, and then check to see where the legions were originally formed, as that might give some clues?
    I took you at your word. My Geno 2.0 came back U152>L2>Z49. My Y-ancestor was born in NW England (historic county Cumberland, now Cumbria) around 1650. The family appears to have originated a few miles south of Carlisle, which is at the western end of Hadrian's wall. The Roman legions which were involved in the construction / manning of the wall were II Augusta, VI Victrix, and XX Valeria Victrix. Unfortunately, I have not been able to determine exactly where these particular legions were raised - although II Augusta and VI Victrix both saw action in Perugia in 41 BCE, shortly after they were founded.

    Have enough results come back to generate a haplogroup map for Z49, or even L2? The U152 map is interesting, but I'd like to see further refinement.

    I'm glad to have found a group of people so passionate, educated, and respectful of each other.

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    mr. hammers finds for R1

    https://gap.familytreedna.com/media/..._in_Europe.pdf

    note: page 13............Derenburg cave
    1 G2a3
    2 F*(xG,H,I,J,K)

    See also

    Evolutionary tree of human Y-chromosome DNA (Y-DNA) haplogroups
    MRC Y-ancestor
    A00 A0'1'2'3'4
    A0 A1'2'3'4
    A1 A2'3'4
    A2'3 A4=BCDEF
    A2 A3 B CDEF
    DE CF
    D E C F
    GHIJKLT
    G HIJKLT
    H IJKLT
    IJ KLT
    I J LT K
    L T MP X S
    M P NO
    Q R N O
    • Jump up ^ van Oven M, Van Geystelen A, Kayser M, Decorte R, Larmuseau HD (2013). "Seeing the wood for the trees: a minimal reference phylogeny for the human Y chromosome". Human Mutation. doi:10.1002/humu.22468. PMID 24166809.
    References


    Some scholars are saying that they will retest for L and T ydna from this cave since they where already split from K group before the age of these finds

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    Hello,

    My Y-DNA is R1b-U152-L2. My ancestors came to Sevilla from Liguria, in Italy in 1657. Regards

    Y-DNA : R1b1a2a1a1b3c (R-L2)
    mtDNA: H65

    Paternal: Giovanni Battista Rabai, b. 1647, Casanova Lerrone, Savona, Italy
    Maternal: María García Martínez, b. 1746, Hontanaya, Cuenca, España

  25. #25
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    22-03-14
    Location
    Cesena
    Posts
    4
    Points
    95
    Level
    1
    Points: 95, Level: 1
    Level completed: 45%, Points required for next Level: 55
    Overall activity: 14.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-Z150
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    Hi everyone,

    I had recently tested my DNA and googling for more info about my haplogroup I found this thread.

    I and my parents are from Cesena, Adriatic coast of emilia rogmana in Italy. I have done a little of research and my surname (Taioli) likely come from veneto Italy, near Verone where there is even a place named Taioli.

    DNA test report me R1b1a2a1a1b3c (myfdna) U152-L2+ and genographic project report my YDNA as R-Z150. mtDNA is H1.

    So I must argue I got celtics antenates right?

    If anyone can speculate more on my ancestry I will be very glad :)

    I haven't found info on internet about Z150

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