Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 57

Thread: Basques not indoeuropeans?

  1. #26
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    31-08-13
    Posts
    37


    Country: Sweden



    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    i dont get what is hard to understand Celts probablly 3,500-4,500ybp conquered west europe with mainly R1b Df27 majority in France and Iberia with minority R1b L21 while in British isles those Celts had majority R1b L21 and minority R1b Df27.
    It is hard to understand because it requires us to dismiss the most widely held theories on Indo-European linguistics. As far as I've seen there are no evidence that the R1B expansion to Western Europe was by Indo-Europeans in the first place. It is considered proven in itself, and when asked for linguistic evidence, the proponents point back to the genetic results. Genetics is used to prove a theory, then genetics proves linguistics, and linguistics proves the theory. That is a circular reasoning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tone View Post
    The simplest answer is that the folks who introduced R1B into Europe, circa 3,000 bc, were not speakers of an Indo-European language.

    2,000 years later (around 1,000 bc), the R1B carrying Western Indo-Europeans (Germans/Celts/Italians) burst onto the scene. They were probably "born" in Central Europe, adopting an Indo-European language from mixing with IE Corded Ware folk to the East. These R1B heavy IE-speaking peoples exploded from Central Europe and conquered the West, South, and North. The process was still not complete during historical times. When the Romans entered Iberia, half the peninsula was IE speaking (Celts) while half was speaking something other (Basque, Iberian, etc.) And to show how language can shift, the Iberian Peninsula ended up adopting neither of these languages, instead they speak an Italic dialect today (obviously).

    I guess what I'm trying to say is that the Indo-Europeanization of Western Europe might have been a very recent phenomenon, beginning sometime around 800 bc and ending in modern times. The Basques are a remnant of an earlier language strata. As for their R1B being a newer downstream clad, I think this is a given, considering peoples are always evolving. All it takes is one conquering clad to go through a language shift (R1b males adopting IE in Central Europe) and it could seem like all R1B must have been IE from the beginning. But it might not be the case, if that makes sense.

    Of course this is all assumption, but that's what discussion on a forum is all about, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    I strongly dis agree u are making many big assumptions. please click on The spread of R1b1a2a1a L11 Germanic Italo Celts. And look at FTDNA R1b page. Besides Corded ware almost deifntley spoke proto Balto Slavic if it came from Corded ware which is hard to explain why aren't they in the same family.
    I strongly agree with Tone here - a recent spread of the current Indo-European language families to Western Europe is still the prevailing theory. For example, Celtic did not reach Ireland before the iron age, around 600 BC. That requires that R1B was given its large distribution by a previous expansion, a people which might have spoken an extinct Indo-European language, or a Paleo-European language such as Basque. So Tone's theory requires far less assumptions than Fire Haired's. Fire Haired has to revision widely held linguistic theories and assume a very early spread of Celtic languages.

    Might I again point out that the FTDNA page clearly states that genetics cannot prove spread of languages. And as I point out above, genetics cannot be used to prove linguistics, if assumptions on linguistics are based on genetics in the first place.

  2. #27
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,115

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    1 members found this post helpful.
    mtdna of Basques in ancient times also Germany and Portugal

    http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot...n-origins.html
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  3. #28
    Tabaccus Maximus Tabaccus Maximus's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-12
    Posts
    169

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - SRY 2627
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1a

    Ethnic group
    Galo-Germanic Atlantic Fringe
    Country: USA - Texas



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    mtdna of Basques in ancient times also Germany and Portugal

    http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot...n-origins.html

    Sorry, but Maju's charts are misleading. The first 'proven' samples of Haplogroup H in Europe are in the Late Neolithic "Rossen Culture" in Central Europe only. And the Rossen Culture shows clear signs of early "Indo-Europeanesque" ingression it their burial habits and agricultural package.
    Not saying they were Indo-European, but a diffusion of IE people or pre-IE people and ideas were making their way into Europe at that time.

    H1 has its highest diversity, basically everywhere but Spain and France. H3 has its highest diversity in North Africa and the Middle East.

    Maju's contention that R* samples in the Magdalenian are actually H just doesn't work given the divesity and age of H - from another place.


  4. #29
    Tabaccus Maximus Tabaccus Maximus's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-12
    Posts
    169

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - SRY 2627
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1a

    Ethnic group
    Galo-Germanic Atlantic Fringe
    Country: USA - Texas



    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post
    It is hard to understand because it requires us to dismiss the most widely held theories on Indo-European linguistics. As far as I've seen there are no evidence that the R1B expansion to Western Europe was by Indo-Europeans in the first place. It is considered proven in itself, and when asked for linguistic evidence, the proponents point back to the genetic results. Genetics is used to prove a theory, then genetics proves linguistics, and linguistics proves the theory. That is a circular reasoning.

    I strongly agree with Tone here - a recent spread of the current Indo-European language families to Western Europe is still the prevailing theory. For example, Celtic did not reach Ireland before the iron age, around 600 BC.
    Ok, I am going to defend F.H. but not his total lack of spelling and grammer.

    First, the "recent spread of the current Indo-European language families to WEstern Europe is still the prevailing theory"
    Well, it may be the prevailing theory, but it is not an intelligent theory. You also say that "Celtic did not reach Ireland before the Iron age, around 600 B.C." This is false. The La Tene expansion never made it to Ireland and never made it to most of Britain. The only theory that pretends to account for the total distribution of Celtic languages is the Atlantic hypothesis.

    Secondly, it is not circular reasoning for various disciplines to corroborate each other. For example, the presence of the English language in Alaska was accompanied by genetics that I promise will almost 1:1 corroborate in the archaelogical/archaeogentic record. It's never as simple as this and in many cases won't hold true. But many times it does and will.

  5. #30
    Banned nordicwarrior's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-10-12
    Posts
    958

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 (M253)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    European Mix
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Tabaccus Maximus View Post
    Ok, I am going to defend F.H. but not his total lack of spelling and grammer...
    I think you may mean grammar? The answer to the Basque language is obvious and is spelled out (pun intended-- so sorry) in their ample collection of myths and legends. R1b replaced the long dwelling hg. I males almost completely... the autosomal genetic holdover admixture is clearly able to be identified. The collective "mother tongue" made the jump via the caring cradle of maternal love.

  6. #31
    Banned nordicwarrior's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-10-12
    Posts
    958

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 (M253)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    European Mix
    Country: United States



    Any other ponderific (totally made up that word) questions in need of answering? I fear I may be moving on to the lost science (or art really) of phrenology, so ask away while you have the chance...

  7. #32
    Advisor LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,295

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    mtdna of Basques in ancient times also Germany and Portugal

    http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot...n-origins.html
    This is great stuff, although I think that we need more samples to be sure, and I would like to see H1 separately from all H, as this is very telling in Basque case.

    From Basque chart we can see some mtDNA changes in Neolithic which came with first farmers (mt JT and K) probably together with J and E for men.
    The biggest change though comes in Chalcolithic, when 50% of mt genome is replaced. This change probably came with J2 man and maybe first none IE R1b.
    But if Basque language is copper age then why we can't see any related language in Europe and Middle East, even more if it was bronze age?
    There is a big chance that Basque language is Paleolithic with some borrowings from later cultures.

    Check this great analyses by Taranis.
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...asque-language
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

  8. #33
    Regular Member Wilhelm's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-09
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,661

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-S26
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberians
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    i dont get what is hard to understand Celts probablly 3,500-4,500ybp conquered west europe with mainly R1b Df27 majority in France and Iberia with minority R1b L21 while in British isles those Celts had majority R1b L21 and minority R1b Df27. Some Celts in France Iberia area adopted the native language for whatever reason. So modern Basque paternal lines are vast majority under Italo Celtic R1b S116 around 80% like Celts of the British isles and western coast of France. I have just learned even though my surname is British probably Scotland or England i most likley had R1b Df27. And that it is probably about 40% in western France and 10-20% in Scotland and Ireland(R1b Df27 not just in Iberia)

    Basque in aust dna tests show to be most similar to Neolithic farmer samples Otzie (Alps Italy 5,300ybp) and Gok4(south Swedan 5,000ybp).Because of their very high amount of med in whatever test like globe13 while they hav very little west asian and southwest asian(which also came in Neloithic) and below average for north Euro(pre Neloithic Europe) compared to Spain and France. I guess that would mean in ancestry overall they are very Neloithic. BAsque do seem to be kind of unique in aust dna, mtdna(high amount of H1, H3, and V), and Y DNA very low G2a, E1b1b, and J1 compared to surrounding FRench and Spainish. And highest or close to hiighest amount of I2a1a M26 besides Sardine.
    Basques are far from being pure Neolithic, in fact they would be one of the least neolithic of Southern Europe and many other parts of Europe. First of all, they are not like Sardinians, they have much more Northern-Euro influences. Second, they have one of the highest concentrations of Paloelithic mtDNA (basically U5) in Europe, after Saamis and Finns.

  9. #34
    Regular Member Fire Haired's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-06-13
    Posts
    689

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Df27(Spain)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2(Prussia)

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic, Latino(~6%)
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Basques are far from being pure Neolithic, in fact they would be one of the least neolithic of Southern Europe and many other parts of Europe. First of all, they are not like Sardinians, they have much more Northern-Euro influences. Second, they have one of the highest concentrations of Paloelithic mtDNA (basically U5) in Europe, after Saamis and Finns.
    That's not good evidence the fact is that in globe13 and other tests I have seen they are very very very high in med second to Sardine and Neolithic farmer samples. Sure they may have a lot of U5 I think U5b1 but probably not that much look at Eupedia mtDNA charts that is just direct female line no big deal. We don't know exactly how popular U5 ws just so far in Mesloithic samples and hunter gathers in the Neolithic U5 is the majority of all mtDNA mainly U5b. Most mtDNA H in modern Europeans is probably pre Neloithic the H1 and H3 is deifntley pre Neolithic and is very popular os we cant just assume pre Neolithic Europeans equals U and U5.

  10. #35
    Regular Member Wilhelm's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-09
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,661

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-S26
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberians
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    That's not good evidence the fact is that in globe13 and other tests I have seen they are very very very high in med second to Sardine and Neolithic farmer samples. Sure they may have a lot of U5 I think U5b1 but probably not that much look at Eupedia mtDNA charts that is just direct female line no big deal. We don't know exactly how popular U5 ws just so far in Mesloithic samples and hunter gathers in the Neolithic U5 is the majority of all mtDNA mainly U5b. Most mtDNA H in modern Europeans is probably pre Neloithic the H1 and H3 is deifntley pre Neolithic and is very popular os we cant just assume pre Neolithic Europeans equals U and U5.
    They are 73% Atlanto-Baltic on K7b whereas Sardinians are around 50%, that's a huge difference. The atlanto-med also includes a good deal of mesolithic alelles on it. As for the mtDNA, the U5 samples are not just neolithic, but also been found in Paleolithic Iberia, even haplogrup H.

  11. #36
    Regular Member Fire Haired's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-06-13
    Posts
    689

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Df27(Spain)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2(Prussia)

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic, Latino(~6%)
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    They are 73% Atlanto-Baltic on K7b whereas Sardinians are around 50%, that's a huge difference. The atlanto-med also includes a good deal of mesolithic alelles on it. As for the mtDNA, the U5 samples are not just neolithic, but also been found in Paleolithic Iberia, even haplogrup H.
    I agree BAsque overall results are very diff from sardine. But their similarity is they have the most med I cant speak for all tests though and it is suppose to have come in the neloithic and is dominate in Neolithic farmer samples like otzie. That's all I am not saying their extremely close overall. I have seen some tests I cant remember their names their from dodecad and they have two groups one being north euro and another I forgot the name but it is rare in mid easterns. And other tests were all Europeans have majority specfic European groups which makes sense since it shockes me that according to tests like globe13 the average European is 50% European.

  12. #37
    Regular Member Nobody1's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-03-13
    Posts
    1,033


    Country: Germany - Baden-Wurttemberg



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    They are 73% Atlanto-Baltic on K7b whereas Sardinians are around 50%, that's a huge difference. The atlanto-med also includes a good deal of mesolithic alelles on it. As for the mtDNA, the U5 samples are not just neolithic, but also been found in Paleolithic Iberia, even haplogrup H.
    Exactly;
    This notion that the basques are a Paleolithic or Neolithic remnant Population (which i also used to believe) is actually nowhere (Genetics / Linguistics) factually proven; The Hg's [Y & mt] that exist amongst modern-day basques also exist in other European regions and populations so that aspect is far from exclusive only to the basques;
    The modern-day basques are Genetically not that diff. than other modern-day European populations (the French basques even cluster closer with Iberians than to France); They have no special Genetic ancestry link to GÖK4 or ÖTZI or the Hunter-gatherers that were tested and no Neolithic corpse ever had R1b-DF27 or R1b (their major Y-DNA lineage);

    This aspect also becomes obvious when compared to the Sardinians; The Sardinians are Genetically isolated to other modern-day European populations and cluster closest and only with Neolithic Europeans - that in the broadest sense can be attributed to the Sardinians to be from "Old Europe" stock - however the basques do not cluster with the Sardinians as one would expect if they were Neolithic or Old Europe;

    The basques just speak an isolated language that is non-Indo-European and pre-Indo-European in the sense that it was present in Western Europe before the Indo-Europeans reached Iberia and Atlantic-fringe in the 1st mil BC; Not in the sense that it is pre-Indo-European that it stems from the Paleolithic or Neolithic; Unless they actually unearth a basque inscription from the Neolithic the language placement can be anywhere before the 1st mil BC;

  13. #38
    Tabaccus Maximus Tabaccus Maximus's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-12
    Posts
    169

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - SRY 2627
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1a

    Ethnic group
    Galo-Germanic Atlantic Fringe
    Country: USA - Texas



    Quote Originally Posted by nordicquarreler View Post
    I think you may mean grammar? The answer to the Basque language is obvious and is spelled out (pun intended-- so sorry) in their ample collection of myths and legends. R1b replaced the long dwelling hg. I males almost completely... the autosomal genetic holdover admixture is clearly able to be identified. The collective "mother tongue" made the jump via the caring cradle of maternal love.

    Ha ha you got me. Grammar it is. I own that one and probably a few others.

    N.W., I agree with you as far as hg replacement, but I'm not so sure about haplogroup I being the relict it's assumed to be. I think the bizarre distribution of haplogroup I could be due in part to it being culturally part of the water based founding events of R1b from the near east and the spread of the urnfield culture from the SW Balkans, or the much early Yamnaya and pre-Yamnaya spread into Euroe, but that's just me.

    I don't buy all the Franco-Cantabrian refuge stuff "thousands of people hunkered down in caves watching the snow flakes blow buy the cave door" I think the population of Western Europe was mostly replaced.

  14. #39
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    19,193


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Every population in Europe has a Neolithic component, in my opinion. Dienekes has not opined about it recently, but he initially stated that even the North Europe component masks a Neolithic element. People see results that show that the Swedish hunter-gatherers are more similar to North Europeans and forget that they are outside the range of modern variation, unlike Oetzi and Gok 4.
    See: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/06...-arintero.html

    They also forget all those Dodecad analyses that show that all Europeans are a mixture of Sardinian and Karaitana to one degree or another.

    As to the Basques in particular, as is clear from the above analysis, the Basques are not the direct descendents of the La Brana mesolithic peoples.

    Also, as was posted above, the "Mediterranean" component is the most appropriate autosomal component, in my opinion, for tracking the Neolithic. That's clear from the analysis of both Oetzi and Gok 4, our only ancient Neolithic samples.

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/10...-dna-with.html

    The French Basque score of 59.5 for Mediterranean is exactly the same as for Oetzi for the same component. Pais Vasco is only a few percentage points lower. The difference is that the Basques have about 40-41% North European, versus 14% for Oetzi and 28% for Gok 4. (By the way, the French, or at least the Lyon academic sample for the French, only have 40% Mediterranean. They now have a combination of 12% West and South West Asian and an additional 5% in Northern European. )

    These are some interesting graphics:

    Modern European populations closest to the Gok 4 Neolithic farmer:
    http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2012/04/...-ancestry.html
    The above table is from Skoglund et al

    Another graphic:
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/04...ic-sweden.html

  15. #40
    martiko martiko's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-01-14
    Posts
    213

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-DF100
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T1a1

    Ethnic group
    european : basqueR1b/IberianI2b
    Country: France



    It's a pity that there is not here Basque, I am Basque by my parent and French by my culture.

    But first I say that Basque eushkara:

    1_ It is not a PIE language

    2_ Basque is a not classified language and its apparteance in the group IE discusses but not excluded.
    Basque does not belong to the group of the centum nor the zatem and it even though it introduces of numerous likeness with satem.

    3_ You should not merge the eushkara with the iberian/aquitanian (PIE language)

    4_ You should not merge the eushkara with the iberian Celtic (language IE)

    5_Les Basque or their forefathers vascons to back in Spain where at about 8th century after their win on Wisigoths in Pyrenees in Pampelune.(For a subsequent date of their arrival nothing was found)

    5-les basques have a contour autosomale and phnotype Bretons of France a bit similar in. They are that some people call of ' Alpine ".

    Iberian and celtic :
    https://www.google.fr/search?q=%C3%A...w=1250&bih=874

    Basque today :
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqgpX6Zz02Q
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlxywQjkHeo

  16. #41
    martiko martiko's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-01-14
    Posts
    213

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-DF100
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T1a1

    Ethnic group
    european : basqueR1b/IberianI2b
    Country: France



    My proposal of invention is:
    Imagine that all amrindians of North America disappears or is crossed, and then they find strange people who does not speak English, with a strange physical appearance, and their name also is strange, it is the Scotsmen.
    Therefore savant a little more brilliant than the others, decrees that they are the amrindiens true, and that their language is the genuine Paleolithic language.


    the 19th century was an epoch when they had classified of language under IE the name of and it was the running for whom will discover the first, the Paleolithic population, and a language which did not belong to the latin or Slavonic.....but in reality nobody indeed knows IE and nobody speaks it and has ever intended it to speak.

  17. #42
    Elite member
    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    72
    Posts
    4,881

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Tabaccus Maximus View Post
    Sorry, but Maju's charts are misleading. The first 'proven' samples of Haplogroup H in Europe are in the Late Neolithic "Rossen Culture" in Central Europe only. And the Rossen Culture shows clear signs of early "Indo-Europeanesque" ingression it their burial habits and agricultural package.
    Not saying they were Indo-European, but a diffusion of IE people or pre-IE people and ideas were making their way into Europe at that time.

    H1 has its highest diversity, basically everywhere but Spain and France. H3 has its highest diversity in North Africa and the Middle East.

    Maju's contention that R* samples in the Magdalenian are actually H just doesn't work given the divesity and age of H - from another place.

    If a red well recently on a forum that were found 1 mt-U BUT ALSO 2 mt-H in madgalenian Spain!
    as a whole, 50% of last paleolithical Iberia would have been mt-H, giving a 44% at neolithical time... could someone confirm it?

  18. #43
    martiko martiko's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-01-14
    Posts
    213

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-DF100
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T1a1

    Ethnic group
    european : basqueR1b/IberianI2b
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    If a red well recently on a forum that were found 1 mt-U BUT ALSO 2 mt-H in madgalenian Spain!
    as a whole, 50% of last paleolithical Iberia would have been mt-H, giving a 44% at neolithical time... could someone confirm it?
    No !
    and I find nothing in the sense of it or what pretends Maju.mtDNA-H1-H3-map.jpg

    H1 and H3 never was found in the msolithique either Paleolithic, but on earlier at the end of neolithique, or then I missed a lot of information.
    mtDNA-L-map.jpg
    being can he blends with MtDNA L ?

  19. #44
    Elite member
    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    72
    Posts
    4,881

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by martiko View Post
    My proposal of invention is:
    Imagine that all am�rindians of North America disappears or is crossed, and then they find strange people who does not speak English, with a strange physical appearance, and their name also is strange, it is the Scotsmen.
    Therefore savant a little more brilliant than the others, decrees that they are the am�rindiens true, and that their language is the genuine Paleolithic language.


    the 19th century was an epoch when they had classified of language under IE the name of and it was the running for whom will discover the first, the Paleolithic population, and a language which did not belong to the latin or Slavonic.....but in reality nobody indeed knows IE and nobody speaks it and has ever intended it to speak.
    I am not sure of what you mean here about I-E, P-I-E or ...?
    What I'm sure of is all the classified I-Ean languages share or had shared a lot of basic words, syntax, morphologic traits - there is no "complot" here I think -
    basque language is very very different, as for basic words as for syntax, showing just some peculiarities that could have survived as substrata heritage among new celtic languages (a few traits) - but we find more syntaxic affinities I think between semitic or hamitic languages with new celtic ones, whatever the caution we have to take concerning some possible covergences -
    I made the hypothesis (a try, no more) of proto-basque speaking tribes coming along with early I-Eans through Northeast Europe and then central Europe, and sharing by geographical origin a lot of common genetic traits - only one of several possibilities - maybe they spoke a language that participated to the proto-I-E language formation, along with a more southern group of languages from S-E Caspian???
    I think we lack yet more data to be sure of our judgment and to be more precise
    I 'm amazed by the self security of some opinions concerning this interesting but confusing problem of opposed languages with akin genetic basis


  20. #45
    Elite member
    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    72
    Posts
    4,881

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    I put here some thoughts about autosomals poolings - it concerns in some part the Basques and the Celts and others peope and aspects...because as we know whatever the angle of analysis we choose all our threads concern mankind History or are linked to it - so I hope I shall be excused!

    Sometimes I am surprised by some analysis of countries autosomals distributions, from one way of pooling to another – I know (or I believe I know) these poolings are in a big part arbitrary – but I would have prefered, as the subpopulations numbers were increasing, that the previous groupings (unless they were proved to be very inadapted) were kept and just broken down, without remove too much their first borders with other groupings – but it is not the way things are running (I speak for the most about Dodecad, I have red very little about details of other poolings as made by Britains DNA (spite I am client), by Eurognes...
    by instance, I made (and others also did) some speculations about the 'gedrosia' component in Dodecad, but the poor component disappeared from later more detailed analysis of Dodecad, or appeared very lowered down – all that could question the worth of this kind of analysis even if we can take some valuable conclusions from it -
    I was astonished by the Dodecad K9 or 10 (I don't find my notes) where we found 'basque' and 'sardinian' almost «pure» components: is that possible? Surely not – sometimes the new «components» formed upon a greater ancient one can be finer grained, sometimes they seem a new mixture without any homogeneity – When we find a 'basque' population (not component) firstable broken into 'north-european' and 'south-european' and after the same population with only 1 component (almost) and we look at the distribution of this «pure» basque component among other populations, we see some interesting results; the question is: these 'basque' %s we see by instance in the Isles or Scandinavia are they genuine basque component or an undetermined component common to 'basque' population and northwestern populations??? the same reasoning with 'sardinian' or other typical population where «population» is almost equal to «component»... -
    when I put the distributions of 'mediterranean' opposed to 'west-asian' I see a western + northern geographic distribution for the former, being Sard people on this side -
    when I put the distributions of 'basque' opposed to 'sardinian', it is 'basque' which takes this western and northern place but here the population of Sardinia is «centered» with South-East -
    when 'gedrosia' component is in the game (but I recall it varies according to K...') its distribution as opposed to 'caucasian' is less simple: we see high %s in Basque country, Norway, Sweden, Cornwall, Ireland, Western Scotland and Orcades, but the opposed is not exactly in South-East (comprised into it Iran, Near-Eastern, Caucasus and Anatolia populations) but in Sardinia, Greece, Bulgaria and more surprising Lithuania, Russia, Belarus and Poland: as if (at first sight and speculation) 'gedrosia' would be more akin to 'basque' than to 'sardinian' and as if a wave from the Steppes would have erased 'gedrosia' in Eastern Europe, North and South... - even putting 'mediterranean' along with 'gedrosia' and 'caucasian' does not change the order of things, only 'gedrosia' has lower %s -


    I think we can imagine something as:
    a small component, we can find very far in North and North-East of Europe lands, is common to Basques, Scandinavians and Finnic people: I think in a paleolithical population that went northwards after LGL, surely of 'cromagnon' affiliation – evidently, other surrounding close regions have this old component, but less visible – the basque population has too an other northern component found among the 'north-europe' or 'northwestern european', at low level, as have almsost all the countries of Europe and even countries from Western Asia or Caucasus – the principal component among Basques is a western 'mediterranean' one, maybe there before Neolithic (we could thing in a Brünn-Capellid direct phylum, but it is very unsure and would be scarce; maybe a first wave of same phylum as 'sardinian' but isolated there little time before, gracilized descendants of an 'eurafrican' type of Eastern Mediterranea, of a more remote same origin as 'brünn-combe-capelle' but came there through South and not through North, and very distinct from 'cromagnon' concerning bones -
    Sardinians have it, at very lower levels – the 'sardinian' component contains an other sub-component I would name 'central-mediterranean', but that was rather 'pan-mediterranean' at some stage of history – maybe more evolved lower statured form of the «basque mediterranean» I spoke about just before. -
    &: the 'chancelade' type played surely a big role in the formation of western 'mediterraneans' of variable statures (1m65 to 1m72 I think) but all of them with common features: high narrow faces spite broad enough cheekbones (bizygoma), very narrow jaws, the height been linked to the upper facial part for the most, high narrow skulls, high and large enough orbits (higher and narrower than the «cousins» of 'capelle-brünn' phylum) and a forehead (frontal) a bit steeper than these last «cousins» too, as well as for the brows ridges: in short, more «evolved» or «gentler»: the descendants of this 'chancelade' (partly mixed with previous people more cromagnoïd) could be linked to Tardenoisian spread, and coming from East Mediterranea (I reserve my opinion concerning possible Y-HG link) – the same type, mixed with more 'arabian'-like types same of remote origin but more gracilized) came again during early Neolithic, I think – It seems having reached Basque country at maritime Megalithics times? I have some difficulty to «analyse» the La Braña crania 1 (7000 BC in Leon, NW Spain) because I have only a picture, almost taken from face but not totally, and from the top: at first sight, and I believe it presents a strong 'cromagnon' network of features and maybe something else akin to the 'c-capelle-brünn' phylum or to the 'chancelade-like' tardenoisian people, hard to say, but very different as a whole from the Loosbourg mesolithical skull... were all of them Y-I people? I have some doubt... the autosomals mixture I can read give a 71,9% 'north-european', a 24,8% 'mediterranean' and a 3,2% 'paleo-african' components for La Braña 1: which could be the 'cromagnon' aspect linked to? 'N-Euro' or 'Med'??? I choose 'N-Euro' - all the way if this 'Med' is not the 'basque' component, the 'Med' admixture proves very well gene flow from South or South-East was already efficient at Mesolithic times unless there had been some exchanges of females with agricultors? - the 'paleo-african' seems to me linked to 'Med'... (but it recalls me also the «negroid» modification upon a 'cromagnoid' basis among the 'grimaldi' types who still had descendants in Mediterranea at Eneolithic-Chalcolithic times: when came first this negroid features? I do not know for now)


    concerning 'gedrosia', left aside a slight element of 'south-asian', it could be a more archaïc and extended wave of 'westasian' before a «sister» branch knew some new mutations and selection around Caucasus-Zagros, this late version coming maybe with some agriculturalists but maybe more peri-Black Sea people with some kind of Bronze Age Indo-Europeans?; so we could economize a special northern route for Y-R1b+'gedrosia'?!? (I confess this explanation by an archaïc unchanged form is very dubtful)... - at first sight 'gedrosia' in northern and western Europe seems independant from the neolithical revolution, and the question is «when?» - its paucity in northeastern Europe (even very more striking when compared to 'caucasian') seems showing an erasing by Steppic people from East – but Finns have no 'gedrosia', then??? Either a maritime megalithic introgression or an early introgression with the first Indo-Europeans (+ some indo-europeanized tribes? Y-R1b?), came from lands closer to Caspian??? all of them achieved their long travel in north-atlantic Europe!
    The first scenario could confirm 'gedrosia' was maybe more largely spred in ancient time around South-Caspian, South-Caucasus, before demic introgressions came from the very Caucasus region, spreading or reinforcing an akin but yet differenciated component ('caucasian' << drift in mountains) southwards – History tell us about these colonizations from North in Near-Eastern after Neolithic – why not a 'gedrosia' taste among Elamits and even Sumerians?
    I confess I prefer the northern route!

    have a good evening all of you - I'm sorry, it is my aperitive time!

  21. #46
    martiko martiko's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-01-14
    Posts
    213

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-DF100
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T1a1

    Ethnic group
    european : basqueR1b/IberianI2b
    Country: France



    MOESAN you have good one ideas there!
    And I top up in your idea that all DF27 group can be language IE was speaker of a prototype language of Basque, and as forms around Kuban (maikopka), then according to your idea they could think that a part of the group migrant R1b would be crossed out of this zone of influence. and this group shall then have become DF27. Therefore this language which is also with form ouralic as language IE avoids the indo-Europeanization and rest in its initial form or has evolve in another way; while other personness are subjected influence and harmonization and goes towards a different evolution. Why not?
    And even if we seem ridiculous, I find very interesting and credible idea.

    Chance! it was found tzi (the homo-findus) and he is an old Sardinian of 3500 years or 3000 years (I forgot) and here is of the poor for theory of basco-Sardinian, and therefore since this theory take water gravely, further to analyses genetics: Nonexistent G2a1b and K1 of markers as much to the basques (see basques ancient, Aldaita necropole) as to Finnish, who have nothing commune there also!
    Very as you I am unseated when Eutest de Eurogens classifies basques customer genetic analyzes: half German/ Basque half. They can wonder where they took their reference Basque, Basque standard.

    I think that there is confusion between Basque and iberian and if it arrives within the same business company of statistics then c " a suffering is for us the customers.
    Iberian is I2a1 as 30 % of Sardinian are I2a1 and 30 % still of Sardinian are G2a3.

  22. #47
    Regular Member vandalorum's Avatar
    Join Date
    03-04-14
    Posts
    81

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J1

    Country: Spain



    There is a difference between Slavs and Slavic language. In Mozambique they speak portuguese for example. Russians only speak slavic, or only they are real Slavic (i do not know). Now some new for You, old for date of birth article: type on searcher engine: "LINGUISTIC CONNECTIONS BETWEEN BASQUES AND SLAVS (VENETI) IN ANTIQUITY " I am not allowed to post links.
    btw. I don't speak english, I just can read it.

  23. #48
    Elite member
    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    72
    Posts
    4,881

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by vandalorum View Post
    There is a difference between Slavs and Slavic language. In Mozambique they speak portuguese for example. Russians only speak slavic, or only they are real Slavic (i do not know). Now some new for You, old for date of birth article: type on searcher engine: "LINGUISTIC CONNECTIONS BETWEEN BASQUES AND SLAVS (VENETI) IN ANTIQUITY " I am not allowed to post links.
    btw. I don't speak english, I just can read it.
    Basque, I-E Veneti, Slavs


    Vandalorum: There is a difference between Slavs and Slavic language. In Mozambique they speak portuguese for example. Russians only speak slavic, or only they are real Slavic (i do not know). Now some new for You, old for date of birth article: type on searcher engine: "LINGUISTIC CONNECTIONS BETWEEN BASQUES AND SLAVS (VENETI) IN ANTIQUITY " I am not allowed to post links.
    btw. I don't speak english, I just can read it.



    Thanks for the title: I found the text and red it – interesting but full approximations -

    It has been written by Petr Jandàček about a book «Veneti, naši davni predniki» by Bor, Šavli, Tomažik (I did not red it!) -




    the short text's author wrote he made a list of basque, czech and slovenian modern words, avowing it lacks ancient forms of these languages -
    I respect the effort made to understand history of languages and every try deserves respect but we have to be very cautious in our tries -
    I glanced at this list, where words of every language (almost) are supposed to illustrate common roots, whatever the phonetic evolution; as very often in this kind of «work» where a person tries to prove a prejudicated thing I find a lot of incoherences -
    first remark, some basque signs (letters) are compared to numerous different signs in this two slavic languages, without explanation about the phonetic apparent discrepancies – I tried to find out the parts of the words which were to be compared because it was not explained by the author - for instance, basque z «corresponds» here to k / d / s / ž / z / h < g (czech-)
    basque x corresponds here to z / č / s -
    Do not forget words have very often prefixes and suffixes which can abuse us very easily...SO it is useful to do with some «???» when comparisons are only intuitive so unsure -
    I shall put here some «correspondances» I find very dubious, sorry for the boring aspect of my amateur «intervention»:
    &: the underlinings are of my own! (trying to understand the links)


    ° belly, Cz = Slov život Bsq zilbot : no explanation for the basque'L' ... the slavicŽcomes from *G, what about the basque Z ???
    ° knee, Cz = Slov koleno – Bsq belaunue: no explanation, I suppose the L-N part is in play here for him – but the slavic words came surely for the root KoL- germ- *KhwiL: wheel (rotule: *RoT-, fr- «roue») - so, for me, NO link with basque
    ° back, Cz zada, Slov odzadaj - Bsq atzealde: what kind of phonetic link, whatever the word part?
    ° limb, Cz hnata << gnat-, Slov ud - Bsq hanka : what link?- the basque word could be a romance << germanic loan, fr- hanche,haunch – all the way, no link between the words provided here -
    ° leg, foot,Cz noha, Slov noga - Bsq zanga : possible? Have we traces in ancient basque of a reduction *nog-/nag-/neg- (?) >> *-ng- or an inversion *nag- >> *ang-:very acrobatic indeed -
    ° elbow, Cz loket – Slov komolec (laket) – Bsq ukondo : what link???
    ° blackbird, Cz = Slov kos – Bsq zozo : what link???
    ° to dig a hole, Cz dolovati – Slov kopati (zajcmati?) - Bsq zulato : dol = zol ???
    ° hole, Cz dol, dul – Slov jama (luknja) – Bsq zulo : same ???
    ° toad (frog), Cz = Slov žaba – Bsq zapo : the slavic words come surely from *gab- / Bsq zapo could have some link with spanish sapo (toad)...
    ° saddle, Cz = Slov sedlo – Bsq zela : spanish silla, an I-E root? the root *sed- is very common among I-E languages with derivated meanings as «seat», «to sit», «sleep» fr- sedatif, «peace» (welsh hedd)... the basque word could very well be a new enough loanword?
    ° fat, grease, tallow, Cz sadlo – Slov salo – Bsq ziho : what link???
    ° sign, Cz = Slov znak – Bsq zeinu: the spanish (castillan) has seña / señal from whom the basque could be a loan – the slavic forms seems based upon I-E *g-n (to know, knowledge: kennen...)
    ° stool, Cz = Slov stol – Bsq taula : the slavic words are loans from germanic, and the basque one seems a loan to a romance dialectal form of tabla << tabula (Fr- table, taule, tôle)...
    ° aspect, appearance, Cz tvar – Slov način – Bsq taxu : what link???
    ° shot, Cz strela – Slov strel – Bsq tiro : ? the basque is surely a loan from spanish tiro -
    °to pull, to yank, to tug, Cz tahati (<< tagati) – Slov tirati – Bsq tiratu : basque and slovene seems loanwords, the czech one could be (perhaps) a loan to some germanic root (to take, tag)-
    ° small boat, Cz člun - Slov čoln – Bsq txalupa : the basque is very close to Fr- chaloupe, the slavic forms could be from an I-E *k-l- (a lot of derivated meanings!)
    ° old, Cz = Slov star – Bsq xahar : the slavic forms could be from ?**k-t--r (Celt-Britt- coth, kozh) or from a ??? *s-t (s-d) : see breton diasezet = Fr- rassis speaking about old bread ...?


    I shall° keep on if necessary this answer of mine which is a bit destructive I avow, but sometimes we need some «fixings», do we not?


    Here under, some explanation of the author where he seems a bit naive:
    [«Allowing ourselves one more bit of speculation regarding Roman writings, we lool at the words Druids, or the wood people who worshiped tree on the British Isles. Since the Romans generally used the printed letter V wheneever a U is called for, it is very likely that they wrote DRVIDES for Druides. But might it not be so that in this particular case they really wanted to use the letter V? In that case we are talking about Drvides, which immediately suggests the word drva or drevo. The connection between the name Druids and the tree worship then becomes much more logical. Granted this is stretching things a bit, but it is food for thought.] here the writer conceeds some «stretching»: it is true that I before thought this link 'druid' <> 'tree', 'drvo' (same I-E root) was evident (in celtic languages the comparison was even closer: 'derw', 'doiri' (?'doirbhi') = 'oak'), but 'druid' seems rather derivated from *dru-wid: 'wid' is the well known «idea»/ «video»/ «visu»/ «wise» (to see/to know and 'dru-' could be an intensive prefix according to some scholars; it is true we cannot exclude a 'dr°w' = «tree» («oak» among Celts)...but the 'V' is not the slavic ending for 'drvo' ...
    [... Most of the comparisons in the appendix are self-explanatory. One could write a story about many of the words but it is not our intent to belabor these. We xould include one, howevern namely the word for knee (belaunue) whic*h bears only a
    slight resemblance to the Slovenian word koleno(underlined by author). The interesting fact is that in both Basque (belaunaldi) and in Slavic pokolenje the word for generation stems from the root word for knee. While this occurs in Latin as well where genu (knee) and genus (ancestry) are related, one must ask just who borrowed what from whom. Ancient pre-Roman Venetic inscriptions clearly indicate that the word for wife (or woman) is gena later softened into the Slovenian word žena(a clear reference to ancestry)...] -
    Here we see the result of false-cuts in etymology: the root in slavic languages is kol- and not -len see germanic *hwîl- «wheel», «wiel» for the phonetic cognate and french rotule, castillan spanish rodilla «keecap», «patella» («small wheel») for the meaning... a digest of the two I-E words for wheel, by the fact - so there is NO link here between basque and slavi languages!


    My debuking job is not finished and I shall keep on, maybe – but I avow some comparisons are more amazing like the ones comprised in the text under:
    [... «Our initial attention was particularly focused on the word gori and its combinations, which in Basque describe many items dealing with heat of burning, as well as items dealing with elevation, highest praise, high passion, and higher authority. Strangely enough, or perhaps not so strangely, this is identical to what is used in the Slovenian language? The idenfinite verb «to burn» is in Basque actuallyerraustu, while words derived formgori refer perhaps more to heat. Nonetheless, the similarity is stunning. The word for flame is gar, which in Slovenian has been softened to žar (not found in any dictionary by myself). While gori is an adjective describing a burning item more correctly called goreči in Slovenian, the adjective goren has the Slovenian equivalent of najgorjši (supreme, exalted, most high), the iindefinite verb goritu = ogreti (to heat)...][... In Slavic languages the word gora also refers to mountain which, like a fire, rises upward to the sky...]
    &: it derserves more attention: some loanwords could have travelled between ancient languages, we know that; a pre-I-E *gar-/*kar seems present among a lot of languages roots in the whole Europe and outside it – Celt-britt- carreg/karreg «rock», «stone»! + karn/cairn?(I don't go farther to I-E *k-r >> krugell : «tumulus», «barrow» where the meaning of «circle», see hring/ring seems more evident than the one of «stone» (even if a stones circles could very well be figured out!) - maybe it will remain some positive founds in these comparisons even if a rapid glance to the remnants of the list did not secure me at all...


    just for the fun

  24. #49
    Elite member
    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    72
    Posts
    4,881

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    this answer could be transferred to a linguistic thread?

  25. #50
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    14-10-11
    Posts
    1,040

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    Yes
    MtDNA haplogroup
    Yes

    Ethnic group
    German
    Country: Germany



    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I put here some thoughts about autosomals poolings
    An additional piece to the Gedrosia puzzle:

    The ANE component further suggests the young age of Gedrosia in West Europe.
    ANE is a true component defined by ancient sample (Lazaridis et. al). There was no ANE in Bra1, Loschbourg or Stuttgart, neither was Gedrosia nor any other west-asian sister autosomals detected in ancient west european samples before. So we can be very sure that there was no Gedrosia in West europe at least before Bronze-age (maybe Megalithic, but I think it is probably too old already).
    But contemporary Scotland and French Basque show high ANE. Scotland has even a peak next after Estonia and French Basque represent a peak compared to their surrounding populations. ANE in Scotland and Basque can not be very old (as opposed to ANE in NE-Europe and Scandinavia). ANE is also absent in Sardinia just like Gedrosia is.
    Therefore it is tempting to conclude a stong link between Atlantic-European ANE and Atlantic-European Gedrosia. Of course ANE is even stronger further east in Finns and Balts, but this is because ANE is much more ancient there (Motala) and because EEF is very sparse there.
    The Gedrosia at least in NW-Europe is very likely real. Probably also the Basque one is very real, although possibly with slightly different history than in Britain and less consistent.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •