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Thread: Basques not indoeuropeans?

  1. #51
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    An additional piece to the Gedrosia puzzle:

    The ANE component further suggests the young age of Gedrosia in West Europe.
    ANE is a true component defined by ancient sample (Lazaridis et. al). There was no ANE in Bra1, Loschbourg or Stuttgart, neither was Gedrosia nor any other west-asian sister autosomals detected in ancient west european samples before. So we can be very sure that there was no Gedrosia in West europe at least before Bronze-age (maybe Megalithic, but I think it is probably too old already).
    But contemporary Scotland and French Basque show high ANE. Scotland has even a peak next after Estonia and French Basque represent a peak compared to their surrounding populations. ANE in Scotland and Basque can not be very old (as opposed to ANE in NE-Europe and Scandinavia). ANE is also absent in Sardinia just like Gedrosia is.
    Therefore it is tempting to conclude a stong link between Atlantic-European ANE and Atlantic-European Gedrosia. Of course ANE is even stronger further east in Finns and Balts, but this is because ANE is much more ancient there (Motala) and because EEF is very sparse there.
    The Gedrosia at least in NW-Europe is very likely real. Probably also the Basque one is very real, although possibly with slightly different history than in Britain and less consistent.
    Really good summary.


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  2. #52
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    after a copy-paste I don't find any more the original thread: I put this here because it concerns Basques even if only on the male side -aside this, I AGREE THE ANSWER OF EL HORSTO IS VERY INTERESTING (gedrosia: late evolved stem of partly ANE descendants?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Doesn't the fact that the Basque R1b clades are so "young", or downstream, make the latter possibility, or even the first , less likely?

    The other thing I've wondered about is whether there are matriarchal elements to Basque culture sufficient to explain the adoption of the language by surrounding males who might be incorporated into the community.
    Sorry, my poor slow brain needs time to read and understand all what is written in our threads - if late, my way of thinking can help (either received or criticized), maybe, for its general implications concerning downstreams of HGs: the "young" downstreams (true concerning absolute chronology) can be as "old" as older ones concerning the branching (by their form: it's to say, there are not always "daughters" of close upstream HGs, rather their younger "sisters", so not flooding from them - so they can be born by NEW local mutations when the number of older (upstream, common in this case to Celts or Italics or Basques, P312, by example) became high enough in certain region - as you know I have still some doubts about reality of precise datations so ...
    a few Y-R1b-P312 bearers, an already long time ago, can have occupied southern lands before gaining number (why? I lost again my cristal bowl) and seeing for that some new branchings - I avow a new SNP has more chances to prosper when conquiring new territories on a border or wave of advance; but also a recent mutation can profit on the cost of precedent ones when a small portion of the group is at play (the "great number law", as everyone knows, is a «no-law» for small numbers)-
    &: it seems to me that among Basques, special SNPs %s (the "basque" one and the "catalan one") are denser in front of P312 %s when compared to other Iberic regions: possible implication that only a small number of "foreign" males took foot in today Basque country, being THE Basques or visitors of the Basques ?

    All that is dynamics, but not always in the «long steady river» way -


    a-) a small number (males only or not) of Y-R-P312, I-Ean speaking, penetrate a far borderline region, and learn the colonized region language (Basque), being not numerous enough to dominate or impose its language to autochtonous people -
    a1) the mutation by time (new downstream) SNP occurs before fusion, but with delay caused by the small previous number – drift (small number too)- but if no differential selective advantage for Y-R-P312 or descendants we cannot explain, as in 'a2' the domination of today Y-R1b in Basque country
    a2) the mutation occurs after fusion, by time or favorized by the increasing in number: the problem here is that in this case too if no differential selective advantage for Y-R-P312 or descendants, we cannot explain the overwhelming domination of today Y-R1b in Basque country, if autochtonous Y-HGs increased too, in parallelic way (global demographic increase) ...
    b) a borderline subgroup (say P312 proto-Basques) with a language different from the larger group (P312 also but I-Eans -the material culture can be close enough, nevertheless - colonizes a new bordering region, keeping its own language, and, being small at first, knows with delay some mutation (neutral or not) which, occurred in a small starting population, undergoes a drift too – the demic growing comes after -
    & the refining of these possible interpretations requires a better knowledge of the respective downstream SNPs of Y-R1b in southern France – Iberia – I'll try to have precise data -
    &&: the explanation of dominant already numerous males (Celts I-Eans) adopting the languages of a conquered female population (Basques) is strange to my mind... even if every hypothesis deserves to be taken in account – the famous «maternal language» theory does not hold against historic evidences – other parameters (several) are in play -
    sometimes we consider a SNP bearers group as being an homogenous group geographically, but in fact we can have several groups with the same SNP which know different stories, when the iniitial group has known a demographic increase...

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    sorry, but it is the very question: how did Basques manage to keep their language when surrounded by IEans and incorporating "dominant" males, or why did IEans learn a new insignifiant nonIE language when they were the huge majority???
    the answer COULD be a first wave of y-R1b come from East met a numerous population of basquic speakers and were assimilated, and only after that came a new wave of Y-R1b IE or IEnized that progressively gained ground on the cost of Basques?... OR the first wave of Y-R1b WAS THE Basques and their more eastern remnants were IEnized!!!
    Language changes a lot faster than genes. Basques lack the beduoin component entirely, which may have come with IEs.

    In short I don't think that this hypothesis is really true, IE people had the impact of a fart in the wind, and were much more likely to have r1a than r1b anyway.

    Until we actually find ancient r1b majority tribe or area in ancient DNA we won't really know of its origins, it's pure speculation. But for every other group they try hard to argue it formed where it currently lies, except the biggest european y-dna group. The bias here is obvious.

    They also mark out clades like j1 and j2 and e1b as farmer clades, when clearly they are not. I2a is the biggest early farmer clade, but it is called a hunter gatherer clade. It's obvious that politics are the biggest factor in most anthropological theories.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akklaf View Post
    I have been reading that R1b haplogroup and proto-indoeuropean languages came at the same time to west-Europe. Today, one of the highest levels of R1b is found in Basque country, however Basque language is the unique non-indoeuropean language still living in west-europe.

    Does it means that R1b came to iberian peninsule (during Paleo-Mesolithic) several centuries before a second wave that finally brought indoeuropean lenguages and Bronze culture?

    Thanks you!
    the answer lies in the question.
    But who decreted the Basque or Euskara is not isa language or IE, in fact a rumor became truth in stone.
    The greatest linguist of the 19th century had given rating Basque, concluding that this language was an impossible mess; and thus he left the field open to fanciful.
    No serious linguist ventures to classify definitively.
    Made it clear that this is not an isolated language, or a genetically isolated people.
    The real difference Basque or Euskara with IE in its declination with the excessive use of the ergative, and if one day it turned out that the old IE languages ​​commonly used in ergative then the debate would end .
    It is interesting to note that there are common elements between Basque and Tocharian are thousands of miles apart but that is not common linguistic device items between Basque and presue Iberians who live in the same territory

  5. #55
    martiko martiko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Doesn't the fact that the Basque R1b clades are so "young", or downstream, make the latter possibility, or even the first , less likely?

    The other thing I've wondered about is whether there are matriarchal elements to Basque culture sufficient to explain the adoption of the language by surrounding males who might be incorporated into the community.
    No, there is no matriarchal element to justify the contrary; Basque women are concerned and also the feminine elements pose the "mystery".
    Basque is unique because it is the only language we could say that it is IE or not IE. Instead the iberian proved not IE but not Basque.

    How could anyone believe that a taverse people throughout Europe and cla for many generations and without women, so without reproducing? in this case is that they came with the planes of the U.S. Air Force or charter leaving women and children in an unknown place ... Hahahah ...

  6. #56
    martiko martiko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicquarreler View Post
    Oops, I didn't mean to step on your idea, Lebrok. I hadn't read your response when I wrote mine. Sorry about that... by the way when is the last time we both agreed on something? You know it must be true based on this rare event alone. :)
    but then why the English, French, German and Scandinavian, do not speak Basque?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    Do u have any real sources to say Basque culture is matriarchal.
    Basque culture is derived from Celt culture and we know Celt culture is matriarchal, all you have to do is read the Celt wikipedia page :)

    Gender and sexual norms


    Reconstruction of a German Iron Age Celtic warrior's garments


    According to Aristotle, most "belligerent nations" were strongly influenced by their women, but the Celts were unusual because their men openly preferred male lovers (Politics II 1269b).[78] H. D. Rankin in Celts and the Classical World notes that "Athenaeus echoes this comment (603a) and so does Ammianus (30.9). It seems to be the general opinion of antiquity."[79] In book XIII of his Deipnosophists, the Roman Greek rhetorician and grammarian Athenaeus, repeating assertions made by Diodorus Siculus in the 1st century BC (Bibliotheca historica 5:32), wrote that Celtic women were beautiful but that the men preferred to sleep together. Diodorus went further, stating that "the young men will offer themselves to strangers and are insulted if the offer is refused". Rankin argues that the ultimate source of these assertions is likely to be Poseidonius and speculates that these authors may be recording male "bonding rituals".[80]
    The sexual freedom of women in Britain was noted by Cassius Dio:[81]
    ... a very witty remark is reported to have been made by the wife of Argentocoxus, a Caledonian, to Julia Augusta. When the empress was jesting with her, after the treaty, about the free intercourse of her sex with men in Britain, she replied: "We fulfill the demands of nature in a much better way than do you Roman women; for we consort openly with the best men, whereas you let yourselves be debauched in secret by the vilest." Such was the retort of the British woman.
    Cassius Dio
    There are instances recorded where women participated both in warfare and in kingship, although they were in the minority in these areas. Plutarch reports that Celtic women acted as ambassadors to avoid a war among Celts chiefdoms in the Po valley during the 4th century BC.[82]
    Very few reliable sources exist regarding Celtic views towards gender divisions and societal status, though some archaeological evidence does suggest that their views towards gender roles may differ from contemporary and less egalitarian classical counterparts of the Roman era.[83][84]
    There are some general indications from Iron Age burial sites in the Champagne and Bourgogne regions of Northeastern France suggesting that women may have had roles in combat during the earlier La Tène period. However, the evidence is far from conclusive.[85] Examples of individuals buried with both female jewellery and weaponry have been identified, such as the Vix Grave, and there are questions about the gender of some skeletons that were buried with warrior assemblages. However, it has been suggested that "the weapons may indicate rank instead of masculinity".[86]
    Among the insular Celts, there is a greater amount of historic documentation to suggest warrior roles for women. In addition to commentary by Tacitus about Boudica, there are indications from later period histories that also suggest a more substantial role for "women as warriors", in symbolic if not actual roles. Posidonius and Strabo described an island of women where men could not venture for fear of death, and where the women ripped each other apart.[87] Other writers, such as Ammianus Marcellinus and Tacitus, mentioned Celtic women inciting, participating in, and leading battles.[88] Poseidonius' anthropological comments on the Celts had common themes, primarily primitivism, extreme ferocity, cruel sacrificial practices, and the strength and courage of their women.[89]
    Under Brehon Law, which was written down in early Medieval Ireland after conversion to Christianity, a woman had the right to divorce her husband and gain his property if he was unable to perform his marital duties due to impotence, obesity, homosexual inclination or preference for other women.[90]



    The obvious truth here is that R1b has nothing to do with the spread of Indo-European languages. Indo-European languages were spread by R1a, which is why we see Indo European in India, along with R1a, but not R1b. No scholar anywhere associates R1b with Indo Europeans, but there is a standing theory linking it to R1a. The whole R1b=Indo European thing is just a bullshit fantasy existing only on this site. Its unfortunate as the maps are pretty good otherwise.

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