Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 57

Thread: Basques not indoeuropeans?

  1. #1
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    05-09-13
    Location
    Madrid
    Posts
    4

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-S21 (Z331)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1t

    Country: Spain - Madrid



    Basques not indoeuropeans?

    I have been reading that R1b haplogroup and proto-indoeuropean languages came at the same time to west-Europe. Today, one of the highest levels of R1b is found in Basque country, however Basque language is the unique non-indoeuropean language still living in west-europe.

    Does it means that R1b came to iberian peninsule (during Paleo-Mesolithic) several centuries before a second wave that finally brought indoeuropean lenguages and Bronze culture?

    Thanks you!

  2. #2
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    05-09-13
    Location
    Madrid
    Posts
    4

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-S21 (Z331)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1t

    Country: Spain - Madrid



    ups, sorry... This question shouldn´t be here.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Fire Haired's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-06-13
    Posts
    689

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Df27(Spain)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2(Prussia)

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic, Latino(~6%)
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by Akklaf View Post
    I have been reading that R1b haplogroup and proto-indoeuropean languages came at the same time to west-Europe. Today, one of the highest levels of R1b is found in Basque country, however Basque language is the unique non-indoeuropean language still living in west-europe.

    Does it means that R1b came to iberian peninsule (during Paleo-Mesolithic) several centuries before a second wave that finally brought indoeuropean lenguages and Bronze culture?

    Thanks you!
    It is alot more complicated than that. proto Germanic Italo Celtic languages which are a branch of Indo European languages arrived in central Germany about 5,000ybp with Y DNa R1b1a2a1 L51 and R1b1a2a1a L11. U should click on this Germanic Italo Celts. It explains alot also u should look at Eupedia's R1b page. The language family that Basque are apart of used to be alot more spread out in western coast of France. Aquitanian language

    Here is a quote from Julies Caesar where he talks about Aquitania
    All Gaul is divided into three parts, one of which the Belgae inhabit, the Aquitani another, those who in their own language are called Celts, in ours Gauls, the third.All these differ from each other in language, customs and laws.
    The Garonne River separates the Gauls from the Aquitani; the River Marne and the River Seine separate them from the Belgae.
    Of all these, the Belgae are the bravest, because they are furthest from the civilisation and refinement of (our) Province, and merchants least frequently resort to them, and import those things which tend to effeminate the mind; and they are the nearest to the Germani, who dwell beyond the Rhine, with whom they are continually waging war; for which reason the Helvetii also surpass the rest of the Gauls in valour, as they contend with the Germani in almost daily battles, when they either repel them from their own territories, or themselves wage war on their frontiers. One part of these, which it has been said that the Gauls occupy, takes its beginning at the River Rhone; it is bounded by the Garonne River, the Atlantic Ocean, and the territories of the Belgae; it borders, too, on the side of the Sequani and the Helvetii, upon the River Rhine, and stretches toward the north.
    The Belgae rises from the extreme frontier of Gaul, extend to the lower part of the River Rhine; and look toward the north and the rising sun.
    Aquitania extends from the Garonne to the Pyrenees and to that part of the Atlantic (Bay of Biscay) which is near Spain: it looks between the setting of the sun, and the north star.




    Julius Caesar, Commentarii de Bello Gallico, Book I, chapter 1
    Since everyone else around the Aquitenni were Celts it should not be a surprise basque have so much Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a1 P312/S116. The Celts probably just adopted the native language not that big of a deal or surprise. They didn't know about Y DNa or Indo European languages they did not intentionally spread their language or y dna they would be fine with adopting a native language and after a few generations would have no idea they adopted a native language they would think it was their own. It gets annoying how people over react about Basque having so much R1b and not speaking a indo European language they are a little little ethnic group surrounded by Indo Europeans.

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    04-01-12
    Posts
    125


    Country: Poland



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    It is alot more complicated than that. proto Germanic Italo Celtic languages which are a branch of Indo European languages arrived in central Germany about 5,000ybp with Y DNa R1b1a2a1 L51 and R1b1a2a1a L11. U should click on this Germanic Italo Celts. It explains alot also u should look at Eupedia's R1b page. The language family that Basque are apart of used to be alot more spread out in western coast of France.
    What kind of classification of indoeuropean languages are you using? I have never saw such group like germano-italo-celtic. As far as I know, sub families of Indo-European languages are: Italo-Celtic, Graeco-Aryan, northern (Baltic, Germanic and Slavic).
    If this branch of IE language arrived in CE where did it emerge?
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    Since everyone else around the Aquitenni were Celts it should not be a surprise basque have so much Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a1 P312/S116. The Celts probably just adopted the native language not that big of a deal or surprise. They didn't know about Y DNa or Indo European languages they did not intentionally spread their language or y dna they would be fine with adopting a native language and after a few generations would have no idea they adopted a native language they would think it was their own. It gets annoying how people over react about Basque having so much R1b and not speaking a indo European language they are a little little ethnic group surrounded by Indo Europeans.
    Not everyone around Aquitaine were Celts, there also were Iberians leaving from Pyrenees to southern cost of peninsula. And interesting thing is that in today Catalonia R1b has higher frequency than in central and west part of region where IE lived. One more interesting fact is that Etruscans and Raeti were not IE and they lived in areas with R1b reaching local maximum. Supporting theory that has huge gaps and needs some complicated explanation which is unprovable gets to be annoying. So I remind you about ockham's razor.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Fire Haired's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-06-13
    Posts
    689

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Df27(Spain)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2(Prussia)

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic, Latino(~6%)
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by matbir View Post
    What kind of classification of indoeuropean languages are you using? I have never saw such group like germano-italo-celtic. As far as I know, sub families of Indo-European languages are: Italo-Celtic, Graeco-Aryan, northern (Baltic, Germanic and Slavic).
    If this branch of IE language arrived in CE where did it emerge?
    There is no such thing as Greco Aryan those were just hypothesis. Actulley Y DNa and archaeology points Balto Slavic and Indo Iranian language being the most related. So if anything it breaks down into Balto Slavic Indo Iranian. What i am saying is GErmanic and Italo Celtic languages have been seperate for so long over 4,000 years tht it is hard to find the linguistic evidence they form the same family. But archaeology and Y DNa points to them being connected also in language.

    Quote Originally Posted by matbir View Post
    Not everyone around Aquitaine were Celts, there also were Iberians leaving from Pyrenees to southern cost of peninsula. And interesting thing is that in today Catalonia R1b has higher frequency than in central and west part of region where IE lived. One more interesting fact is that Etruscans and Raeti were not IE and they lived in areas with R1b reaching local maximum. Supporting theory that has huge gaps and needs some complicated explanation which is unprovable gets to be annoying. So I remind you about ockham's razor.
    The Iberian speakers lived far south from Aquitaine everyone surrounding them was Celtic. We don't need a long explanation people adopt diff languages. They were surrounded by italic speakers that's why and were eventulley conquered and resettled by Italic speakers. People are so stubborn with connecting Y DNA and Indo Europeans when sometimes it is so obvious. The R1b in Bell Beaker totally matches up with what people with my opinon say. Bell Beaker was conquered and adopted by Germanic Italo Celts. Which is why Unetice culture ancestral to Italic and Celtic tribes offically is decended from bell BEaker same with NOrdic bronze age culture nacestral to Germanic tribes. Also 31 Y DNa samples from Neolithic west Europe not one had R1b even 22 5,000 year old ones from southwestern france were it is 80% today. R1b more specifally R1b1a2a1 L51 and R1b1a2a1a L11 arrived in west Europe in the bronze age 5,000ybp it is not Neloithic.

  6. #6
    Elite member
    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    72
    Posts
    4,836

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    . ...It gets annoying how people over react about Basque having so much R1b and not speaking a indo European language they are a little little ethnic group surrounded by Indo Europeans.
    sorry, but it is the very question: how did Basques manage to keep their language when surrounded by IEans and incorporating "dominant" males, or why did IEans learn a new insignifiant nonIE language when they were the huge majority???
    the answer COULD be a first wave of y-R1b come from East met a numerous population of basquic speakers and were assimilated, and only after that came a new wave of Y-R1b IE or IEnized that progressively gained ground on the cost of Basques?... OR the first wave of Y-R1b WAS THE Basques and their more eastern remnants were IEnized!!!

  7. #7
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    19,194


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    sorry, but it is the very question: how did Basques manage to keep their language when surrounded by IEans and incorporating "dominant" males, or why did IEans learn a new insignifiant nonIE language when they were the huge majority???
    the answer COULD be a first wave of y-R1b come from East met a numerous population of basquic speakers and were assimilated, and only after that came a new wave of Y-R1b IE or IEnized that progressively gained ground on the cost of Basques?... OR the first wave of Y-R1b WAS THE Basques and their more eastern remnants were IEnized!!!
    Doesn't the fact that the Basque R1b clades are so "young", or downstream, make the latter possibility, or even the first , less likely?

    The other thing I've wondered about is whether there are matriarchal elements to Basque culture sufficient to explain the adoption of the language by surrounding males who might be incorporated into the community.

  8. #8
    Advisor LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,295

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The other thing I've wondered about is whether there are matriarchal elements to Basque culture sufficient to explain the adoption of the language by surrounding males who might be incorporated into the community.
    Exactly my thoughts too. Let me prove same point based on my linguistic observation.
    For the person who doesn't speak either Basque or Spanish, they both sound rather similar, pronunciation of sound, melody and rhythm wise. I'm not saying identical, but very similar to non-speakers. It makes me conclude that the substratum population of both languages was the same, pre IE, possibly Basque/Aquitanian family.
    Also the complicated Basque grammar denotes being the original mother tongue langue. In contrast Modern Spanish is simplified Latin language. When a person learns a second language from strangers, with limited contact to original speakers and not in school environment, the grammar will always get simplified and this person will pronounce words with "funny accent" (mother tongue accent).
    What I mean is that Basque always was an original mother tongue. Spanish is learned language from Romans with local pronunciation and simplifications.

    Edited:
    In this case proto-Basque language might have been original Iberian language of mt haplogroup H (H1 and H3) and U women and their I2a men.
    Last edited by LeBrok; 22-09-13 at 03:45.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,117

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    There is no such thing as Greco Aryan those were just hypothesis. Actulley Y DNa and archaeology points Balto Slavic and Indo Iranian language being the most related. So if anything it breaks down into Balto Slavic Indo Iranian. What i am saying is GErmanic and Italo Celtic languages have been seperate for so long over 4,000 years tht it is hard to find the linguistic evidence they form the same family. But archaeology and Y DNa points to them being connected also in language.



    The Iberian speakers lived far south from Aquitaine everyone surrounding them was Celtic. We don't need a long explanation people adopt diff languages. They were surrounded by italic speakers that's why and were eventulley conquered and resettled by Italic speakers. People are so stubborn with connecting Y DNA and Indo Europeans when sometimes it is so obvious. The R1b in Bell Beaker totally matches up with what people with my opinon say. Bell Beaker was conquered and adopted by Germanic Italo Celts. Which is why Unetice culture ancestral to Italic and Celtic tribes offically is decended from bell BEaker same with NOrdic bronze age culture nacestral to Germanic tribes. Also 31 Y DNa samples from Neolithic west Europe not one had R1b even 22 5,000 year old ones from southwestern france were it is 80% today. R1b more specifally R1b1a2a1 L51 and R1b1a2a1a L11 arrived in west Europe in the bronze age 5,000ybp it is not Neloithic.
    Aquitaine is modern gascony area. And gascon language is associated with ancient basque dialect.
    Gascon is also a branch of occitan, which derives from ancient gallic ( southern france ) and not celtic
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gascon_dialect

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquitanian_language

    So, logically the Aquitainians where celtinized late in their history
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  10. #10
    Marquis
    Join Date
    10-04-13
    Posts
    2,120

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a1a3 (T-PF7443)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Italy



    Linguistically no; the basque do not speak an indo-European tongue, which is odd, because they fit the genetic profile.

  11. #11
    Banned nordicwarrior's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-10-12
    Posts
    958

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 (M253)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    European Mix
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Doesn't the fact that the Basque R1b clades are so "young", or downstream, make the latter possibility, or even the first , less likely?

    The other thing I've wondered about is whether there are matriarchal elements to Basque culture sufficient to explain the adoption of the language by surrounding males who might be incorporated into the community.
    YES. This explanation is so simple, so obvious... I'm not sure why mainstream experts avoid this conclusion. The Basque language was introduced by the maternal sides (we've all heard the phrase "mother tongue") and the paternal sides brought the DNA, specifically the younger branches of R1b.

  12. #12
    Banned nordicwarrior's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-10-12
    Posts
    958

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 (M253)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    European Mix
    Country: United States



    Oops, I didn't mean to step on your idea, Lebrok. I hadn't read your response when I wrote mine. Sorry about that... by the way when is the last time we both agreed on something? You know it must be true based on this rare event alone. :)

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    21-07-13
    Posts
    50

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1B
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    Germanic-Slavic Hybrid
    Country: United States



    The simplest answer is that the folks who introduced R1B into Europe, circa 3,000 bc, were not speakers of an Indo-European language.

    2,000 years later (around 1,000 bc), the R1B carrying Western Indo-Europeans (Germans/Celts/Italians) burst onto the scene. They were probably "born" in Central Europe, adopting an Indo-European language from mixing with IE Corded Ware folk to the East. These R1B heavy IE-speaking peoples exploded from Central Europe and conquered the West, South, and North. The process was still not complete during historical times. When the Romans entered Iberia, half the peninsula was IE speaking (Celts) while half was speaking something other (Basque, Iberian, etc.) And to show how language can shift, the Iberian Peninsula ended up adopting neither of these languages, instead they speak an Italic dialect today (obviously).

    I guess what I'm trying to say is that the Indo-Europeanization of Western Europe might have been a very recent phenomenon, beginning sometime around 800 bc and ending in modern times. The Basques are a remnant of an earlier language strata. As for their R1B being a newer downstream clad, I think this is a given, considering peoples are always evolving. All it takes is one conquering clad to go through a language shift (R1b males adopting IE in Central Europe) and it could seem like all R1B must have been IE from the beginning. But it might not be the case, if that makes sense.

    Of course this is all assumption, but that's what discussion on a forum is all about, right?
    Last edited by Tone; 22-09-13 at 23:51.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Fire Haired's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-06-13
    Posts
    689

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Df27(Spain)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2(Prussia)

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic, Latino(~6%)
    Country: USA - California



    Do u have any real sources to say Basque culture is matriarchal. because i doubt they have many traditions going back 3,000 years almost no one in Europe does. Culture changes so much and Rome and civilization all that stuff completely changed culture acroos Europe. I doubt the way basque live is that much different from Spanish and French near them. So if they are matriarchal that is not evidence for why they don't speak a Celtic language. I doubt them being matrchial would effect what language they speak that much do u have any reasons I think it was random the same happened in southern Iberia and languages relate dto Basque used to be spoken in most of the western coast of France.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Fire Haired's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-06-13
    Posts
    689

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Df27(Spain)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2(Prussia)

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic, Latino(~6%)
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by Tone View Post
    The simplest answer is that the folks who introduced R1B into Europe, circa 3,000 bc, were not speakers of an Indo-European language.

    2,000 years later (around 1,000 bc), the R1B carrying Western Indo-Europeans (Germans/Celts/Italians) burst onto the scene. They were probably "born" in Central Europe, adopting an Indo-European language from mixing with IE Corded Ware folk to the East. These R1B heavy IE-speaking peoples exploded from Central Europe and conquered the West, South, and North. The process was still not complete during historical times. When the Romans entered Iberia, half the peninsula was IE speaking (Celts) while half was speaking something other (Basque, Iberian, etc.) And to show how language can shift, the Iberian Peninsula ended up adopting neither of these languages, instead they speak an Italic dialect today (obviously).

    Of course this is all assumption, but that's what discussion on a forum is all about, right?
    I strongly dis agree u are making many big assumptions. please click on The spread of R1b1a2a1a L11 Germanic Italo Celts. And look at FTDNA R1b page. Besides Corded ware almost deifntley spoke proto Balto Slavic if it came from Corded ware which is hard to explain why aren't they in the same family.

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    04-01-12
    Posts
    125


    Country: Poland



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    There is no such thing as Greco Aryan those were just hypothesis. Actulley Y DNa and archaeology points Balto Slavic and Indo Iranian language being the most related. So if anything it breaks down into Balto Slavic Indo Iranian. What i am saying is GErmanic and Italo Celtic languages have been seperate for so long over 4,000 years tht it is hard to find the linguistic evidence they form the same family. But archaeology and Y DNa points to them being connected also in language.
    1. Do you have any scientific paper refuting Graeco-Aryan branch of IE?
    1. How Y DNA is able to make distinction between language groups? Insane, isn’t it?
    2. Archeology shows that Corded Ware culture is the best candidate for spreading IE languages.
    3. How Celtic and Germanic could have been separate for 4 millennia, while they had contact from IV/V century BC on, while IE languages probably are driven from Yamna culture(3600-2300)?
    4. All linguistic theories are about similarities. If Germanic languages have more in common with Slavic and Baltic then with Celtic it is likely that Baltic Germanic and Slavic are descendants of the same branch of IE. Satem innovation which was late one has clinal distribution, covering Indo-Iranian languages, Baltic and Slavic to lesser extent but independently, and left traces in proto-Germanic language. Of course this suggest that at the time of spreading satem innovation IE languages still had dialect continuity from central Asia to Scandinavia, what is next evidence of Northern IE group.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    The Iberian speakers lived far south from Aquitaine everyone surrounding them was Celtic. We don't need a long explanation people adopt diff languages. They were surrounded by italic speakers that's why and were eventulley conquered and resettled by Italic speakers. People are so stubborn with connecting Y DNA and Indo Europeans when sometimes it is so obvious. The R1b in Bell Beaker totally matches up with what people with my opinon say. Bell Beaker was conquered and adopted by Germanic Italo Celts. Which is why Unetice culture ancestral to Italic and Celtic tribes offically is decended from bell BEaker same with NOrdic bronze age culture nacestral to Germanic tribes. Also 31 Y DNa samples from Neolithic west Europe not one had R1b even 22 5,000 year old ones from southwestern france were it is 80% today. R1b more specifally R1b1a2a1 L51 and R1b1a2a1a L11 arrived in west Europe in the bronze age 5,000ybp it is not Neloithic.
    5. Languages of Iberian peninsula: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...eria_300BC.svg - surrounded? I don’t think so.
    6. First of all, R1b has very week connection to IE languages. It only correlates with historical Celtic expansions and in lesser extent with modern Germanic nations. There theory that explains non-IE R1b phenomenon, it was presented by Tone in this topic.
    7. Why people are so stubborn? I advise you to listen Professor James Mallory abut “Indo-European Dispersals and the Eurasian Steppe” - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0HCs6PVnzI

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Doesn't the fact that the Basque R1b clades are so "young", or downstream, make the latter possibility, or even the first , less likely?
    How old is P312 and its main subclades ( L21, U152)?



    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    Linguistically no; the basque do not speak an indo-European tongue, which is odd, because they fit the genetic profile.
    But Gascon dialect have Basque substrate. Asking in that way, I could say - why surrounding population is IE while they fit genetic profile of Basque?



    Quote Originally Posted by nordicquarreler View Post
    YES. This explanation is so simple, so obvious... I'm not sure why mainstream experts avoid this conclusion. The Basque language was introduced by the maternal sides (we've all heard the phrase "mother tongue") and the paternal sides brought the DNA, specifically the younger branches of R1b.
    It is not simple, because More advanced culture introduce no genetic substrate without cultural domination. This scenario contradicts obvious rules. When developed culture is spreading around it is reasonable to expect cultural assimilation without genetic influence or population movement with genetic and cultural assimilation. Genetic contribution without cultural assimilation needs many conditions to be fulfilled, while Basques are not the only one non-IE in Western Europe( Iberians, Etruscans, Raeti).


    If you would like to know what kind of problems do experts have click on link posted above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    I strongly dis agree u are making many big assumptions. please click on The spread of R1b1a2a1a L11 Germanic Italo Celts. And look at FTDNA R1b page. Besides Corded ware almost deifntley spoke proto Balto Slavic if it came from Corded ware which is hard to explain why aren't they in the same family.
    I have problem with understanding your last sentence, who is not in the same family?


    Don’t be too quick in making conclusions, at the time of Corded Ware (2900 – 2350 BC) we rather have IE dialect continuum then groups as nowadays.
    Celts are descendants of Hallstatt and La Tene culture, before spread of this cultures R1b in Western Europe could have been non-IE.

  17. #17
    Elite member
    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    72
    Posts
    4,836

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Exactly my thoughts too. Let me prove same point based on my linguistic observation.
    For the person who doesn't speak either Basque or Spanish, they both sound rather similar, pronunciation of sound, melody and rhythm wise. I'm not saying identical, but very similar to non-speakers. It makes me conclude that the substratum population of both languages was the same, pre IE, possibly Basque/Aquitanian family.
    Also the complicated Basque grammar denotes being the original mother tongue langue. In contrast Modern Spanish is simplified Latin language. When a person learns a second language from strangers, with limited contact to original speakers and not in school environment, the grammar will always get simplified and this person will pronounce words with "funny accent" (mother tongue accent).
    What I mean is that Basque always was an original mother tongue. Spanish is learned language from Romans with local pronunciation and simplifications.

    Edited:
    In this case proto-Basque language might have been original Iberian language of mt haplogroup H (H1 and H3) and U women and their I2a men.
    I agree "spanish" language (to be more precise 'castillan') has a basque "footprint" phonetically, different from other romance iberic languages (Portuguese, galician , catalan and surely even 'mozarabic" languages are different concerning more than a phoentic trait -

  18. #18
    Elite member
    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    72
    Posts
    4,836

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Doesn't the fact that the Basque R1b clades are so "young", or downstream, make the latter possibility, or even the first , less likely?

    The other thing I've wondered about is whether there are matriarchal elements to Basque culture sufficient to explain the adoption of the language by surrounding males who might be incorporated into the community.
    I agree it is confusing- but what proves us Basque language ("basquic"!) is so old in W-Europe?
    I confess my trouble here: but I have some difficulties to think basque women "absorbed" and "educated" I-E males (husbands) coming from a ruling and triumphing caste, you see? - a >> 85% of foreign males Y-R1b is very hard to swallow down, for I think
    , even with drift - and how old is R1b in W-Europe? only Bronze Ages??? I' m not so sure at this stage... was Bronze Age so prolific demographically speaking? I wait more proofs
    your remark is full of sense nevertheless -
    by the way, basque R1B's come from P310 if I don't mistake: how old is P310 ? I don't know...

  19. #19
    Banned nordicwarrior's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-10-12
    Posts
    958

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 (M253)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    European Mix
    Country: United States



    We are applying modern day population dynamics to the situation that existed thousands of years ago on land that was populated with a tiny fraction of inhabitants. This maternal language contribution could have occurred over a couple of families out in the boonies. When you refer to "ruling castes" it does seem unlikely to have the women take over speech patterns, nevertheless the Basque language is there and it's not related to I.E. Mother tongue makes the most sense.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Nobody1's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-03-13
    Posts
    1,033


    Country: Germany - Baden-Wurttemberg



    Neither was the Basque father tongue Indo-European; Indo-European societies were patriarchal societies;
    Therefor: Basque (and ancient Aquitani and Iberian) being non-Indo-European suggests that their fathers were also non-Indo-Europeans;

  21. #21
    Advisor LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,295

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Neither was the Basque father tongue Indo-European; Indo-European societies were patriarchal societies;
    Therefor: Basque (and ancient Aquitani and Iberian) being non-Indo-European suggests that their fathers were also non-Indo-Europeans;
    Granted. The only question is which of new Basque R1b fathers where IE. All of them or just the last Celtic wave?

  22. #22
    Tabaccus Maximus Tabaccus Maximus's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-12
    Posts
    169

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - SRY 2627
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1a

    Ethnic group
    Galo-Germanic Atlantic Fringe
    Country: USA - Texas



    I think it is highly doubtful that either uniparental marker commonly held by Basques today reflect a pre-Chalcolithic relict population. Let me say it bluntly, Basque people are genetically mostly Indo-European or at least appear so when looking exclusively at uniparental markers.

    So the question I would ask is if the autosomal ancestry of Basque people mismatches that of the uniparental ancestry. It's not a question of whether this happens in nature, because it does happen and often, but to what degree has it happened in Basques and is there a hidden component in Basques that make them racially unique.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Nobody1's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-03-13
    Posts
    1,033


    Country: Germany - Baden-Wurttemberg



    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    The only question is which of new Basque R1b fathers where IE.
    None of them;

    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    All of them or just the last Celtic wave?
    I do not know of a Keltic wave that ever reached the basques;

  24. #24
    Regular Member Fire Haired's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-06-13
    Posts
    689

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Df27(Spain)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2(Prussia)

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic, Latino(~6%)
    Country: USA - California



    i dont get what is hard to understand Celts probablly 3,500-4,500ybp conquered west europe with mainly R1b Df27 majority in France and Iberia with minority R1b L21 while in British isles those Celts had majority R1b L21 and minority R1b Df27. Some Celts in France Iberia area adopted the native language for whatever reason. So modern Basque paternal lines are vast majority under Italo Celtic R1b S116 around 80% like Celts of the British isles and western coast of France. I have just learned even though my surname is British probably Scotland or England i most likley had R1b Df27. And that it is probably about 40% in western France and 10-20% in Scotland and Ireland(R1b Df27 not just in Iberia)

    Basque in aust dna tests show to be most similar to Neolithic farmer samples Otzie (Alps Italy 5,300ybp) and Gok4(south Swedan 5,000ybp).Because of their very high amount of med in whatever test like globe13 while they hav very little west asian and southwest asian(which also came in Neloithic) and below average for north Euro(pre Neloithic Europe) compared to Spain and France. I guess that would mean in ancestry overall they are very Neloithic. BAsque do seem to be kind of unique in aust dna, mtdna(high amount of H1, H3, and V), and Y DNA very low G2a, E1b1b, and J1 compared to surrounding FRench and Spainish. And highest or close to hiighest amount of I2a1a M26 besides Sardine.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Nobody1's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-03-13
    Posts
    1,033


    Country: Germany - Baden-Wurttemberg



    DF27 is higher (much higher, the highest) in the Iberian [non-Indo-European] areas than in the Celt-Iberian [Indo-European Keltic mix] areas; Looks like the non-Indo-European Bell-Beaker culture zone; but thats prob. just me;

    Basques are not Neolithic; why would they be?
    They have nothing to do with GÖK4 and ÖTZI; they are not like the Sardines;
    And pre-Indo-European in the Western (Atlantic Fringe) Europe does not equal Neolithic; Bell Beaker (Chalcolithic) is just fine for pre-Indo-European and thats also the first time R1b pops up - not U106 of course;

    I view R1b to be both non-Indo-European as well as Indo-European depending on the sub-clade (lineage) just like R1a; with U106 and U152 def. Indo-European;

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •