Kosovo

[Garrick]

My grades (if you look closely)i have take to Garrik when said "The wages in Serbia are about 700 Euros."
What totally wrong, that's all.

You have not person for serious talks because you twisting words of interlocutor.

For example where I wrote that average salary in Serbia is 700 euros.

I give what I wrote:

For example if someone has salary in Serbia 700 euros and his colleague in another country 900 euros, but in that country all is more expensive then the question is who is in a better position.

Average salaries Balkans (with Wikipedia):

Serbia $479
Bulgaria (EU) $414
Romania (EU) $485
Macedonia $458
Albania $264
Montenegro $618

You can see Serbia is similar as Romania.

But Albania is last, way behind Bulgaria.

You write:

He said that Serbia is better than the other countries of the Balkans.

Where did I write this sentence?

Why don't you my words with quote?

This, you transmit false.

In that way discussion with you is impossible.

Find an example that I incorrectly transferred your words. I try to respect each participant, although you can see that your Albanian compatriots unjustly give me minuses for everything they do not like, regardless of true.

 

[Marko94]

You have not person for serious talks because you twisting words of interlocutor.

For example where I wrote that average salary in Serbia is 700 euros.

I give what I wrote:

I was talking about average salaries.
You said that based on the cost of living wages are high.
But it is not so, before Italy to adopt the euro with EUR 1,000 you could live.
The cost of living was low, and wages are too high.




The best position them those with low wages and low taxes.

You write:



Where did I write this sentence?

Why don't you my words with quote?

This, you transmit false.

In that way discussion with you is impossible.

Find an example that I incorrectly transferred your words. I try to respect each participant, although you can see that your Albanian compatriots unjustly give me minuses for everything they do not like, regardless of true.

You with your post confirms that Serbia is ahead of countries such as Albania and all those below them (FYROM, Bosnia and Montenegro).
You said that the weakness of the Balkans and Albania and without a source of accurate statistics.
So, with your comment only proves to be nationalist.
In this world we must be able to understand its limits.
In all my posts I only said that "It 's difficult to know which country is better than the other because there are many flaws in addition to corruption" (I speak for the Balkans).

 

[Ike]

LoL, this is getting funny

 

[Garrick]

I was talking about average salaries.
You said that based on the cost of living wages are high.
But it is not so, before Italy to adopt the euro with EUR 1,000 you could live.
The cost of living was low, and wages are too high.

The best position them those with low wages and low taxes.

You with your post confirms that Serbia is ahead of countries such as Albania and all those below them (FYROM, Bosnia and Montenegro).
You said that the weakness of the Balkans and Albania and without a source of accurate statistics.
So, with your comment only proves to be nationalist.
In this world we must be able to understand its limits.
In all my posts I only said that "It 's difficult to know which country is better than the other because there are many flaws in addition to corruption" (I speak for the Balkans).

Well, you change words. But you trying tag me as nationalist. Why do you do it?

For all there are data. You wonder that Balkans is in a difficult economic situation. Do you think that it is not true?

You wonder what I say that Albania is less developed than other Balkan countries. Yes, it is true too.

You are lucky, because Italy is much developed than Balkan countries. Balkans people (especially Albanians and Romanians) migrate to Italy, not vice verse.

You can check these claims, you can enter in IMF, WB etc. database and search what you want.

I repeat two set data.

GDP (PPP) per capita for Bulgaria, Serbia, Montenegro, Romania, Bosnia, Albania and Macedonia according IMF (Kosovo is 7,506), (intl. $):

69. Bulgaria, 14,103
76. Romania, 12,722
82. Montenegro, 11,610
84. Serbia, 10,722
87. Macedonia, 10,465
99. Bosnia, 8,127
100. Albania, 7,997


Salaries for same countries

Montenegro $618
Bosnia $558
Romania $485
Serbia $479
Macedonia $458
Bulgaria $414
Albania $264

Next time I will prepare migration rate. For example some countries can increase GDP (PPP) per capita if their population leaving the country at a high rate (you should look how many people emigrated from each Balkan country and you will be clear one of reason of jump GDP per capita in some countries).

And for economies of Balkan countries there are many texts, you can search and read. But it is easiest to belittle the participant how he doesn’t give materials.

Here are some articles about Balkan countries from 2009 to today.

From a global crisis to a Balkan crisis (2009)

http://www.diplomaticobserver.com/EN/belge/2-889/from-a-global-crisis-to-a-balkan-crisis.html

From recession to reform: The Western Balkans and the impacts of a double dip recession

http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/fe...n-balkans-and-impacts-of-double-dip-recession


Globalizing the Western Balkans, about organized crime (2012)

http://etudescaribeennes.revues.org/5871

„Developing and weak countries such as Kosovo, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Albania and Macedonia, with an underfunded and corrupt educational system, lack of clear norms and weak government institutions, have been unable to provide healthy environment for their youths who in turn have been an easy pray not only for criminal groups but also for Islamic fundamentalists.“

Regime uncertainty, the Balkans and the weak US recovery (2012)

http://marketmonetarist.com/2012/10/31/regime-uncertainty-the-balkans-and-the-weak-us-recovery/

IMF Serbian austerity measures and reaction of IMF (2013)

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=87936

I think this is enough for now.

You can see which position Albanian economy has in the Balkans.

And Kosovo economy is even worse from Albania (out of competition).

In the time Serbian province Kosovo was better economy than Albania.

 

[Marko94]

I don't know where have you take the information about GDP.
But the truth GDP (PPP) is that.

Bulgaria: 15,933 (2012)
Serbia: 11,085 (2012)
Albania: 9,231 (2012)
Montenegro: 11.800 (2012)
Romania: 16.58 (2012)

You're doing a compare it with a country that only 22 years, took a communism tightened.
You can not put in the same scale albania with the other countries of the Balkans.
Is like to compare the north korea (when it will end communism) with other countries of asia???
You know when it will end communism in Vietnam and North Korea will see many emigrants.
I'm just saying that Albania is different from the other countries of the Balkans, Albania comunism is like comunism of North Korea.

For salary I have ask to you.
But probably you want me to re-explain.
Serbia is the third country with the largest Italian factories in the world.
Do you know why so many? Because the cost of workers is low, so wages are lower than those of the Albanians.
Why can not you accept the truth?
If the cost of Albanian workers was about 269 euro then they would go to Albania to produce, but it is not.
I also said that the data is older than 3 years.

The Albanian emigration there was immediately after the end of communism, do not you understand it or not?
What do not you understand? Explain it.
And then the Albanian emigration is not your problem, is a problem of Albania and the Albanians.




The crisis has affected in particular the countries of southern Europe, then "Albania" is part of it.
In Italy many close factories for open in Serbia because the cost of workers is the lowest.
If wages were about 269, then these companies italian (are 500 and for repubblica are 1.100)would go to Albania.
Italian companies are in Serbia because wages are low.

The emigration because of communism there has been "locked" in Albania.
You once again put on the scales different countries.
If you want to make a comparison fouls between the countries of the ex-yugoslavia.


If in a parallel universe albania, Greece and Romania were not in Eastern Europe surely these countries would have a better future.
If Romania and Albania would not have had contacts with Russia in World War II would not become communist countries and would have been better.
The comunism was diffuse by "russian".

 

[Garrick]

GDP (PPP) per capita for Bulgaria, Serbia, Montenegro, Romania, Bosnia, Albania and Macedonia according IMF (Kosovo is 7,506), (intl. $):

69. Bulgaria, 14,103
76. Romania, 12,722
82. Montenegro, 11,610
84. Serbia, 10,722
87. Macedonia, 10,465
99. Bosnia, 8,127
100. Albania, 7,997

I don't know where have you take the information about GDP.
But the truth GDP (PPP) is that.

Bulgaria: 15,933 (2012)
Serbia: 11,085 (2012)
Albania: 9,231 (2012)
Montenegro: 11.800 (2012)
Romania: 16.58 (2012)

You can read about topic. I gave data of International Monetary Fund (IMF), usually people use the IMF data, you gave date of World Bank (WB). Methodologies are not same.

Who wants can see these data in Wikipedia (he/she does not have to enter in IMF or WB database)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

 

[Luan]

It's crazy how some Serbs still believe kosova will be Serbia, wile Albanians live in reality independent kosova. Can't wait to go back to my free country. Nothing Serbs can do about it.

 

[Marko94]

You can read about topic. I gave data of International Monetary Fund (IMF), usually people use the IMF data, you gave date of World Bank (WB). Methodologies are not same.

Who wants can see these data in Wikipedia (he/she does not have to enter in IMF or WB database)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

I have take form wikipedia.
I have write "Albania wiki" and i go to look the GDP.

 

[Garrick]

I have take form wikipedia.
I have write "Albania wiki" and i go to look the GDP.

It is no problem. We both gave information correctly. IMF and WB have different methodologies.

 

[Garrick]

It's crazy how some Serbs still believe kosova will be Serbia, wile Albanians live in reality independent kosova. Can't wait to go back to my free country. Nothing Serbs can do about it.

Kurds (Kurdish nation) number about 30 million.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people

Kurds (30 million) don't have a state, but Albanians (4.4 million) want to have two states.

And things are complex.

These days Turkish Prime Ministar Erdogan said:

"Turkey is Kosovo, Kosovo is Turkey"

http://english.sabah.com.tr/National/2013/10/24/pm-erdogan-kosovo-is-turkey

http://theremustbejustice.wordpress.com/2013/10/25/turkeys-erdogan-in-serbian-kosovo-this-is-turkey/

Leader of the Freedom Party of Austria (FPO) Heinz-Christian Strache (regarding the statement by Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan):

“His territorial pretensions in Europe are a step away from the restoration of the Ottoman Empire that [Recep Tayyip] Erdogan wants, ” he stressed in a statement.

http://inserbia.info/news/2013/10/k...h-new-ottoman-empire-heinz-christian-strache/

Turkey, Strache recalled, is not part of Europe and only one, most minimal part in southeast belongs to Turkey.

“We fought for this several centuries ago, and it will always remain like this. At first Erdogan undermined European societies with a mass of its citizens, who he calls ”his soldiers”, and now he openly expresses territorial pretensions in a sovereign European country – Serbia. This is absolutely unacceptable,” pointed out Strache.

 

[albanopolis]

Turkey is projected to reach 100 mil souls in the few coming decades. It has modernised and improved its university's to admirable levels, its industrial base modernising. It will be a formidable power in two decades. Austria, Serbia, Greece taken together are and will be no match to Turkey. Turkey has Europe by balls. All important gas and oil pipelines cross Turkey, and important energy reserves are in turkic countries. So, don't be surprised if Turks come back, where they have been before. I agree with you that should not be two Albanians states, or could be a third one in the near future. It shuld be one, a unified state.

 

[Ike]

Like Albanians would let Kosovars in. Why should they? They have independent,functional, internationally recognized state. Kosovo, on the other hand, has a history of wars, murder, blood revenge, drug smuggling, human trafficking, organ theft, no industry, no budget, etc. It's obvious that crucial problems with Serbia are not sorted out, and that other states in the region are interested in territory of Kosovo. Annexation of Kosovo could only bring their economy down, and impending war on their territory. Ney, I would think thrice before am adventure like that.

 

[kamani]

Kosovo, on the other hand, has a history of wars, murder, blood revenge, drug smuggling, human trafficking, organ theft, no industry, no budget, etc.

You guys have some nerve to still bad-mouth Kosovo, after all Serbia did over there...
Albania and Kosovo uniting is just nonsense for many practical reasons. I see more an extreme economical tie, like US and Canada.

 

[Ike]

You mean after all that that Muslims did in Kosovo for the last couple of centuries?

 

[Garrick]

Turkey is projected to reach 100 mil souls in the few coming decades. It has modernised and improved its university's to admirable levels, its industrial base modernising. It will be a formidable power in two decades. Austria, Serbia, Greece taken together are and will be no match to Turkey. Turkey has Europe by balls. All important gas and oil pipelines cross Turkey, and important energy reserves are in turkic countries. So, don't be surprised if Turks come back, where they have been before. I agree with you that should not be two Albanians states, or could be a third one in the near future. It shuld be one, a unified state.

Yes, Albanians and Turks are fraternal allies of the Muslim faith, for centuries in the Ottoman empire and after and now.

Turks made large-scale ethnic cleansing of Serbs of Kosovo and Metohija and other Serbian regions in 17th and 18th centuries. In First great Serbs migration Turks expelled 37,000 Serbian families which is at least 185,000 peoples and 360 villages have been completely deserted. Even Emile Picot concluded that it was 35,000 to 40,000 families, between 400,000 and 500,000 people but Serbian Academy of Arts and Sciences, supports the figure of 37,000 families.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Serb_Migrations

After Turks made ethnic cleansing of Serbs Albanians as Turkish allies began to arrive in Kosovo and Metohija.

Yes Serbs were Austrian and Hungarian allies. Yes, I believe today Austria, Hungary, Serbia and Greece are in good relations and they have power greater than Turkey. You should not forget that Turkey didn't solve Kurdish issues, and the Kurds (unlike Kosovo Albanians) have a grounds to demand independence. Kurds are big nation (30,000,000 people) and they have much more rights to have a state than Albanians (4,400,000) who wants two, or three or more states (Albania, Kosovo, Illyrida, etc.).

 

[kamani]

Turks made life hard for the christian population which was Serbs, orthodox Albanians, catholic Albanians etc. There are more records of Albanian revolts in 17-18th century in Kosovo against the turks than there are of Serbian revolts, so it is vague as to who was the majority. A lot of the displaced were christian Albanians that could not live under ottoman rule and now are Serbs (proof: 20% E-v13 in Serbia).
And since when it is ok to unleash the military on civilian Kosovars because of what the turks might have done to your ancestors in the 17 century !?

 

[albanopolis]

Of course Kurds have the right of their own state, but they are not fighting for it. Nobody gives you freedom if you don't fight for it. Kosovo fought repeatedly against Serb colonialism and finally won. Kurds are not doing it. Have you seen the mass graves in Kosovo? Serbs are the builders of them.

 

[Garrick]

Turks made life hard for the christian population which was Serbs, orthodox Albanians, catholic Albanians etc. There are more records of Albanian revolts in 17-18th century in Kosovo against the turks than there are of Serbian revolts, so it is vague as to who was the majority. A lot of the displaced were christian Albanians that could not live under ottoman rule and now are Serbs (proof: 20% E-v13 in Serbia).
And since when it is ok to unleash the military on civilian Kosovars because of what the turks might have done to your ancestors in the 17 century !?

Basically, between Serbian and Albanian Christians were not a significant disputes. And today Serbs marry Albanian women (from Albania) who are Christian (Catholic or Orthodox Christian). But no Muslim Albanian women, because Islam forbids Muslim woman to marry a non-Muslim.

The problem of Serbs and Albanians overwhelmingly is religious, not national: Serbs are almost all Christians (mostly Orthodox and Protestants), Albanians are mostly Sunny Muslims. For example when the Turkish prime minister says “Turkey is Kosovo” and Albanians are supported him, in essence, he certainly has in his head new Balkan neo-Ottoman order, and refers to the religious brotherhood of Turks and Albanians, the brotherhood of faith.

According to the Qur'an all Muslims belong to one community Ummah. Muslims belong Ummah and have an obligation to each other even if do not know each other and live on the two ends of the world. Although, for example, an Albanian Muslim and a Christian Serb years good buddy, tomorrow to experience a Muslim Turk, whom the Albanian had never seen in his life, he has to stand on side of the Turk against fellow Serb, from which a lifetime mate. Simply by required a Muslim religious rules. Greeks, Serbs, Hungarians and other nations well acquainted Muslim rules and laws (Shari’ah) during the reign of Ottoman Empire.

 

[Ike]

Turks made life hard for the christian population which was Serbs, orthodox Albanians, catholic Albanians etc. There are more records of Albanian revolts in 17-18th century in Kosovo against the turks than there are of Serbian revolts, so it is vague as to who was the majority. A lot of the displaced were christian Albanians that could not live under ottoman rule and now are Serbs (proof: 20% E-v13 in Serbia).
And since when it is ok to unleash the military on civilian Kosovars because of what the turks might have done to your ancestors in the 17 century !?

1. Albanians are mix of many HG's. There is a lot of R1a, R1b, I and J, especially on the Albanian plains. Those territories have been inhabited by Phoenicians and Illyrians. A lot of tribes passed through there, Thracian, Celtic, Doric, Macedonian... During medieval times House of Anjou held territories of Albania, which was a gathering point for crusaders coming from Sardinia, Corsica, Naples or through Italy. High percentage of E-V13 among Albanian speakers is pure coincidence, and it is ridiculous to call E-V13 an Albanian marker. FWIW, there is still no evidence that E-V13 has been on Balkans before Turks.

2. Civilians ? Indeed nice civilians I guess every European country would like civilians like this to cross their borders?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cczXklpCo4

 

[Duo]

The argument that Kosovo is part of Serbia or that Kosovo was part of Albania is one that has no end, going back to the origins of the indigenous population in the ancient Balkans. It is pointless to continue on like this. 60 years after WWII, France and Germany, once despised enemies are now the forefront of the European Union and the engine of it's economy, and although that partnership has seen better days, it is still proof that European integration towards a common good can look beyond previous animosities. The atrocities that were committed in post 90s Yugoslavia should not be forgotten, and Serbia bears a great deal of responsibility in this regard, but they should not be an anchor that ties down the people of the Balkans from moving forward with the tide of change, progress, and integration. Slovenia and Crotia are already leaving the rest behind; it is time for the other south-western Balkan countries to shape up, stop using old excuses, and push forward for a better future for their people. This thread serves no purpose and is obsolete. I have met countless young people from the former soviet republics away from their native land, and I am glad to say that they get along splendidly; it is only those still stuck in old nationalistic mindsets that continue to drag this on forever.