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Thread: Auvergne genetic history

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    Auvergne genetic history

    Reading the 2009 paper from Ramos-luis and other papers, I find it puzzling that there is a lack of I* marker in central France, basically Cavennes mountain ranges.

    the paper only tested 89 people for the following marker
    R1b -M269 , 28 = 31.46%
    R1b-U152 , 15 = 16.84%
    R1b-U106 , 3 = 3.37%
    R1b-sry2627, 1 = 1.12%

    E-M81 , 5 = 5.62%
    E-M78 , 3 = 3.37%
    E1b1b , 2 = 2.25%
    E-M123 , 1 = 1.12%

    J1 , 3 = 3.37%
    J2 , 7 = 7.87%

    G* , 8 = 9.0%

    T1-M70 , 3 = 3.37%
    K , 1 = 1.12% .............found to be T-M184 ( xM70)

    R1a , 5 = 5.62%

    and finally I* , 4 = 4.5%

    The area was dominated by the Arverni tribe ( gallic) and its eastern neighbours the Sequani tribe ( a celtic-helvetic mix)

    Why the lack of I marker is the issue, was this central european, "germanic"/ gothic /Burgundian marker avoiding the mountains of Auvergne?
    - Is the E, J, T and G markers neolithic and another mountain range was sought as a haven in ancient times?
    - We clearly see the 58% of R1b is the majority, a clear mix gallic-helvetic-liguri peoples (celts?)

    Did the burgundians who ruled the area later really have I marker in their East-Germanic origins?
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Wow, even in Auvergne frequencies, the alpine Gallic marker u152 is important, affecting some 15% of males; very interesting Sile!

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    So the most frequent hg is, obviously, the R1b mutation with P312/S116 encompassing about 3/10 males and u152, which is downstream of P312 comes in at 15% of French males from Auvergne.

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    Wow; an excellent representation of France: 60%(!) of males belong to R1b; France is a predominantly Celtic nation in terms of Y-DNA. Other countries with notably high R1b frequencies are Wales (90%), Ireland (85!%), England (75%), Spain (75%) Holland and Belgium have (65%) R1b and Switzerland, Italy and Germany come in with 50% R1b.

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    @ Sile;

    Can you post a link (PDF or something else) for the Ramos-Luis 2009 study;
    I have only seen the figures never the study; would be good;

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    @ Sile;

    Can you post a link (PDF or something else) for the Ramos-Luis 2009 study;
    I have only seen the figures never the study; would be good;
    Are you talking about all his french study , attached is all of france DNA or ?



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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Are you talking about all his french study , attached is all of france DNA or ?

    Uploaded with ImageShack.us
    Yes the 2009 study;

    I only got this;
    http://secher.bernard.free.fr/DNA/Ra...YDNA.pdf#Rfig1

    But i was told that thats not the complete study and i only saw the exact Y-DNA figures posted but never the full study of it; But thanks for posting the chart;

    Seems like Larmuseau et al 2012 used the same samples (and got the same figures) from Ramos-Luis 2009;

    Larmuseau et al 2012

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    just some remarks:
    WE LACK BIG SAMPLES EVERYWHERE OR ALMOST SO THE MINOR HGs ARE NOT RELIABLE ENOUGH
    Y-R1B in France reaches is higher %s on the Atlantic fringes, the most in Basque country and then in Brittany -
    the alpine U152 seems more dense in E-Brittany than in W-Brittany, and it is very slight in Basque C.
    the E1b-M81 northafrican is very high in Auvergne: not too surprised: it is old in W-Europe
    don not confuse Auvergne with Forez, mountainous part of Lyonnais, this last province more occupied by Burgundians than Auvergne - anthropology (physical) seems showing a bit of 'dinaroid' (some Y-I2?) strain in eastern and southern parts of Auvergne (in reality: Rouergue) when the northern parts are dominated by 'alpine' type (perhaps local females of Alps put in move by the celtic Y-R-U152 (and P312) males??? (if these ones were not 'alpinelike themselves', I don't know yet)
    the Y-G input is evidently from the Languedocian Cardial, but maybe also from the Alps (but I doubt the majority of Y-G from the Alps followed this "alpine migration" well reported in all France just before bronze Age and during Bronze and Iron Age under celtic control - we see the 'alpine' type progression in France westwards at Iron Age (La Tène) until the Brittany coasts, more evident on the female side than on the male one in Brittany! I recall R-U152 seems (to scarce sample) strong enough in some parts of Poitou (the 'alpine' types were more evident in W-POitou than in E-POitou-Charentes in XX°C. but History moves!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    just some remarks:
    WE LACK BIG SAMPLES EVERYWHERE OR ALMOST SO THE MINOR HGs ARE NOT RELIABLE ENOUGH
    Y-R1B in France reaches is higher %s on the Atlantic fringes, the most in Basque country and then in Brittany -
    the alpine U152 seems more dense in E-Brittany than in W-Brittany, and it is very slight in Basque C.
    the E1b-M81 northafrican is very high in Auvergne: not too surprised: it is old in W-Europe
    don not confuse Auvergne with Forez, mountainous part of Lyonnais, this last province more occupied by Burgundians than Auvergne - anthropology (physical) seems showing a bit of 'dinaroid' (some Y-I2?) strain in eastern and southern parts of Auvergne (in reality: Rouergue) when the northern parts are dominated by 'alpine' type (perhaps local females of Alps put in move by the celtic Y-R-U152 (and P312) males??? (if these ones were not 'alpinelike themselves', I don't know yet)
    the Y-G input is evidently from the Languedocian Cardial, but maybe also from the Alps (but I doubt the majority of Y-G from the Alps followed this "alpine migration" well reported in all France just before bronze Age and during Bronze and Iron Age under celtic control - we see the 'alpine' type progression in France westwards at Iron Age (La Tène) until the Brittany coasts, more evident on the female side than on the male one in Brittany! I recall R-U152 seems (to scarce sample) strong enough in some parts of Poitou (the 'alpine' types were more evident in W-POitou than in E-POitou-Charentes in XX°C. but History moves!)
    In terms of autosomal DNA, I think the fact that the only public sample, and therefore the only one used in the calculators is from the Lyonnais may skew results for people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Yes the 2009 study;

    I only got this;
    http://secher.bernard.free.fr/DNA/Ra...YDNA.pdf#Rfig1

    But i was told that thats not the complete study and i only saw the exact Y-DNA figures posted but never the full study of it; But thanks for posting the chart;

    Seems like Larmuseau et al 2012 used the same samples (and got the same figures) from Ramos-Luis 2009;

    Larmuseau et al 2012
    Thats the best you will get due to the fact the french "gov'nt" are still holding it and its being updated by only one of the testers named Sanchez, I will get you her response.
    The test is only based on french surnames with proven french grandparents. Which is why samples are low.

    There are many other tests that sit off this one like
    http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v109/n2/full/hdy201217a.html?WT.mc_id=FBK_NPG

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_France
    see genetics at bottom of page

    http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.co...-09/1283806841

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Thats the best you will get due to the fact the french "gov'nt" are still holding it and its being updated by oly one of the testers named Sanchez, I will get you ghere respone.
    The test is only based on french surnames with proven french grandparents. Which is why samples are low.

    There are many other tests that sit of this one like
    http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v109/n2/full/hdy201217a.html?WT.mc_id=FBK_NPG

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_France
    see genetics at bottom of page

    http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.co...-09/1283806841
    My interest is purely only the T marker , which is 5% in Alsace and 3.37% plus 1.12% K ( which is found to be T-M184 and not T1-M70) in Auvergne.
    I do not know what other articles Maciano holds for France in respect for his percentage data and also haplo maps

    Maciano must hold other data as the test states brittany at 13.5% of I marker while he shows only 8% on his site

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Interesting to note how low percentage the Germanic subclade (U106) is found in french samples, found only in about 8% of men from both Nord-Pas-De-Calais and the Ile De France region. The P312 subclade of R1b, the Celtiberian marker (highest frequencies in Spain/Portugal/France exclusively.) is found in 27.47% of men from Ile de France and about 28% of males from Nord pas de Calais. The downstream u152 mutation (gallo-italic marker) is found in roughly 15% of men from Ile de France and 17.65% (almost 20%) of males from Nord pas de Calais. Now considering that Nord pas de Calais is an extreme north-central region of France bordering Belgium, this makes sense as Belgium, just like Switzerland, were Gallic colonies. In fact, this 20% coat should continue well into the capital region of Belgium. Much of east-central France must have similar (20%) frequencies as well. This would continue towards Switzerland where there would be an extreme intensification of frequencies. 50% of Swiss males are R1b-u152+. These frequencies continue into the Po valley of northern Italy, in areas like Cuneo and Brescia, known regions of Gallic invasions, where 50% of males are R1b-u152. These very high frequencies continue into the Tuscan basin, where in the entire province, 40% of men are R1b-u152. There are peaks in "La Garfagnana" region and Pistoia are where as many as 70% of males adhere to the R1b haplogroup. This is NOT reflective of the southern portion of the peninsula, where R1b-u152 frequencies, and R1b in general, are from low to very low depending on the region.
    Last edited by adamo; 22-09-13 at 04:03.

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    So the dominant subclade, as I had assumed, is R1b P312 in it's most basal form, then another large number of males belong to R1b-u152, who's father is R1b-P312/S116. So, on a national level, the majority of French males belong to R1b-P312 or one of it's younger sub-groups; very few belong to U-106.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    Interesting to note how low percentage the Germanic subclade (U106) is found in french samples, found only in about 8% of men from both Nord-Pas-De-Calais and the Ile De France region. The P312 subclade of R1b, the Celtiberian marker (highest frequencies in Spain/Portugal/France exclusively.) is found in 27.47% of men from Ile de France and about 28% of males from Nord pas de Calais. The downstream u152 mutation (gallo-italic marker) is found in roughly 15% of men from Ile de France and 17.65% (almost 20%) of males from Nord pas de Calais. Now considering that Nord pas de Calais is an extreme north-central region of France bordering Belgium, this makes sense as Belgium, just like Switzerland, where Gallic colonies. In fact, this 20% coat should continue well into the capital region of Belgium. Much of east-central France must have similar (20%) frequencies as well. This would continue towards Switzerland where there would be an extreme intensification of frequencies. 50% of Swiss males are R1b-u152+. These frequencies continue into the Po valley of northern Italy, in areas like Cuneo and Brescia, known regions of Gallic invasions, where 50% of males are R1b-u152. These very high frequencies continue into the Tuscan basin, where in the entire province, 40% of men are R1b-u152. There are peaks in "La Garfagnana" region and Pistoia are where as many as 70% of males adhere to the R1b haplogroup. This is NOT reflective of the southern portion of the peninsula, where R1b-u152 frequencies, and R1b in general, are from low to very low depending on the region.
    clearly these people claiming R1b-U152 is celtic-italic-germanic are clearly wrong. I would replace germanic with gallic or even iberic before calling it Germanic

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    Well R1b u-152 is found in about 15% of southern German males and 10% of west German males; those are Germany's highest regional frequencies; no. R1b u152 does not have a German center of gravitation. It's seems to be a Gallic marker. Now, in what concerns Italy, in the historical sense, we know of many migrations from France to Italy ( ancient arverni, senones,lingones,aedui, ambarri, aulerci,cenomani, possibly Veneti, Bituriges maybe the Volcae, Parisii, Treveri, Helvetii, carnutes all these people arrived to Italy either via France or subsequently to Switzerland then from the Swiss basin across the alps into the Po valley settlement areas. Others, like the Boii clearly arrived from the German/Czech border (Bohemia) yet more, like the Lombards, arrived from Sweden (Scandinavia) and the Ambrones settled north-Italy from Denmark.

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    You can then contrast this with southern Italy, intense Ancient Greek colonization of Calabria and Sicily, parts of Apulia, coastal Campania, The Iapygian civilization arriving from the island of Crete to Apulia, Ancient Lucanians tribes of Basilicata and their Bruti/Morgetes Calabrian offshoots later re-acquired by the Ottoman Byzantines, the oscans where probably a rich blend of Continental Latin and Greek colonizer genetics. They would have implemented Herculanean mythology that would have been romanized.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    Well R1b u-152 is found in about 15% of southern German males and 10% of west German males; those are Germany's highest regional frequencies; no. R1b u152 does not have a German center of gravitation. It's seems to be a Gallic marker. Now, in what concerns Italy, in the historical sense, we know of many migrations from France to Italy ( ancient arverni, senones,lingones,aedui, ambarri, aulerci,cenomani, possibly Veneti, Bituriges maybe the Volcae, Parisii, Treveri, Helvetii, carnutes all these people arrived to Italy either via France or subsequently to Switzerland then from the Swiss basin across the alps into the Po valley settlement areas. Others, like the Boii clearly arrived from the German/Czech border (Bohemia) yet more, like the Lombards, arrived from Sweden (Scandinavia) and the Ambrones settled north-Italy from Denmark.
    southern German people where the last to become German. IIRC I read somewhere they have only been German for 1600 Years i include Austrians as they where initially Bavarian. The name Austria ( austrians) first appear in 998AD

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    Interesting is the contrast between Midi-Pyrenees (Toulouse) and Auvergne (Clermont-Ferrand) in Ramos-Luis et al 2009;

    Midi-Pyrenees (Toulouse) 67 samples = 7.4% R1b-SRY2627 [Iberian] / 13.4% R1b-U152 [Keltic Gaul]
    Auvergne (Clermont-Ferrand) 89 samples = 1.1% R1b-SRY2627 [Iberian] / 16.8% R1b-U152 [Keltic Gaul]

    Henri Hubert - The Rise of the Celts (1934)
    On the other side the Iberians established themselves in force between the Pyrenees and the Garonne. Eliberre (Auch), Hungunverro, between Toulouse and Auch, and Cedagurris, between Toulouse and Saint-Bertrand, were Iberian towns, as were Elusa (Eauze), Iluro (Oloron), Tolosa (Toulouse), and Carcaso (Carcassonne).

    West of the Garonne (incl. Toulouse) was non-Indo-European Iberian and Aquitani; However in the 3rd cen BC Toulouse (Tolosa) was conquered by the Indo-European Volcae (Keltic Gauls);

    On the other hand, the area between the Garonne and Loire was Indo-European Keltic (Gauls); Clermont (ancient Nemossus) was the Metropolis of the Indo-European Arverni (Keltic Gauls);

    Strabo - Book IV
    The Arverni are situated on the Liger, their metropolis is Nemossus, a city situated on the Liger......the Arverni not only had extended their empire as far as Narbo and the boundaries of Massiliotis, but they were also masters of the tribes as far as the Pyrenees, and as far as the ocean and the Rhenus.

    Based upon these Historical grounds it is revealing why R1b-U152 is in modern-days substantially high in Toulouse (Volcae) and even higher in Clermont (Arverni metropolis) - whereas R1b-SRY2627 is only substantially present in Toulouse (orig. Iberian settlement) but only very minimal (1.1%) in Clermont;

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Interesting is the contrast between Midi-Pyrenees (Toulouse) and Auvergne (Clermont-Ferrand) in Ramos-Luis et al 2009;

    Midi-Pyrenees (Toulouse) 67 samples = 7.4% R1b-SRY2627 [Iberian] / 13.4% R1b-U152 [Keltic Gaul]
    Auvergne (Clermont-Ferrand) 89 samples = 1.1% R1b-SRY2627 [Iberian] / 16.8% R1b-U152 [Keltic Gaul]

    Henri Hubert - The Rise of the Celts (1934)
    On the other side the Iberians established themselves in force between the Pyrenees and the Garonne. Eliberre (Auch), Hungunverro, between Toulouse and Auch, and Cedagurris, between Toulouse and Saint-Bertrand, were Iberian towns, as were Elusa (Eauze), Iluro (Oloron), Tolosa (Toulouse), and Carcaso (Carcassonne).

    West of the Garonne (incl. Toulouse) was non-Indo-European Iberian and Aquitani; However in the 3rd cen BC Toulouse (Tolosa) was conquered by the Indo-European Volcae (Keltic Gauls);

    On the other hand, the area between the Garonne and Loire was Indo-European Keltic (Gauls); Clermont (ancient Nemossus) was the Metropolis of the Indo-European Arverni (Keltic Gauls);

    Strabo - Book IV
    The Arverni are situated on the Liger, their metropolis is Nemossus, a city situated on the Liger......the Arverni not only had extended their empire as far as Narbo and the boundaries of Massiliotis, but they were also masters of the tribes as far as the Pyrenees, and as far as the ocean and the Rhenus.

    Based upon these Historical grounds it is revealing why R1b-U152 is in modern-days substantially high in Toulouse (Volcae) and even higher in Clermont (Arverni metropolis) - whereas R1b-SRY2627 is only substantially present in Toulouse (orig. Iberian settlement) but only very minimal (1.1%) in Clermont;
    since the cenomanni where neighbours of the volcae, before cenomanni went to italy, would they be involved in your theory?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    since the cenomanni where neighbours of the volcae, before cenomanni went to italy, would they be involved in your theory?
    No;
    They have too much of an obscure ending and disappearance in order to associate or have any importance with modern-day populations in North Italy Po Valley;

    The Indo-European Umbrians most notably the Insubres of the Urnfield-Golasecca and the Indo-European Veneti of the Urnfield-Este are def. the main source for the high levels of R1b-U152 in the modern-day Po Valley pops.

    Keeping in mind that in the broader Indo-European context the Umbrians were akin to the proto-Kelts and both also shared a common linguistic root within the Indo-European family;

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    I've always wondered about Italy's Volscian people...you know, Volcae in southern France, Volcae in southern Germany....I mean how suspicious is it that that there was a tribe in western France called Veneti and one of Italy's most famous provinces is called Veneto. Why is Parisi a common italian surname today, and also the name of the tribe that would found the capital of modern day France?

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    Personally, I don't think it's just by chance, considering the overwhelming historical evidence cited by reputed historians like Livy who spoke of multiple invasions by notable Gauls and their armies such as Brennus, Bellovesus etc. movements/migrations across the alps separated at times by hundreds or thousands of years.

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    @ Sile

    I have looked into the sources again and mea culpa you seem to be right about the Cenomani;

    Sir William Smith - Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography: Vol.I (1854)
    Thus, during the great Gaulish war in B.C. 225, when the Boii and Insubres took up arms against Rome, the Cenomani, as well as their neighbours the Veneti, concluded an alliance with the republic, and the two nations together furnished a force of 20,000 men, with which they threatened the frontier of the Insubres. (Pol. 2.23, 24, 32; Strab. v. p.216.) Even when Hannibal invaded Cisalpine Gaul they continued faithful to the Romans, and furnished a body of auxiliaries, who fought with them at the battle of the Trebia. (Liv. 21.55.) After the close of the Second Punic War, however, they took part in the revolt of the Gauls under Hamilcar (B.C. 200), and again a few years later joined their arms with those of the Insubres: but even then the defection seems to have been but partial, and after their defeat by the consul C. Cornelius (B.C. 197), they hastened to submit, and thenceforth continued faithful allies of the Romans. (Liv. 31.10, 32.30, 39.3.) From this time they disappear from history, and became gradually merged in the condition of Roman subjects, until in B.C. 49 they acquired, with the rest of the Transpadane Gauls, the full rights of Roman citizens. (Dion. Cass. xli. 36.)

    and also this:

    Cicero - Cic. Balb. 14.31 - 56 BC
    Etenim quaedam foedera exstant, ut Cenomanorum, Insubrium, Helvetiorum, Iapydum, non nullorum item ex Gallia barbarorum, quorum in foederibus exceptum est ne quis eorum a nobis civis recipiatur.
    But there are in existence certain treaties, such as those with the Cenomani, Insubres, Helvetii and Iapudes, and also with some of the barbarians in Gaul, and in these treaties there is a saving clause that none of their people may be admitted by us to citizenship.

    I was wrong;
    The Cenomani did not fade into obscure oblivia - in fact they remained in the Po Valley (Transpadana) as Roman allies and had the same treaties in 56 BC (the Latin rights) as the Insubres did; Seven years later (49 BC) all the people of Cisalpine Gaul Cenomani and Insubres were granted the Roman Citizenship by Julius Caesar;

    This means of course that the Cenomani [Iron-age LaTene Gauls] most def. had an impact on the modern-day pop. of the Po Valley (heritage) - equal to the Insubres (Umbrians); The chief-town of the Cenomani as recorded by Livius was Brixia modern-day Brescia;

    Boattini et al 2013 tested 39 samples from Brescia and 51.2% (20 samples) were R1b-U152;

  24. #24
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    @ Sile

    I have looked into the sources again and mea culpa you seem to be right about the Cenomani;

    Sir William Smith - Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography: Vol.I (1854)
    Thus, during the great Gaulish war in B.C. 225, when the Boii and Insubres took up arms against Rome, the Cenomani, as well as their neighbours the Veneti, concluded an alliance with the republic, and the two nations together furnished a force of 20,000 men, with which they threatened the frontier of the Insubres. (Pol. 2.23, 24, 32; Strab. v. p.216.) Even when Hannibal invaded Cisalpine Gaul they continued faithful to the Romans, and furnished a body of auxiliaries, who fought with them at the battle of the Trebia. (Liv. 21.55.) After the close of the Second Punic War, however, they took part in the revolt of the Gauls under Hamilcar (B.C. 200), and again a few years later joined their arms with those of the Insubres: but even then the defection seems to have been but partial, and after their defeat by the consul C. Cornelius (B.C. 197), they hastened to submit, and thenceforth continued faithful allies of the Romans. (Liv. 31.10, 32.30, 39.3.) From this time they disappear from history, and became gradually merged in the condition of Roman subjects, until in B.C. 49 they acquired, with the rest of the Transpadane Gauls, the full rights of Roman citizens. (Dion. Cass. xli. 36.)

    and also this:

    Cicero - Cic. Balb. 14.31 - 56 BC
    Etenim quaedam foedera exstant, ut Cenomanorum, Insubrium, Helvetiorum, Iapydum, non nullorum item ex Gallia barbarorum, quorum in foederibus exceptum est ne quis eorum a nobis civis recipiatur.
    But there are in existence certain treaties, such as those with the Cenomani, Insubres, Helvetii and Iapudes, and also with some of the barbarians in Gaul, and in these treaties there is a saving clause that none of their people may be admitted by us to citizenship.

    I was wrong;
    The Cenomani did not fade into obscure oblivia - in fact they remained in the Po Valley (Transpadana) as Roman allies and had the same treaties in 56 BC (the Latin rights) as the Insubres did; Seven years later (49 BC) all the people of Cisalpine Gaul Cenomani and Insubres were granted the Roman Citizenship by Julius Caesar;

    This means of course that the Cenomani [Iron-age LaTene Gauls] most def. had an impact on the modern-day pop. of the Po Valley (heritage) - equal to the Insubres (Umbrians); The chief-town of the Cenomani as recorded by Livius was Brixia modern-day Brescia;

    Boattini et al 2013 tested 39 samples from Brescia and 51.2% (20 samples) were R1b-U152;
    I asked about the cenomani in relation with your comments regarding avergne , that is the connection with the Volcae as the Cenomani where neighbours of the volcae in southern France before travelling to the area of Verona, Brescia and Cremona ( that's where modern Italian historians place them )

    On the other hand, if the tradition recorded by Cato (in Pliny, Nat. Hist. iii. 19. s. 23) is true, that the Cenomani formed a settlement near Massilia (modern Marseille), among the Volcae, this could indicate a route that the Cenomani took to Cisalpine Gaul in Italy. According to Livy, the Cenomani of Cisalpine Gaul arrived after the expedition of Bellovesus, led by Helitovius, and are credited with the foundation of Brixia, or Brescia.

    We must not confuse these with the ancient Euganei ( Rhaetian?) before they got absorbed by the migrating Veneti starting from 1100BC or before.
    The Alpine tribes of the Camunni and the Triumpilini, which bordered on them on the north, are expressly described by Pliny as of Euganean race, and were not therefore nationally connected with the Cenomani, though in his time at least united with them for administrative purposes.
    The main tribe of these Euganei are the Stoni tribe
    They were very probably a Pre-Indo-European people, ethnically related with the Ingauni, as proved by the similarity of the names. According to Pliny the Elder the Stoni people from Trentino were of the same stock as the Euganei.

    Cato the Elder, in the lost book of Origines, counted among the major tribes Euganeans the Triumplini of Valtrompia and the Camunni of Val Camonica.[2]
    According to Livy they were defeated by the Adriatic Veneti and the Trojans

  25. #25
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Reading the 2009 paper from Ramos-luis and other papers, I find it puzzling that there is a lack of I* marker in central France, basically Cavennes mountain ranges.

    the paper only tested 89 people for the following marker
    R1b -M269 , 28 = 31.46%
    R1b-U152 , 15 = 16.84%
    R1b-U106 , 3 = 3.37%
    R1b-sry2627, 1 = 1.12%

    E-M81 , 5 = 5.62%
    E-M78 , 3 = 3.37%
    E1b1b , 2 = 2.25%
    E-M123 , 1 = 1.12%

    J1 , 3 = 3.37%
    J2 , 7 = 7.87%

    G* , 8 = 9.0%

    T1-M70 , 3 = 3.37%
    K , 1 = 1.12% .............found to be T-M184 ( xM70)

    R1a , 5 = 5.62%

    and finally I* , 4 = 4.5%

    The area was dominated by the Arverni tribe ( gallic) and its eastern neighbours the Sequani tribe ( a celtic-helvetic mix)

    Why the lack of I marker is the issue, was this central european, "germanic"/ gothic /Burgundian marker avoiding the mountains of Auvergne?
    - Is the E, J, T and G markers neolithic and another mountain range was sought as a haven in ancient times?
    - We clearly see the 58% of R1b is the majority, a clear mix gallic-helvetic-liguri peoples (celts?)

    Did the burgundians who ruled the area later really have I marker in their East-Germanic origins?
    with U106 at 3,37%, I*(xI2a2) 3,37% and R1a 5,6% considering this I* has a a lot of chances to be overall Y-I1,(Maciamo gives 2% for Auvergne) we can say, proposing Burgundians were Eastern germanics (in Norway, R1b, R1a and I1 are at similar levels, but less R1a in Sweden and Denmark, but Goths and cousins in NW Poland could have taken some more R1a), these %s represent well enough this germanic invasion in east-Southeast Gallia for an amount of roughly 12% of Germanics there - reasonable bet

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